Man, even when you're pushing epic levels an adventurer gets no respect from anybody. Everybody's "worthless mortal" this and "puny human" that and "you gotta wrestle me, big man" or "do me a favor and we'll talk". There's going to be very few groups that get through this adventure without losing their patience and punching some demon lords.
At least Charon only wanted an apology.
Man, even when you're pushing epic levels an adventurer gets no respect from anybody. Everybody's "worthless mortal" this and "puny human" that and "you gotta wrestle me, big man" or "do me a favor and we'll talk". There's going to be very few groups that get through this adventure without losing their patience and punching some demon lords.
At least Charon only wanted an apology.
We should write a gag adventure for retiring epic level characters where their grand reputations and multiply offered chances to ply benevolence within the adventure equal one big 30 page back pat. Like a farewell party one's last day in the office.
"Thank you, oh thank you, magnificent one!"
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Man, even when you're pushing epic levels an adventurer gets no respect from anybody. Everybody's "worthless mortal" this and "puny human" that and "you gotta wrestle me, big man" or "do me a favor and we'll talk". There's going to be very few groups that get through this adventure without losing their patience and punching some demon lords.
At least Charon only wanted an apology.
Who do they think they are, Gwar or something?
I'll hook them all up with a Bigby's B$+&%-slap.
I'm very pleased with this adventure, especially after my disappointment with Wells of Darkness. The powerful NPCs in this one have mostly reasonable demands, and they offer help that is actually useful rather than help that is actually flavor text. They are also mostly respectful of the near-epic PCs, and even though they are more powerful than the PCs the adventure makes it actually sound plausible that the PCs are real figures of power and not just observers while the NPCs do all the real work. I am undecided whether to simply skip or substitute Wells of Darkness entirely or to write a new solution instead, but Enemies of My Enemy looks well-worth running.
I fully expect that many groups will end up attacking Malcanthet. Honestly, she really needs to review her Evil Overlord's Handbook; attacking the people you've been cultivating for assistance the entire time with compulsion and negative energy effects is not a good idea, considering they knew they'd be talking to the Demon Queen of Succubi and really should have cast Magic Circle and Death Ward spells beforehand. Fortunately, unlike Wells of Darkness there are ways to get everything and give Malcanthet no satisfaction for her antics. Even a simple flat DC 20 Sleight of Hand check will let the party rogue run away laughing with her Iron Flask, offering nothing in exchange. The very thought is pleasing.
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I thought it was really, really great. I'm looking forward to running it, and sort of regretting the fact that I'm still on Sea Wyvern's Wake. :)
Well done JJ and the whole Dungeon crew. Of course the only issue is that you'll have to outdo yourself for the big finale. The table is nicely set for it though.
The BIG finale. *sniff*. After that, the magazine is dead. Long live Pathfinder. :)
Gotta say, thanks for the 40+ page adventure. I was concerned that the penultimate adventure would be a bunch of "lip-service" between the PCs and the forces of evil. But there are genuinely excellent encounters, coupled fantastically with the mammoth stat blocks of some of the Abyss' most notorious figures. Grade A all the way!
I think the PCs should just mow through all the evil-doers in the adventure and take all their stuff. Then by the time they get to Demogorgon they'll be so powerful that they'll just walk right over the top of him. Stuff lip service. Kill all the bad guys!!!!
"Do you feel lucky, punk?"
If your 19th-20th level characters think they can defeat 30th level witch queens, fiendish fortresses, demon lords, and Abyssal armies head on... well, I'm sure the new characters you roll up will be fun to play.
A question about loot in this adventure:
On page 78, in Gorgant's treasure, there is listed a +5 sunshield. I could not find this magic item in the DMG; is it a misprint or is it a specific item located elsewhere?
Creative Director
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A question about loot in this adventure:
On page 78, in Gorgant's treasure, there is listed a +5 sunshield. I could not find this magic item in the DMG; is it a misprint or is it a specific item located elsewhere?
It's a misprint. A weird one. In that it probably should have been listed as a +5 blinding shield.
I'm very pleased with this adventure, especially after my disappointment with Wells of Darkness. The powerful NPCs in this one have mostly reasonable demands, and they offer help that is actually useful rather than help that is actually flavor text. They are also mostly respectful of the near-epic PCs, and even though they are more powerful than the PCs the adventure makes it actually sound plausible that the PCs are real figures of power and not just observers while the NPCs do all the real work. I am undecided whether to simply skip or substitute Wells of Darkness entirely or to write a new solution instead, but Enemies of My Enemy looks well-worth running.
Seconded. Although, for the record, I don't blame anybody for the failure of "Wells of Darkness" - it just seems like the almost inevitable weakpoint on the campaign outline. Without the darn-near-undue levels of complication I intend to bring to bear on this adventure, it's basically glorified prep-time for bigger things to come, and makes sense in the larger framework - it's just a little NPC-heavy.
I fully expect that many groups will end up attacking Malcanthet ... Fortunately, unlike Wells of Darkness there are ways to get everything and give Malcanthet no satisfaction for her antics. Even a simple flat DC 20 Sleight of Hand check will let the party rogue run away laughing with her Iron Flask, offering nothing in exchange. The very thought is pleasing.
I have two players in particular I wouldn't put it past to fully suspect Mal's involvement before they get to her (and if they don't, Iggy's big hint will almost certainly clue them in), and one who will jump up and down with joy at the chance to not only slight-of-hand said flask but also lure a demon lord into direct eye contact. The fact that the party won't have much gear on them might be the only thing saving her from a trip to the wells of darkness ... and it might or might not be enough. It will certainly be interesting.
Who do they think they are, Gwar or something?
I'll hook them all up with a Bigby's b&*!@-slap.Watch what you say about The Scum Dogs of the Universe. There are Bohabs in the room. ;)
Man, even when you're pushing epic levels an adventurer gets no respect from anybody. Everybody's "worthless mortal" this and "puny human" that and "you gotta wrestle me, big man" or "do me a favor and we'll talk". There's going to be very few groups that get through this adventure without losing their patience and punching some demon lords.
At least Charon only wanted an apology.
We should write a gag adventure for retiring epic level characters where their grand reputations and multiply offered chances to ply benevolence within the adventure equal one big 30 page back pat. Like a farewell party one's last day in the office.
"Thank you, oh thank you, magnificent one!"
The most syrupy epic level adventure ever will be excellent. We could have archdukes of Hell and demon lords of the Abyss come to their farewell party, all bandaged up from the last time they had their butts handed to them by the PCs. "You...you're sure you're going to retire, right? Just...please don't hurt me anymore. I just want to love."
Even a simple flat DC 20 Sleight of Hand check will let the party rogue run away laughing with her Iron Flask, offering nothing in exchange. The very thought is pleasing.
Umm, did you notice where she was KEEPING that flask? I don't care how good of a Rogue you think you are, that's a risky place to put your hand.
You know, unless you're into that kind of thing.
(An aside. I'm trying to remember what the difference between Malcanthet's potfolio and Grazz't's is. He's seduction and she's lust, right? Or are demon lords allowed to flat out overlap due to the whole chaos angle?)
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Creative Director
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Demons are indeed allowed to overlap on their themes, since those themes are in large part set up by mortal cultists and scholars. Malcanthet's mostly lust and seduction and succubi, while Graz'zt's not as much. He certainly CAN fill that role, but he's more like the smooth-talking evil king/warmonger super-evil politician.
Umm, did you notice where she was KEEPING that flask? I don't care how good of a Rogue you think you are, that's a risky place to put your hand.
You know, unless you're into that kind of thing.
Pshaw! That sort of stunt is exactly why many players choose Rogue PCs in the first place.
Besides, level-twenty skill monkey PCs can hit DC 150 checks fairly easy, depending on the particular skill, as long as they're ready for it when it comes up. That's more than high enough for a full body cavity search, if it becomes necessary. As a free action.
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Besides, level-twenty skill monkey PCs can hit DC 150 checks fairly easy, depending on the particular skill, as long as they're ready for it when it comes up. That's more than high enough for a full body cavity search, if it becomes necessary. As a free action.
DC 150? How could that possibly be beaten by a 20th level?
DC 150? How could that possibly be beaten by a 20th level?
The DC for Sleight of Handing an item from somebody is DC 20, by RAW. There are no notes in the skill description for adjusting this for the target being a demon lord, or the item being fairly secure, or the item being in an inner pocket, but it wouldn't be unfair to impose some ad hoc modifier to the skill check or skill DC based on these factors.
DC 150 is a fairly cheesed-out skill check for a L20 character, but it is entirely within the realms of possibility, and FAR beyond any reasonable ad hoc modification of the Sleight of Hand difficulty in this particular case.
A more reasonable Rogue build could routinely hit DC 60-80 with a Sleight of Hand check, as long as Sleight of Hand is kept maxed, and that's well over what would be a reasonable difficulty modification, considering Malcanthet is really only wearing a thin robe. Unless someone is seriously going to suggest she has the Flask crammed in a very uncomfortable place, it is probably hidden in her arm-chair. In which case, the only real barrier to simply taking it is guessing where it is.
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A more reasonable Rogue build could routinely hit DC 60-80 with a Sleight of Hand check, as long as Sleight of Hand is kept maxed, and that's well over what would be a reasonable difficulty modification, considering Malcanthet is really only wearing a thin robe. Unless someone is seriously going to suggest she has the Flask crammed in a very uncomfortable place, it is probably hidden in her arm-chair. In which case, the only real barrier to simply taking it is guessing where it is.
I still don't see how that could happen, it seems to me that most DC range from 5-40. A 20th rogue with maxed sleight og hand, a colossal dex (+10 bonus for instance), and skill focus (+3) and the synergy from bluff (+2) would have a modifier of 38. Even with a natural 20 he couldn't beat DC 60 (let alone 80 or 150..). And the players handbook p.63 clearly states that a 20 on a skill check does NOT equal automatic success. But then again I rarely play at those kinds of levels, so tell me: How would a 20th rogue beat those ridiculous difficulty classes?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I still don't see how that could happen, it seems to me that most DC range from 5-40. A 20th rogue with maxed sleight og hand, a colossal dex (+10 bonus for instance), and skill focus (+3) and the synergy from bluff (+2) would have a modifier of 38. Even with a natural 20 he couldn't beat DC 60 (let alone 80 or 150..). And the players handbook p.63 clearly states that a 20 on a skill check does NOT equal automatic success. But then again I rarely play at those kinds of levels, so tell me: How would a 20th rogue beat those ridiculous difficulty classes?
I do agree that "routine" DC 60 is unlikely within a normal game, but here's some ways to start getting there, inclkuding many of yours:
23 ranks
+3 for Skill Focus (or +2 for another feaT)
+2 for Bluff synergy
+13 for Dex 36 (starting 20, +5 inherent, +6 item, +5 stat bumps)
+12 for Marshal motivate Dex aura (assuming Cha of 34)
+15 for divine insight (via imbue with spell ability, probably)
= +68 on your roll
These are pretty optimistic assumptions, though. And the divine insight makes it not routine.
Unless someone is seriously going to suggest she has the Flask crammed in a very uncomfortable place, it is probably hidden in her arm-chair.
She does have a flair for the dramatic, but I was given the impression that she was at least trying to make it look like she had in in a rather uncomfortable place. She is the queen of succubi, after all. Who lives in an S&M palace. From something called the Razor Throne.
never forget you can have a +10 Skill (competence) item build for slight of hand for a measly 10k gp....
so we start going for +78....
if the GM allows even stronger items (not that expensive after all).... it does not bear imagining ( I know a warblade who is angling for maxed-out Concentration skill.... "Greater Insightful Strike" can be a true blast if you roll a (D20 +30+)x2 for damage..... and 30 is easy... looking at +40 here )
Perhaps a bard-song "inspire competence" with another +5 ? Although I would be hard-pressed to allow that, let alone not burst out in laughter....
never forget you can have a +10 Skill (competence) item build for slight of hand for a measly 10k gp....
so we start going for +78....
if the GM allows even stronger items (not that expensive after all).... it does not bear imagining ( I know a warblade who is angling for maxed-out Concentration skill.... "Greater Insightful Strike" can be a true blast if you roll a (D20 +30+)x2 for damage..... and 30 is easy... looking at +40 here )
Perhaps a bard-song "inspire competence" with another +5 ? Although I would be hard-pressed to allow that, let alone not burst out in laughter....
"Grope, grope, grope the hidden . . . item . . . "
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Hmm, since the Marshal's aura requires the rogue to see and hear his directions, and given the implied transparency of certain class effects, like a Ranger's increased damage vs. a favored enemy, a paladin's boost from smite evil, a monk's stunning fist, and I would argue the basic effects of the Marshal's aura, I believe Malcanthet would order (or directly suggest) that the Marshal cease his "offensive and rude shouting" before the rogue made any attempts.
Same with the obvious nature of the bard's "inspire competence," as humorously noted above and in Order of the Stick.
Lastly, there's no reason for the party to believe the flask is on her personage until she reveals it, and there is little reason for a GM to ignore Malcanthet's continual use of "fast" Sense Motive checks to ascertain if any moves are being made against her, in which she uses telepathy to summon a trusted servant to invisibly teleport the Flask until she can be assured of the party's reliability.
Woe betide the GM whose party's rogue (or bard) has somehow maxed Bluff & Sleight of Hand, has somehow found a wondrous item crafter with 23 ranks in Bluff & Sleight of Hand to make +23 boosting items, has mental shielding to avoid having his mind read, and has been able to survive the hazards of 20th level "life" with such massive expenditures toward non-combat skills (~100k for the items combined). Of course, if they pull it off, they should be awarded for their tenacity and devotion to these skills, but it's certainly not a sure thing.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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never forget you can have a +10 Skill (competence) item build for slight of hand for a measly 10k gp....
so we start going for +78....
if the GM allows even stronger items (not that expensive after all).... it does not bear imagining ( I know a warblade who is angling for maxed-out Concentration skill.... "Greater Insightful Strike" can be a true blast if you roll a (D20 +30+)x2 for damage..... and 30 is easy... looking at +40 here )
Perhaps a bard-song "inspire competence" with another +5 ? Although I would be hard-pressed to allow that, let alone not burst out in laughter....
I was deliberately not counting any non-existant spells or magic items. Any DM who allows players to create whatever new items they want deserves what they get.
Pulling this thread back on track...this was an excellent installment in the Adventure Path. A definite improvement over "Wells of Darkness" (which feels superfluous to me). Lots of opportunity for combat or roleplaying, depending upon the party's temperment. Great flavor, each demon lord and planar location was distinctive and memorable -- especially Orcus (clearly Malcanthet suffered from the PG-13 rating). And the adventure felt epic -- the most epic adventure in Dungeon since "Kings of the Rift" -- and along with "Serpents of Scuttlecove" it had the most wow moments of any installment so far. Great work from Baur.
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A more reasonable Rogue build could routinely hit DC 60-80 with a Sleight of Hand check, as long as Sleight of Hand is kept maxed, and that's well over what would be a reasonable difficulty modification, considering Malcanthet is really only wearing a thin robe. Unless someone is seriously going to suggest she has the Flask crammed in a very uncomfortable place, it is probably hidden in her arm-chair. In which case, the only real barrier to simply taking it is guessing where it is.
Assuming it's not hidden in an extradimensional space, like a portable hole or a bag of holding.
Nipple rings of holding! firevalkyrie ftw!
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Nipple rings of holding! firevalkyrie ftw!
In any event, since there are two separate goals to the encounter (to acquire the flask AND to establish alliance with Malcanthet), stealing the flask even assuming this is possible and successful would fail the second goal automatically and as the write-up mentions, she'd retreat to Demogorgon's side and make the final encounter that much tougher.
I honestly doubt that Malcanthet would notice or even mind a Sleight of Hand groping of her every nook and cranny. It's more or less stated that is what her throne is doing to her continually anyway. Hell, give your rogue a circumstance bonus on the check for her to notice it isn't her throne doing the trick.;)
I honestly doubt that Malcanthet would notice or even mind a Sleight of Hand groping of her every nook and cranny. It's more or less stated that is what her throne is doing to her continually anyway. Hell, give your rogue a circumstance bonus on the check for her to notice it isn't her throne doing the trick.;)
thanks for that most disturbing image of that demonic "massage chair" ;)
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I honestly doubt that Malcanthet would notice or even mind a Sleight of Hand groping of her every nook and cranny. It's more or less stated that is what her throne is doing to her continually anyway. Hell, give your rogue a circumstance bonus on the check for her to notice it isn't her throne doing the trick.;)thanks for that most disturbing image of that demonic "massage chair" ;)
Actually, that's not as bad as where I first thought he was going with that comment....
LOL Gives new meaning to the "Magic Fingers!"
LOL Gives new meaning to the "Magic Fingers!"
Also, new meaning to "Hand of Glory" ;p