RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I'm sure most of you are familiar with the 'wounding' property that can be bestowed upon weapons. It states that every successful attack deals 1 point of Constitution damage in addition to the normal damage for the attack.
Personally, for only a +2 market modifier, I feel that this is VASTLY overpowered. The Constitution damage does not allow a save to negate. It also effectively limits a creature to only surviving as many hits as it has CON, regardless of hit points (since 0 CON = dead). Every two points of CON damage also equates to a loss of hit points equal to 2 x HD. Combine wounding weapons with a TWF and haste, all of which is easily available by level 8 or so, and you've got a nightmare on your hands! Now, certainly, undead and constructs are immune to ability damage but if you make all your combats involve these types of foes, the players who spent the gold on wounding weapons are going to be a little peeved.
To me, 'wounding' sounds like an ability which should cause bleed damage. For every successful hit that deals damage, a wounding weapon deals an additional 1 damage per round thereafter until a DC 12 Heal check is applied, the creature benefits from 1 point of magical healing, or the creature regains at least 1 hit point from fast healing or regeneration.
Have any others had problems with wounding weapons? Do you agree that CON damage with no save is a bit overkill? Do you think that they are just fine as written? I'm interested to see what experiences other people have had with them. Thanks!
Minor point: Every two point of CON loss equates to only 1 x HD hit points lost.
But aside from that, I agree with your points and think wounding should either cause bleeding (steady hit point loss) or be rated rated higher for item cost.
Minor point: Every two point of CON loss equates to only 1 x HD hit points lost.Right. Duh. I just had the number '2' stuck in my head I think.
I have made this same mistake during play, for pretty much the same reason.
Well, given that the weapon is at minimum a +3 equivalent, I have no particualr issue with it. This is an appropriate weapon for a 11-14th level character? A wizzy gets power word blind @ 13th, and lord only knows what kind of damage a great axe wielding barbarian at this level could pump out with a full attack. Now if the TWF rogue gets 2 wounding daggers and sneak attacks a wizzy while greater invisibilitied... yadda yadda yadda. :)
They're really good (as my experience playing D&D Online showed, they rock in PVP) but they have some flaws.
Big critters. Creatures with Con over 20, often have the ability to kill you dead with a lot less than the 20+ hits you need to kill them dead back.
Raw damage output. Sure, when the red dragon takes 40 points of "extra" damage because his con went down, thats impressive. But the fighter used the "+3" you all got to put frost burst and keen on his. Even without the 1.5 damage against Big Red, he's adding about 8ish points to his average damage per hit now.
Splatbook fun. Spell Compendium has your answer: Sheltered Vitality. Immune to Ability Damage, Ability Drain, Fatigue, and Exhaustion. By the time anyone gets their hands on a Wounding Weapon, everyone else has access to this handy spell.
Regarding your alternate wounding weapon, its nice, but I would never put it above a +1 or maaaaaybe a +2. Even a two weapon fighting hasted rogue can only ever at best add 7 points of damage to his by-round output. Granted, if he keeps hitting, that 7 becomes 14, then 21, then 28, which means over four rounds he just added 60 points of damage. Course, a flaming weapon would have added 28d6 of fire, or an average of 84 points. Since most fights don't last beyond 4 rounds or so, seems about right as a +1.
I agree with the Black Bard. Wounding is a (very) nice +2 ability, but it is by no means broken, and probably not worth +3. Fatespinner's "bleeding" ability would be worth only a +1, IMO.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Okay, so it seems like the general concensus is that wounding is not overpowered as a +2 modifier. Fair enough. Now let's put them in the hands of NPCs. Granted, PCs should certainly have access to restoration spells by the time NPCs are using these types of weapons but that just gives the cleric another thing to worry about when the fighter is getting slashed up by the wounding-weapon-wielding ranger. Plus, if I recall correctly, restoration leaves the caster fatigued. Get a couple of rogues with wounding daggers and you've got some serious problems for the party.
Still, I appreciate all the input. I suppose I might not have tested it out enough (since our games tend to be lower than 10th level) but it certainly seemed nasty at those levels. I won't try to fix what isn't broken, but I will probably add the 'bleeding' ability to my games and call it a +1 modifier.
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I suppose I might not have tested it out enough (since our games tend to be lower than 10th level) but it certainly seemed nasty at those levels. I won't try to fix what isn't broken, but I will probably add the 'bleeding' ability to my games and call it a +1 modifier.
...and don't forget the pairs of TWF rogues with Wounding daggers! :)
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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...and don't forget the pairs of TWF rogues with Wounding daggers! :)
Oh, absolutely. All of my games from here on will feature pairs of rogues who have TWF and wounding daggers. In fact, I'm planning an encounter right now where the party will battle 20 rogues with wounding daggers and all of the ones that aren't in melee will be using Precise Shot to chuck wounding throwing axes at the party members. It'll be great fun!
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...and don't forget the pairs of TWF rogues with Wounding daggers! :)Oh, absolutely. All of my games from here on will feature pairs of rogues who have TWF and wounding daggers. In fact, I'm planning an encounter right now where the party will battle 20 rogues with wounding daggers and all of the ones that aren't in melee will be using Precise Shot to chuck wounding throwing axes at the party members. It'll be great fun!
...and don't forget the lv 10 BBEG wizard just sitting back and dropping Invisibility and Greater Invisibility on them.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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...and don't forget the lv 10 BBEG wizard just sitting back and dropping Invisibility and Greater Invisibility on them.
Yeah, and I'll have him drop cloudkill on the party for MORE CON damage! Hmm... that'll hurt the rogues too, though... unless... they were UNDEAD ROGUES! Yeah! That's what I'll do! Lots of undead rogues with TWF and wounding daggers backed by a wizard dropping cloudkill and invisibility and improved invisibility on everything! AWESOME!
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Okay, so it seems like the general concensus is that wounding is not overpowered as a +2 modifier. Fair enough. Now let's put them in the hands of NPCs. Granted, PCs should certainly have access to restoration spells by the time NPCs are using these types of weapons but that just gives the cleric another thing to worry about when the fighter is getting slashed up by the wounding-weapon-wielding ranger. Plus, if I recall correctly, restoration leaves the caster fatigued. Get a couple of rogues with wounding daggers and you've got some serious problems for the party.
The main problem is the 3 round casting time and the 100 gp material component. Restoration does not leave the caster fatigued.
The best way to treat wounding is probably lesser restoration, especially if you have the Augment Healing feat (1d4+4 points of Con heals you up pretty fast). Still a 3 round cating time.
In terms oF NPC battles, the cost is really the limiting factor. Except at high levels, the bad guys don't have the coin to outfit everyone with multiple wounding weapons.
Oh, absolutely. All of my games from here on will feature pairs of rogues who have TWF and wounding daggers. In fact, I'm planning an encounter right now where the party will battle 20 rogues with wounding daggers and all of the ones that aren't in melee will be using Precise Shot to chuck wounding throwing axes at the party members. It'll be great fun!
Your players ruined another plot, and now it's time for revenge again?
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Yeah, and I'll have him drop cloudkill on the party for MORE CON damage! Hmm... that'll hurt the rogues too, though... unless... they were UNDEAD ROGUES! Yeah! That's what I'll do! Lots of undead rogues with TWF and wounding daggers backed by a wizard dropping cloudkill and invisibility and improved invisibility on everything! AWESOME!
Well... yeah! They are all Mummies, after all!
Hi Fatespinner (and others). I actually think a weapon property similar to the one you have proposed already exists. I'm not sure its from WotC and is called bleeding or something. Its a +1 weapon quality.
I'm with the others on this. Wounding being +2 is not that bad considering that holy is +2 as well. A +1 wounding weapon would cost 18,000 gp + the weapon price, which is pretty fair.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I'm with the others on this. Wounding being +2 is not that bad considering that holy is +2 as well. A +1 wounding weapon would cost 18,000 gp + the weapon price, which is pretty fair.
By this reasoning, would it still be a +2 modifier to apply this effect to any of the other stats? What about enfeebling (STR), crippling (DEX), lobotomizing (INT), disorienting (WIS), or hazing (CHA)?
I'm with the others on this. Wounding being +2 is not that bad considering that holy is +2 as well. A +1 wounding weapon would cost 18,000 gp + the weapon price, which is pretty fair.By this reasoning, would it still be a +2 modifier to apply this effect to any of the other stats? What about enfeebling (STR), crippling (DEX), lobotomizing (INT), disorienting (WIS), or hazing (CHA)?
Mmmm...not sure. While some people might claim that Con is more important than Int or that Str is more important than Cha it's hard to justify this in the rules without people complaining. My belief is that they would all be +2.
Plus, I can almost picture an ogre wearing a college jersey and wielding a +2 hazing greatclub. That'd be worth the +2 price tag alone! ;-)
Uhm, wasn't wounding exactly as you describe this "bleeding" property in 3.0?
Uhm, wasn't wounding exactly as you describe this "bleeding" property in 3.0?
3.0? I can't remember back that far! ;-)
Perhaps you're right (and you probably are). Of course, that beggars another question. Why do you think they changed it?
Because it sounded weak and took too long to take effect, unlike a 1 Con damage bonus on every strike. Additionally, "bleeding" damage might have been seen as just one more thing to track- people may have been forgetting to apply the additional damage.
That's my wild shot in the dark.
hazing (CHA)?
Now I'm going to have to put a hazing property on a weapon to use against my sorceror and bard players.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Because it sounded weak and took too long to take effect, unlike a 1 Con damage bonus on every strike. Additionally, "bleeding" damage might have been seen as just one more thing to track- people may have been forgetting to apply the additional damage.
Yeah, I think you're right about the 3.0 thing. Also, I feel you're probably right about the 'difficulty to track' thing.
"Wait, you hit him twice this round?"
"Yeah."
"So he loses another 2 hit points next round on top of the 13 from last round.... okay, he loses 15 hit points next round total."
"What about my attack of opportunity that hit?"
"Right, 16 hit points."
"Hasn't it been two rounds since that attack?"
"Yeah, did we count it last round?"
"I don't... I don't think so."
"Okay, so he actually took one more this round."
"Didn't we both get an attack of opporuntity?"
<DM's head explodes.>
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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hazing (CHA)?Now I'm going to have to put a hazing property on a weapon to use against my sorceror and bard players.
Meh, I couldn't think of a better name for a CHA-damaging enchantment. Hazing sounded good. I still think it's applicable. People who suffer one too many hits from it just kinda stare into space and say things like 'Whooooaaa.....' Come to think of it, people who suffer one too many hits from a bong fall into the same stupor...
<DM's head explodes.>
I recommend titanium skull reinforcement to cut down on DM head explosion mishaps.
Meh, I couldn't think of a better name for a CHA-damaging enchantment. Hazing sounded good. I still think it's applicable. People who suffer one too many hits from it just kinda stare into space and say things like 'Whooooaaa.....' Come to think of it, people who suffer one too many hits from a bong fall into the same stupor...hazing (CHA)?Now I'm going to have to put a hazing property on a weapon to use against my sorceror and bard players.
I like hazing. Seems like a good name for the property.
That or ugly stick.
Crosspost!
It also effectively limits a creature to only surviving as many hits as it has CON, regardless of hit points (since 0 CON = dead).
Surely, on average, this number is significantly higher then the number of rounds the creature will live simply due to hp damage.
Would this be a bad time to mention greater wounding?
I am scared of groups of rogues with TWF and the crippling strike special ability.
Uhm, wasn't wounding exactly as you describe this "bleeding" property in 3.0?
Don't know offhand if thats the way it worked in 3.0 but it did work that way in 2e. It was really nasty because while you were still taking damage from it you could not regenerate.
Hmmm lobotimizing...
I like it!
hazing (CHA)?Now I'm going to have to put a hazing property on a weapon to use against my sorceror and bard players.
More useful against fighters or anyone else that has a low Cha. There's a reason that ego whip is feared. :)
More useful against fighters or anyone else that has a low Cha. There's a reason that ego whip is feared. :)hazing (CHA)?Now I'm going to have to put a hazing property on a weapon to use against my sorceror and bard players.
Good point! There's nothing quite as enjoyable as making the frontline fighter catatonic, as I learned running Age of Worms.
The wounding weapon used to deal 1 point of recurring damage for ten rounds, but I think it took too much paperwork to count several bouts of one-point damage over rounds. The Con damage property was originally known as the "marrowcrushing" ability in the Book of Vile Darkness, and rated as +3 equivalent.
On average it's dealing half the target's hit dice in damage per hit, while imposing a -1 penalty to Fort saves and Con-based special abilities every two hits. At level 10 that's 5/hit against a ten-headed pyrohydra, 7.5/hit on a cauchemar nightmare, 7 damage to a frost giant (equivalent to the average of 2d6), or 4 damage to a night hag. It doesn't work against certain creatures, so for +2 it's reasonably balanced at this level.
However, it gets more powerful with level. By level 20 it's dealing 9/hit to a pit fiend, 10/hit to an NPC or titan, 15/hit to a very old blue dragon, and a whopping 24 damage per hit to the Tarrasque. Few other +2 enhancements will effectively give you half your level to damage. It's the only weapon enhancement I can think of that actually scales with level.
The main problem is the 3 round casting time and the 100 gp material component. Restoration does not leave the caster fatigued.
The best way to treat wounding is probably lesser restoration, especially if you have the Augment Healing feat (1d4+4 points of Con heals you up pretty fast). Still a 3 round casting time.
This is where "Some" psionic characters can do almost as well as a cleric. An Egoist, or an Ardent or Divine Mind with the Life Mantle have access to Psionic Restoration (6th Level). Same range and casting time as Regular Restoration.
Any Psion, Wilder, Psycic Warrior, Ardent, or Divine Mind (the last two again needing access to the life mantle) also have access to Body Purification if they choose it as a power known. Self only but manifestation time is 1 round. It Heals 3 points of ability damage (not drain) and is augmentable, +1 point per extra pp spent.
A 10th level character chould heal themselves of 8 points of ability damage (10 for a psycic warrior) in one round.
I would agree with Fatespinner here. Wounding weapons are the most powerful +2 weapon I have come across. To compare and decide if they should be +3, let's take a look.
Erik Mona has stated holy and unholy weapons are very powerful for their +2 cost. Based on what they can effect, the wounding will not work on constructs and undead. The holy will not have its additional damage on constructs and anything good or neutral. The good or neutral does not mean only effective 1/3 of the time in fact the majority of enemies will fall into this catagory. (Thus Erik's point.) But a good villian will not populate their lair with only evil creature considering the number of paladins looking to make a name for themselves it would not be a intelligent thing to do. Let's call it a draw. Oh, I forgot plants, still a draw.
Damage is interesting because aside from weapon damage, specialization, etc. a wounding weapon's increases with the HD of the foe you face. It is more effective against the BBEG than against his flunkies. If you decide a magic weapon cannot take more than 1/2 the gear value, a +1 wounding weapon (18,000) will be in the hands of a 14th level NPC (40%wealth) or a 9th level PC (50% wealth). Against a 14th level foe damage from con loss is 7pt this is equal to the damage from a holy weapon (2d6). Against a lower level foe it is less effective 10th level 5pts. This can become exceedingly deadly against advanced creatures or nonassociated classes. For example, a cloud giant/16th level priest (quite a scary foe) would be a CR 19 encounter but have 33HD.
The weapon would also decrease Fort saves making one more vulnerable to death spells, etc. One thing limiting the deadliness of the wounding weapon is that it does not affect creatures immune to critical hits, this would also apply to fortification armor.
Sheltered vitality would be great if one knew he would be facing an enemy with a wounding weapon. Since the duration is 1 min/level for a 4th level spell it is doubtful it will be have been cast prior to facing the enemy.
I would say wounding is the most powerful +2 weapon ability. Should it be +3? There is evidence that it possibly should be. I would like to see how damaging one could be in the high level portions of the adventure paths before calling for it to be +3.
...and don't forget the lv 10 BBEG wizard just sitting back and dropping Invisibility and Greater Invisibility on them.Yeah, and I'll have him drop cloudkill on the party for MORE CON damage! Hmm... that'll hurt the rogues too, though... unless... they were UNDEAD ROGUES! Yeah! That's what I'll do! Lots of undead rogues with TWF and wounding daggers backed by a wizard dropping cloudkill and invisibility and improved invisibility on everything! AWESOME!
The party is probably at a higher level than the rogues so the cleric would just turn them. Keep the rogues alive but throw in some clerics to heroes feast everbody.
Regarding weapons that damage abilities other than constitution, they can be quite deadly. Creatures gain strength and constitution when advanced. Few creatures have a low strength and high CR.
Constitution is one ability that almost all creatures have at least average ability in.(see p.8-10 PHB)
There is a problem with spells such as ray of clumsiness(p.166 SC)
Against a 16HD, 12CR purple worm (dex6) a 2nd level caster reduces it to a dex1 50% of the time (a roll of 4,5, or 6). By 8th level the penalty reduces the worm to a dex1 all the time. It would only take one hit from a dex blade to paralyze it. A great wyrm dragon (take your pick they all have dex 10) would need only to be hit 2 times after being hit by a ray. (10th level average damage 1d6(3)+5 from dex 10).
Oozes would be taken out with one hit of a dex, wis, or cha item. (p.201 MM elder black pudding CR 12) Animals(normal and dire) and magical beasts would be taken out quickly by int damaging items.
Damage is interesting because aside from weapon damage, specialization, etc. a wounding weapon's increases with the HD of the foe you face. It is more effective against the BBEG than against his flunkies. If you decide a magic weapon cannot take more than 1/2 the gear value, a +1 wounding weapon (18,000) will be in the hands of a 14th level NPC (40%wealth) or a 9th level PC (50% wealth). Against a 14th level foe damage from con loss is 7pt this is equal to the damage from a holy weapon (2d6). Against a lower level foe it is less effective 10th level 5pts. This can become exceedingly deadly against advanced creatures or nonassociated classes. For example, a cloud giant/16th level priest (quite a scary foe) would be a CR 19 encounter but have 33HD.
Still are we really talking about whacking an enemy ~25-30 times to kill it?
I mean I suppose I see how this helps in the whole whiddling down the bad guys hps angle and yet it seems to me that my high level players that focus on more hp damage just sort of out strip this whole aspect since they are likely to be dishing out ~100 hps (or more) a round. So the BBEG goes down having lost a bit of con and a whole mess of hps. It seems to me that bad guys that are out there sucking back everything the party can throw at them are going down in 3-5 rounds. there just is not enough time for the Con damage to ever be a really significant part of this event.
I don't see how this works well in conjunction with whats going on with a party during a combat round. By the time the players are dealing with something like a CR 19 Giant with 33 HD They also could be meandering around with +2 holy flaming burst two handed sword comboed with power attack, as slew of feats that add damage and are likely buffed to the gills with spells that add more damage. Essentially they are rolling handfuls of dice and adding a some large number to the result. I just can't see how changing some of this hp damage out for some con damage is really going to be all that helpful. Especially considering how many ways a high level enemy can heal ability damage - often in conjunction with healing hp damage. In this example the giants heal spell will be doubly frustrating to a party that had one or more players with wounding weapons because the ability damage would be healed along with the hps.
Still are we really talking about whacking an enemy ~25-30 times to kill it?
I mean I suppose I see how this helps in the whole whiddling down the bad guys hps angle and yet it seems to me that my high level players that focus on more hp damage just sort of out strip this whole aspect since they are likely to be dishing out ~100 hps (or more) a round. So the BBEG goes down having lost a bit of con and a whole mess of hps. It seems to me that bad guys that are out there sucking back everything the party can throw at them are going down in 3-5 rounds. there just is not enough time for the Con damage to ever be a really significant part of this event.
I don't see how this works well in conjunction with whats going on with a party during a combat round. By the time the players are dealing with something like a CR 19 Giant with 33 HD They also could be meandering around with +2 holy flaming burst two handed sword comboed with power attack, as slew of feats that add damage and are likely buffed to the gills with spells that add more damage. Essentially they are rolling handfuls of dice and adding a some large number to the result. I just can't see how changing some of this hp damage out for some con damage is really going...
I think you missed my point entirely. With feats, ability scores, etc expected to all be equal. This is important. Why would you start talking about feats in a conversion comparing magic weapon properties?
Under your reasoning what good is the additional damage from the holy and flaming burst going to do if feats allow you to do ~100hp of damage in a round? My point is that you will do more damage with a +2 wounding weapon opposed to a holy or flaming+shock weapon against this enemy.
I am sorry for using the giant as an example, I thought it would be something you would find in a high level adventure path. Also nonassociated advancement is +1CR/2HD which is in the middle on the advancement table (p.294 MM) If I wanted to go extremes then I would choose a 31HD dire tiger, CR 13. The wounding weapon would do +15 1/2, based solely on the wounding property per hit. The holy and flame+shock would do 2d6 (avg 7pts) per hit.
Wait?!? Since when do wounding weapons take out your CON? Wasn't it that they dealt an extra point of damage every turn?
Well, it seems this again falls into the category of "You're a fighter, you don't get cool stuff" that I have been seeing quite a bit on the boards recently.
Seriously, we are talking about a weapon enhancement, that shouldn't come into play until level 9+ at least, right about the time Fighters are starting to fall behind in effectiveness anyway. By this level the melee characters trying to hit things with a pointy stick are the least of your problems, as the spellcasters are starting to get serious with the save or dies (or at least horribly screwed).
Let the Fighter have His wounding weapon. If HP point damage is the primary way your party takes down their enemies, they will need all the help they can get.
I think you missed my point entirely. With feats, ability scores, etc expected to all be equal. This is important. Why would you start talking about feats in a conversion comparing magic weapon properties?
Because wounding, as a +2 enhancement, represents an opportunity cost compared to yet more damage on top of the already great damage that these characters should be dishing out. Particularly because their doing this hp damage in conjunction with the rest of the party.
Under your reasoning what good is the additional damage from the holy and flaming burst going to do if feats allow you to do ~100hp of damage in a round? My point is that you will do more damage with a +2 wounding weapon opposed to a holy or flaming+shock weapon against this enemy.
Here I think your misunderstanding me. The whole party is going to, generally be doing ~100+ hp damage a round the a nasty bad guy going toe to toe with them. That includes the rogue with its backstab, the mage and the cleric as well as, of course, our big meat shield. Its in this sort of circumstance that wounding, while good, is really not that awe inspiring. Big bad guy is dead in 3-5 rounds probably having taken some where in the vicinity of 200-400 hps worth of damage. If a wounding weapon is in play then Big Bad Guy probably also lost maybe 4-8 con over the course of the fight. Kind of nasty but its not really what killed it - the hp damage killed it and it did so because the rogue got flanking and went nuts with sneak attack damage - the mage was making the BBEG suck down one maximized scorching ray after another and the cleric was using blade of blood on top of some other beefy buffs to dish out really hefty damage. At this point its not really a big deal if your raging barbarian with a two handed sword happens to have wounding instead of holy. The Con damage and the extra hps lost to the Con damage is just to small a part of the total percentage of hps that the BBEG is loosing on a round for round basis. Our bad guy is going to die with lots of con to spare.
So yeah - wounding is good but its not +3 good and, as a DM I'm probably more concerned with the shell shock I get when I realize just how much damage high level players can deliver, as a party, in a round when they put their mind to it. My point is not so much that wounding is bad - my point is that its really just not that good. Nothing in terms of play balance is going to be broken because a player has a wounding weapon. I suspect the DM will barely notice the extra damage it did considering that it comes in the midst of the noise of the massive ammount of hp damage that the players dish out every round anyway.
Yikes!! I just looked up Blade of Blood. I guess they were trying to make a spell like Divine Sacrifice. Except you get swift action vs standard, you only take damage once IIRC. How is that 1st level when a duskblade can attack up to 4 times starting at 16th level and cast it 10 times by 17th.