Changes to D&D with 4th Ed.


3.5/d20/OGL


The rumor is going around that WotC might release the prelim stuff for 4th Ed. at Gen Con. If this is true, what do you want to see changed in the game? Do you want 4th Ed. to be a complete change from 3.5 or simply a further refinement of the current rules?

Of course, this line of questioning is probably mute since we can't change anything, but I think it's fun to think about anyway.

Others out there might not be so appreciative, but I can handle any abuse. ;-)

Liberty's Edge

I want Dragon Time Lords who fly in spaceships piloted by Uplifted dolphins and hippopotami. An I want a d30 System. And I want...and...I...and


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I predict the future of D&D will be a d100 system.

Percentage chances for everything.


But who else can't wait until D&D 4.0?

I can't wait this game just seems to get better with each new editions.

I'm hoping for all online content that I can pay a monthly fee for, access. I can pay for content I only use, and forget the rest. That with an online subscription to a DM tool set and PC/ campaign traker function, with a monthly subscription fee, that just sounds so convenient. When I am done playing and real life intervenes I can cancel my suybscription so I don't have to pay while I don't play.

Feats, spells, classes, races can all be purchased seperatly so you only have to pay for what you want. When you start a new campaign, you cancel your old subscription, renew with the items you wish, renew your D&D 4.0 subscription (small resubscription fee of course).


Unless they flat out lied at the D&D Experience at the begining of the year, WOTC said that 4th editions is "a ways off," and that 2008 is filled with 3.5 products. I guess they could announce 4th edition is coming in two years, but it would be rather silly to release preliminary 4th edition material two years out, to my way of thinking.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

For me, the biggest change that would come with 4e is that it would be the first edition that I wouldn't switch to immediately. My group and I like the 3/3.5e rules, we collectively have alot of books, and the 3/3.5e OGL means that there's definate potential for support well into the future.

If the Star wars saga Edition rules are any indication, 4e isn't that great a leap from 3e anyway.

-Skeld

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Phil. L wrote:

The rumor is going around that WotC might release the prelim stuff for 4th Ed. at Gen Con. If this is true, what do you want to see changed in the game? Do you want 4th Ed. to be a complete change from 3.5 or simply a further refinement of the current rules?

Of course, this line of questioning is probably mute since we can't change anything, but I think it's fun to think about anyway.

Others out there might not be so appreciative, but I can handle any abuse. ;-)

Phil - Give me your address. I'm sending you a satellite dish. You clearly need alternate sources of entertainment.

Besides, we all know the facts: 4e is going to be diceless, classless, minatures-based, with a trading-card component, and online-only content. The first campaign setting will be PokeKnights, which will be Eberron crossed with Pokemon, but ruled by Elmenster.

Edit: And it's moot, not mute.

Liberty's Edge

KnightErrantJR wrote:

Unless they flat out lied at the D&D Experience at the begining of the year, WOTC said that 4th editions is "a ways off," and that 2008 is filled with 3.5 products. I guess they could announce 4th edition is coming in two years, but it would be rather silly to release preliminary 4th edition material two years out, to my way of thinking.

This reminds me of when Microsoft and The Official Xbox Magazine stated emphatically, that Xbox 2 (aka Xbox 360) was waaaay in the future and there were no, NO, no, no, NO!!! plans to produce any upgrade to the Xbox...not one year later, Xbox 360 was officially announced.

Sovereign Court Contributor

Read my lips...

Paizo Employee Director of Game Development

Rambling Scribe wrote:
Read my lips...

I swore I heard this guy say something like that back in the late 80s...


Phil. L wrote:
The rumor is going around that WotC might release the prelim stuff for 4th Ed. at Gen Con.

No.


The fun part about these threads, like the 3rd ed versions before them, is that they imagine a tweak of the current ruleset, vice the radical overhaul that the OGL and D20 introduced. I'm pretty sure WoTC is gonna want to watch the success (or not) of the DI before they make any moves towards a new edition.


4.0 will be exclusively digital. You'll need to log into their server to access it, paying a monthly fee to do so. Maps complete with fog of war will be built in and the DM will log in as the games "Administrator".

Those gamers with negative credit ratings will be denied access.

China will block the site from its citizens.

Liberty's Edge

Whatever the f+@& 4.0 is going to be, I for one am NOT going to be playing.


The Eldritch Mr. Shiny wrote:
Whatever the f#@% 4.0 is going to be, I for one am NOT going to be playing.

Here here. I've put too much time and money into 3.5 to care about 4.0. There's not much I think they need to change, and when I encounter such things, I change it myself. 4.0, I predict, will be a waste of money, space, and good paper.


D&D 4.0 will be devoid of classes, races, genders, and emotions. Giraffes will replace DMs, toasters will replace players, and the whole thing will be done on the inside of a marble. You will have to install a port into your body through which the information will come out of the fountain pen and into your cabbage.

That's my prediction. You just watch and see.


Sebastian wrote:


Phil - Give me your address. I'm sending you a satellite dish. You clearly need alternate sources of entertainment.

Either that or just start directing Phil to the topics that have already been covered dozens of times on previous threads...

As ever,
ACE


theacemu wrote:
Sebastian wrote:


Phil - Give me your address. I'm sending you a satellite dish. You clearly need alternate sources of entertainment.

Either that or just start directing Phil to the topics that have already been covered dozens of times on previous threads...

As ever,
ACE

This from a beholder!


I want (stats for) a pony.


Things I would like:

Descriptions in the monster, class, PrC, and magic item entries that give give a clearer idea as to game environment

Magic Level (low, middle, high)
Game Level (low, middle, high, epic) CR doesn't quite
Setting: (most approriate for Faerun)

I guess my point is too many DMs (at least in my play - an important caveat) feel obligated to use EVERYTHING - and have difficulty picking well. I like settings that make since - and I think some direction would be helpful - it could of course be ignored by those who wanted everything in their game worlds.

More modular class features - so that rather than choosing a set class you (as an example) spent XP to gain: hit die, skill points, feats, ability score bonuses, and what are now currently class abilities).

Templates could be added as "package deals".

The idea being that then everyone is an adventurer - rather than a barbarian, bard, etc.

Then things like Ranger, Ninja, Scout, etc. could be used to describe organizations, lineage, military honors, etc. which seems more in line with those names.

I would like to see beenfits codified for time taken to train go to school etc. in game.

I would like to see more unique monsters, dragons giants, etc.

I would like to see more non-adventurer magic. to fortify walls against magic, teleport, etc. Increase water supplies, crop growth.

More ward and pact magic.

More places of power.

Well thats a start.


Yeah, that goodie-goodie American idea where you can pay for everything online using credit-cards or debit cards.

No thanks. I don't make enough money for a credit card(2000+ euro) and at last check my bank didn't even know what a debit card was. Figuring automatic incasso/IDeal will probably be too hard for Wizards(Blizzard managed it in Europe though).

That and I've invested too much money in books and supplements to switch editions like that.

/2 copper


Sebastian wrote:


Edit: And it's moot, not mute.

When discussing a new 4.0 edition, I like mute better.

*sticking fingers in ears* "Lalalalalala"


Dirk Gently wrote:
The Eldritch Mr. Shiny wrote:
Whatever the f#@% 4.0 is going to be, I for one am NOT going to be playing.
Here here. I've put too much time and money into 3.5 to care about 4.0.

Thats what they ALL say.

(I know this will come off as sounding like a flame, but I'll take that chance...)

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

theacemu wrote:
Sebastian wrote:


Phil - Give me your address. I'm sending you a satellite dish. You clearly need alternate sources of entertainment.

Either that or just start directing Phil to the topics that have already been covered dozens of times on previous threads...

As ever,
ACE

Well played. How's the baby doing?


I'd like to see a new shiny 4th edition which is replaced in 18 months by 4.5 edition. While essentially the same there will be enough changes to ensure everyone needs to buy 6 books not 3.

I would like this to be followed by updating of campaign settings and all class books eventually leading to books such as the "complete piano tuner" or source books such as "Essential small dark places" which you will need if you want to set your campaign on the inside of a cupboard.

After this I hope outside companies can be granted licences to produce products for 4e, and the revival of Dragon and Dungeon. These licences will be cancelled a short while later as rumours of 5e esculate. Leaving smaller companies to look for other revenue sources to survive.

Eventually, in an effort to satisfy an increasing demand there will be a proliferation of settings published in super quick time with little support leading to the collapse of the D&D brand untill another company picks up the rights.

... Sound familiar, maybe. Perhaps we should look at it this way. If there is a business need for 4th edition and there is one at least there is still D&D being published. Better than we have had at some points in the past.

Elcian

I'm feeling a little sinical today, can you tell

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

I’ve Got Reach wrote:
Dirk Gently wrote:
The Eldritch Mr. Shiny wrote:
Whatever the f#@% 4.0 is going to be, I for one am NOT going to be playing.
Here here. I've put too much time and money into 3.5 to care about 4.0.

Thats what they ALL say.

(I know this will come off as sounding like a flame, but I'll take that chance...)

Neh. I'll flame. WotC is going to be smart enough to call it D&D 3e revised or something. It'll still actually be a 4e (or a 5e if you want to pony up and actually admit that 3.5 was a new edition) but, having already shown that the majority of D&D consumers will buy a new edition if they don't label it 4e, they can sleep safely at night knowing everyone will buy it.

You bought 3.5? And you're complaining about 4e? I see...

Go bust out Sword and Fist and cry me a river about your wasted investment in books.

That being said - the above in no way applies to those who just hate WotC for cancelling dragon/dungeon and are boycotting them for that reason. That stems from an entirely different set of emotional reactions, but it's not one that I'm willing to discount so sharply. That's why I'm baking a special too-disenchanted-with-WotC-to-buy-anything-from-them-pie just for Heathy. That way, he can enjoy that while I'm serving a big slice of ha-ha-you-bought-4e-after-saying-you-would-never-switch-editions pie to everyone else.

Hmmm...pie...

Liberty's Edge

Sebastian wrote:


That being said - the above in no way applies to those who just hate WotC for cancelling dragon/dungeon and are boycotting them for that reason. That stems from an entirely different set of emotional reactions, but it's not one that I'm willing to discount so sharply. That's why I'm baking a special too-disenchanted-with-WotC-to-buy-anything-from-them-pie just for Heathy.

Can I have some?

Liberty's Edge

Y'know, I'm getting less mad, what with that talk about you reach more people over the internet than over the magazine stands and the "no-brainer" speech. I don't know where I saw it. I guess it makes sense, and it's going to be one more horse losing a race to the self propelled automatic gas-powered wagon.

And, life went on after they canceled National Lampoon.


I often hear people complain about buying new books, but how often do you get so much use out of a book as in D&D? You'll pay eight pounds or ten dollars for a novel and have it read in a day, or thirty pounds / sixty dollars for a textbook that will do you for a year. Meanwhile, a Player's Handbook will do you for a game every weekend. If you've been playing since 2001 and bought both Players's Handbooks, that's $10 a year or nineteen cents per gaming session.

Consider a Dungeon Master, who has bought all three core rulebooks under the same circumstances; he has spent $180 on core books alone, but over six years that's only $30 per year. Even 3.0 sourcebooks are still more or less valid material. I paid £14 for Sword and Fist in 2002, and it's provided me and my group with character options and campaign inspiration ever since. Even if we assume that a group buys every current D&D 3.5 book between the five of them at $30 a book, we're looking at $240 or £120 per player over the past four years. That's under five dollars per weekly session, or one third the cost of a World of Warcraft subscription, and that's assuming you buy every book out and they're all made completely obsolete tomorrow. Considering the longevity of D&D books compared to other material, it's really not all that bad value.

I think it's largely that people have such a large emotional investment in their products. It's satisfying to look a full bookshelf; less so to think that half of it is now outdated by new products, and being expected to pay for that privilege just feels bad. I think the real problem may be that the rules revision changed too much and too little at the same time, leaving a lot of players a little confused, dissatisfied, and having to buy the new rules anyway just to keep up with the new class splatbooks.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I'd like to see some *new* races - and for them to delete the crappy half-elves/orcs.

I'd like to see armor provide DR, instead of an AC bonus, or perhaps a combination of the two (reflecting valance points in plate armor, etc.), and therefore a Basic Defense Value should be added. They could steal from Iron Heroes . . .

I'd like to see Sorceror's have *their own* spell lists! How does it make sense for someone born with magical ability to cast something *invented* by a wizard, such as Mordenkainen?

I'd like them to change back the names of spells they PC'ed for 3.5 - sometimes things are named what they are for because they're so old everyone's forgotten why a given thing has a given name. Why is Dick short for Richard? I don't want or need *consistent naming conventions* - It's Polymorph Other, damnit! It's a freaking *Minor* Globe of Invulnerability! For 25 years those spells were named so and nobody complained.

Speaking of Polymorph (Self, in this case), it sure would be nice if they could fix that gaping wound. If you take the form of a wolf, you *suddenly* gain an ability wolves learn from their elders (i.e. Improved Trip), but you can't make use of the scent ability, which is an innate ability; and this makes sense how, exactly?

I'd like to see elven babes be attractive, *again* . . . and would like to see artwork that depicts elven babes as hotties, not as alien, bug-eyed freakazoids. Check out that painting of the grey elves in PHB 2.0 to see what I mean.

I'd like to see D. A. Trampier lose it and become a crazy, loser nerd (again) and produce art for 4th edition, *and* start drawing Wormy (again).

Lastly, I'd like to see WotC completely biff 4.0, and then see Hasbro sell the D & D license to Paizo for a song. But, I'm crazy, and you guys shouldn't be reading this. Oh, J$%@&$US! The meatheads in the white coats are coming! Gotta go! ;^D


Sir Kaikillah wrote:

But who else can't wait until D&D 4.0?

I can't wait this game just seems to get better with each new editions.

I'm hoping for all online content that I can pay a monthly fee for, access. I can pay for content I only use, and forget the rest. That with an online subscription to a DM tool set and PC/ campaign traker function, with a monthly subscription fee, that just sounds so convenient. When I am done playing and real life intervenes I can cancel my suybscription so I don't have to pay while I don't play.

Feats, spells, classes, races can all be purchased seperatly so you only have to pay for what you want. When you start a new campaign, you cancel your old subscription, renew with the items you wish, renew your D&D 4.0 subscription (small resubscription fee of course).

I sure hope you're joking.


Phil. L wrote:

The rumor is going around that WotC might release the prelim stuff for 4th Ed. at Gen Con. If this is true, what do you want to see changed in the game? Do you want 4th Ed. to be a complete change from 3.5 or simply a further refinement of the current rules?

Of course, this line of questioning is probably mute since we can't change anything, but I think it's fun to think about anyway.

Others out there might not be so appreciative, but I can handle any abuse. ;-)

Third Edition has pumped more books out onto the market than I will ever need or use. A fourth edition, well financially, I just couldn't keep up with it at all. If they will have three or four core books and a magazine, sure I'll buy them to stay apace, but I won't convert to fourth edition. I already have second and third edition characters in the works, plus anything from d20, Mutants and Masterminds 2nd ed., d6 legends, d6 Classsic, etc.

Just two copper peices from my treasure horde.....


Nobody's forcing you to buy all these new Wizards books - ignoring books my players buy, I don't think I've bought one myself since Complete Arcane. I think Wizards themselves are lamenting the fact that a talented DM can get away with three core books, an imagination and a subscription to Dungeon - I suspect this was a factor in their deciding not to renew the license. First it's not making enough money, then it's making too much!


farewell2kings wrote:
Sir Kaikillah wrote:

But who else can't wait until D&D 4.0?

I can't wait this game just seems to get better with each new editions.

I'm hoping for all online content that I can pay a monthly fee for, access. I can pay for content I only use, and forget the rest. That with an online subscription to a DM tool set and PC/ campaign traker function, with a monthly subscription fee, that just sounds so convenient. When I am done playing and real life intervenes I can cancel my suybscription so I don't have to pay while I don't play.

Feats, spells, classes, races can all be purchased seperatly so you only have to pay for what you want. When you start a new campaign, you cancel your old subscription, renew with the items you wish, renew your D&D 4.0 subscription (small resubscription fee of course).

I sure hope you're joking.

Yes

Scarab Sages

I think was D&D 3.X was a much needed paradigm shift. Are there bugs? Sure, of course. But lets remember that 3.X was developed before the internet revolution really took off. We gamers take for granted this editions scrutiny via the internet (blogs, message boards, etc). This edition is much more transparent in terms of mechanics, and the community at large is much more connected.

4.0 is inevitable, but I personally think it will be done by the likes of Monte Cook, Necromancer Games, Paizo, etc and the gamers who support them via the Open Game License.

Monte Cook has a blog post about this very subject. You can find it Here. In it he talks about the value of the Open Game License. He is very insightful and I encourage you to read it. But he also says, rightly, so goes D&D (a la WOTC) so goes the OGL.

But I think we are at a turning point. The staff of Paizo, with its roots in "100% official D&D" are now embarking on the OGL. Despite the plethora of OGL publishers, a few are standing out as GREAT amidst the crap that is the bulk of them.

Monte Cook is well-versed in the mechanics of the game. So are the staff at Paizo (albeit in different areas). There are many "regular joes" who frequent the boards who are very adept as well.

It is here that my hope for D&D 4th ed. lies. Perhaps Hasbro/WoTC will listen to this community and produce an edition that addresses these problems. They are publishers, and at some point, you've published everything you can for an edition. The warning signs are here: Revisits of "similar" material (Complete Mage and Complete Arcane), New systems (tome of Magic, Tome of Battle (trying out the reception of possible 4th ed. mechanics).

But I have found that the few GREAT OGL publishers are doing a better job than WoTC. And Paizo looks poised to really shine in that arena. I'd like to see them try, for sheets and giggles, to produce a 4th ed. ruleset, however minor (think original red box basic set).

I for one will vote with my wallet. I will support products I like, and avoid those I don't. I'll make my voice heard on the boards, and offer constructive criticism when needed.

D&D is evolving. It always has been. The Open Game License may have produced a lot of genetic dead-ends, but the Survival of the Fittest has only resulted in a much better game. If the D&D community continues to support the "fittest" OGL products, the game will get better. Support the hideous mutations, and the game suffers. But be prepared to actually like a WoTC 4th ed. as there are some pretty phenomenal people working there as well.


Sebastian wrote:
theacemu wrote:
Sebastian wrote:


Phil - Give me your address. I'm sending you a satellite dish. You clearly need alternate sources of entertainment.

Either that or just start directing Phil to the topics that have already been covered dozens of times on previous threads...

As ever,
ACE

Well played. How's the baby doing?

Sorry, brother. I havent' been able to keep up on these boards since the boy's been born. Between work, helping with the boy and the house, and sleep there's been little time for anything else. All is well in the ACE household though, thanks for asking!

As ever,
ACE


Stedd Grimwold wrote:
But lets remember that 3.X was developed before the internet revolution really took off.

A very interesting assertion, Stedd. How do you define the internet revolution "really taking off"? By my calculations, it was already well under way by the time 3.X was being developed, but I've been logging on to BBSes, chat rooms and the like for over twenty-five years, so I sometimes have a hard time telling what the internet revolution looked like from the outside, or when it began for other people.

Regardless, I was logging on and surfing the web well before 3.0 came out, but I also recognize I'm a very early adopter in this particular case.


Sebastian wrote:

WotC is going to be smart enough to call it D&D 3e revised or something. It'll still actually be a 4e (or a 5e if you want to pony up and actually admit that 3.5 was a new edition) but, having already shown that the majority of D&D consumers will buy a new edition if they don't label it 4e, they can sleep safely at night knowing everyone will buy it.

You bought 3.5? And you're complaining about 4e? I see...

Go bust out Sword and Fist and cry me a river about your wasted investment in books.

I have to agree and slightly disagree with you. Any resistance I might have to 4th edition has nothing to do with buying new books. I figure that I'm usually buying a new book at least every other month if not more often, so that's not my gripe.

I am worried, perhaps illogically, that in order to justify 4th edition, or a revised edition, or whatever, that rather than fine tuning things that should be fine tuned, major changes will be made.

I'll buy a revised edition, but I really want it to be pretty much the same as 3.5, or rather, no more of a change than 3rd edition was as it was changed to 3.5. I don't want entire character concepts that are possible under 3.5 to not work (at least not for years when all the new splat books come out) under a new edition.

I want to still be able to pick up a 3.5 adventure, for example, and be able to run it with almost no conversion if I wanted to, because all the mechanics work the same.

I really don't mind if they want to put out a revised edition that maybe consolidates some skills, streamlines the "polymorph fix," and integrates things like magic item "levels" and the like that have come along later. I just don't want something that will do away with skill points, feats, core classes, PrC, or the like, because that will be less of a refinement of a system that I like and more of a new system that I'll have to tinker with for a while to see if I do like it.

Anyway, the minor disagreement is illustrated with Sword and Fist. While much of that book has been reprinted, there are still classes that weren't updated, and the mechanics are such that you can still play, for example, a Ghostwalker, and not have to worry about it not being compatible with 3.5 rules.

Scarab Sages

Sean, Minister of KtSP wrote:
A very interesting assertion, Stedd. How do you define the internet revolution "really taking off"?

While it's true that the internet was a phenomenon before 3.0 was released, it wasn't present in nearly 'everyones' home as it is today. You'll notice that my previous post asserts the role of messageboards, blogs, forums, etc in the rapid dissemination of 3.0 "problems". This was not present in previous editions, ie 2nd ed. Thus, the development of 3.0 was not as a result of MASSIVE and RAPID feedback from the community, but rather a slower development from a much smaller community (dragon submitters and convention goers).

I too was a BBS goer (commodore 64!) but lets face it, the communication and responses were nowhere near what they are today.
4th ed. MAY end up being a decent product. Paizo (and Malhavoc press and others) has shown us what community feedback with the publisher can accomplish. There are 'enough' people at wizards R&D who still listen to the community to make it possible.

Of course, like any prudent consumer, I'll see what they come up with before I buy it.


Stedd Grimwold wrote:
I too was a BBS goer (commodore 64!) but lets face it, the communication and responses were nowhere near what they are today.

To be sure. As I said, I sometimes have a difficult time telling what the revolution looked like from the outside. I was in too deep.


KnightErrantJR wrote:


I have to agree and slightly disagree with you. Any resistance I might have to 4th edition has nothing to do with buying new books. I figure that I'm usually buying a new book at least every other month if not more often, so that's not my gripe.

I am worried, perhaps illogically, that in order to justify 4th edition, or a revised edition, or whatever, that rather than fine tuning things that should be fine tuned, major changes will be made.

<snip>

Here here, I feel the exact same way. Want me to buy 4E books? WotC needs to simple do two things:

1) Don't make it a huge change. Make it more along the lines of 3.0-3.5E. There're conversions, yes, but not hard or extremely difficult ones. Heck, the only thing I had to do for 3.0 material was figure out a proper DR, redo skill points and feats, and re-configure a few special abilities in some of the 3.0E prestige classes. Some were a pain, like the Forsaker, others, like the Ghostwalker, really wasn't so tough.

2) Convert my books (or what needs to be converted in my 3.5E books) to 4E, like they did with the "3.5E Update Booklet" on their website with Monster Manual 2, Fiend Folio, Manual of the Planes, Epic Level Handbook, Monsters of Faerun, and Deities&Demigods. (though their lazy selves forgot to do Book of Vile Darkness, even to this day).

That'll definitely get me to swithc to 4E and keep shelling them money.

Sovereign Court

Who cares?

Dear people at Paizo, I'd appreciate very much a function to automatically suppress everything 4th edition related in these boards...


Any discussion pertaining to 4th edition, as any rumor-mongering related to it, is likely to bring its advent closer. So we should all fall quiet and move away from here, else we wake up the beast and actually make it happen... So shush and stop thinking about such a thing. We would not want WotC that we are ripe for the picking, would we?


KnightErrantJR wrote:

I'll buy a revised edition, but I really want it to be pretty much the same as 3.5, or rather, no more of a change than 3rd edition was as it was changed to 3.5. I don't want entire character concepts that are possible under 3.5 to not work (at least not for years when all the new splat books come out) under a new edition.

While I have a neutral opinion on this subject (the degree to which 4.0 might diverge from 3.5), I tend to think that their likely will be a GREAT MANY THINGS (said in my best Darth Sidious voice) different in a new version. I could be wrong - I'm only speculating - but I see mechanics in the new Star Wars Saga edition that are superior to 3.5, and would be easily integrated into a fantasy genre.

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