Speculations


4th Edition

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

There is some interesting speculations about 4e over on the Necro Boards...keep reading...

At two years per AP I have more than enough material to keep me out of the 4e market.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Would you still consider yourself in the market for 3.5 material after 4.0 comes out?

--Erik


Even if 4th edition knocks it out of the park, I'll continue to support 3.5 products as well, just so I have a chance to use these fiddy tree 3.5 textbooks I bought!


Erik Mona wrote:

Would you still consider yourself in the market for 3.5 material after 4.0 comes out?

--Erik

Speaking just for myself, totally. I'm really happy with 3.5.


Kamelion wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:

Would you still consider yourself in the market for 3.5 material after 4.0 comes out?

--Erik

Speaking just for myself, totally. I'm really happy with 3.5.

I'll echo that thought. Unless I win the lottery, I'll never have enough spare time to play through the vast amounts of 3.0/3.5 materials I already own; not to mention the Pathfinder/GameMastery stuff coming out soon. Not that money is a big problem for me, but I've spent far too much on the hobby these past few years to just throw it all away b/c 4.0 is coming out.

Besides, if Paizo bet the farm on 3.5, I'd stay w/ them on principle alone. And if they managed to buy, say, Greyhawk from WOTC, then I'd be a Paizo "lifer" :) Well, I'm probably already one of those...

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Erik Mona wrote:

Would you still consider yourself in the market for 3.5 material after 4.0 comes out?

--Erik

No.


All "sky is falling" predictions or speculation aside, I think that the 3e/4e issue is really interesting from a sales and marketing angle. In a nutshell, I don't think that I (or gamers like me) are going to be the target audience for 4e. I recall reading somewhere that when 3e was being designed, the "old school" demographic was disregarded for the most part as they were deemed unlikely to upgrade whatever 3e looked like. I find myself in a similar situation now (even though I have upgraded with every edition from OD&D to now).

I'm sure that WotC have given this considerable thought, and it's an interesting condundrum. I like 3e/d20 because it is so flexible and can be scaled up or down in complexity to suit my tastes of the moment. I can use it to run ultra-complex games using variant rules out the wazoo, I can scale it back to run games akin to the Basic/Expert rules for my kids, I can crack open C&C and use old 1e and 2e material with little to no hassle, and any point between. If 4e is different to this, why would I change over, given that I like how things are? And if 4e is similar to this, why would I change over, given that I already have something that does this already?

As I said, I am sure that WotC have thought about this issue already. It might mean that they won't be in any rush to release 4e. It might mean that they will target it at a fresh demographic. It might mean they will ensure that it is closely compatible with 3e. In the latter case, I'd probably give some items a look, assuming that they didn't duplicate things that I already have.

In any case, I'd certainly be happy to keep on purchasing material that is 3e-compatible. Either way, it'll be interesting to see how WotC tackle this issue.

Liberty's Edge

Erik Mona wrote:

Would you still consider yourself in the market for 3.5 material after 4.0 comes out?

--Erik

Yes.

I don't want to get into a discussion with nobody, and I'm as done with the whole 4e. speculation thing as the next guy, buy I'm sticking with 3.5 at this point.
I can't really say what the hell I will do, and I don't want to eat pie with Sebastian,... ;) I just really really really cringe at the thought of starting the whole book collection process over again from square one.

Liberty's Edge

And to tell you the truth, Dungeon and Dragon magazines probably influenced my buying behaviors with respect to game books as much as anything else. Honestly, now that Pathfinder is NOT going to be directly intertwined with WOTC products other than the OGL stuff, there's other buying options out there that interest me more.
The Runelords AP isn't going to feature npc's based on that Drow of the Underdark book, or Complete Champion, or Complete anything, so ergo I don't care as much as I might have. I like monster books too, and I might score some more of them from WOTC, but I'm done with it for the most part.

Liberty's Edge

The Jade wrote:
Even if 4th edition knocks it out of the park, I'll continue to support 3.5 products as well, just so I have a chance to use these fiddy tree 3.5 textbooks I bought!

fiddy tree? fiddy fo.


v. 3.5 all the way


Erik Mona wrote:

Would you still consider yourself in the market for 3.5 material after 4.0 comes out?

--Erik

Yes. Especially since I have over $500 invested in 3.5 edition. Besides, if I really want to I can convert what is in 3.5 to 4.0 if I choose to use that edition.

Dark Archive

~evil laughter~ Soon all will become my 4.0 edition minions. Especially with the hypnotic pattern that will be embedded into it!!! I will RULE the world!!!


Erik Mona wrote:

Would you still consider yourself in the market for 3.5 material after 4.0 comes out?

--Erik

Whatever rules you guys are using for Pathfinder, I'll buy. I only have MM,PHB, and DMG.


Erik Mona wrote:

Would you still consider yourself in the market for 3.5 material after 4.0 comes out?

--Erik

Definitely. It took my group a while to go from 2E to 3.5 (we pretty well skipped 3.0 altogether). With the collection of books and materials we have, I echo the others here--it would take me a lifetime to exhaust what I already have...but I would alwasy be open to more OPTIONS in 3.5, so long as it doesn't mean a radical shift in the game.

4E would have to be pretty darn spectacular to get us to change our minds. Not to mention, none of us have been overly enamored/impressed with WotC over the past coupe years...so we would be hard pressed to give them any more money.

Sovereign Court

All of the above mentioned opinions (except Sebastian's) describe my mind on this topic quite well:

I stick to 3.5 and hope that Paizo will do so for a long time, too.

Greetings,
Günther

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Erik Mona wrote:

Would you still consider yourself in the market for 3.5 material after 4.0 comes out?

--Erik

Yes, I will continue to purchase material compatible with the revised version of TWMPFRPG. Especially if it's from Paizo, Necromancer, or Goodman Games.

The Exchange

Erik Mona wrote:

Would you still consider yourself in the market for 3.5 material after 4.0 comes out?

--Erik

Hmm, interesting question. Are we to suspect that OGL may not be available for 4E, which would seriously cramp Paizo's style?

As to the answer - depends on whether 4E is any good. Like others, I have a fortune invested in 3.5, so I would not welcome it. 3.5 works perfectly well for my purposes, so I don't feel a pressing gamer need to take it up. But I thought that about 3.0, but that was streets ahead of 2. And I converted to 3.5 too. But I'm much less keen on buying everything that comes out now, and I might not want to junk all of the stuff I have now.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Erik Mona wrote:

Would you still consider yourself in the market for 3.5 material after 4.0 comes out?

After some discussion, my gaming group decided that we'd only consider switching to 4e if it were OGL.

But even if it is, we'd likely continue playing 3.5 for a long while.

-Skeld

Sovereign Court Contributor

Would I still be in the market for 3.5?

Probably.

Would I update to 4.0?

Possibly.

If 4.0 comes out and is open license and all the third party companies switch over, well, I may be stuck. Like most people, I probably have enough 3.5 material to run for the rest of my life, but I'm enamoured of ongoing support.

If 4.0 comes out and some quality companies stick to 3.5, My group will probably stay with them, both because we don't want to reinvest and scrap our old books, and because we want to support companies like Paizo. This is especially true if 4.0 is not an open license game.

If 4.0 comes out and is way better than anyone could have hoped, with massive improvements I never dreamed possible, I'll probably switch as well. I'm not counting on this though.

My hope is that if 4.0 is released, it isn't really super awesome, and that Paizo and Green Ronin and Malhavoc and Necromancer etc. work in the original unified spirit of the OGL and produce excellent products and enough fans stick with them to make a go of it.

OTOH; despite the fact that I think that 3.5 is an excellent game system, I have started to feel the stress on the system that various expansions have created. If it continues to expand at its current rate, it will need an overhaul within 2 years to rebalnce everything and unify some of the corner case rules. I'd love for this to not negate all of the current products, but that seems unlikely. I believe and hope that by being limited to the SRD, the third party companies can actually maintain the stable part of the rules, and still build some neat innovations.

And, I am a small-time freelancer who wants to break into the industry. Truth be told, despite my personal feelings, I'll probably go where there's an audience that generates a need for material that I can write for money. (I just really want that place to Paizo!)

Liberty's Edge

On that note, do you think a "core overhaul" might be possible, that didn't negate all the splatbooks? Hmmmm......
(rhetorical really)


Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:

Would you still consider yourself in the market for 3.5 material after 4.0 comes out?

--Erik

Hmm, interesting question. Are we to suspect that OGL may not be available for 4E, which would seriously cramp Paizo's style?

As to the answer - depends on whether 4E is any good. Like others, I have a fortune invested in 3.5, so I would not welcome it. 3.5 works perfectly well for my puposes, so I don't feel a pressing gamer need to take it up. But I thought that about 3.0, but that was streets ahead of 2. And I converted to 3.5 too. But I'm much less keen on buying everything that comes out now, and I might not want to junk all of the stuff I have now.

Aubrey,

That was exactly the question that crossed my mind. Kind of suggests that either 4e is not going to be OGL or Paizo might not go that way. either way, since Eric has a good relationship with WOTC, it is strong suggestion of 4e happening sooner rather than later.

As for whether I move? Well lets be honest, though I have a stack of 3.5e stuff and dont actually need any 4e stuff I'll probably buy the PHB under the auspices of having a look to see what changed, then I'll but the DMG to see what happened here, then the MM and pretty soon I'll have a look at the rest.

What would stop me? Well if Paizo stays 3.5 and I can still purchase 3.5 core books like PHB and MMs new (I dont want my core books from Ebay) I will stay 3.5. If not and if the changes are good I will buy 4e and also 3.5 and update.

Elcian


Heathansson wrote:

On that note, do you think a "core overhaul" might be possible, that didn't negate all the splatbooks? Hmmmm......

(rhetorical really)

More than likely possible but more possibly unlikely.

Elcian

(Does that actually make sense!)

Dark Archive

Erik Mona wrote:

Would you still consider yourself in the market for 3.5 material after 4.0 comes out?

--Erik

It really depends on the mechanics proposed with the 4.0 set of rules.

If they are along the same lines of the latest supplements (heavy use of grid and minis, power-playing core-classes, too many silly feats, not enough detail on some aspectcs of the game, etc), I'll stick with 3.5.
As many of the others have already said I have a veritable loadboat of adventures (thank you, Dungeon!) supplemental rules, adventure settings, and other stuff too strange to mention, enough to keep me going for years - not to mention that as a DM I can always provide for my own new adventures.

So, if I feel that the game is being "dumbed down" or getting even more unbalanced towards PP, no thanks.

Moreover, a large bias regarding me and my group moving to 4.0 will be determined by support given from companies such as Paizo, Green Ronin, Necromancer Press, and others.

The Exchange

Perhaps. I know that the Paizoites have a good relationship with WotC but the mood music coming from Wizards does seem to be along the lines of "ALL COMPETITION MUST BE ELIMINATED". I'd feel a bit queasy with that view, if true, even if I had a shared history with the guys who were trying to put me out of a job. I'm not big on conspiracy theories, but Erik's question did seem odd. And yes, Elcian, you have probably given my response as well as your own in your post.

Sovereign Court Contributor

Heathansson wrote:

On that note, do you think a "core overhaul" might be possible, that didn't negate all the splatbooks? Hmmmm......

(rhetorical really)

I think it would be difficult, but could be done. If they did a more extensive update rulebook that cost $50 and covered most of the splatbooks, I bet a lot of people would like that better than a short freebie that didn't really give enough info.

Or maybe they could do a series of update books. One for the PHB, DMG, PHBII and DMG II, one for the Monster books, one for the races of books, one for each setting. These books could detail changes only... kind of like a hardcover errata book.

Of course, most people would eventually buy the revised version.

Still, I doubt WotC would see it as financially worthwhile.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

With regard to Erik's question...it is unlikely I or my group would switch, at least not for a while. I have a lot of money invested in v3.5, and as the DM I also tend to drive what the rest of my group does. They're happy with what we have now, and I have enough material for my current campaign that it could last years before it's finished (at the rate we're able to play).

Down the road I might look into v4.0, but it would take a lot to get me to switch wholesale, and by extension my group wouldn't switch without me unless we had a DM change, and that's unlikely. I'd be even less likely to switch if v4.0 were not OGL and Paizo was unable to produce content for it.


Erik Mona wrote:

Would you still consider yourself in the market for 3.5 material after 4.0 comes out?

--Erik

As Paizo goes, so goes my nation.

But in general, my answer is yes, I'd still be in the market for 3.5 stuff. More importantly I probably would not be interested in 4.0 material.


I think my group isn't interested in buying 4.0 products. But I have to committ it is somehow interesting how such a thing would look like.


I am "still in the market" for 1e products, so yeah I'll still be interested in 3.5 after 4e hits.


IF there's an SRD for version 4.0, I'd convert. If they don't release the core rules in the SRD, and leave third-party companies with 3.5, I'll probably stick to 3.5.


When 4e comes out, I'm pretty sure I'll be playing 4e. I've been an eager adopter of each new edition, and I don't see that stopping any time soon. I love trying out new rules.

I find it hard to believe that 4e will be that different from 3e. Therefore, I expect the OGL can be adapted to make adventures which are fully compatible with a non-OGL 4e. (It's already been adapted to make OSRIC, which emulates 1st ed.) I hope Paizo moves to 4e if/when the time comes, or I will fear for its future.

Now, if WOTC makes a 4e that doesn't feel like D&D, I might consider sticking with 3.5. But I don't think they're that stupid.

I don't think they're stupid at all, really.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
I'm not big on conspiracy theories, but Erik's question did seem odd. And yes, Elcian, you have probably given my response as well as your own in your post.

Ack! Please don't try to read anything into my post. I asked the question out of simple curiosity.

--Erik


I think I'm likely to buy any 4th edition, just to see what the rules are like. If the changes are similar to those between 1st and 2nd edition then I'd probably carry on buying 3.5 material quite happily. If they're larger, that makes it more of a problem.

I suppose the truthful answer is that I'll carry on buying quality material, whichever edition it's meant for. From the things I've seen so far I'll be a Paizo customer whatever happens with 4th edition.


Erik Mona wrote:

Would you still consider yourself in the market for 3.5 material after 4.0 comes out?

--Erik

If the material is good, I don't see why I would not continue buying Pathfinder or GameMastery books (were they to stick to 3.5).

I am less than enthusiastic with 4.0 and, if at all, I would probably only buy the PHB so as to be able to join a table using the newer edition. Otherwise, for my enjoyment and the campaigns I could DM, I would feel very fine using 3.5 (providing I am still able to find good quality material to buy).

Bocklin


I will support elegance and good design. Each iteration so far has been a step in the right direction. I will eagerly grab the next edition and use what I can from it, unless it makes some sort of collossal blunder or misstep.

I hope to enjoy D&D 4, 5, 6 and whatever else comes up.


Bocklin wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:

Would you still consider yourself in the market for 3.5 material after 4.0 comes out?

--Erik

My group didn't like the changes between 1st and 2nd edition when it came out, given that it was similar to 1st edition we just bought some of the supplement materials and adapted them. Also I tracked down any 1st edtition stuff I could that I didnt have and bought that too. When 3 & then 3.5 came out we liked it and we bought it (& stopped playing 1st edition)

It depends entirely on how good a game 4th ed is. If it is 'better' than 3.5 - No, if not- yes (I realise better is entirely subjective)


Hopefully 4th ed. will have the same colour scheme as the Gleemax site.

:|

Liberty's Edge

Kruelaid wrote:

Hopefully 4th ed. will have the same colour scheme as the Gleemax site.

:|

Oh yes, definitely....

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Erik Mona wrote:
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
I'm not big on conspiracy theories, but Erik's question did seem odd. And yes, Elcian, you have probably given my response as well as your own in your post.

Ack! Please don't try to read anything into my post. I asked the question out of simple curiosity.

--Erik

I didn't. I thought it was a fair business question. You are in the precarious position of trying to make money in an industry laden with random variables: when will 4e be released? how different will 4e be? how quickly will the paizo community move to 4e? what exactly does a kobold taste like in the new campaign setting?


Erik Mona wrote:
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
I'm not big on conspiracy theories, but Erik's question did seem odd. And yes, Elcian, you have probably given my response as well as your own in your post.

Ack! Please don't try to read anything into my post. I asked the question out of simple curiosity.

--Erik

Eric,

Well that will teach you. Dont you realise we hang on your every word, then over analyse these looking for some deeper meaning?

Still, the answer stands. I will support Paizo, 4e or 3.5e its the quality that counts.

Elcian

Sovereign Court

Erik Mona wrote:


Ack! Please don't try to read anything into my post. I asked the question out of simple curiosity.

--Erik

Too late! :p


Erik Mona wrote:

Would you still consider yourself in the market for 3.5 material after 4.0 comes out?

--Erik

A 4th Edition without Paizo is not a 4th Edition I'd be in the market for.


DitheringFool wrote:
what exactly does a kobold taste like in the new campaign setting?

That's easy, mate. Kobolds taste like crawfish. Here in the nine hells we consider kobold etouffee to be quite the delicacy.

El Skootro

Scarab Sages

I'm not going to stop using the books I have anytime in the future, I have too much money invested in them. I buy bits and pieces from all over. I buy what I like and hope that my GM will like it too. If not, I just read and keep it for when I run games.
If WotC get's rid of the OGl in 4e (if that even comes out, since I'm still abiding by WotC saying there is no 4e) I will not buy as much for sure. I really don't like those kinds of business tactics.

Liberty's Edge

Erik Mona wrote:

Would you still consider yourself in the market for 3.5 material after 4.0 comes out?

--Erik

If you (means PAIZO) do, I'll stick to 3.5 as well, as I totally love this system. It gives me enough freedom to do everything I imagine.

I am too old to change to another system and with the APs, Ptolus and Eberron stuff I have enough material for 5 lives!
A system without support from PAIZO is nothing for me and if this system comes from those guys who don't tell us customers, buyers, fans anything about their plans - well... who needs them?!

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

I'll likely never upgrade to a 4.0. So if the market supports 3.5 stuff it will continue to get my money.

Part of the reason I'd not change to a 4.0 is that there's no publication like Dragon to help push the change for me. Ironic, neh?

Dark Archive

I will probably not upgrade to 4th edition if it is a general ruleset like 3rd edition is. My guess is that WotC will not do another general ruleset again for 4th edition. My guess is that it if and when 4th edition comes out they may make it more setting specific. A Forgotten Realms players handbook, Eberron players handbook, etc. I believe this partially because I do not think many people (at least not the numbers 3rd edition had) will fall into buying all the splat books again. People (including myself) appear to be tired of these especially with all the money involved. This model allows them to make you want to get the next book for your favorite campaign setting instead of the next general splat book that may or may not break the balance of the game. They will probably sell licenses that are worth something and not make 4th edition OGL, hence no flooding of the market and more purchases to go to them.

Now if they do something similar to what I said above I might want to buy some 4th edition books because it is a campaign world I would be interested in and would be more focused on what I wanted in that regard, but another set of general rules to play D&D, no. D&D 3.5 is great in that regard and we already have endless options on changing it. We also already have all these others companies making great things for it.

I will continue to support 3.5 and besides, like everyone else has said, I have a fortune invested in 3rd edition. Can not afford to ever do that again.

BTW, the Rules Compendium is coming out in October. For those who were talking about 3.5 rules update and such you may find that in the not so distant future.


My friends and I discuss this infrequently. We have such a huge investment in 3.5 that we cannot see purchasing all over again with 4th edition. We will leave that for our kids to discover.

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