Is it too late to drop firearms from the Pathfinder world?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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I'm probably in minority here, but having just read the summary of the 5/8 weekly chat I'm extremely disappointed to learn that firearms will be in the pathfinder world.

While in terms of gameplay I don't think they're necessarily unbalancing, they typically have a significant impact on the campaign world. While the Paizo team is saying they won't be seen everywhere, invariably if there is an adventure where an author fixates on that aspect, likely from a warfare or naval perspective, the tone of the setting can be significantly impacted, especially since the world will be developed through the adventures.

It's like setting the level of magic in a campaign, which Paizo is saying will be "mid-magic". It's easier to add elements in than it is to pull them out. If firearms aren't going to be a significant or obtrusive part of the setting, why include them? Individual DMs can add them in as they see fit. Trying to strip them out could be a much larger undertaking for a DM, especially if Pathfinder morphs from a medieval setting to an Age-of-Sail kind of setting.

PLEASE lose the guns!

BPorter

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Dropping them is far easier for the individual DM than adding them.

Please add Firearms to Pathfinder so I can have a uniform set of useful rules from the best Developers in the industry! Right now, as a DM with players interested in Firearms for STAP I have to pick between dozens of rules, from a myriad of source books...

The Exchange

DitheringFool wrote:

Dropping them is far easier for the individual DM than adding them.

Here's another vote against guns. While I have a passionate love for them in this world, they won't be available in my campaigns. Heck, I'm not even crazy about tanglefoot bags and thunderstones.

Dropping them is probably simple in terms of game mechanics (but not if they're a core element of a given NPC, group or encounter), but the pervasive tone of the world changes with the introduction of firearms. It just isn't fantasy anymore. E.G.G. said much the same thing about putting psionics in 1st Ed. That's a much harder change to overcome than subbing out a Wand of Magic Missiles for an M-16. (Anyone remember Bored Flak the Bolt Lobber?)

For those like Mr. Fool who want good firearms rules, an appendix or supplement would be OK, I guess.

Looking forward to August, with or without guns.

Tom


Another vote here for no guns. At the very least, include them via some sort of campaign enhancement article, but don't have them as a normal part of the campaign world.

Liberty's Edge

I like guns in D&D, but if everyone else doesn't, I'd rather Paizo made tons of money and kept putting out cool stuff.

Scarab Sages

No guns in my campaigns, but having that option is a wonderful idea for those that like the idea of guns in their respective campaigns.

Thoth-Amon

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Another vote for no guns:
Flavorwise, it hurts the world, as medieval fantasy shouldn't include gunpowder, and guns don't interact properly with D&D's AC system.

Besides the impact on flavor, the longbow is the ranged-weapon standard for D&D. Guns that are no better don't feel like guns, and guns that are better are unbalancing, as without exception, the PCs will aquire some if they are openly available.

I realize DMs can remove firearms from adventures, but if they are largely integral to the setting, this gets more difficult.

If firearms are present, they should not be available on the open market (i.e. only one dwarvish/gnomish enclave has them, and too few to be smuggled or stolen), so that the few captured as loot will be used up and unreplacable. This also helps keep Firearms an 'exotic weapon'.


NO GUNS


Here is another vote for no guns!!!! My players will see guns and then all want guns, and I would rather not see that as I have kept guns out of my campaigns so far.


Another vote for "no guns in my pseudo-medieval fantasy" please.

Swashbuckling pirates? Guns, yes.

Wizards, rogues, gnomes and elves? Guns, no.

Thank you for your time. :)

-The Gneech


Ross Byers wrote:


Flavorwise, it hurts the world, as medieval fantasy shouldn't include gunpowder, and guns don't interact properly with D&D's AC system.

Not every D&D campaign is medieval fantasy - that is only one possible theme (e.g. Eberron). People have been complaining that guns will destroy the flavour of the campaign, but perhaps we had better wait and see what the flavour of the campaign is first, don't you think? I trust the creative minds that are developing this project and if they think that firearms will enhance the feel of the world, then I say go for it.

I'm curious about your latter statement. In what way do guns not interact properly with D&D's AC system? They work just fine in D20 Modern and D20 Call of Cthulhu, both of which use the same AC system.

Ross Byers wrote:


Besides the impact on flavor, the longbow is the ranged-weapon standard for D&D. Guns that are no better don't feel like guns, and guns that are better are unbalancing, as without exception, the PCs will aquire some if they are openly available.

Why do you think that guns are, or even should, be better? We're likely talking about matchlock, or at best, flintlock weapons. Their damage is, I believe, 1d10, but the time to reload is prohibitive. A longbow will still dish out far more damage per round than a primitive firearm so I think their status as the ranged weapon standard is secure. I think that there is a common misperception about the lethality of early firearms. They really weren't much more lethal than bows or swords, just a lot easier to use and required very little training (i.e. simple weapons).


Heathansson wrote:
I like guns in D&D, but if everyone else doesn't, I'd rather Paizo made tons of money and kept putting out cool stuff.

I like guns in D&D as a relatively rare element (much like Psionics). That said, rules for guns run the gamut.... from the Ptolus rules (perhaps too permissive for many) to the Skull and Bones set from Green Ronin which emphasize time required to reload. I like some elements of both.... certainly the skull & bones rules set is more realistic, but the ptolus rule set for guns is arguably more fun.

I'd be curious as to whether Paizo is adopting a rules set from an OGL product, developing their own, or using the set in the DMG (I believe there is one, though I'm not sure if it made it into the SRD, I'd have to check).

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm against guns as a part of the setting as well. But I would be all for an article on how to integrate guns into a later AP for the Pathfinder world.

-Skeld

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

My vote is no guns in my campaigns too. That is very different from the fact that I would really like to see what Paizo does with them.

Maybe I'm a pushover DM...one of my guys has expressed an interest. They fit the STAP atmosphere so I said I would look into it. To me it is no different than adding Ninjas and Samurai, both of which are in my current campaign. It's a matter of game mechanic and description. My point is that it is easier to exclude a mechanic or change the description, than to make them up.

Considering Paizo's track record, I have no fear that any additional material will not hinder differing playing styles.


I don't care if there are guns or not, provided any firearms rules that are used are both good and unobtrusive. Most of the versions I've seen for D&D-esque d20 are far too complex.

But I have to address this:

Ross Byers wrote:
Flavorwise, it hurts the world, as medieval fantasy shouldn't include gunpowder, and guns don't interact properly with D&D's AC system.

Flavourwise, it changes the world, but different does not necessarily equate to worse. And firearms are no worse a fit for the AC system than are crossbows.

Ross Byers wrote:
Besides the impact on flavor, the longbow is the ranged-weapon standard for D&D. Guns that are no better don't feel like guns, and guns that are better are unbalancing, as without exception, the PCs will aquire some if they are openly available.

Make them Exotic weapons, and they can be more powerful than longbows without balance issues. Although typically firearms rules don't allow iterative attacks, or worse require several rounds of reload time. Do that, and you can increase the damage by several dice types before they even come close to the effectiveness of a longbow.

Furthermore, historically firearms became prevalent not because they were better than the longbow (they weren't - early firearms were several orders of magnitude worse), but rather that they were simple to use. To get a good longbowman required that you started training his grandfather, while any fool could get reasonably good with a gun quite quickly.

Dark Archive

I have stated before that I did not ever really play second edition: I pretty much played first edition straight through until the advent of 3rd edition. What follows was not my only reason for disliking second edition, but it did color my first impression. On the day second edition was released, I convinced my parents to drive me 35 miles to the nearest bookstore that would have the PHB and DMG. I beelined straight to the D&D section of the store, eagerly picked up the PHB, and opened to a random page. The page happened to be the standard equipment lists, and the first thing I saw was the listing for the arquebus, blunderbus, etc., and I was instantly disappointed.

If I'm playing D20 modern, or playing a Rennaissance-type one-shot, firearms are okay. However, I really don't like having them in my regular game.

So, if it matters, my vote is very much against having guns.


for years the longbow was mmore than a match for a gunpowder weapon. It had greater range, higher rate of fire, greater accuracy and did more damage.

The flaws with longbows is that 1) it took years of practice to gear up to the pull of a longbow strong enough to pierce the armour of knights.

2) an effective bow needed skill and the right material to make.

Gunpowder weapons were conversley easy to operate (push this in, light this once pointed that way). In short time you could have an operational group of "soldiers".

In massed ranks the gunpowder weapon put out enough shot to batter enough of the foe down (plus the noise and smoke scared horses).

They were also relatively easy to make en masse.

So, you went from a core of trained and experienced archers with well crafted bows to masses of commoners pointing a smoking barrell.

With this easy to train group the money supplied the means to improve the old gunpowder weapons and start the progression to where we are today.


I am not too worried; somewhere on these boards one of the Paizones said that guns would be there but small.

This leads me to believe they will be easy to discard if you want; I for one will keep them and give them a shot (pun intended)

Dark Archive Contributor

Wow, this is an interesting response...

Considering the amount of firearms we're going to allow in the campaign setting, it'll be ridiculously easy for you to rule them out of existence.

And no, as much as I'd love to see that adventure in print, we're extremely unlikely to print a module that fixates on firearms. Mmm... gnomes with guns... ;D

(Why yes, I did lead the bloodless and extremely easy non-battle for inclusion of firearms into the campaign setting. Why do you ask?) :D

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

...ok, so if I am not a fan of firearms in my fantasy, why would I consider letting a player be a marksman/pistoleer/rifelman/whatever?

Easy. It does not seem that out of place to consider a metalic tube crafted to violently propel a single shot in a world where the very fabric of reality can be manipulated into allowing someone to discharge a bolt of lightning from a stick.

In a place where arcane and divine magic exist, minor alchemical weapons cannot really compete. Anyone might be able to pick up a loaded gun and pull the trigger, but (1) where did the gun come from? (2) where did the "bullet" come from? (3) where did the blackpowder come from? (4) why would anyone go through that much trouble when you have access to magic?

Plus, the player is screwing himself anyway - there is no chance of ever finding a sweet random treasure...

Liberty's Edge

No guns, please... for the real world. :p

Guns, in Pathfinder... I'm cool with that, though, and supportive of the idea.

Considering that firearms and flamethrowers were a product of the middle ages, I'm about sick of people saying that firearms have no place in D&D. If you don't like 'em, don't use 'em--but don't deny that they belong in a medieval setting.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Mike McArtor wrote:
Mmm... gnomes with guns... ;D

But of course...since your father died in that tragic gnome-flinging elevator accident, you were sent into the world to validate the "benefits" of projectile weapons.


I use guns in my current campaign, using several variants combined into a sloppy, yet servicable hodgepodge. The factors that keep them fairly balanced include:

*guns are exotic (both for proficiency and occurrence)
*good, standardized ammo (let alone magical) is expensive and hard to find
*low damage dice
*high critical multipliers
*chance of failure, including jamming
*maintenance
*reload time

All of these factors combine to ensure that not everyone wants to become a gunslinger.

If its not readily apparent, I can't wait to see what Paizo does with boomsticks in their upcoming campaign. I vote "yes".


Pro-firearms vote... and pro-fireworks. Thank you, ancient China. It won't hurt the flavor of the medieval setting any more than 9th-level spells, and firearms are more realistic for the setting.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Yay guns! I love guns and always incorporate them in my campaign settings. I blame spelljammer.

Liberty's Edge

DitheringFool wrote:
In a place where arcane and divine magic exist, minor alchemical weapons cannot really compete. Anyone might be able to pick up a loaded gun and pull the trigger, but (1) where did the gun come from? (2) where did the "bullet" come from? (3) where did the blackpowder come from? (4) why would anyone go through that much trouble when you have access to magic?

The line of thought only holds water if the setting is completely inundated in magic--where commoners have ready access to minor magic items for all necessary chores, where resurrection is a matter of course and kings live for centuries, and standing armies have regular dragon riders and sorcerer artillerists, where golems and undead perform automated tasks giving rise to unions from displaced workers....

I think that making magic so common that it would disrupt the invention of firearms does more to destroy the fantasy milieu than does firearms, themselves.

Contributor

BPorter wrote:


PLEASE lose the guns!

So, I haven't listened to the weekly chats, but it sounds like this whole guns thing got overstated. Firearms are always a heated topic and people always have strong opinions on guns in fantasy… that’s why there’s so many Dragon articles that harp on the topic. Let me see if I can assuage some of your concerns.

Will there be guns in Pathfinder land? Well, we're planning on having a country that's a bit more on the technological edge than some of the usual fantasy kingdoms. And largely that's because we thought it'd be cool to have a printing press or two and a few other bits of 1600's/1700's technology: Like the occasional cannon or gun. But don't worry, we're not going wild-wild west here, we're not even going Iron Kingdoms. We're talking large, barely hand-held weapons and maybe a few pistol-like smaller versions. They’re unwieldy but a lot easier for the common man to learn how to use than shooting a magic missile.

That being said, since when are PCs "the common man?" If you’re a hero, you're going to have access to way better weapons that aren't loud and smoky and are less likely to blow up in your hand. And that's even if you get your hands on such weapons. These are incredibly expensive curiosities from a region that's likely to be as small as a country or two.

In general, we expect guns in our world to be just about as pervasive as they are in Forgotten Realms (Lantan and some southern countries), Ravenloft (Lamordia, Dementilieu, Mordent, others), Planescape (by extension of the previous two), Eberron (I don't know, but there's a warforged with a gun-hand on one cover). As for the impact these weapons have on these worlds, that's up to you. We're not focusing on them, but they’re there. It's kind of the same take you get in the Forgotten Realms, guns exist there, in massive numbers if you consider the East too, but when you think FR, you don't think, "Oh yeah, that campaign setting with the guns." In fact, rules for guns are in the Dungeon Master’s Guide, and it’s probably a bad idea for us to come out the door with a cold hard ban on an element it the core books (lasers are another discussion). So, the option’s out there if you want to make a character who has a gun, or run a big-game hunter style adventure, or have a pirate ship with a cannon, but it's not a theme or even really much of a design decision.

At the risk of sounding to PR-preachy, allowing for options is kind of the core idea we're building into our world. If you want a style of play, you're going to be able to find it somewhere—so expect dinosaurs, expect Asian adventures, expect swashbuckling, expect Vikings, expect spying, expect guns. By warrant, does that mean you’re going to want to base your campaign in obscure region X, Y, or Z? Maybe not if they’re not your thing. But focus areas A, B, and C— the ones with all the traditional, medieval-style, hardcore D&D swords, magic, dragons, etc—are definitely going to be right up your alley

And actually, now that I'm thinking about it, we have the first few Pathfinder adventures in now, and Crown of the Kobold King, Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale, and Seven Swords of Sin, and—as far as I know—none of these adventures feature so much as a bullet. Turns out our writers—and we as gamers too—like our fantasy to stay… well… pretty fantastical.

So by in large, to sum up, don't worry about it. It’s a small thing and a fireball is always better anyway.

The following link might put you more into the mindset of what we're talking about. This is the only thing I found that even sort of nods toward our ideas without going the full-on flint-lock/wheel-lock route (which we might get to a version even in the world eventually). Turns out that when you search for anything with the word "gun" on the web you get a ton of chuff. (http://riv.co.nz/rnza/hist/gun/firstgun.htm)


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

As far as I'm concerned, put them in as Mike was talking about...something that's rare. That way any DM that doesn't like them can just not use them. Replace them with crossbows or something for the cultures that use them.

In my own homebrew, guns are only manufactured by one culture, who jealously guards their gun sales, because it gives them an advantage. That culture is generally looked on with suspicion by much of the rest of the world anyway. One of my empires, that used to be a continent-spanning empire until being reduced to its current size, views anyone that loses their life because of a gun as having lost their soul, so they naturally look at guns as a vile blasphemy and seek to eradicate them. Guns are therefore considered black market items in most of the main continent, and those who use them are often reviled. Basically I added a lot of flavor to my campaign by the fairly limited inclusion of guns.

Liberty's Edge

Sebastian wrote:
Yay guns! I love guns and always incorporate them in my campaign settings. I blame spelljammer.

I knew I liked you for a rational reason.


Heathansson wrote:
Sebastian wrote:
Yay guns! I love guns and always incorporate them in my campaign settings. I blame spelljammer.
I knew I liked you for a rational reason.

Another vote for guns! Seriously, if you don't like them, don't use them. Sebastian, you use guns in spelljammer- was that in second ed or the Polyhedron Third Ed version?

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Heathansson wrote:
Sebastian wrote:
Yay guns! I love guns and always incorporate them in my campaign settings. I blame spelljammer.
I knew I liked you for a rational reason.

And here I thought it was because I was kind to man and beast alike.

Is that rational reason wrt guns or sj?

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Freehold DM wrote:


Another vote for guns! Seriously, if you don't like them, don't use them. Sebastian, you use guns in spelljammer- was that in second ed or the Polyhedron Third Ed version?

2e SJ incorporated guns into the core setting (to the extent a core setting can be said to exist in SJ). The Giff (aka, the goofy hippo men) were strongly associated with such weapons and even had a large ship that, like the starblazers yamato cannon, was built around a very large blunderbuss. I don't think the the 3e version in polyhedron mentioned guns specifically.

Of course this whole discussion brings up an excellent point: will we see spelljammer ships in Pathfinder? I don't want to hear any nonesense about them not being OGL, I just want a yes.


I dont think its any harder to add or remove guns from a setting if you want to, but thats just my opinion.

I'm in favour of gun rules for pathfinder (assuming we're talking renaissance style or earlier guns of course) I'd like to see a set of gun rules that are better than the optional rules in the DMG.
(Admittedly im biased as a mate of mine is tryin to create some more realistic firearms rules for a campaign setting he's buiding.)

Sovereign Court Contributor

F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
In fact, rules for guns are in the Dungeon Master’s Guide, and it’s probably a bad idea for us to come out the door with a cold hard ban on an element it the core books (lasers are another discussion).

All Right! Did everybody hear that? They are discussing putting lasers in Pathfinder! Awesome!

;-)

(No ones going to go and take me seriously, right?)


I'm loading my blunderbus now.

Scarab Sages

Rambling Scribe wrote:


All Right! Did everybody hear that? They are discussing putting lasers in Pathfinder! Awesome!

;-)

(No ones going to go and take me seriously, right?)

Finally! I can have sharks with frickin' lasers on their heads.


Sean Robson wrote:
We're likely talking about matchlock, or at best, flintlock weapons. Their damage is, I believe, 1d10, but the time to reload is prohibitive.

I always wonder about the damage they do... I always understood they were horribly inaccurate. I always figured the damage should be quite low but with a massive critical modifier (x6 or something).

Dark Archive

Pro-firearms vote here. I like to have elements of technology in my games.

My D&D games use medieval undertones, but they are not "medieval" per se. D&D follows its own logic and fantasy style (both of which Ptolus supports with perfection - firearms included).

Liberty's Edge

Sebastian wrote:
Heathansson wrote:
Sebastian wrote:
Yay guns! I love guns and always incorporate them in my campaign settings. I blame spelljammer.
I knew I liked you for a rational reason.

And here I thought it was because I was kind to man and beast alike.

Is that rational reason wrt guns or sj?

Guns!!!

But space ships are cool. Never did any sj, but it looks cool to me.

Liberty's Edge

Considering that firearms and flamethrowers were a product of the middle ages, I'm about sick of people saying that firearms have no place in D&D. If you don't like 'em, don't use 'em--but don't deny that they belong in a medieval setting.

Thank you for that. The baseline D&D world takes place in a setting roughly the same technologically as the Late Middle Ages/Early Renaissance. Heavy plate is just one of the "give aways" on that point. The other is the rapier. Guns saw regular use in warfare from the Hundred Years War on.

If anything though the setting is an idealized version of the medieval period. People live longer, healthier lives. Cities have extensive and effective sewer systems. With even a little bit of magic augmenting their lives people have more leisure time to simply think and develop. Class structure is looser and there is a general lack of gender prejudice. There seems to be no social restriction on what a person can choose as a career path. Good faiths almost always serve the people and Evil faiths seek to undermine them. The local clergy can perform miracles. The world is black and white.

At the same time defense is of the utmost concern. Hordes of deadly creatures lurk in the wilderness and the land is strewn with ruins filled with horrid beasts. It seems to me guns would be only one of a number of ways alchemists and craftsmen would devise to protect people.

When you examine the baseline D&D assumptions with a critical eye the setting is about as medieval as my local Medieval Faire. Its a good time but hardly accurate by any stretch of the imagination. It is inspired by a Middle Ages that never was. Thus is the way of fantasy. To make it fun requires a stretching of the limits and I think guns can be included in that expansion. We are talking about matchlock technology here, not Berettas and AK-47s.

I guess my question would be why do guns betray the medieval setting when extensive sewer systems in cities, clockwork creatures, loose social structures, advanced engineering and architectural achievements, etc do not?

But guns are not for everyone, I understand that. I implement them into every campaign unless I am 1) trying something different or 2) playing in Greyhawk where such items are not supposed to work. For the most part I assume an early to mid 16th century level of technology in my settings. I am happy that the Pathfinder stuff will keep them small and isolated so those that hate guns can remove them and those who like them can increase their prominance. I just don't think their presence ruins fantasy and they certainly don't take a setting out of the D&D Late Medieval roots.

I think the Pathfinder compromise is fantastic and I can't wait to see exactly what is done.

Dark Archive RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

I'm in favor of having guns be a part of the new setting. I mean really, with Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and Dragonlance, I have plenty of 'traditional' fantasy settings to choose from. I'd like to see something a little more 'Age of Reason' like 7th Sea. Swashbuckling and pistol duels in the street and all that. I think it'd be awesome, and a refreshing deviation from the norm.

After all, what is the point of making your own campaign setting when all you really do is take Greyhawk and move the geography around?


I'm all for adding having guns available. They shouldn't be too prevalent, but having them there gives me options. Also, don't make the rules too realistic or punitive, if firearms are an option it should be fun to use them. They don't need to be better than the longbow, but don't make a rifleman impossible to play either. I like fun and fantasy, not playing a historical simulation.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

I've only just skimmed this thread, so I might be repeating some info... but!

There are going to be guns in our world. Just as there are guns in Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms. BUT! Firearms are a relatively new player on the scene, and are still quite exotic as a result. There won't be any showing up in the first Adventure Path or in the first several GameMastery modules. In fact, I can probably guarentee that whenever guns show up (if they ever do) in an adventure we do, that the gun will be a fairly major plot point.

In any event... you can probably expect to see guns appear about as often as you saw them appear in Greyhawk back in the day... or in Dungeon over the last several years. As in very, VERY rarely. If ever.


I'm in the "if you don't like 'em, don't use 'em" camp myself. I may use them, depending if I feel that a particular NPC or city/area warrants it.


Orcs with chainguns riding wyverns....the ultimate equalizer. 'Puff the Magic Dragon' indeed!


Fatespinner wrote:

I'm in favor of having guns be a part of the new setting. I mean really, with Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and Dragonlance, I have plenty of 'traditional' fantasy settings to choose from. I'd like to see something a little more 'Age of Reason' like 7th Sea. Swashbuckling and pistol duels in the street and all that. I think it'd be awesome, and a refreshing deviation from the norm.

After all, what is the point of making your own campaign setting when all you really do is take Greyhawk and move the geography around?

And herein lies my objection. Yes firearms appeared in the Middle Ages. Now if there is an established baseline - "firearm technology won't surpass 13th century Earth" (as an example) then I'm good to go. However, what typically happens is one author/designer envisions medieval-level firearm tech while another enivisions Age-of-Sail and yet another envisions something else.

And as a counterpoint on the setting front, I have plenty of 'non-traditional' or 'quirky' settings to choose from. Well designed, internally consistent 'traditional' settings are a little harder to come by these days.

I would also point out that firearms are in the "Building a Different World" section of the DMG (Renaissance, Modern, and Futuristic). They're not in the PHB for a reason. I can respect Paizo's decision to include them, but they can have a very large impact on a campaign's setting and tone.

Finally, the 'moving Greyhawk geography' around is a straw-man argument. The Pathfinder reinterpretation of goblins is proof-positive that you can take something 'traditional' or 'common' and make something exceptional out of it.

Obviously, if I subscribed to Pathfinder with only the teaser info available thus far, I must have a pretty high level of confidence in Paizo's ability to put together an interesting world. That doesn't mean I can't put in my "No guns" vote alongside the 'Tie it in to Spelljammer' crowd or the 'Can we have half-drow/half-dragon/half-fiend psionic paragon' camp. ;)

BPorter


I approve of the pathfinder model for guns. Lord knows I probably won't ever include firearms in my campaign, but lord the one gun can make an interesting plot device.


James Jacobs wrote:

I've only just skimmed this thread, so I might be repeating some info... but!

There are going to be guns in our world. Just as there are guns in Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms. BUT! Firearms are a relatively new player on the scene, and are still quite exotic as a result. There won't be any showing up in the first Adventure Path or in the first several GameMastery modules. In fact, I can probably guarentee that whenever guns show up (if they ever do) in an adventure we do, that the gun will be a fairly major plot point.

In any event... you can probably expect to see guns appear about as often as you saw them appear in Greyhawk back in the day... or in Dungeon over the last several years. As in very, VERY rarely. If ever.

James, thanks to you and F. Wesley for the additional info and insight. While I can appreciate the desire (and business sense) of keeping the door open on as many adventure ideas and genres as possible I figured it couldn't hurt to ask for the removal of firearms from the setting. If handled in the fashion you guys have described, then it hopefully will be as easy to take out or ignore firearms if DMs so wish as others have suggested. (Contrary to past personal experience.)

I was also pleasantly surprised to see that perhaps my opinion wasn't the minority opinion I thought it was.

Thanks again,

BPorter


Can you imagine an invading hobgoblin army using a three rank gun line? What an opportunity for the players to be the heroes and save their home nation! Who says it has to be the good guys who develop the superior technology first?

Grand Lodge

NO Guns PLEASE!

There are 2 problems for a DM just killing them outright from his or her campaign.

First, the AP that does contain guns will have to focus on them the way an adventure would have to focus on a new monster or a campaign would have to focus on a new source of magic. That takes up a lot of space and will CERTAINLY make it hard for the DM to eliminate. When the Drow were introduced in the G series it would have been very difficult for DMs to change them to something else! (This also makes an issue or even a whole AP much less usable.)

Second, even if it is not officially considered "core" material for the campaign world, some players are going to see it in print and ask for its inclusion -- "After all," the old argument dregs on, "if we the players spend money on the products we should have the option to use the material." WotC put out supplement after supplement of crap that so many people bought -- the player buys Savage Species so he wants to use it; the player buys another book full of game-balance destroying feats and prestige classes so she wants to use it. Can the DM really say, "Sorry, you may have spent $100+ on books but I don't like them?!" It's very important for all of the players in the group to get the fun they're looking for; we compromise each time and it works out but the inclusion of guns will make it very difficult.

You at Paizo have done a remarkable -- nay, extraordinary job of listening to your customers. Please, PLEASE consider delegating guns to a sidebar or maybe one page article. If a contributor can include guns in an adventure he or she could, with appropriate artistic license, make it very difficult for DMs to exclude.

-W. E. Ray

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