The Wandering Smith |
Given that we now have two adventure paths every year. Is there any possibility of seeing a campaign in Pathfinder with the PC's being the bad guys/villains? An evil campaign in other words.
Although as interesting as it sounds for some, I don't think that it would be a good sell.
The other issue I see, deals with the natural conundrum of being "evil'; and that is, in order for your campaign to succeed long term, you need a necessary harmony of interest with you fellow adventurer without the struggle to supercede another for power.
Evil is innately discordant and long term success in a campaign will eventually collapse upon an independent struggle for power and wealth. In gaming layman terms...your campaign would not survive long with evil pc's if the players were to properly play their pc's to such an alignment.
This is why evil empires, dictators etc always fail in their ultimate quest, because it's all about the individual in spite of others and there are to many other's who share a common ground for the betterment of a whole to stand up against such a person.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
Given that we now have two adventure paths every year. Is there any possibility of seeing a campaign in Pathfinder with the PC's being the bad guys/villains? An evil campaign in other words.
There absolutely is. Not at first, but eventaully we'll be able to get more experemential with the Adventure Paths. That includes the possibility of an evil Adventure Path. It'd have to be handled delicately, and the fact that evil campaigns are less popular than psionics or epic levels means that there's not a lot of folks out there interested in them, but I certainly could see a path that can go both ways. We kind of did that with Savage Tide, actually...
Richard Pett Contributor |
M'naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaar!
Richard Pett Contributor |
Richard Pett Contributor |
Peruhain of Brithondy |
Selfish and self-absorbed antiheroes, yes. Look at all those great old Bogie and Brando movies as examples, plus lots of my favorite westerns. Heck, look at the three musketeers, with the scheming Athos and the mercenary D'Artagnan who is a king's man only when the king has money to pay him. There are great fantasy antecedents for this too--Conan, for starters, on down to Mat Cauthon in the Wheel of Time or Jaime Lannister in GRR Martin's Westeros. Antiheroes make interesting characters.
Pathological murderers, no. As PCs, I mean. They make great villains, I suppose, as long as they have a few other interesting traits to keep them from being your garden-variety mass-murderer. But if your object is just to slaughter people, take their gold, and ravish their women, with no thoughts for anything else, well, sounds kind of dull to me.
Atrocious |
Atrocious wrote:Given that we now have two adventure paths every year. Is there any possibility of seeing a campaign in Pathfinder with the PC's being the bad guys/villains? An evil campaign in other words.There absolutely is. Not at first, but eventaully we'll be able to get more experemential with the Adventure Paths. That includes the possibility of an evil Adventure Path. It'd have to be handled delicately, and the fact that evil campaigns are less popular than psionics or epic levels means that there's not a lot of folks out there interested in them, but I certainly could see a path that can go both ways. We kind of did that with Savage Tide, actually...
Glad to hear it! And I have to congratulate you on the Savage Tide, the campaign is very refreshing compared to the regular run-of-the-mill adventure paths like Age of Worms (although it too was excellent in its own way). Scuttlecove in particular really caught my eye with the Porphyry House Horror, and I was delighted to see it return in all its gory glory in the outstanding adventure "The Serpents of Scuttlecove". Great job on that one Mr. Pett! Great job on the backdrop too Mr. Jacobs, though Kedward Bone freaks me out every time...
firedancer |
Wohoo!
A Villains series is something I would really enjoy, and there is plenty of scope outside of being a nasty-evil, self centred individual.
Treasure seeking - removing idols from a foreign culture is inherently selfish and bordering on evil. You might have good reason, but the act of plundering is evil.
I suppose most players don't want to be bad guy, they play to be heroic.
Villains have a much greater scope for adventure; the BBEG always has mooks doing his dirty work, aiming towards some clearly defined goal. More defined than the general "stop the badguy" hook deployed in other adventures.
A Runelord needs awakening, and they're going to be really nice to the group that awakens them!
Overthrowing the current government, whilst not evil, would cast the players as villians (within areas the government control) and provide a more thought out game.
Neil Spicer Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut |
Not at first, but eventually we'll be able to get more experemential with the Adventure Paths. That includes the possibility of an evil Adventure Path. It'd have to be handled delicately, and the fact that evil campaigns are less popular than psionics or epic levels means that there's not a lot of folks out there interested in them, but I certainly could see a path that can go both ways. We kind of did that with Savage Tide, actually...
Maybe more within the Game Mastery line I could see an "evil" adventure or two...but an entire Adventure Path? Eh...not my cup of tea...
I wouldn't mind seeing you design an Adventure Path that made room for a moral dilemma by which the PCs could "turn to the dark side" somewhere along the course. But, in and of itself, I wouldn't favor an AP that started "evil" and continued throughout...
Just my two-cents,
--Neil
Richard Pett Contributor |
Scuttlecove in particular really caught my eye with the Porphyry House Horror, and I was delighted to see it return in all its gory glory in the outstanding adventure "The Serpents of Scuttlecove". Great job on that one Mr. Pett! Great job on the backdrop too Mr. Jacobs, though Kedward Bone freaks me out every time...
Cheers:) I couldn't go wrong with Scuttlecove being such a fantastically diabolical place though, I'm sure we'll find some other cites without redemption, starting with...
Whimsy Chris |
For some reason, villain campaigns have never really attracted me, as a DM or a player. It would have to be a -really- good campaign with a lot of roleplaying opportunities to peak my interest. The idea of evil people going around and looting and pillaging with a me-first attitude is unattractive, even a little boring. However, include lots of societies, alliances, politics, and social/roleplaying opportunities*, and I might be interested.
* Trying not to sound too Vampire here as I'm not that fond of that game either, but I'm not really doing a good job of it. My main point is I would not be interested in a campaign where the main objective is to go kill the paladin John Doe the Good.
Aureus |
An evil-campaign isn't a thing I would like to run, but some of my players would love it for sure! They thought long and hard when Rowyn Kellani offered them a partnership. But because for metagaming reasons they denied and attacked. They thought I will break down in tears if they chose the dark side. AHAHA those fools! I simply had to tell them that it REALY was an option! MUAHAHAHA!!!
King of the Jakers |
I am in the process of running an evil campaign and the players love to play it, it lets them vent alot of frustration, and I love to run it. I mean how often do you get to see the truley diabolical side of your players and how often do you as a dm get to acctually have your cuddley kodiak moments get squashed instead of doing the squashing. I for one am in definate favor of and evil campaign.
Stebehil |
It surely would be interesting to see how professional and semi-professional game designers and authors make such a story work.
I would not like to see PCs going on a bloody killing spree or something like that, but an evil, scheming party working for an overlord and trying to topple a government or something like that could make a nice story.
Anti-heroes: I think of Elric if I hear the term.
Stefan
psionichamster |
hmm....perhaps something along the lines of Shadowrun...
the PC's are not necessarily Villians, per se, but still wanted by the legitimate authorities (who are likely more villainous than any PC could be) for doing things that help themselves or their friends.
perhaps something along the lines of Perdido Street Station, where the characters need to go against criminals, cultists, and the (corrupt) government, and make some morally questionable choices to get the job done.
definitely would be interested in this kind of setup.
-the hamter
Richard Pett Contributor |
firedancer |
Villains could be selfish characters where the motivation is not necessarily driven by honour or fame but wealth and greed - I don't thnk an evil campaign (where there would likely be a lot of charcater conflict) would work so well as a distinctly neutral one.
I've always considered a self-serving, mercenary attitude to be evil, only remaining neutral through some level they won't go past, even for that amount of gold.
I have played several evil parties, almost all with huge success and more fun than good: these are proactively seeking goals, making plots and plans, whilst a large number of goodly adventures are reactionary.
As for an evil party infighting; its all down to cohesion and unity, and that's a factor we use during character creation.
Campaigns labeled as "Evil" have a lot of difficulty with preconceptions about evil, especially in a game where people sign on to play the hero. The evil PC need not be a compulsive killer, nor need the player go into uncomfortable detail about the pillaging. Quietly gathering material to blackmail a governor, bribing guards to turn a blind eye, breaking and entering, making an example of the resisting innkeeper, these are all tools of the villain.
Its also a matter of perspective. Both sides of every conflict view the other as the villain, the evil that strikes at them and must be stopped. Rome's conquests were evil acts, yet the Roman's believed they were bringing so much to the barbarian masses they saw it as good, as serving the gods.
Plus, a villians series doesn't have to be all that evil. The Pc's can willingly and knowingly hire on to research, locate and free Runelord Lust and reap loads of benefits without actually having to perform an act any more evil than lie about their motivations and kill a few guards and individuals trying to stop them.
Just my couple of coppers...
damnitall22 |
A straight up evil AP wouldn't be for me. However I and my players would love something that mixed it up and allowed the option of going to the bad side. In fact I generally throw in a few instances of temptation just to see what happens. Temptation to do the easy or most profitable thing is something everyone can relate to and so I offer it. I have also had to fulfill my end of the offer a few times. Every time it happens it makes a great campaign in all but the best one ever was where the party split over a decision. Admittedly it was hard for me to run with 2 groups but we met separately and the PC's both good and evil fed off of each other. They hatched their own plots against each other and many were the times that one groups earlier sabotage efforts paid off later and the other group knew for sure that it was the "traitors". It was probably the best campaign I have ever seen mush less ran simply because they created all the drama between themselves and I just ran them through it.
Fraust |
Why is it people seem to think "evil parties" automatically has to equate to "kill, rape, pillage, burn, and eat the babies" style roleplaying? Yes, an entire campaign based around walking into town and murdering the townsfolk, city guard, and anything else currently alive would be boring as heck, but so is walking into an orc warren and killing all the townsorcs, warriors, and whatever else...
I would say the War of the Spider Queen series did a pretty good job of showing an evil party that has party conflict, over all goals, personal goals, and everything else you would need to make an exceptionaly cool campaign. If printed right, and DMed right, I think this would be a great idea.
If this idea does get scrapped however, more side bars listing advice for moraly gray parties (like the ones in Savage Tides) would be greatly appriciated.