On rereading HTBM, I find the description of the portal/trap in the "shrine of duplicity" (room 7 in the shrine of Demogorgon) to be a bit confusing. Let me see if I understand how it's supposed to be done:
1. Light north candle, sit in southern throne, touch north mirror, party must fight bestial image of character who does this unless the character makes his will save or is warded by protection from evil/chaos.
2. Light south candle, sit in northern throne, touch south mirror with similar result as above.
3. Once the south mirror is touched, party has 10 minutes to use mirrors as portals to room 8.
4. If south candle is lit first, the procedure fails. If both candles are lit before any throne is sat upon, the candles explode and then self-extinguish, resetting the trap so that the entire procedure must be started over.
5. Sitting in the north throne after lighting the north candle has no effect but does not reset the trap, so that subsequently sitting in the south throne will advance the process. And likewise for the sitting in the south throne after lighting the south candle.
Sorry for the weird title--couldn't resist, since the write-up says the mirrors have to be "touched appropriately"
On rereading HTBM, I find the description of the portal/trap in the "shrine of duplicity" (room 7 in the shrine of Demogorgon) to be a bit confusing. Let me see if I understand how it's supposed to be done:
1. Light north candle, sit in southern throne, touch north mirror, party must fight bestial image of character who does this unless the character makes his will save or is warded by protection from evil/chaos.
2. Light south candle, sit in northern throne, touch south mirror with similar result as above.
3. Once the south mirror is touched, party has 10 minutes to use mirrors as portals to room 8.
4. If south candle is lit first, the procedure fails. If both candles are lit before any throne is sat upon, the candles explode and then self-extinguish, resetting the trap so that the entire procedure must be started over.
5. Sitting in the north throne after lighting the north candle has no effect but does not reset the trap, so that subsequently sitting in the south throne will advance the process. And likewise for the sitting in the south throne after lighting the south candle.
Sorry for the weird title--couldn't resist, since the write-up says the mirrors have to be "touched appropriately"
I just had to look because of the title...a little afraid at what I would read lol. But yeah I think that's how It works If I remember correctly?
DAve
4. If south candle is lit first, the procedure fails. If both candles are lit before any throne is sat upon, the candles explode and then self-extinguish, resetting the trap so that the entire procedure must be started over.
The order which is extremely important is candle, corresponding throne, then mirror. Repeat for opposite set.
If the north candle is lit first, the order is:
north candle, south throne, north mirror, south candle, north throne, south mirror.
If the south candle is lit first, the order is:
south candle, north throne, south mirror, north candle, south throne, north mirror.
Whether the north or south candle is lit first does not matter, so long as the appropriate order of events is followed.
Otherwise, you are correct.
I find it easier (and your players may as well) if you have the north mirror facing southeast and the south mirror facing northeast, such that you should see the reflection from the appropriate throne. Though I have not run the adventure yet, I plan on making sure a divination spell is available - otherwise this trap could become very frustrating. The planned divination result is as follows:
Light the candle, sit on the throne, look at your primal past
Light the candle, sit on the throne, see yourself aghast
Touch the darkness, standing tall, movement very fast
An exit remains forevermore, but an entrance will not last
yeah, there being little to no hints at all as for the function of this "portal" (and the PCs likely not even being aware thatther _are_ further ooms beyond has struck me as a rather "stupid" part of that adventure, sorry to say.
Basically it becomes a "one fight/wrong attempt" setpiece. not really funny.
Thanks for the divination rhyme--that's really good. I love doing those things.
As for not knowing there's more dungeon, well, there are ample clues that the bar-lgura took Urol through here. Not to mention the traces of evil and chaos pointing to the dungeon's entrance. And if they're really stumped, let them do a knowledge arcana check to realize that mirrors are often enchanted to serve as portals. And detect magic reveals that the mirrors, candles, and thrones are all magical. They'll know something's up, and they'll just have to solve the Gygaxian puzzle. Gygaxian puzzles are fun as long as the DM is willing to drop a few hints in response to knowledge checks and divination spells so that the solving part doesn't waste too much time. And as long as they don't occur too frequently--once or twice per adventure. This adventure (at three) pushes the envelope a bit, but when averaged out over the entire AP, it works out OK.
Have players actually solved this puzzle?
Seriously, this module is going to get a total puzzle revamp before it hits my table, mostly just because I don't care for puzzles for puzzles' sake.
Fer instance, to get out of the first tunnel under the mountain, the PCs need to find two keys, one of which is entombed in a casket in a secret room.
Not only does the failure to find the secret door mean the end of the adventure, but it just doesn't make sense. Did the original users of this tunnel routinely exhume their dead chiefs in order to open the door?
The two monkey-hand keys from the temple are another example. At the point where you're hiding keys in cages filled with rabid monkeys, I have to ask why have a key? Who is supposed to use it?
As for the mirror puzzle, I love my players but if any of them solved this I would have to assume they read the magazine at the book store.
My players detonated the candles about eight times. Brute force (and a bunch of cure spells) can work this one out. Especially since there are clues for the sequence (when you light the candle on the left, the right chair pools with blood. When you sit in the blood, something shimmers in the left mirror.)
I did have to make some rules on the fly for when the candles detonate, since my players kept trying odd combinations.
Creative Director
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Like all puzzles in pre-published adventures, it's best to be flexible and dynamic when presenting this encounter. If the players are getting frustrated, it's okay to have their latest attempt to solve the puzzle be the correct "solution" as long as it makes sense. Alternately, if they're frustrated, you should have them make some skill checks (perhaps Search or Spellcraft or Knowledge [arcana]) and no matter what they roll, give whoever rolls the highest some clues on what to do. And in the end, if you think that the puzzle's too difficult or nonsensical for your group and its inclusion will only cause problems... by all means simplify it.
And in the end, if you think that the puzzle's too difficult or nonsensical for your group and its inclusion will only cause problems... by all means simplify it.
Your reasonable and informed responses aren't welcome around here. I called out one of your top writers* and demand a more defensive reply.
* I don't have it in front of me. This is the same guy what did Mad God's Key, right?
And in the end, if you think that the puzzle's too difficult or nonsensical for your group and its inclusion will only cause problems... by all means simplify it.Your reasonable and informed responses aren't welcome around here. I called out one of your top writers* and demand a more defensive reply.
* I don't have it in front of me. This is the same guy what did Mad God's Key, right?
ROFL!
Okay, let me see if I can provide a suitably defensive reply on behalf of the writer and the magazine:
"No, you can't omit the puzzle or change it! It's an integral part of the adventure at that stage. You will force your players to sweat blood trying to solve it, and you'll like it!"
How's that? :)
As a player I do like puzzles. The one we faced in the Vanderboren vault, though somewhat difficult with the red herrings, was a welcome addition.
Let me tap your play experience on this one, then. Were you at all thrown by the inclusion of a medusa in the riddle and how that might throw off the eye-count if you realized she had a bunch of eyes writhing around her head on the ends of her snakes?
I don't think it'll take too long for the party to go "cyclops: 1 eye, aboleth: 3 eyes..." and so on until they get to the medusa and go "medusa: 44 eyes".
How'd this run for you?
I'm more than happy to hand-wave these sorts of encounters if there's no players who enjoy them in any given group. Some groups love this kind of stuff, others don't.
In this case, I let the party's tracker determine the order in which the demons had approached the objects, and then they replicated it and *poof* it just worked. Like magic.
In this case, I let the party's tracker determine the order in which the demons had approached the objects, and then they replicated it and *poof* it just worked. Like magic.
I like this approach. It lets the player think that his character was critical to the success of the mission. It doesn't allow much room for planning ahead, though, and my control freak nature doesn't allow for not planning eight dungeons ahead.
I like this approach. It lets the player think that his character was critical to the success of the mission. It doesn't allow much room for planning ahead, though, and my control freak nature doesn't allow for not planning eight dungeons ahead.
Why wouldn't that allow room for planning ahead? The way the module's written, they have to get past the puzzle room in order to complete the story. The specifics of how they get past it shouldn't affect your planning.
Just assume, "they're going to solve it," and let whatever approach they try bear fruit.
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The planned divination result is as follows:
Light the candle, sit on the throne, look at your primal past
Light the candle, sit on the throne, see yourself aghast
Touch the darkness, standing tall, movement very fast
An exit remains forevermore, but an entrance will not last
That's pretty cool.
I am thinking that I will have "Mr. Zombie On A Stick" give some directions, which I have written in inspiration to your divination quoted above:
Through dreaded maws and sacrificial opening to flame and reflection;
By burning cardinal point and bloody respite and touching bestial malediction;
With opposing flame and faux relief and taping living contradiction;
Will lastly, in falling darkness, find the means to death and disentigration.
Obviously mine goes into the caves and the fact that someone has to sacrifice to get past the doors. Also, I am having the second image / monster be a undead version of the PC instead of two beastial ones.
EDIT: I have decided it is going to be carved on the zombie's chest.
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The thing with puzzles is that you may need to come back to them after a break. I timed it so that after 45 minutes we had a bathroom/food break, and within 10 minutes from coming back they had solved it (and that was after I added 2 more chairs/candles just to be evil [in a 8 person party they could afford it}
I had my players make intelligence checks when they started repeating the same process again. It took them a little while but the gnome getting hurt made it a worthwhile puzzle for them (the gnome was the volunteer to sit in the throne).
2) It punishes you for success. Specifically, you have touch a mirror, but it forces a Will save, which some people see as a failure, ie. if I have to make a Will save, I must have done something wrong.
When my players have to make a will save and they don't know that something could be wrong, I make the save for them. In the mirror puzzle above, they all succeeded to the save so they even didn't know that a save was needed.
Light the candle, sit on the throne, look at your primal past
Light the candle, sit on the throne, see yourself aghast
Touch the darkness, standing tall, movement very fast
An exit remains forevermore, but an entrance will not last
That's incredible; well done. Someone should etch it "on" the mirror.
Were you at all thrown by the inclusion of a medusa in the riddle and how that might throw off the eye-count if you realized she had a bunch of eyes writhing around her head on the ends of her snakes? How'd this run for you?
I replaced this particular puzzle. I thought it was too darn confusing, although some people are just naturally better puzzle solvers and live for that sort of thing. If you want to see the replacement, it is at the bottom of the thread here: Clickie.
Put me in the "this thing is too confusing" camp. I'm simplifying as follows:
The candles are on a sconce next to the mirror. If the candle is not lit, then the mirror's surface is very dark. When lit, the mirror then reflects normally. If you sit in the opposite throne and the candle is lit, you see yourself in the mirror but with red eyes and crazied hair (a hint at the domination). Behind your image in the mirror, the throne-sitter can vaguely make out the chamber the mirror transfer you too. If the throne sitter gets up and touches the mirror, the domination trap is activated but the mirror also changes to an actual portal. Rather than a vague image of the room beyond, you can see the room beyond clearly. Anyone can move through the mirror at that point for 10 rounds.
The south throne/north mirror transfers the toucher to the mirror at area 8. The north throne/south mirror transfers PCs to the pit of area 11. This keeps with the one good/one bad setup the lair has.
And since my players love detect magic:
Candle: Faint Divination (clairvoyance)
Throne: Faint Divination (clairvoyance)
Mirror: Moderate Transmutation (teleport), Strong Enchantment (Dominate Monster)
---------------
Lastly, to keep up the "rescue" feeling of the adventure, the hostage's whimpering voice can be heard in this room. A Listen DC20 will reveal that it's the altar at the West side of the room is the source of the sound. This altar is also very hot to the touch. Anyone willing to keep their hand on the surface for more than 1 round receives a vision of area 16:
1 Round: See flames, take 1d6 fire damage
2 Rounds: See hostage hanging above the flames, take 2d6 fire damage
3 Rounds: See the whole room with O lounging on the dias. Take 3d6 fire damage.
Altar: Faint Divination (clairvoyance)
Put me in the "this thing is too confusing" camp. I'm simplifying as follows:
The candles are on a sconce next to the mirror. If the candle is not lit, then the mirror's surface is very dark. When lit, the mirror then reflects normally. If you sit in the opposite throne and the candle is lit, you see yourself in the mirror but with red eyes and crazied hair (a hint at the domination). Behind your image in the mirror, the throne-sitter can vaguely make out the chamber the mirror transfer you too. If the throne sitter gets up and touches the mirror, the domination trap is activated but the mirror also changes to an actual portal. Rather than a vague image of the room beyond, you can see the room beyond clearly. Anyone can move through the mirror at that point for 10 rounds.The south throne/north mirror transfers the toucher to the mirror at area 8. The north throne/south mirror transfers PCs to the pit of area 11. This keeps with the one good/one bad setup the lair has.
And since my players love detect magic:
Candle: Faint Divination (clairvoyance)
Throne: Faint Divination (clairvoyance)
Mirror: Moderate Transmutation (teleport), Strong Enchantment (Dominate Monster)---------------
Lastly, to keep up the "rescue" feeling of the adventure, the hostage's whimpering voice can be heard in this room. A Listen DC20 will reveal that it's the altar at the West side of the room is the source of the sound. This altar is also very hot to the touch. Anyone willing to keep their hand on the surface for more than 1 round receives a vision of area 16:
1 Round: See flames, take 1d6 fire damage
2 Rounds: See hostage hanging above the flames, take 2d6 fire damage
3 Rounds: See the whole room with O lounging on the dias. Take 3d6 fire damage.Altar: Faint Divination (clairvoyance)
Thanks for this great info, I find it confusing too so I may borrow some of this and tweak it. My guys aren't there yet but they are an Information is Power type of group, so the detect magic notes will be of great use.
Cheers!
My players had no problems whatsoever with these puzzles. They also found it cathartic to slay their fellow PCs. Room was enjoyed by all.
Awesome! And I've heard it say that PK'ing each other can't be done without bad blood ... ^_*
After blowing themselves up a few times, they figured it out, but because of the failed Will save on the second activation (by the cleric!) they were left thinking it had failed while they fought the cleric.
And the party were left to fight a crazed cleric, of course all the great spells for dealing with characters non-violently are cleric spells, the warmage couldn't provide anything to help so the fighter tried grappling him. At which point the Cleric reminded them that he had the travel domain and hence Freedom of Movement power to escape the grapple, and so I had him do Blade of Blood and slash the fighter. In the end the cleric feel to subdual damage, but it was one of the harder fights they have had.
I have a player who says that the Travel Domain makes him immune to grappling, but it doesn't read like that to me. I think it's saying if a magical effect hinders his movement then his power activates as if he had the Freedom of Movement spell in effect.
Does anyone know where to find clarification on that?
My PCs got their hands on 2 small silver pyramids (one of which is the one from Tamoachan), of which they think they are keys.
I am now thinking af adapting the shrine of duplicity, on the basis of these 2 keys. How could they fit into the picture? And especially, how could the riddle be made a little easier to solve with 2 silver pyramid keys?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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You could just require 2 characters to sit in two thrones and insert the keys simultaneously.
At that point it might be amusing for blood to flow over the seats and into the middle of the room. Giggle when they think they're bleeding from their bottoms. And have the blood form into doubles of the two characters à la Mirror of Opposition.
(Copies of everyone's character sheets very useful at this point.)
I like this idea!
I am definitely going to use it.
Perhaps it was once an Olman temple safeguarding some sacred relic. When the Olman culture fell, the demons took over this temple and made it in a Demogorgon temple.
The bar-lgura kan use their kidnap ability for that, surely?
If you alter things so that silver pyramids are needed to activate the mirrors, please remember that the temple occupants will need a set of their own for those servants of Demogorgon who come visiting but are not able to teleport or dimension door.
Actually, it makes sense that Olangu and his mates wouldn't want anyone being able to get through this puzzel without them as escports. It's a built in security feature. However, yes, back in the day, the cult of Demogorgon created this as a ritual symbolizing the twin aspects of The Prince of Demons.
Now I kind of wish I'd thought of that before I had them lighting candles and touching mirrors.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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And since the people entering were evil, the doubles created were good and therefore sappy and ripe for the slaughter :-)
Kind of suits the big D that you murder any last buried vestiges of decency within you by summoning a copy of yourself and offering it to him. Or chopping it into corned beef.
[only half serious] So if a party of skinwalkers from the City of Broken Idols are supposed to be carrying out a surprise inspection on behalf of Khala, they're supposed to wait whilst the bar-lgura hide the naughty celestials playing cards, wipe the 'Demogorgon sucks' graffiti off the Lemorian Golem, and retrieve the tribute that they had been salting away elsewhere, so that they can be teleported into the complex?
:D [/only half serious]
lol!
But really, chaotics having surprise inspections? That sounds like they have some kind of hierarchy or structure. Actually I do not think the bar-lguras want Khala's minions snooping around at all.
But seriously, the idea needs some fleshing out of course. But I like the basic idea with the two pyramids inserted at the same time. Especially because my PCs really think the pyramids are important.
Perhaps the bar-lguras have their own pyramids. Or they have a password for bypassing the security system and do not need to bother with it.
I’m forgetting the stated origin for the temple, but Olangru didn’t create it, right? He kind of just moved in and set up housekeeping. If that’s the case, there’s no reason to believe he ever had “the keys,” and with his teleportation ability, he never needed them. The original residents would have had keys, and who’s to say that those aren’t the ones the PCs found?
I’m forgetting the stated origin for the temple, but Olangru didn’t create it, right? He kind of just moved in and set up housekeeping. If that’s the case, there’s no reason to believe he ever had “the keys,” and with his teleportation ability, he never needed them. The original residents would have had keys, and who’s to say that those aren’t the ones the PCs found?Except Olangru possesses no divination abilities. How did he gain access to the inner parts in the first place if he didn't have 'keys', nor the means to scry for the inner chambers so that he knew where to teleport to?
It is possible, I suppose, that Olangru could have originally had both the silver pyramids which the PCs now possess, but somewhere along the way he 'lost' them. ('Lost' as in agents of Malcanthet stole them out from under his nose and planted them for the PCs to find, although I do not know if that would feel too railroady, or if Malcanthet could be certain that early on that the PCs might visit this shrine - although for a chaotic, even the chance that the PCs might could be good enough, and especially if it messed with Olangru, when he tried to find the 'keys'.)
That makes perfect sense. That's exactly in line with what Malcanthet would do (there's precedent with the bat idol). Olangru had the keys, but they were stolen by a servant of Malcanthet. Olangru was upset at first, especially with not knowing how he’d lost the keys, but by that time he already knew the layout and was able to teleport on his own. Eventually, he’d come to appreciate that he and his mates had exclusive access to the inner sanctum.
I was thinking of making the silver pyramids a regularly used way of locking doors in Olman ruins. Perhaps the Olman developed some kind of system based on the pyramids in the heyday of their culture. That way someone with knowledge history could figure out what the pyramids are for.
The only thing I have to do to make this convincing is adding silver pyramids here and there :-)
I was thinking of making the silver pyramids a regularly used way of locking doors in Olman ruins. Perhaps the Olman developed some kind of system based on the pyramids in the heyday of their culture. That way someone with knowledge history could figure out what the pyramids are for.
The only thing I have to do to make this convincing is adding silver pyramids here and there :-)
I'm pretty sure the temple is NOT Olman, though. I'm pretty sure the description made a point to say the style was different.
Hey - you're right Troy. I'd kind of assumed that everything on the island was Az/Mix/Toltec, I mean Olman. :)
I've put a lot of thought into this Olman stuff. I even found some sites on line for Aztec and Mayan languages, just to inject some flavor into writings and such. You’ll see it come up in the blog later on when Viselys starts having some Olman inspired dreams.
Anyway, I made an important point of it using Urol to note that these ruins were not in the same style as the Olams’ they had previously seen. In fact, this was in response to one of the player’s actually asking, “More Olman ruins?” to which Urol, said, “Actually, no...” and then going on to explain the differences in detail like the nerd that he is. Therefore, when they found the shrine, the same player immediately asked, “Is this Olman, or like those ruins we just saw?”
It kind of helps with the whole other-worldly, foreign element of Demogorgon’s influence – very Lovecraftian.
I'm pretty sure the temple is NOT Olman, though. I'm pretty sure the description made a point to say the style was different.I was thinking of making the silver pyramids a regularly used way of locking doors in Olman ruins. Perhaps the Olman developed some kind of system based on the pyramids in the heyday of their culture. That way someone with knowledge history could figure out what the pyramids are for.
The only thing I have to do to make this convincing is adding silver pyramids here and there :-)
Actually, two things should already be fairly clear by the time the party gets to Olangru's pad - and moreso when they get ready to tango with Khala.
- The Olman Empire did indeed use pyramids - including as a focal point for both arcane and divine rituals - at the height of their civilization. They are distinctive enough from each other as well to aid in teleportation effects and spells.
- A small silver pyramid is recoverable at the ruins of Tamoachan. It would be a minor task to assign a quasit or succubus from Malcanthet's vast retinue to acquire and plant a pair of them in the character's path or even directly into their inventory, although it would be even better if they uncovered them en route to Olangru's palatial abode. If they do not mysteriously show up, but are uncovered during their adventures, so much the better.
Actually, two things should already be fairly clear by the time the party gets to Olangru's pad -
Now I'm picturing this big ape with a wide-lapelled shirt open to the waist and big dark glasses reclining on a bed covered in throw-pillows surrounded by three female apes wearing platform shoes and hip-hugging bell-bottoms – one of them probably has a huge afro and another has long strait-hair with a center part. Lava lamp. Disco light.
Ew, and I thought we had explored every level of Olangru creepiness! "Olangru's pad" indeed!