Diagram of The Wreck


Savage Tide Adventure Path

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I've been staring at I-2's and G-1's for maybe half an hour. Certainly, I can't see any way of properly playing out the attack on the Crimson Fleet in "Serpents of Scuttlecove" without at least some sort of workable diagram showing the layout of the various component ships (not just the unconnected jumble of individual mini-maps). Can anyone help?


The maps really aren't comprehensible without reference to the text, and even then, you've got to read it carefully. Someone really needs to do a side-view from at least two different angles to help folks visualize this, and then post it to photobucket or someplace and link here. It is actually a wicked-cool setup, but I'm afraid at that level it will be nerfed by flying PCs. It would be a great site for about 6th level when a party is only likely to be able to get one person airborne.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Flying PCs will certainly wreak havoc... but then again, many of the bad guys that live there can fly, or can cast dispel magic, or have pretty strong ranged attacks... or can just run inside the wreck. It's certainly supposed to be a 3D battle, though, and I really wish we'd been able to afford a side-view of the map, but we had neither the time or the money to do so, alas. This would have been a great map to do an isometric 3D view like we did with the citadel in "Kings of the Rift," but then again whenever we do maps like that we get a fair amount of angry mail back from people who complain that the maps aren't clear or can't be used as battlemats. I certainly understand those complaints, which is why we generally avoid that style of map.

So yeah, for now it's just read the text carefully and pay attention to the side views. If someone out there does an accurate and usable diagram of the elevations, or does a neat 3d-view... I'd LOVE LOVE LOVE to see it! I'd do one myself, but I'm morbidly busy these days...


Yeah, I'm not that fond of the 3-D maps myself. The one from KoTR had some problems with it. I'd love to do a side-view diagram, and may try to, but I don't have access to a scanner, and if I do one it will be hand drawn. If I do one, I'll photocopy it and send one to you, James.


Any image of the wreck would be most appretiated! Thanks to anyone who does a little image!


I am considering it, although I am currently working 70+ hours a week and trying on the side to see my lovely daughter and wife and run my AoW campaign. Consider it in my thoughts and possible plans however.

Liberty's Edge

I saw someone (maybe Nic Logue?) mention on another thread that they were hoping to draw up a side view of the Wreck ahead of playing through it...

Silver Crusade

if someone could make something similar to the Ravenloft 2e maps for this encounter that would be great.

I wonder if that Google Sketchup program would work for something like this??

RM

Sovereign Court

Call me crazy, but in preparation for when my party reaches this point (it's a looooong way off - they're still on There is No Honor), and because I enjoy this stuff...

I've started trying to model this up with syrafoam, cardboard, paint and other modelling tools. If I ever finish it, I'll post photos that people can see. And yes, I'm doing this to scale. I said I was nuts.

Contributor

Sean Achterman wrote:

Call me crazy, but in preparation for when my party reaches this point (it's a looooong way off - they're still on There is No Honor), and because I enjoy this stuff...

I've started trying to model this up with syrafoam, cardboard, paint and other modelling tools. If I ever finish it, I'll post photos that people can see. And yes, I'm doing this to scale. I said I was nuts.

awesome stuff:)

Sovereign Court

Richard Pett wrote:


awesome stuff:)

I fully expect this project to take a couple of months and require at least four sanity checks, but hey - It'll be worth it just to see my player's faces.

The ships... are going to be hard.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Haldir wrote:
I wonder if that Google Sketchup program would work for something like this??

I was thinking about Sketchup too.

Luckily I'm still busy with the first chapter, and building the Maiden of the High Seas, and drawing out Parrot Island and the Lotus Dragons hideout and colouring them all in but still... I can't keep my mind off this one since it's just BEGGING for more views :)

Still, it's number 8 on the list, so if someone else does it first, I'll be over the moon!

Silver Crusade

yah my players are way off from that part as well, so I have tons of time to prepare for it, need to download that Sketchup program tomorrow & fiddle with it. I'm just wondering if it'll work with oddball items & such (all I see in examples are normal buildings, thou the Eiffel tower is in there, so who knows)

RM


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

This is tempting. Maybe I'll take a crack at it.


Oooh! Ashenvale I saw some earlier map-work of yours and it was awesome. If you did this we'd all be wery wery grateful.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Wow! Thanks! Now I'm inspired!

(Shameless plug: check out my website's updated cartography here. In the first two new maps, you can zoom in on any room by clicking on it on the map's main image.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ashenvale, the maps are all fantastic! It'd be great if you could get your Ashenvale Catheral adventure published someday.


I really hope somebody will do one. I barely understand it reading it. I certainly can't explain it to my players well enough to comprehend it.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens Subscriber

I needed some time to understand it, as well - perhaps quarter of an hour.
But then, I had an easier time of it because I´m an architect and used to reading building maps. Without that background, I can easily see how somebody would have major troubles understanding it.
Look for the level markers, for the posts, masts and ladders connecting them and try to figure out which "sub-level" (lower deck etc.) goes with which main level. Try to piece it together like a 3d puzzle.

Stefan


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Hey nautical-historical buffs, how deep should the draft be on these ships? How high should the ceilings be for interior ("below-decks")levels, and how much draft is left below the floor of the lowest interior "habitable" levels shown on the map?

I sketched out the layout and understand the ship's placement and connections. It works, but it's not simple to see. (IMO, another diagram should have been included with the maps. It's a lot of work for a DM to prepare this set of encounters given the confusion the maps create.)

To pull it all together, I need to estimate the horizontal dimensions of each ship. Should I assume 20 feet from main deck to keel, with 10 feet of height (floor to ceiling) for interior levels, leaving 10 feet of bilge or balast space below the interior levels? Thoughts?


Yep, got a brace of free time, gonna try to physically do up the Wreck. To D&D scale it will be approximately 5 by 8.5 feet, and aabout 3 feet tall, maybe more (trees are hard to estimate).

I'm going to do it in mostly carboard, have some old poster tubes for trees. Nothing fancy, but I will make sure to draw a grid on all the main surfaces. The ships will be interesting, I have a large character in my group, so I may make the ships have "ribs" holding the upper and lower decks, but leave the actual walls out. Maybe deliniate interior walls with heavy black lines.

NOTE: I'm going to try and make it modular enough to be broken down, packable, and shipable. If anyone out there decides they'd like it, I'll see about sending it to them, a la the Dragotha Project.

I'll keep you posted! Results one way or another will be fast, because my PCs will likely hit the Wreck in 2-3 weeks! Lets see if I can get it done in time!

Contributor

The Black Bard wrote:

Yep, got a brace of free time, gonna try to physically do up the Wreck. To D&D scale it will be approximately 5 by 8.5 feet, and aabout 3 feet tall, maybe more (trees are hard to estimate).

I'm going to do it in mostly carboard, have some old poster tubes for trees. Nothing fancy, but I will make sure to draw a grid on all the main surfaces. The ships will be interesting, I have a large character in my group, so I may make the ships have "ribs" holding the upper and lower decks, but leave the actual walls out. Maybe deliniate interior walls with heavy black lines.

NOTE: I'm going to try and make it modular enough to be broken down, packable, and shipable. If anyone out there decides they'd like it, I'll see about sending it to them, a la the Dragotha Project.

I'll keep you posted! Results one way or another will be fast, because my PCs will likely hit the Wreck in 2-3 weeks! Lets see if I can get it done in time!

Awesome:)


Ashenvale wrote:

Hey nautical-historical buffs, how deep should the draft be on these ships? How high should the ceilings be for interior ("below-decks")levels, and how much draft is left below the floor of the lowest interior "habitable" levels shown on the map?

I sketched out the layout and understand the ship's placement and connections. It works, but it's not simple to see. (IMO, another diagram should have been included with the maps. It's a lot of work for a DM to prepare this set of encounters given the confusion the maps create.)

To pull it all together, I need to estimate the horizontal dimensions of each ship. Should I assume 20 feet from main deck to keel, with 10 feet of height (floor to ceiling) for interior levels, leaving 10 feet of bilge or balast space below the interior levels? Thoughts?

They should all be caravels, so keel to main-deck height is about 20 feet. IRL, you'd probably have 2 decks plus 3-5 feet of bilge space above the keel on such a vessel, but I think the maps only show one level below main deck on most. I'd have the lower holds be accessible only by hatchway and be empty except for empty barrels and miscellaneous dunnage. It's lightless and fresh-airless down there, so people normally wouldn't live in these spaces. Or, make the lower level about 12 feet high (room for lots of cargo) with 8 feet of bilge.


Doing a test run of my construction methods and style using the Red Foam Whaling area. So far, so good. Biggest slow down will be putting grid on. Note to self, do full grid first, before actually measuring individual peices. Full grid makes measuring much easier.

FOR THOSE OF A SIMILAR CREATIVE BENT
Fabric and sewing stores often carry cardboard measuring sheets. These are beautiful for D&D terrain projects because A: they are usually 3' x 6' and B: they are done in a 1" grid. They cost about $10, and I feel are well worth the money to any custom terrain builder who feels 10 dollars is a fair trade for 18 square feet of pre-gridded surface.

Sovereign Court

The Black Bard wrote:

Doing a test run of my construction methods and style using the Red Foam Whaling area. So far, so good. Biggest slow down will be putting grid on. Note to self, do full grid first, before actually measuring individual peices. Full grid makes measuring much easier.

FOR THOSE OF A SIMILAR CREATIVE BENT
Fabric and sewing stores often carry cardboard measuring sheets. These are beautiful for D&D terrain projects because A: they are usually 3' x 6' and B: they are done in a 1" grid. They cost about $10, and I feel are well worth the money to any custom terrain builder who feels 10 dollars is a fair trade for 18 square feet of pre-gridded surface.

...Thank you so very much for pointing this out. I'm suprised I didn't think of it myself.

I admit, I suspect I'm being overly ambitious in my attempt to do this, but I've already got wooden dowels for the core of the tree, as well as a variety of molding and modelling foam. And wire for chains. Twine for ropes.

...Good thing I've got about 6 months before it's done. Sadly, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to make it portable... maybe if I make the ships detachable?

(FYI: Model Train Supply places are -very- helpful and knowledgable. And not too likely to give you funny looks if you explain what you're doing. These guys have some crazy terrain modelling methods.)


They should all be caravels, so keel to main-deck height is about 20 feet. IRL, you'd probably have 2 decks plus 3-5 feet of bilge space above the keel on such a vessel, but I think the maps only show one level below main deck on most. I'd have the lower holds be accessible only by hatchway and be empty except for empty barrels and miscellaneous dunnage. It's lightless and fresh-airless down there, so people normally wouldn't live in these spaces. Or, make the lower level about 12 feet high (room for lots of cargo) with 8 feet of bilge.

The 2 decks you refer to are below the main deck? So you'd have the main deck, then a lower deck for living areas, common area, and kitchen perhaps, and then a cargo hold below the lower deck, and then a bilge area below that? So maybe the lower deck and cargo hold have 8-9 foot ceilings and the bilge is a 3-5 foot space that runs the length of the ship?

I am using the Maiden of the High Seas (since I built it!) instead of the Sea Wyvern. This ship is about the size of the Blue Nixie which only has a lower deck. I am assuming the bottom of the boat does sit well below the waterline which would leave room for a cargo hold. I just wouldn't have a map of this area since it contains only cargo (and a certain stowaway!). I just want to be sure before I inform the PCs of the ships area and such. They will set sail during the next session and want to prepare the ship for the journey.

Thanks in advance for the help!


PROGRESS REPORT!

I divided the map of the Crimson Fleet base into 9 equally sized sections, 20 inches by 30 inches. This helps with transport, storage, and hopefully mailing.

Currently, in the order of:
[1][2][3]
[4][5][6]
[7][8][9]

Parts 1 and 2 are complete, and awaiting "gridding". Parts 4 and 5 are currently in construction, pending me accquiring more cardboard tomorrow. As for the "Wreck" itself, I have the carboard cores from industrial paper rolls, and a smaller poster tube. I plan on making the "trees" detachable from their respective bases.

Progress: approximately 20%.
Speed: Increasing.
Time Remaining Until Players Get There: 11 days.
Prognosis: Good, but it will be close.


Yes, Ronin--the lowest deck should be a cargo hold. Generally, you have some water sloshing around in the bottom, and you don't want your cargo immersed in it, so you build a deck a couple of feet above the keel to serve as the lower deck of your cargo hold. Normally, for a working ship, that space is filled with barrels and crates and dunnage to hold them in place. It's hard to get in and out--so you'd only go down there if you needed to break out some cargo. For these ships, though, the lower hold could be empty, or it could be used for some kind of storage. The ship floorplans aren't very realistic for working ships anyway, so I suppose we'd have to say that after using magic to perch the hulls on huge tree trunks, they had a bunch of carpenters remodel the interiors to serve as living quarters and such.


The Black Bard wrote:

PROGRESS REPORT!

I divided the map of the Crimson Fleet base into 9 equally sized sections, 20 inches by 30 inches. This helps with transport, storage, and hopefully mailing.

Currently, in the order of:
[1][2][3]
[4][5][6]
[7][8][9]

Parts 1 and 2 are complete, and awaiting "gridding". Parts 4 and 5 are currently in construction, pending me accquiring more cardboard tomorrow. As for the "Wreck" itself, I have the carboard cores from industrial paper rolls, and a smaller poster tube. I plan on making the "trees" detachable from their respective bases.

Progress: approximately 20%.
Speed: Increasing.
Time Remaining Until Players Get There: 11 days.
Prognosis: Good, but it will be close.

You. Must. Post. Photos.


Sben wrote:
The Black Bard wrote:

PROGRESS REPORT!

I divided the map of the Crimson Fleet base into 9 equally sized sections, 20 inches by 30 inches. This helps with transport, storage, and hopefully mailing.

Currently, in the order of:
[1][2][3]
[4][5][6]
[7][8][9]

Parts 1 and 2 are complete, and awaiting "gridding". Parts 4 and 5 are currently in construction, pending me accquiring more cardboard tomorrow. As for the "Wreck" itself, I have the carboard cores from industrial paper rolls, and a smaller poster tube. I plan on making the "trees" detachable from their respective bases.

Progress: approximately 20%.
Speed: Increasing.
Time Remaining Until Players Get There: 11 days.
Prognosis: Good, but it will be close.

You. Must. Post. Photos.

Cant wait to see it being done!!! Thanks for the commitment!


Peruhain of Brithondy wrote:
Yes, Ronin--the lowest deck should be a cargo hold. Generally, you have some water sloshing around in the bottom, and you don't want your cargo immersed in it, so you build a deck a couple of feet above the keel to serve as the lower deck of your cargo hold. Normally, for a working ship, that space is filled with barrels and crates and dunnage to hold them in place. It's hard to get in and out--so you'd only go down there if you needed to break out some cargo. For these ships, though, the lower hold could be empty, or it could be used for some kind of storage. The ship floorplans aren't very realistic for working ships anyway, so I suppose we'd have to say that after using magic to perch the hulls on huge tree trunks, they had a bunch of carpenters remodel the interiors to serve as living quarters and such.

The space under the lowest deck is known as the bilge. It's full of rocks, sand, and disgusting water full of oils, filth and waste. It smells like a sewer, because it kind of is.


Due to my wonderful wife's assitance (because drawing grids is annoying, but she likes having something to do while she watches TV) a progress jump was made last night.

Part 1 is now functionally complete. I say functionally because I may go back and use a can of blue spray paint for water and such, or a green marker to put in the undergrowth.

Part 2 is 80% complete, needing gridding, buildings, and pier posts.

Part 4 is 90% functionally complete, only in need of about 4 more pier posts for the dock areas, and the building walls of the "gatehouse". Buildings will be removeable and collapsible, to aid in shipping. I forsee a tab and slot system involving popsicle sticks. Hooray for an expansive craft inventory!

Part 7 is 60% complete, needs final "dirt" layer of cardboard, then on to gridding and buildings.

36% complete, although the "Wreck" itself will take significant time on its own, so lets call it 30%.

I go tonight to play age of worms, and be terrified at the amount of cardboard one of my friends acquired for me. When I asked of him, I forgot he works at the college cafeteria. Apparently I need to bring a truck to pick it up. Awesome.

BTW, I don't have or know of any good places to post photo's of this monstrosity, but I do have a digital camera in good working order. If someone wouldn't mind hosting them, I could send a few photos as the work progresses.


The Black Bard wrote:

Due to my wonderful wife's assitance (because drawing grids is annoying, but she likes having something to do while she watches TV) a progress jump was made last night.

Part 1 is now functionally complete. I say functionally because I may go back and use a can of blue spray paint for water and such, or a green marker to put in the undergrowth.

Part 2 is 80% complete, needing gridding, buildings, and pier posts.

Part 4 is 90% functionally complete, only in need of about 4 more pier posts for the dock areas, and the building walls of the "gatehouse". Buildings will be removeable and collapsible, to aid in shipping. I forsee a tab and slot system involving popsicle sticks. Hooray for an expansive craft inventory!

Part 7 is 60% complete, needs final "dirt" layer of cardboard, then on to gridding and buildings.

36% complete, although the "Wreck" itself will take significant time on its own, so lets call it 30%.

I go tonight to play age of worms, and be terrified at the amount of cardboard one of my friends acquired for me. When I asked of him, I forgot he works at the college cafeteria. Apparently I need to bring a truck to pick it up. Awesome.

BTW, I don't have or know of any good places to post photo's of this monstrosity, but I do have a digital camera in good working order. If someone wouldn't mind hosting them, I could send a few photos as the work progresses.

I can host them if you send them to me in mail: gabor@elderbrain.com

I will put them under www.elderbrain.com/thewreck


The Black Bard wrote:
BTW, I don't have or know of any good places to post photo's of this monstrosity, but I do have a digital camera in good working order. If someone wouldn't mind hosting them, I could send a few photos as the work progresses.

I've had great service from Photobucket (http://photobucket.com/). A Free Account allows up to a gig of storage.


I have tried to do this in 3D and failed miserably. Holy cow, no disrespect to Paizo but what a bad map. As far as I can tell, this map was designed by M.C. Escher.
Is there more than one tree/support strut/whatever? Two? Three? How does the Baeledictum connect with H1 when there's nothing in H1 corresponding to it? Is the Glad on the same tree as the Baeledictum, and if so, why is it drawn on a different one? What is supporting Vanthus' room (I4)? Is that area on either tree, or is it just kind of floating out there?


PROGRESS REPORT and a question.

I'll be breif, as I'm waiting for my wife to swing by and change for a job interview she's been dying to get. (Uses her major, better pay, better work enviorment, more satsifaction, etc.)

Progress is in the 45% range now, and as I look at the map of the Wreck itself, I am confused. In areas like E3 and F2, are the "pilings" described in the text basically big poles? (I know what pilings are, but these are a bit... unusually large) So the rope brides go out to a big pole, there's a ladder to the top, then another rope bridge to the destination?

Clarification would be nice, just so I'm sure.

The Exchange

office_ninja wrote:

As far as I can tell, this map was designed by M.C. Escher.

Or a Chaotic Evil pirate tainted by the Abyss..... (Johnny Depp voice: "Lemorian Pirate."

Ya want logical maps, fight Lawful Evil baddies!

Honestly, I loved the Escher reference.

Tom


Anyone know where the rope bridge from the NW side of the Baeldictum actually goes to? It says it goes to the deck of the Two Faced Wretch, but that's 40 feet below and it doesn't have far to go laterally. Maybe it connects to the F2 piling? But that would make the piling 100 feet tall, and it was said to be only 60.

Maybe I'll just have it be a rope ladder down to the Two Faced Wretch.

If anyone can paint a clearer picture, please do, otherwise its going to be a vertical rope ladder.


The Black Bard wrote:

Anyone know where the rope bridge from the NW side of the Baeldictum actually goes to? It says it goes to the deck of the Two Faced Wretch, but that's 40 feet below and it doesn't have far to go laterally. Maybe it connects to the F2 piling? But that would make the piling 100 feet tall, and it was said to be only 60.

Maybe I'll just have it be a rope ladder down to the Two Faced Wretch.

If anyone can paint a clearer picture, please do, otherwise its going to be a vertical rope ladder.

I was a bit puzzled by this when I reviewed the adventure as well. The forward mast of the Baeldictum (near I1) should be directly over F2, so I don't see how the bridge in question can do so, unless it is a ladder that curves back under the hull of the Baeldictum. Instead, I would make it into a nearly vertical rope ladder connecting to the NW corner of the Two-Faced Wretch (H1). That seems to make the most sense.


PROGRESS REPORT

[1][2][3]
[4][5][6]
[7][8][9] and the Wreck itself [10]

Parts 1,4,5, and 7 are 100% Complete.

Parts 2 and 8 are 60% complete. Landmass completed, no structures. Grid is complete, structures (piers) non-withstanding. Structure (D8) is complete, ready for placement. Structure D6-7 not complete, but peices are cut and ready for assembly.

Part 3 & 4 have bases completed. 10% completion each. Structures D10 and D11 are complete.

Part 9 is 70% complete. Landmasses completed, partial ship complete. Grid at 50% completion.

Part 10 is 25% complete. Support structures (aka trees) passed initial design and testing phase. Ship G (The Anger) complete excepting internal walls. The Glad is complete. All other ships except Baeldictum have completed decks, awaiting external and internal walls.

It is now stupid o-clock, and I have a job interview in less than 7 hours. Sleep now, more work on this incredibly frustrating (and fun) project, then Pirates of the Caribbean 3, then Age of Worms, then sleep, then work on project, then Savage Tide. 2 days left.

Final prognosis (as I probably wont be posting until after my Savage Tide game on Saterday):
Progress 63.5 percent complete.
Prognosis: Completion on time, but barebones. May add "embelishments" for next week's game, and for overall completion.


As an aside, I just saw the new Pirates movie, and pirate HQ does indeed have a big ol fortress made of the hulls of ships stacked high and affixed to one another.


office_ninja wrote:
As an aside, I just saw the new Pirates movie, and pirate HQ does indeed have a big ol fortress made of the hulls of ships stacked high and affixed to one another.

You just beated me. I am watching the thing a i write and it has the Wreck in it. Does Paizo have subscribers at Disney? :)


Yeah, stupid (also known as totally awesome) movie nearly killed my desire to finish the Wreck because it wouldn't look that cool.

Then my PCs got to the base, I called break and assembled the peices while they went for snacks.

Even at 75% completion, it looks AWESOME.

I'm wrapping up the last 25% this week, pictures to be sent to those who offered to host soon!

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

The Black Bard wrote:
Even at 75% completion, it looks AWESOME.

Sweet! You've earned it!


The Black Bard wrote:

Yeah, stupid (also known as totally awesome) movie nearly killed my desire to finish the Wreck because it wouldn't look that cool.

Then my PCs got to the base, I called break and assembled the peices while they went for snacks.

Even at 75% completion, it looks AWESOME.

I'm wrapping up the last 25% this week, pictures to be sent to those who offered to host soon!

Dont even think about giving up! The wreck you make will be THE thing. The other is just a bunch of ships piled on each other :)

Dark Archive

The Black Bard wrote:
I'm wrapping up the last 25% this week, pictures to be sent to those who offered to host soon!

Status update?

Dark Archive

bump


Ok so websmithing and model making are both cross-class skills for me but give these a shot.

The Wretch

I will try and size the pics to the web in a few days. And add comments about what I could have done more accurately (or easier).


Scott & Le Janke wrote:

Ok so websmithing and model making are both cross-class skills for me but give these a shot.

The Wretch

I will try and size the pics to the web in a few days. And add comments about what I could have done more accurately (or easier).

Very nice try! This makes the diagram a bit more comprehensive for me. Thanks!

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