Pathfinder & 4th Edition


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

Maybe you guys should however, push back some things like the Campaign Setting book and such until after 4E comes out (unless Wizards is kind enough to give you guys advanced info so you can start working on it to release in say summer 08).

Scarab Sages

JTStorm wrote:
How hard would it be to produce both of them in 4th edition format, with a download of any changes that would be needed to run in 3.5? Not so much the magic items and traps, just the NPCs. I would have no problem continuing my purchases if the conversion content were available for download.

If you watch this interview with Andy Collins (might be in part two) he pretty clearly states that 4.0 is a "clean break" in the system, and (in my words) that providing a conversion guide would be too complicated and the small booklet format (like the 3.0 to 3.5 guide) wouldn't be adequate to truly provide a full guide for converting everything. He recommends starting from scratch and giving the new system a good look to see how much it's improved.

He does say a lot of the newer rules stuff that's been in the accessory books was different attempts at trying new things to see how well they might work in a new edition, so it seems likely that it will have some amount of stuff in common with the current rules.

Edit: That's not to say that converting stuff between systems wouldn't be possible. It would be a lot more slugging, though, without an "official" guide from WotC to give some kind of baseline.


grrtiger

Now that announcement makes me happy.

It's better to build a new one than patch up an old broken one. This is the most well-known RPG on the market and it should have the most well-thought out rules. Right now, 3.5 embarrasses me.

God help them if they disappoint.


Well, I just polled all my players; granted most of us are older guys and certainly can afford the new stuff; but we all have a "who cares" attitude about 4th ed. sadly, also about pathfinder, but as I love Paizo and all I certainly will give that a read and probably a go; my group is all about good gaming; and that means good story lines and a nice mix of action, adventure, ect that still at time brings a tear or scares the bejezus out of you. I want passion in my games and players that love their characters; I could care less about dice roll software or near online mapping stuff; heck most of us are programmers, artists, database gurus and whatnot who just wrote all of our own stuff; this seems behind the curve to me. D&D is not about rules and state blocks; that should be seemless to the player; the game to me is all about the story. Not holding my breath on 4ed but am curious about pathfinder; have to wait till my copy arrives.


At this point, in regard to either continuing the use of my 3.5 books or switching to $e when it comes out, I'm unsure what I'm going to do. I do know that From now until May, the only gaming products I'm going to buy are from Paizo. The Pathfinder series and GameMastery modules. I see no need to purchase any of the 3.5 books that WotC still has in the hopper. No need to support a dead line of products. (I use that term with the connotation that WotC thinks that it's a dead line or else they'd not be bringing out 4e).

I guess I'm in the "Wait and See" camp. But I would like to request something from Paizo if/when both I and them convert to the new edition. How feasible would it be to post conversion notes for published AP's at that point. Obviously RotR and CotCT will be compatible in 3.5 . . after that, it's too early to tell now. But for those and even possibly the GameMastery modules, to have guidelines provided for updating the crunch in the 3.5 books to easily be used with 4e.

I think someone posted that it's not going to be an easy conversion process between 3.5 and 4, But even if the conversions provided are simply posted here on the paizo forums, that could be good enough I guess.

Er, I think I'm rambling at this point, so I'll shut up.


I don't see any reason why Paizo products shouldn't stay as cutting edge as they possibly can and update Pathfinder/GameMastery stuff to reflect the latest edition of D&D. Now, to be sensitive to those of us without a lot of discretionary, I'd hope there'd be easy conversion guidelines to use with 3.x but I'm all for them staying current.

The Exchange

grrtigger wrote:
If you watch this interview with Andy Collins (might be in part two) he pretty clearly states that 4.0 is a "clean break" in the system, and (in my words) that providing a conversion guide would be too complicated and the small booklet format (like the 3.0 to 3.5 guide) wouldn't be adequate to truly provide a full guide for converting everything. He recommends starting from scratch and giving the new system a good look to see how much it's improved.
Kruelaid wrote:

grrtiger

Now that announcement makes me happy.

It's better to build a new one than patch up an old broken one. This is the most well-known RPG on the market and it should have the most well-thought out rules. Right now, 3.5 embarrasses me.

God help them if they disappoint.

Although I agree that we might be ready to rebuild form scratch, it will force Die Hard 3.5 players away. It will also will hurt Paizo since they probably can not support two 'completely different' systems. I would rather have moved 3.5 to Digital. Then later offer 4.0. If this is as different as it sounds, 3.5 will form an island of players and Paizo will have to decide which is most profitable to sell too. I think eventually Paizo will have to switch.

Dark Archive Contributor

William Pall wrote:
I do know that From now until May, the only gaming products I'm going to buy are from Paizo.

YAY!!! :D

You get a cookie!

Liberty's Edge

Duncan Clyborne wrote:
I think eventually Paizo will have to switch.

That'll probably be when I switch, too. Some of what I've heard about 4e sounds neat, but I see no reason to switch until Pathfinder does.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I won't be playing 4th Ed for at least 3 years(maybe never- I might wait for 5th to come out.) If Pathfinder goes 4th, I will probably be discontinuing my month-to-month. This is due to the somewhere nearly 50 3.5 ed books and several thousand version 1 D&D minis I now have. I enjoy 3.5 and will be playing it for at least that long, longer if it continues to get support from parties other than WOTC.
In a way, I'm greatful to WOTC for announcing the 4th Edition & DDM 2.0, because it means I no longer feel any urge whatsoever to buy anything more from them. I will continue to buy from Paizo as long as they support 3.5.

That being said, I would completely understand any decision Paizo made to switch to the new game in town, based on the need to follow the market. I just won't be part of that particular market. I would love it if Paizo could find a way to continue to support the market I belong to, steadfast 3.5 players/dms.


Not to get totally off-topic but did anyone else find the online thing pretty pale considering nwn has been around for what, 6 years? I assume along with pulling the mags they will be pulling the bioware/obsidian liscence? Otherwise they have decided to go head to head at making a computer game, with companies that actually make computer games.

Best this could turn out is the rules are an interesting change, I already stopped getting wotc 3.5 books after a few seemed really weak so I would only buy the core from them anyway.

But the only people who know if the new game will be fun work at wotc, and I don't think they will be telling. So for now, I could care less.

But oh yeah on topic.. if the paths are good enough that I am still concerned about the rules being used a year from now, I'll be happy as hell!


Mike McArtor wrote:

I suspect our decision to go with fourth edition is going to depend greatly on what fourth edition looks like.

It's likely we'll switch, though.

I have to ask, with the first two Pathfinder adventure paths being 3.5, and a distinct possibility of the 3rd path being 4th edition, if Paizo does switch, would there be a chance of a conversion pdf for the material already present? Not so much of the adventures, but the mechanics from the other halves of the books?


Reckless wrote:

I won't be playing 4th Ed for at least 3 years(maybe never- I might wait for 5th to come out.) If Pathfinder goes 4th, I will probably be discontinuing my month-to-month. This is due to the somewhere nearly 50 3.5 ed books and several thousand version 1 D&D minis I now have. I enjoy 3.5 and will be playing it for at least that long, longer if it continues to get support from parties other than WOTC.

In a way, I'm greatful to WOTC for announcing the 4th Edition & DDM 2.0, because it means I no longer feel any urge whatsoever to buy anything more from them. I will continue to buy from Paizo as long as they support 3.5.

That being said, I would completely understand any decision Paizo made to switch to the new game in town, based on the need to follow the market. I just won't be part of that particular market. I would love it if Paizo could find a way to continue to support the market I belong to, steadfast 3.5 players/dms.

Wow Reckless - you nicely summed up my feelings just about perfectly. WOTC lost most of my respect when they pulled Codemonkeypublishing.com's license to produce E-Tools, and the rest with Dragon and Dungeon. They're simply obsolete now, at least to me.

I'll fully support Paizo, unless/until they switch to 4.0. After that, like you said, I'd understand, but wouldn't be a market.

Dark Archive

I find it curious that there are a number of people who would quit utilizing Pathfinder if it were to shift to 4th edition.

I don't play 3e but I'm still a subscriber. I can crunch stats and convert for any game that I chose to play. Its the storyline that I'm into Pathfinder for. Saves me a lot of work.

For example, I'll be running Rise of the Runelords using Castles & Crusades. Sure, I've got some crunch to convert, but the whole story arc is taken care of for me. Thats a big plus.

Should Pathfinder switch to 4th edition? *shrugs* Will still do the same. Convert the crunch, use the story arc. Considering the sheer amount of time I'll save only having to number crunch, I still consider it a lot of bang for my buck.

Liberty's Edge

DangerDwarf wrote:

I find it curious that there are a number of people who would quit utilizing Pathfinder if it were to shift to 4th edition.

I don't play 3e but I'm still a subscriber. I can crunch stats and convert for any game that I chose to play. Its the storyline that I'm into Pathfinder for. Saves me a lot of work.

My thoughts exactly.


DangerDwarf and Andrew Turner,

It is good that you will still get use from Pathfinder / GameMastery stuff switching to 4th Edition.

But there is a decent sized portion of the D&D market that just don't need the story arc. They are there for the crunch. (Mostly all of the people I have gamed with have been top notch story writers. It's the mechanics they fail at.)

For those people, the system switch would render the material useless.

Liberty's Edge

Disenchanter wrote:

DangerDwarf and Andrew Turner,

It is good that you will still get use from Pathfinder / GameMastery stuff switching to 4th Edition.

But there is a decent sized portion of the D&D market that just don't need the story arc. They are there for the crunch. (Mostly all of the people I have gamed with have been top notch story writers. It's the mechanics they fail at.)

For those people, the system switch would render the material useless.

Not the first time I've heard that, and locally, too. You're absolutely right--there are a great many who really want the numbers over the plot. I fiddle with the numbers so much as it is, being required to juggle them doesn't affect me.

But I think I'm in the minority.

Dark Archive

Yeah, I'm one who prefers plot over crunch. I generally work ungodly hours each week so, someone else developing the ongoing plot for me is a HUGE time saver for me. The number crunch takes a considerably less amount of my time, thus freeing me up for other pursuits in addition to delivering some sweet gaming.

Sovereign Court

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Mike McArtor wrote:
John Robey wrote:
I would be very surprised if Paizo didn't convert, while sticking to the OGL content. That said, I agree that it should be done "between paths" rather than in the middle of one.

This I guarantee.* We will finish out the second Pathfinder Adventure Path in 3.5 and will not switch to fourth edition part-way through.

---

* As much as I can guarantee anything, of course. ;)

The funny thing is: The only drawback of Paizo's OGL publications (no access to intellectual properties of WotC, i.e. rule supplements and certain critters) is rendered almost obsolete by 4e:

There will be only the core rules for quite some time.
No supplementary rules Paizo doesn't have access to.
During this initial time quality content will mean all the difference between good and bad publications.

And I am quite optimistic, that Paizo will not only prevail, but gather many new fans during this period.

Greetings,
Günther

P.S.
I am still very ambivalent about 4e. If it turned out to be something like 3.75e, I'd be with it without second thought.
Apparently the mechanical changes are more drastic, though (30 character levels, i.e. different level scalation; "Book of 9 swords"-like fighter powers, "racial levels"...). WotC officially discarded plans for a conversion guide (-> too complex according to youtube interview with a WotC developper). This means: 3.5 crunch material rendered useless. And I do own somewhat too much of the latter to easily switch to 4e.

Liberty's Edge

Reckless wrote:

I won't be playing 4th Ed for at least 3 years(maybe never- I might wait for 5th to come out.) If Pathfinder goes 4th, I will probably be discontinuing my month-to-month. This is due to the somewhere nearly 50 3.5 ed books and several thousand version 1 D&D minis I now have...

While the stats for the minis might change, the minis themselves are still pretty awesome. Even if I decided to eschew 4e altogether, it would have zero impact on whether or not I continue to purchase D&D minis, which I buy for RPG use--in fact, I've never played the D&D Minis game.

A good example of what I mean: I use Dreamscape minis in my D&D game, because they look cool--I don't have the foggiest notion how to play Dreamscape...

Scarab Sages

Phil. L wrote:
A lot of people on these messageboards are deluding themselves. As soon as 4e is released Paizo will change over to it. It won't happen overnight (they may want to finish their 2nd Pathfinder series first) but the 3rd Pathfinder series will be 4e as long as it's OGL. The only way they won't change to 4e is if it's not OGL.

Dungeon changed from 3.0 to 3.5 with very little warning, and it was in the middle of Shackled City.

Having said that; they were tied to a D20 licence and their links to WOTC, so were pretty much forced to use the current version of the SRD, whether they wanted or not.

OGL does not require a publisher to follow WOTC lead, so they should be able to maintain consistency throughout the entire current adventure path.
After that, of course; who knows, but they could then have had several months to assess the public mood.

Grand Lodge

drjones wrote:
Not to get totally off-topic but did anyone else find the online thing pretty pale considering nwn has been around for what, 6 years? I assume along with pulling the mags they will be pulling the bioware/obsidian liscence? Otherwise they have decided to go head to head at making a computer game, with companies that actually make computer games.

I'd be shocked if they did so. For one thing, Atari (the publisher of the computer games) is another subsidiary of Hasbro. Besides, the NWN series is HARD to use as a virtual tabletop. It can be done, but it takes a LOT of work and there are serious limitations to doing so (for one thing, it's impossible to generate new environments on the fly in the NWN series games). What NWN works great for in multiplayer mode is to play a multiplayer CRPG. As an online representation of a tabletop RPG, it's pretty lousy.

A CRPG is an entirely different thing from a virtual tabletop.

Scarab Sages

Andrew Turner wrote:
While the stats for the minis might change, the minis themselves are still pretty awesome....I continue to purchase D&D minis, which I buy for RPG use--in fact, I've never played the D&D Minis game...I use Dreamscape minis in my D&D game, because they look cool--I don't have the foggiest notion how to play Dreamscape...

I am ambivalent about many of the D&D Minis; I may be in a rare position of having collected miniatures of all manufacturers for a quarter century, so am able to whip up a lot of the 'usual suspects' such as orcs, goblins, militia, and most heroes, though many are yet to be painted...

What I really wanted, and expected, when I heard of the D&D Minis idea, was that we would finally get figs for the game-specific copyrighted creatures, such as beholders, mind flayers, umber hulks and am baffled why many of the creatures from even the first Monster Manual have yet to be touched upon, or have made a 'blink and you miss it' cameo, before disappearing into deletion.

I also disagree with the random packaging and rarity distribution. A gaming group does not need multiples of hero types from the Good factions, but requires many copies of monsters, especially the goons, thugs and common, social creatures. A lone kobold is no use to anyone; they should be available in packs of a dozen (4 leaders, + 8 warriors, maybe with a split of weapons?)?. Anyone else agree?

Plus, the Good faction tend to be far more spindly, fragile, poorly detailed and poorly painted than the others...

I agree re Dreamscape; though I select specific ones, rather than random selection. Dreamscape is a larger scale than D&D Minis, so the most useful ones are those who portray larger than life monsters, or cool, unique outsiders, etc.

Heroclix and MageKnight have also managed to find their way into my collection, but only if I see them going cheap. There's many good fantasy archetypes, if you look past the immediate marketing, eg;

Dr Doom - Warforged Wizard,
Human Torch - elemental,
Sue Storm - ghost, etc.

We older gamers grew up in leaner times, and are used to improvising.
As, I'm sure we will, when 4E comes around...

Scarab Sages

Duncan Clyborne wrote:
Although I agree that we might be ready to rebuild form scratch, it will force Die Hard 3.5 players away.

There's a Die Hard d20 game?

Dibs on Bruce Willis' dirty vest!

Liberty's Edge

For me personally, the decision to switch to 4th edition hinges entirely upon a return of Dragon and Dungeon magazines in print. I still feel betrayed by WotC's decision to pull the license from Paizo. The magazines were my favorite supplement (among oh so many supplements that I purchased). Even if I didn't feel so strongly about the actual product, WotC has epitomized poor customer service in their response to concerned fans.

Since I don't intend to purchase the core rules for 4th edition, and having learned they are not intended to be compatible with 3rd edition (or 3.5), I may be forced to discontinue my ongoing subscriptions to Pathfinder and GameMastery.

If a switch to 4th edition is planned, please announce it clearly so that I can make an informed decision when the time comes.

And just because it can't be said enough, I will feel very bad if I do stop purchasing your fine products because I know that behind them are fine people who have been doing a tremendous job making sure everything they produce is top quality. There isn't another gaming company that has established such a strong reputation in such a short amount of time. That combined with your high level of customer service means that I might just continue to purchase the products if you do switch to 4th edition, even though it is entirely possible that I would get no use from them at all.


DangerDwarf wrote:
Yeah, I'm one who prefers plot over crunch. I generally work ungodly hours each week so, someone else developing the ongoing plot for me is a HUGE time saver for me. The number crunch takes a considerably less amount of my time, thus freeing me up for other pursuits in addition to delivering some sweet gaming.

I guess everyone is different. For me, plot comes easy. It comes to me while I'm working, sitting on the subway, taking a s+#$. Those kind of things. The great things about plot is, that unless they are very very complex, you kan keep them in your head, or just jot down some ideas. Now, the stats... that's what's taking me time, and that's why I prefer to pull NPCs and advanced monsters from Dungeon (and now Pathfinder and GameMastery).

As for 4th edition.. I am starting Red Hand of Doom soon, which probably will keep us occupied until 4th edition. After that.. well, I reckon I have a couple of Pathfinder adventure paths and enough Dungeon and GameMastery modules to last a couple of campaigns. That being said, I know myself so well that I guess I will at least pick up the PHB or something. If I eventually make the transition to 4th edition, I will most likely be buying the three core books and then buy Paizo adventures.

Liberty's Edge

Snorter wrote:
...I also disagree with the random packaging and rarity distribution. A gaming group does not need multiples of hero types from the Good factions, but requires many copies of monsters, especially the goons, thugs and common, social creatures. A lone kobold is no use to anyone; they should be available in packs of a dozen (4 leaders, + 8 warriors, maybe with a split of weapons?)?. Anyone else agree?...I agree re Dreamscape; though I select specific ones, rather than random selection...

I agree absolutely. I should say that when I bought my one WotDQ booster pack, I deliberately picked up the...uhh...heaviest one on the shelf...and got a Tiamat.

Other than a couple boosters bought (OK, about five or six) at the launch of the minis line, I began buying all my minis in separates or lots on ebay exactly for the reasons you state.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
DangerDwarf wrote:

I find it curious that there are a number of people who would quit utilizing Pathfinder if it were to shift to 4th edition.

I don't play 3e but I'm still a subscriber. I can crunch stats and convert for any game that I chose to play. Its the storyline that I'm into Pathfinder for. Saves me a lot of work.

For example, I'll be running Rise of the Runelords using Castles & Crusades. Sure, I've got some crunch to convert, but the whole story arc is taken care of for me. Thats a big plus.

Should Pathfinder switch to 4th edition? *shrugs* Will still do the same. Convert the crunch, use the story arc. Considering the sheer amount of time I'll save only having to number crunch, I still consider it a lot of bang for my buck.

Yeah, I hope they don't take this as a threat because it's not what it's intended as, but since I have no intention of switching to 4E, Pathfinder pretty much becomes useless to me if they do.

I buy pre-written adventures so that I don't have to do a lot of heavy lifting. As soon as this becomes the matter of converting things from one edition to another you lose me. From that interview with Andy Collins (when he says that forget about converting from 3.5 to 4E, it would be to messy and 4E was designed to be a clean break) that pretty much says that 4E makes everything (crunchwise) from 3.5 useless.

I have several years worth of 3.5 Dungeon adventures, including adventure paths (SC, AOW & ST), I have several WOTC adventures (Red Hand of Doom, Expedition to Ravenloft, Expedition to Greyhawk, etc) and almost all of the Goodman Games Dungeon Crawl Classics all of which become useless to me if I go over to 4E. It's money that was spent to support my hobby that would have been better off spent on other things if I go over to 4E, so I'm not going over to 4E.

since the announcement there are alot of people on both sides of the fence who have been unable to see the view of the opposing side. No one is coming to my house and forcing me to change editions. That seems to be the mantra that is repeated. What these idiots who are quick to throw out that mantra are missing is that's not what I'm worried about. I know that. It's when I start looking for new players 2-3 years for now it's going to be difficult to find them because I'm guessing most people will have switched over to 4E and will want to play that.

What galls me about the response from the already rabid 4E fanbase is the idea that I'm not aware that I'm a grown making my own decisions about what to buy. I'm not one of these basement dwelling fanboys who gets on ENWorld and b##%@es and moans about how people dont support the hobby. I put my money where my mouth is. I buy from Paizo, I buy from Green Ronin, Goodman Games WOTC, etc. I put my money where my mouth is. I've even started buying from my LGS again. That pretty much stops with 4E. the majority of my RPG purchases have been in support of 3.5. I spent on average maybe 20-30 a month on RPG stuff and at this point when I look back I might as well have spent that money on WOW or City of Heroes/Villians. I would have gotten more bang for my buck in terms of playtime.

If WOTC is trying to woo people away from MMORPG's they might be inadvertently driving a few of us in that direction financially speaking, especially if you're a DM like me. Like I said I'm going to keep running a 3.5 game as long as I have players, but once that well dries up, I'm done. As for now all of my RPG purchases are going to dry up pretty fast. I've subscribed to Pathfinder and because I'm such a big fan of theirs I'll stay subscribed through the first AP, but after that, I'm done.

Liberty's Edge

ShinHakkaider wrote:
...Like I said I'm going to keep running a 3.5 game as long as I have players, but once that well dries up, I'm done. As for now all of my RPG purchases are going to dry up pretty fast...

Nothing says you have to stop playing because the current edition changes. There are lots of groups out there still playing AD&D 1E, and as far as the well of players drying up, there's no reason you can't try to recruit new players and simply play v3.5. I know where you're coming from--I've got a mountain of un-played 3.0 and 3.5 adventures, but there's no reason I can't run those adventures separately under the 3.5 rules in addition to any 4e campaigns. My group is under new management now (I just moved--am flying out within a week), but they will finish Savage Tide under 3.5, have gotten half through N4 with 1E characters, so you can do multiple games if you don't want to convert. But I'm sure you could find a group, especially one of newbies, and simply play the edition you like best.

Dark Archive Contributor

JasonKain wrote:
I have to ask, with the first two Pathfinder adventure paths being 3.5, and a distinct possibility of the 3rd path being 4th edition, if Paizo does switch, would there be a chance of a conversion pdf for the material already present? Not so much of the adventures, but the mechanics from the other halves of the books?

We'll try. If what Andy said holds absolutely true it might not be plausible. At least not in the short term.

DeadDMWalking wrote:
If a switch to 4th edition is planned, please announce it clearly so that I can make an informed decision when the time comes.

We will. I'm pretty sure. :)


I think it would be unfair to expect Paizo to tell us what they are going to decide as to changing to 4th edition at this point.

I personally don't plan to throw away all my 3.5 materials any time soon. I still have some good gaming material I had planned to run for players after wrapping up our current Shackled City campaign which is on the verge of cocluding after more than a year and half of sessions. As long as there are players willing to play 3.5 nearby, I can continue to run a 3.5 game if I choose.

On the other hand, I plan to get the 4th edition core rule books regardless, and to look them over and see how I like the new rules (assuming the core books sell for about $20 or $25 each). If I find the new rules really do improve the game experience, then I will most assuredly try running a campaign with 4th edition rules.

Once I've tried 4th edition, only then will I be in a position to decide whether I would hope for Pathfinder to switch to 4th edition or to stay with 3.5.


Edit: That's not to say that converting stuff between systems wouldn't be possible. It would be a lot more slugging, though, without an "official" guide from WotC to give some kind of baseline.

I'm not really thinking about an 'Official' conversion guide from WOTC. Sorry if I wasn't clear in my OP. The question would be to Paizo Staff, how hard would it be to put out some sort of 'mini-download' with just simple conversion ideas? For example, In Room 10 the module says 'Kobolds (4)', nothing would really be needed. But in Room 14 there is a 3rd level Wizard with 4th edition stats. In the 'mini-download' for us old-timers, have the 3rd level Wizard stated up with 3.5 version stats. Is that even a possibility?

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Something I just found in Chris Perkins' Blog over at the wizboards:

Chris Perkins wrote:

FRIDAY

Scott Rouse (my roommate at the show) and I chatted with Lisa Stevens and Erik Mona from Paizo to discuss 4th Edition plans. We also met with other d20 publishers throughout the show, first to assure them that the OGL would be continuing under 4E, and that we're interested in working with them to iron out things that didn't work so well with 3E. Very exciting!

So Paizo gets special treatment :D

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
WormysQueue wrote:

Something I just found in Chris Perkins' Blog over at the wizboards:

Chris Perkins wrote:

FRIDAY

Scott Rouse (my roommate at the show) and I chatted with Lisa Stevens and Erik Mona from Paizo to discuss 4th Edition plans. We also met with other d20 publishers throughout the show, first to assure them that the OGL would be continuing under 4E, and that we're interested in working with them to iron out things that didn't work so well with 3E. Very exciting!
So Paizo gets special treatment :D

Only makes sense since Paizo made Dragon and Dungeon desireable enough for WotC to take them back.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
DitheringFool wrote:
Only makes sense since Paizo made Dragon and Dungeon desireable enough for WotC to take them back.

Yeah but it also shows that the tales of the ongoing good relationship between Paizo and WotC aren't just some kind of polite, but white lie.

That is something all those WotC-Haters tend to forget (IMHO): WotC is not our enemy. They have to succeed in a business, but this business is not about "How to alienate as much players as possible". It's quite the contrary.

Which may well be my only comment to all those "WotC is the biggest [insert offense] of all times"-posts popping up faster as I can read them

Liberty's Edge

WormysQueue wrote:
DitheringFool wrote:
Only makes sense since Paizo made Dragon and Dungeon desireable enough for WotC to take them back.

Yeah but it also shows that the tales of the ongoing good relationship between Paizo and WotC aren't just some kind of polite, but white lie.

That is something all those WotC-Haters tend to forget (IMHO): WotC is not our enemy. They have to succeed in a business, but this business is not about "How to alienate as much players as possible". It's quite the contrary.

Which may well be my only comment to all those "WotC is the biggest [insert offense] of all times"-posts popping up faster as I can read them

Golarion should be the core setting for 4e then =p


WormysQueue wrote:
So Paizo gets special treatment :D

I don't think that Paizo is getting special treatment in regard to third party producers of 4e product. I just think that they were at the top of the que.


Coridan wrote:
Golarion should be the core setting for 4e then =p

<Bleep> NO! I want the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign setting to remain in Paizo's hands. I do not want it to be handed off to Hasbro.


I am switching to 4th edition as soon as it comes out. I have grown very weary of running 3.5 over the last few years. I plan on choosing exactly what books I want to keep as a core 3.x set and condense all the feats into a binder, at which time I will give away the books I no longer need.
Rise of the Runelords will be my last 3.x adventure I will probably run. By the time I get done with that, someone else will start running something, and 4th edition will start rolling out.

That being said I will continue my subscription to pathfinder/gamemastery no matter what. I have enough crunch to last me the rest of my life, I want fluff and plan on using the pathfinder setting for 3.5, 4, 5 and probably til one day I quit all together.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
WormysQueue wrote:
That is something all those WotC-Haters tend to forget (IMHO): WotC is not our enemy. They have to succeed in a business, but this business is not about "How to alienate as much players as possible". It's quite the contrary.

I know you aren't calling me a WotC-hater, but I readily admit that they are pretty low on my buddy scale.

I agree (see the Sabation thread) that DnD can evolve. There are areas of the game that need some TLC. It is my opinion and probably that of many "WotC-Haters" that the apparent Big Business bulldog approach Hasbro/WotC takes is what has us unsympathetic.

I try to buy everything I can from Paizo because I believe in them as a company. Their sincerity is palpable to the most casual observer. When they migrate to 4e it will because they feel like their customers/fans are amiable to it. They'll think, ask, and research. I wont feel like I've just been given the middle finger.

So again. It's not about the game I love being changed. It's about corporate image. And just because a happy spokesman says it's all good doesn't mean it is.

Dark Archive Contributor

JTStorm wrote:


In the 'mini-download' for us old-timers, have the 3rd level Wizard stated up with 3.5 version stats. Is that even a possibility?

To be completely honest, JTStorm, I don't know. Until we've had a chance to look at 4e we won't know how hard a conversion would be. Sorry it's not much of an answer, but it's also not a cop-out. We just honestly don't know.

Sovereign Court

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Mike McArtor wrote:


To be completely honest, JTStorm, I don't know. Until we've had a chance to look at 4e we won't know how hard a conversion would be. Sorry it's not much of an answer, but it's also not a cop-out. We just honestly don't know.

Hi there,

I guess, all of us will be only in the know (you somewhat earlier than us) after seing 4e.

Some interesting hints can be found in an interview with Rob Heinsoo at GenCon, though: According to him a mechanical conversion is unrealistic, a conversion to the closest equivalent in 4e is manageable, though.

You find the interview video here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=welcome/conventions/gencon07

Greetings,
Günther

Sovereign Court

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
WormysQueue wrote:


Yeah but it also shows that the tales of the ongoing good relationship between Paizo and WotC aren't just some kind of polite, but white lie.

That is something all those WotC-Haters tend to forget (IMHO): WotC is not our enemy. They have to succeed in a business, but this business is not about "How to alienate as much players as possible". It's quite the contrary.

Which may well be my only comment to all those "WotC is the biggest [insert offense] of all times"-posts popping up faster as I can read them

So true!

Another proof: Who wrote "Return to Castle Greyhawk"? ;-)
Basically it was an all-Paizo product published by WotC.

Greetings,
Günther

Sovereign Court

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
William Pall wrote:
Coridan wrote:
Golarion should be the core setting for 4e then =p
<Bleep> NO! I want the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign setting to remain in Paizo's hands. I do not want it to be handed off to Hasbro.

Agreed.

Handing it over to WotC would mean that WotC controls the content, too.

On the other hand I'd always prefer Greyhawk over Golarion, although I'm a pretty recent convert and still like my FR campaign. ;-)

Greetings,
Günther

Sovereign Court

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
DitheringFool wrote:

I try to buy everything I can from Paizo because I believe in them as a company. Their sincerity is palpable to the most casual observer. When they migrate to 4e it will because they feel like their customers/fans are amiable to it. They'll think, ask, and research. I wont feel like I've just been given the middle finger.

So again. It's not about the game I love being changed. It's about corporate image. And just because a happy spokesman says it's all good doesn't mean it is.

I agree with you on Paizo.

On the other hand the D&D designers at GenCon do a pretty good job at persuading me that they are sincerely listening to the feed back they receive there. See the interviews with James Wyatt and Rob Heinsoo:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=welcome/conventions/gencon07

Paizo outdos them easily in this aspect, but then Paizo is a smaller company and doesn't have to maintain/ develop a rule set in addition to the periodicals/ adventure paths.

Greetings,
Günther


Sadly, if Pathfinder goes 4th edition I'd have to bid Pathfinder adieu. I subscribed to Pathfinder because I wanted to support Paizo after WotC pulled the plug on Dungeon & Dragon.

I won't be supporting WotC from this point onward (unless my group utterly insists on going over to 4th edition... which I'm hoping won't be the case) and, as such, have no interest in picking up 4th edition.

I understand that Paizo has to go with the flow and publish materials for the game system that the majority of its customers are playing... though that would leave me behind.

Truth be told, I'd LOVE to see Paizo use the 3.5 SRD and OGL to create the best damn version of D&D (under some other title of course) to ever see the light of day (or florescent light of some nerd lair, as the case would probably be). Yes, they'd be biting the hand that fed them BUT, if the game took off that would rock!!!!

WotC is biting the hands that fed them and they'd get their just desserts if 4th edition utterly failed.


As if. Sheese. What a bunch of glumsters.

I haven't seen 4e (obviously) but the things it aims to fix are exactly the things I disliked in 3e/3.5e: Magic item XP BS, the way encounters are built, ECL's, and so forth. From the sound of it, the sorcerer class will be obsolete and the wizard will be the beneficiary. Rogues are now a martial class, which sounds to me like they'll gain some improvements there as well. The stat blocks, etc. etc....a lot I grew to dislike and disregard. I won't miss it.

And yes...for those of you NOT wanting to buy more books or rewrite older adventures...it will be a pain. But as far as I'm concerned I'm done with buying tons of books and magazines as well. I plan on getting the "Core 4" and making sure as much of my future purchases are in the form of PDF's and other downloadable content. I will resort to paying full retail just for the ease of use--and to give my poor bookshelves a reprieve. I have NO DOUBT that Paizo will adjust to 4e and they'll do a good job. They will be supported and they deserve to be so.

So until then, game on and relax.

Liberty's Edge

Chris Perry wrote:
... I plan on getting the "Core 4" ...

What's the 4th book?


Andrew Turner wrote:
Chris Perry wrote:
... I plan on getting the "Core 4" ...
What's the 4th book?

*L* I had the 4e thing on my mind they mentioned earlier on EE World: physical products, online development, etc... Only 3 core books, my bad. Although if there was a 4th containing 4e versions of more sought-after supplemental classes (e.g., the warlock) I'd consider it, well...if it's supplemental it can't be core. Oh well.

--S.


Oh and just in case the glumsters didn't say it yet, I will:

"4e is to WotC what Vista is to Microsoft."

There, my 5-second moment of shared fellowship is done. Back to my previous stance.

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