Pathfinder & 4th Edition


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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A lot of people on these messageboards are deluding themselves. As soon as 4e is released Paizo will change over to it. It won't happen overnight (they may want to finish their 2nd Pathfinder series first) but the 3rd Pathfinder series will be 4e as long as it's OGL. The only way they won't change to 4e is if it's not OGL.

Also, if the changes from 3.5 to 4e are not catastrophic Paizo may end up providing conversion notes for the 2nd Pathfinder series and change over to 4e midway through the adventure path.

As it is, no one should expect a reply from Paizo staff on the matter until after CenCon is finished and they have seen what WotC is unveiling. Asking them now is wasting your breath.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Phil. L wrote:

A lot of people on these messageboards are deluding themselves. As soon as 4e is released Paizo will change over to it. It won't happen overnight (they may want to finish their 2nd Pathfinder series first) but the 3rd Pathfinder series will be 4e as long as it's OGL. The only way they won't change to 4e is if it's not OGL.

Agreed. Plus, there's no way Paizo is going to say "we're switching to 4e" while they are trying to sell you 3.5e products.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

If the Pathfinder switch to 4.0 really is happening next summer then I'd prefer that they wait to release the monster books and such until they make the switch. I don't want to buy a bunch of 3.5 books in the first quarter only to find the setting converting to the new version in the third quarter.

Scarab Sages

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

My theory.

WoTC wanted to trump all the hype about Pathfinder so they made this announcement.

just a theory.


Why don't we all just jump the gun..er.. jump the Ultra-Death Star Mega Cannon of speculation and just get right to the truest D&D edition.. 6.0!! Mwwwa-haa-ha-ha-ha!! That's right- you know they're gonna do it!!

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Utak wrote:
If Paizo is taking a poll at this time, then I am in the 3.5 wagon.

Minor Threadjack

UTAK! I heard about what happened .... you doing alright man?


Xenophon wrote:
Sharoth wrote:
~grins~ Jeer at the fools that payed for 4.0?
No ,might distract me from whatever game I pickup to replace my LG fix. Because it'll probably be a mini's wargame. More than liklely Reapers Warlord. Or maybe back into Battletech, I've got a bunch of those mini's laying around still.

New box full of plastic 'Mechs on the way, with a set of rules if you need 'em. Battletech rules never change, they just ... add stuff... (and if you haven't picked up the two mostly-fiction books about the Jihad, you might want to take a look. I find them, and battletech short fiction stretching back to shrapnel, fascinating.)

Liberty's Edge

Sorry, I gotta say I vote for 4e, they're getting rid of Level Adjustment!


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Coridan wrote:
Sorry, I gotta say I vote for 4e, they're getting rid of Level Adjustment!

Seriously. That and the concept of gaining racial abilities throughout your career is a very solid concept; also I like the idea of giving fighters more oomph. It seems like they took Book of 9 Swords concepts made them mundane (as opposed to the supernatural effects of Bo9S) and will be giving them too the fighter.

I was, and am still, skeptical of 4e. However, the 4e version of the Beholder must have a charming eye now, because just a read through of the site did tweak my inner geek.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Oh, and guys I hate to say it . . but DI looks pretty cool. Come on adventures by Logue and a continuing Demonicon + character gen + the interactive dungeon you can use to roleplay on line with . .

Liberty's Edge

PlungingForward wrote:
New box full of plastic 'Mechs on the way, with a set of rules if you need 'em. Battletech rules never change,

Which is a shame because, a much as I digs me some BT, the rules are a stunning example of poor game design. Then again, FASA was always notorious for great fluff and less than great mechanics. *sigh*


I hope wizards is able to wow me. Shutting down their site because they failed to prepare for an utterly predictable onslaught of people wanting a glimpse does not make me confident in their ability to deliver a product for which I would have to pay a monthly fee. That's what worries me... that and the idea that I'd lose access to content I'd already paid for.

Books and magazines are for owning, not being licensed to read for x number of days.

- Ashavan


The Last Rogue wrote:
Oh, and guys I hate to say it . . but DI looks pretty cool. Come on adventures by Logue and a continuing Demonicon + character gen + the interactive dungeon you can use to roleplay on line with . .

Because none of that was possible before, of course?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Based on the news release, It sounds exactly like what they were saying for Star Wars Saga edition. I doubt there's going to be that much of a lead into it. Think 3.75, not 4e


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Burrito Al Pastor wrote:
The Last Rogue wrote:
Oh, and guys I hate to say it . . but DI looks pretty cool. Come on adventures by Logue and a continuing Demonicon + character gen + the interactive dungeon you can use to roleplay on line with . .
Because none of that was possible before, of course?

Lol . . .well arguing something's quality on the fact it is already or was once available is kind of silly, especially in this context. True, Demonicons by Jacobs and adventures by Logue were available before, but now they have a new home . . . the DI. Really that is all I was saying, and besides I am a bit of a one-stop shopper, if DI can offer all of this (and their demo video for tabletop-gaming and character gen look pretty nice in comparison to what I have seen currently out) and give me doses of Jacob, Logue, and the other goodness I have seen in recent Dragon/Dungeon, then it is ok in my book.


Well, I'm pretty much done with Wizards of the Coast. I have been with Paizo since I ran the Shackled City Adventure Path, and I will remain with them with whatever they decide to do.

Best case scenario in my opinion: Wizards releases 4e without going OGL, and they go out of business. I haven't bought anything Wizards for a couple years and I've been seeing a lot of friends and other people on the net say they are not happy with Wizards products of late either.

To me, it just looks like Wizards is out of ideas for crappy accessory books and decided to revamp the rules so that they can release the same stuff over again.

Bottom line: I'll go with whatever Pathfinder and Gamemastery go with, but would prefer not to have to buy a Players Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Masters Guide AGAIN.


I really hope Paizo continues to publish 3.5 material. Dreading 4E publication by them , I hope the worst that happens is they offer a 3.5 version and a 4E version. Too much money spent on 3.5, it's enjoyable, and I have years of playing it to come. Hmm... maybe I will pick up some of those back issues of Dungeon now...


Phil. L wrote:

A lot of people on these messageboards are deluding themselves. As soon as 4e is released Paizo will change over to it. It won't happen overnight (they may want to finish their 2nd Pathfinder series first) but the 3rd Pathfinder series will be 4e as long as it's OGL. The only way they won't change to 4e is if it's not OGL.

Also, if the changes from 3.5 to 4e are not catastrophic Paizo may end up providing conversion notes for the 2nd Pathfinder series and change over to 4e midway through the adventure path.

I'm not sure it will be immediate, but I suspect you're right.

Since I've been keeping track of Pathfinder I've been wondering why the new APs are 15 levels in six months. 4th edition has 30 levels. If six months is 15 levels then 12 months should be 30.

Of course it could just be coincidence, but it struck me as a strange choice from the get-go.


Hmmmmm. Thought provoking.

Whatever... I'm stoked. And apparently a lot of other people are too judging from the traffic on the D&D website.

I don't understand why people are b$~#+ing. Gaming has always been a continual investment in more and more rulebooks. If a guy doesn't invest in updates (like GURPS editions or D&D) every few years then he or she will invest in another game.

Unfortunately this is going to ding Pathfinder a little, but then I think they have planned for it. And Assuming Wizards issues an OGL, I'm sure Pathfinder will change, too.

Frankly, a lot of stuff about D&D's current rules pisses me off. Especially skill rolls, ability rolls, and classes. God help them if their improvements don't do something about this, cuz I'm gonna freeze my turds UPS them to Bill Slaviscek if he doesn't.

Liberty's Edge

There is going to be an OGL see here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=905801

I think everyone needs to calm down a bit on the move to 4E. It's a lot of changes that were really necessary and isn't quite the game-killer like say Vampire: The Masquerade to Vampire: The Requiem changes were.

Honestly there really weren't any more books they could've made for 3.5 (Complete Champion was awful) and the company does need to make books to make money.

As long as they don't do a 4.5 3 years from now I don't have an issue with the switch.


Coridan wrote:


As long as they don't do a 4.5 3 years from now I don't have an issue with the switch.

ya thats a great concern of mine.. after re buying alot of books due to the 3 to 3.5 change I am Leary of jumping right in.

Basically the full set of core books won't be out till this time next year so the first 2 pathfinders should just be fine as 3.5.
After then ..who knows I hope 4e is awesome..but if 4.5 in 3 years is a real possibility I'm tempted to wait a and see what happens with 4e for a couple years before jumping on board.
The whole DI thing with a subscription really rubs me the wrong way tho. Dnd Isn't a MMORPG and all content paid for via a subscription better allow me to download and use at my convenience. if its all accessible only online while being a subscriber..then i'm out.

Liberty's Edge

Kruelaid wrote:

Hmmmmm. Thought provoking.

Whatever... I'm stoked. And apparently a lot of other people are too judging from the traffic on the D&D website.

I don't understand why people are b~!%!ing. Gaming has always been a continual investment in more and more rulebooks.

I agree; and I'm looking forward to investing in 4e, book-by-book.

My only caveat: I will not be happy if they recycle 3/3.5e art...


Andrew Turner wrote:

My only caveat: I will not be happy if they recycle 3/3.5e art...

They wont...4th edition looks really different.

Beholders seem to have fleshy mustaches like acatfish...and Trolls are muscular and stocky like ogres..No longer are they thin with warty hides and corded muscles.

Even the Chomatic and Metallic dragons looks cosmetically different...Which I think is a huge mistake.


Does anybody else think it's hysterical that the Wizards site is still down, as far as I can tell?
+1 Paizo
-1 Wizards


Jason Grubiak wrote:
Andrew Turner wrote:

My only caveat: I will not be happy if they recycle 3/3.5e art...

They wont...4th edition looks really different.

Beholders seem to have fleshy mustaches like acatfish...and Trolls are muscular and stocky like ogres..No longer are they thin with warty hides and corded muscles.

Even the Chomatic and Metallic dragons looks cosmetically different...Which I think is a huge mistake.

Of course the art has to be different, it has to offer them the opportunity to create brand new lines of mini's that you MUST buy to play the game.

Scarab Sages

Timault Azal-Darkwarren wrote:
Of course the art has to be different, it has to offer them the opportunity to create brand new lines of mini's that you MUST buy to play the game.

I'm still not clear on just why you would need to buy the minis to play...or why you would need any of the online content. so far as I can tell, there's still the three core books and everything else is supplemental...

Now if they put the content of those three books online and forced people to pay a subsciption-type monthly payment to access it...then I'd be a tad worried and upset.

And just to stay on topic, even if pathfinder switches over the 4E, that doesn't stop 3.5E playters from playing. How hard is it to swap the monsters for their 3.5 counterparts, or find a way to finagle in all the old rules (like skills, which in my prediction they are going to simplify immensely)? I do the same for 2E modules now.

The Exchange

I saw somewhere from a Paizo source that the Paizo goal would be to continue giving their customers what they want.*
Some other Paizo source said that they tend to support the main stream edition.** (Obviously my summaries)
That means someday they will support 4.0.

My theory is that Paizo will stay 3.5 for awhile. Then after the DI takes off a bit, they will continue publishing the Pathfinder hardcopy product in 3.5, but sell a 4.0 digital product through WotC.

This should make everyone happy.
1- 3.5 Die Hards will just ignore the whole 4.0 thing and buy Pathfinder.
2- 4.0 Newbies will just see good Paizo digital products coming through WotC.
3- Hybreds, like me, will have their hardcopy Pathfinder on the gaming table but ignore the stat blocks. We will just use the 4.0 DI to allow faster prep and game play. [This is what I do now. I take Dungeon and put the stat blocks into my computer.]
4- Paizo will be using WotC to increase market share. They just need 4.0 fans to reach the critical mass that will support Pathfinder convertion to 4.0.
5- WotC gets their slice of the pie.

Actually, I don't know if I want 3.5 Digitallized or 4.0 Digitalized. I want to choose. Hopefully, RPGXplorer or DM Genie or somebody will also convert Pathfinder to 3.5. I just want my computer to help me!

P.S. Paizo will do it allot cleverer than I described, but they will make Die Hards and Newbies both happy. Paizo resources are the only constaint. But if the 4.0 DI is so good, it should be easy for Paizo to make 4.0 modules.

* I am too lazy to research. I don't think it is that controversial.
** Still to lazy to research.

Dark Archive RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Jason Grubiak wrote:
Even the Chomatic and Metallic dragons looks cosmetically different...Which I think is a huge mistake.

Wait.... those bastards did away with Lockwood's dragons?!?! AARRRRRGH!


Fatespinner wrote:
Jason Grubiak wrote:
Even the Chromatic and Metallic dragons looks cosmetically different...Which I think is a huge mistake.
Wait.... those bastards did away with Lockwood's dragons?!?! AARRRRRGH!

Well the Red Dragon of the Dungeon Masters guide looks the same...sort of.

but the Green Dragon on the cover of the Miniature starter set look weird..has this odd looking booger on his nose.

So yeah Lockwoods Dragons have been tampered with...Very sad. I kind of wanted all 10 True Dragons in Gargantual form as those Icon miniatures...Or at least all 5 Chromatics...Now they wont look right. :(

Dark Archive Contributor

I suspect our decision to go with fourth edition is going to depend greatly on what fourth edition looks like.

It's likely we'll switch, though.


Duncan Clyborne wrote:
My theory is that Paizo will stay 3.5 for awhile. Then after the DI takes off a bit, they will continue publishing the Pathfinder hardcopy product in 3.5, but sell a 4.0 digital product through WotC.

I think this is a good idea.

I (for one) would like to roll real dice, move actual NOT virtual miniatures on a game table, and have complete control of character generation and access to my characters. The D&D I want to continue playing is around a table with others with tangible objects, not manipulating icons using a keyboard or mouse over a network with "voice chat" or "text chat."

I know Wizards isn't listening, but I have confidence that Paizo is and will continue to listen.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Tars Tarkas wrote:


I know Wizards isn't listening, but I have confidence that Paizo is and will continue to listen.

Apparently, Wizards isn't the only one not listening given that your description of 4e is completely misinformed. It's not an exclusive online platform, it's an additional element for those that prefer such things. You don't have to play online if you don't want to.

But I can see your point. Other people shouldn't get something they would use if you don't like it.

Scarab Sages

Personally I am against the idea of digitilizing it all and won't follow that part, but I can't really fault WotC for wanting to make more money and try to attract new people. The only part of is all that I find attractive is the virtual tabletop, since I am the DM for our group and I am away from the group for 4 months out of the year. this may allow me (and them) to keep playing throughout the summers when i'm gone. Unfortunately odds dictate that the program will never work anyhow and the servers will always be unavailable due to technical difficulties.

And as for Paizo switching over, chances are they will, but that won't stop me from buying their adventures. The exact rules aren't going to hinder the story at all. and that's what i'm buying it for anyhow: The great quality stories. And I find it curious that no one's asked about Gamemastery modules...although I assume they'll do the same as Pathfinder.


Mike McArtor wrote:

I suspect our decision to go with fourth edition is going to depend greatly on what fourth edition looks like.

It's likely we'll switch, though.

That is understandable.

As the game evolves, so too do the products you produce.

They have to evolve so that products Paizo makes remain both profitable and, as I have grown to see, you all take great pride and care to make sure that they are enjoyable for your customers.

From what I've seen of how Paizo has handled the transition from the magazines to Pathfinder. I'm confident that however Paizo approaches the change to 4th Ed. They will take extremely great care to make sure that they do not displace their player base.

You guys and gals are awesome!

I'm with Paizo all the way. :)

Dark Archive Contributor

Zohar wrote:
I'm with Paizo all the way. :)

Huzzah! :D

The Exchange

Mike McArtor wrote:

I suspect our decision to go with fourth edition is going to depend greatly on what fourth edition looks like.

It's likely we'll switch, though.

Thank you for your honest answer. I am quite new to the RPG family and a little annoyed at having to put out the money for the new core books after only one year, for me, of the 3.5 books. As long as Paizo is able to produce the fine material that they have to date I won't care if it's "8.5e" as long as I get to play the game. Everyone around the table just has to agree on one set of rules, whichever they might be, then it's all about playing the game. Keep up all the great work Mike and we the Paizo faithful will stand behind whatever route you take.

John B.


After looking a bit more at the previews for the new system and stuff, and the plans for what the system will change, my initial shock and anger at the change has died down a bit and been replaced by somewhat reserved excitement.

I am glad that Paizo will probably be switching, however. I'll be with you guys with whatever decisions you make.


Tars Tarkas wrote:
Duncan Clyborne wrote:
My theory is that Paizo will stay 3.5 for awhile. Then after the DI takes off a bit, they will continue publishing the Pathfinder hardcopy product in 3.5, but sell a 4.0 digital product through WotC.

I think this is a good idea.

I (for one) would like to roll real dice, move actual NOT virtual miniatures on a game table, and have complete control of character generation and access to my characters. The D&D I want to continue playing is around a table with others with tangible objects, not manipulating icons using a keyboard or mouse over a network with "voice chat" or "text chat."

I know Wizards isn't listening, but I have confidence that Paizo is and will continue to listen.

4th edition doesnt REQUIRE computers..So Pathfinder can still be books and real paper and dice and use 4th edition rules without needing a laptop.

Id love Pathfinder to offer both versions to appeal to those who want whichever version..That would be the best scenario..But they would have to stat out each encounter twice and print 2 different versions of the books...Its kind of unlikely.

I'll still stick with my vote being 3.5. An adventure path/campaign world should'nt change editions mid-run.

Honestly since I dont plan on getting 4th edition I'll have to say goodby to Pathfinder if it converts. :(
Can I at least beg to have the 1st THREE adventure paths be 3.5 before I go? PLEASE???

Scarab Sages

Bugmage wrote:
Everyone around the table just has to agree on one set of rules, whichever they might be, then it's all about playing the game.

Truer words were never spoken.

Scarab Sages

Bugmage wrote:
Everyone around the table just has to agree on one set of rules, whichever they might be, then it's all about playing the game.

I'll toast to that!

*raises glass of Bailey's on the rocks*


Sebastian wrote:
But I can see your point. Other people shouldn't get something they would use if you don't like it.

Thats kind of unfair sarcasm...

No one should rant against something they dont like that other people do if doesnt effect them. They just shouldnt buy it and let those who do want it have fun. That just curtesy.

BUT...it is different when that something that other people would use cuts in on or eliminates what you like. Then you have the right to speak your mind.


I would be very surprised if Paizo didn't convert, while sticking to the OGL content. That said, I agree that it should be done "between paths" rather than in the middle of one.

It might be worth their while to look into dual-statting the Gamemastery stuff that comes out in the meantime, or possibly providing the "current set" of stats in the module and the "other edition" stats as a web enhancement, varying by when the different modules are published.

-The Gneech

Scarab Sages

Sorry to interrupt the thread, I have no comment about the topic at hand.

I do have a comment about this:

Jason Grubiak wrote:
Then you have the right to speak your mind.

The idea of someone on a messageboard telling other people on a messageboard when they do or do not have a right to speak their mind is, to me, absurd.

Once again, sorry to interrupt.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Mike McArtor wrote:

I suspect our decision to go with fourth edition is going to depend greatly on what fourth edition looks like.

It's likely we'll switch, though.

Well bugger, I, for one, hope you and goodman don't. *sigh* Well as long as I can code PC Gen Pathfinder stuff, I'll reverse engineer.

Dark Archive Contributor

John Robey wrote:
I would be very surprised if Paizo didn't convert, while sticking to the OGL content. That said, I agree that it should be done "between paths" rather than in the middle of one.

This I guarantee.* We will finish out the second Pathfinder Adventure Path in 3.5 and will not switch to fourth edition part-way through.

---

* As much as I can guarantee anything, of course. ;)

Liberty's Edge

Mike McArtor wrote:
John Robey wrote:
I would be very surprised if Paizo didn't convert, while sticking to the OGL content. That said, I agree that it should be done "between paths" rather than in the middle of one.

This I guarantee.* We will finish out the second Pathfinder Adventure Path in 3.5 and will not switch to fourth edition part-way through.

---

* As much as I can guarantee anything, of course. ;)

Though I expected as much, it's good to hear the reassurance. Switching mid-AP would seem like a foolish decision from just about every perspective.


Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

I support quality content, mechanics are way down on the list from there. If Paizo continues to produce quality content, I will buy regardless of mechanics.

With that said, my vote is for a shift to 4e when the time is right.

Best.

Dark Archive Contributor

Azzy wrote:
Switching mid-AP would seem like a foolish decision from just about every perspective.

We agree. :)

Elorebaen wrote:
If Paizo continues to produce quality content, I will buy regardless of mechanics.

We are going to continue our darnedest to put out ONLY quality content. We hope you like what you see in the forthcoming months. :)


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

As I already stated earlier.

Pathfinder AP #1 & #2 will be 3.5 format.

Pathfinder AP #3 I think should be 3.5 format with content to convert the adventures to 4.0 format included. Reasoning: Too soon after the release of 4.0 as many people will still be making the decision to change editions or are digesting the information.

Pathfinder AP #4 I think should be 4.0 format with content to convert back to 3.5 format. Reasoning: Too soon to jump ship on 3.5 as it is only six months after the 4.0 DMG is released and there will be late adopters or people who will wait awhile before taking the plunge.

Pathfinder AP #5. By this point, all bets are off because the gods only know what shape the market will be at this point and what edition will dominate among Paizo readers. At this point, the bloom may be off the rose for Pathfinder as adventure paths (okay guys, you can put the tar and feathers down) because it will be two years of Pathfinder and while the concept is exciting, does it have legs to keep going year after year before people want something else or a change.


FWIW, I would love to see Paizo do whatever it takes to continue being successful. If that means a switch to 4th edition, so be it.

Having said that, I've sunk too much money into 3.0 and 3.5 material to even think of switching. I don't play often enough to warrant spending the kind of money that it will eventually end up costing.

I subscribed to both Pathfinder and Gamemastery modules because I love the work the Paizo team does. I'll probably continue to subscribe to Pathfinder even after the switch happens. Gamemastery modules, probably not...unless....

How hard would it be to produce both of them in 4th edition format, with a download of any changes that would be needed to run in 3.5? Not so much the magic items and traps, just the NPCs. I would have no problem continuing my purchases if the conversion content were available for download.

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