To be fair, they are handy, as sometimes you do have to read through encounters a few times to really get what is going on to start and where everyone will be. I guess my main point is I'm not sure every encounter needs them, and that when you are already crunched for space, the extra set up maps take even more space.
They are designed to be run with barely a read through. Those who actually prepare are annoyed by the exterraneous crap. I will have to admit though sometimes I forget what the setup I had designed is. It sitting right there is a convenience when that happens.
I am hoping that we see a DM's screen and monster tokens but if push comes to shove, I could live without them. The one thing I want to see is an AP that doesn't leave the Prime Material plane. I have never seen a reason for doing that. Any chances?
--Ray.
I'd like to add in a request for more player maps, handouts, and other useful diagrams, art, and puzzles that support the various adventures. These always enhance the experience of running and playing the adventure. So now that you've got a bit more room in the Pathfinder format (as opposed to Dungeon), I'd really like to see you guys turn up the volume on this kind of thing.
My two-cents,
--Neil
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I would like for organisations to be handled more like R. Talsorian games' metacharacters (example is sci-fi but works with fantasy also) than WotC's affiliations.
I'd wish for Drow to be lost in the mass of other creatures and not have any major presence in the world.
May the Drow-lovers stick to the FR or to Xen'drik.
I want comics. Non-essential, I know, but well-loved. I want more Downer. I want more OotS (lots more). Heaven help me, keep The Portent, too.
I'd like to add in a request for more player maps, handouts, and other useful diagrams, art, and puzzles that support the various adventures.
--Neil
I concur wholeheartedly! Nothing engages my players more than clues they can pick up and puzzle over. (Too much time spent playing Call of Cthulhu, I guess.) Handouts of all kinds are just plain fun.
I'd like to add in a request for more player maps, handouts, and other useful diagrams, art, and puzzles that support the various adventures...Yes and no. I'd like to see these things, but I'd prefer them as a download or in the PDF, rather than tear-outs....As a subscriber, I guess I have that covered, with the free PDF version. Since the product won't be poly-bagged, all this stuff will have to be in the book, not an add-on.
I could accept it as a downloadable "extra"...or the "DVD-version" of the hardcopy Pathfinder in PDF form...with a couple of extra player handouts included. That would be okay with me, too. Primarily, I just wanted to encourage the staff to give us more of that kind of thing since they've got an entire book of material to focus their adventure paths on now. Whether it's in the PDF or part of the hardcopy version which we can photocopy, if need be...is fine with me.
--Neil
I want comics. Non-essential, I know, but well-loved. I want more Downer. I want more OotS (lots more). Heaven help me, keep The Portent, too.
I like the idea of more OotS. That's always been my favorite. Not as big a fan of Downer, et. al., though. But this request also sparked another idea...
If there was a way for Pathfinder to devote a handful of pages (say 2-4?) for a more "serious" comic that shows the iconics actually going through some part of the adventure itself, that might be neat. It would provide for even more artwork showcasing a particular encounter...or even to act as filler scenes for what happens to the iconics in between each adventure.
I don't know if there are any fans of the NBC show "Heroes" here or not, but something along the lines of their online graphic novels (which really amount to just a few pages of comic material) would be nice. In and of themselves, they aren't part of the televised scenes, but they help you learn more about the backstories involved with the characters.
Just something to consider,
--Neil
Creative Director
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If there was a way for Pathfinder to devote a handful of pages (say 2-4?) for a more "serious" comic that shows the iconics actually going through some part of the adventure itself, that might be neat. It would provide for even more artwork showcasing a particular encounter...or even to act as filler scenes for what happens to the iconics in between each adventure.
We could... but that'd probably cost so much that there'd be no art in the rest of the book.
Comics are Horror-Expensive to do.
~sighs~ I know that. One of my friends is a comic book artist and colorer. He tells me all about the joyful fun world of comic book creation.
My big interests are:
a. advertisment purchasing. what would it cost in dollars to get a full page ad color, in the moths of October and November?
b. I am a head case, er- PSIONICS PLAYER! I just want to know if psionics is given a fair shake in "Pathfinder". as a side note, I greatly enjoyed the savage tide series, one player role played his human "warblade" (*tome of battle: book of nine swords) as an alternative swashbuckler...
who occasionally screamed, " I am indio montigo, you have" insert the insult to him, "PREPARE TO DIE!"
Sounds like a crazy idea but: what if the battle dancer class (*Dragon compendium) could be tweaked to have "spining frenzy" alternative barbarian rage feature (unearthed arcana?) or to "Ki channel" hand to hand damage dice through melee weapons... or, become a new kind of "martial adept" (*tome of battle: book of nine swords) with stances and maneuvers.
see, "head case" does fit.
If there was a way for Pathfinder to devote a handful of pages (say 2-4?) for a more "serious" comic that shows the iconics actually going through some part of the adventure itself, that might be neat. It would provide for even more artwork showcasing a particular encounter...or even to act as filler scenes for what happens to the iconics in between each adventure.We could... but that'd probably cost so much that there'd be no art in the rest of the book.
Comics are Horror-Expensive to do.
hmm... so, who did you ask?
there are a whole lot of artists out there and I am sure that if you could get one a contract. a few pages to "hook" readers isn't a whole comic book and should be easier to do...
how about asking the good folks of "insert comic book company name here" to consider the option. could you imagine getting "joe mad"(*battle chasers) or pat lee, or cold fuzion studios, or dream works productions or antarctic press comics "fred perry", "dave hutchinson", "Rod espinoza"...
anybody ask them "UDON" folks?
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a. advertisment purchasing. what would it cost in dollars to get a full page ad color, in the moths of October and November?
There aren't going to be any out-of-house advertisements in Pathfinder.
b. I am a head case, er- PSIONICS PLAYER! I just want to know if psionics is given a fair shake in "Pathfinder".
Do you mean "Are there going to be psionics in Pathfinder?" If so, then I think you're going to be disappointed. I don't know for sure (since I don't actually work on the Pathfinder team, but I seem to recall James saying there'd be no psionic support there. That's not to say you can't add it in, of course, but don't expect to read about dorjes and psicrystals.
I'm still holding out hope, however, for us to run a 32-page adventure that features psionics. It's a long shot, of course, but I like to dream big. :D
Sounds like a crazy idea but: what if the battle dancer class (*Dragon compendium) could be tweaked to have "spining frenzy" alternative barbarian rage feature (unearthed arcana?) or to "Ki channel" hand to hand damage dice through melee weapons... or, become a new kind of "martial adept" (*tome of battle: book of nine swords) with stances and maneuvers.
All of those options sound plausible to me. :)
I am a head case, er- PSIONICS PLAYER! I just want to know if psionics is given a fair shake in "Pathfinder".********************************************************
Do you mean "Are there going to be psionics in Pathfinder?" If so, then I think you're going to be disappointed. I don't know for sure (since I don't actually work on the Pathfinder team, but I seem to recall James saying there'd be no psionic support there. That's not to say you can't add it in, of course, but don't expect to read about dorjes and psicrystals.I'm still holding out hope, however, for us to run a 32-page adventure that features psionics. It's a long shot, of course, but I like to dream big. :D
Sounds like a crazy idea but: what if the battle dancer class (*Dragon compendium) could be tweaked to have "spining frenzy" alternative barbarian rage feature (unearthed arcana?) or to "Ki channel" hand to hand damage dice through melee weapons... or, become a new kind of "martial adept" (*tome of battle: book of nine swords) with stances and maneuvers.All of those options sound plausible to me. :)
I also look forward to it. When they do open up the submitions for path finder I will happly toss in a psionic adventure series for free- my big bonus would be getting published in pathfinder!
plus an article on the "variant Battle dancers"...
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plus an article on the "variant Battle dancers"...
Let me explain. No, there is no time to explain. Let me sum up.
When I said those sound plausible, I meant they sounded like good, balanced ideas you could include in your campaign with no problem. We cannot run variant battle dancer rules in Pathfinder or anywhere else (well, we probably could in [i]Dragon Compendium, Volume II[i/], but we won't).
I want to see old school orcs, the ones with pig like faces. That and hairy fat Halfings.
ok. Feel better. Just went off on a rant about how much monsters have changed.
I want to see old school orcs, the ones with pig like faces. That and hairy fat Halfings.
ok. Feel better. Just went off on a rant about how much monsters have changed.
I'd have to say for hte better in both of those cases. :)
I actually like that Orcs are more vicious and brutal looking. The pig faced thing bugged me, and began to be more an more of a dismissive stereotype for them. Orcs were a walking pig joke. I know the arguement may be that they can be a walking joke, but if orcs were completely incompetant, then they would be extinct . . . heck, for years orcs were the only non-human race that had a full pantheon instead of one patron god!
So grey skinned scarry looking orcs are the ones I'd vote for. I just think that there needs to be more to make them actually seem dangerous. Throw in some ancient cities that were destroyed by orcs, and give them a cool origin story, and give them some cool tribal quirks that don't make them a walking joke. The fact that they are chaotic and war like is more or less enough to explain why they don't have their own empire, but the fact that they CAN be dangerous should explain why lots of "wilderness" is orc territory.
Ironically, orcs in D&D got more "Tolkienish" while halflings got less so. I don't like the halfling "gypsy" thing they tried to do in Races of the Wild. Just because a race is good at being roguish doesn't mean the whole society should be based around this (and if I never see the name Dallah Thaun printed again I'll be thrilled). I like halflings as "creature comfort" non adventurous types, as it kind of makes adventurer halflings automatically notable.
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I'd have to say for hte better in both of those cases. :)
Agreed. I hated halflings before 3rd edition. Hobbits are great! In Middle Earth, not D&D. I dig the nomadic, gypsy thing--it makes them much more interesting. As for orcs, I never described orcs in games I ran as having pig snouts--I thought that was lame even when I was 12. :)
I think the races/monsters that need the Paizo treatment the most are gnomes (they're bulbous-nosed and boring) and elves (well, Paizo just needs to show what I've always known--that elves aren't patchouli-smelling, dolphins-and-crystals-new-agey, vegan, tree-hugging hippies that prance and sing through the woods with their fair, forest friends. Bleh!
Edit: And I hate emo/goth elves, too!)
I remember in the old unearthed arcana where they talk about the world being divided by the races and when they asked Grimish where his people will live he said they shall live everywhere by making war on the other races. That is the type of orcs I like the whole race that is at war with everything.
I think I just read the hobbit too much and love the hair on there tiny feet, with there fat little bellies.
I also think Gnomes with big bulbous noses that tinker and stuff are not that cool. I liked the trickster side of them.
Elves I always saw as a more of a sad race, than unshaved hippies. I never liked hippies. They smell.
I would like to see more mindflayers, I love mindflayers and dobbelgangers.
As for orcs, I like them as big mean green brutes. I like GWs twist with different types of orcs as black orcs, orcs and savage orcs.
Make the different creatures of the world adapt to their suroundings
I'm rather saddened that there will be no psionics in Pathfinder. Is that across any and all future APs, or just the current one? I'm a huge fan of psionics, but there's never been a high-quality adventure series or campaign that really explored them. Only the pile o' poo that is Eberron.
I had hoped that Paizo would lend their considerable talent toward bringing psionics into the foreground and back from obscurity. Is there a lack of market interest in the subject matter? Or am I really just alone in the desert on this one?
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Creative Director
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Psionics are part of the SRD, so if we wanted to, we certainly COULD do a psionic-heavy adventure path. If we do... it won't be one of the first few adventures; give Pathfinder time to find its feet before we start going into realms like psionic advetnrues and epic adventures and evil adventures. The basic fact is that psionics are simply not as popular as the standard, classic swords & sorcery style fantasy—thus, a psionic heavy adventrue would estrange a significant portion (my gut tells me 75% to 80%) of our audience. Not a smart move when you're trying to start something like Pathfinder out.
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Psionics are part of the SRD, so if we wanted to, we certainly COULD do a psionic-heavy adventure path. If we do... it won't be one of the first few adventures; give Pathfinder time to find its feet before we start going into realms like psionic advetnrues and epic adventures and evil adventures. The basic fact is that psionics are simply not as popular as the standard, classic swords & sorcery style fantasy—thus, a psionic heavy adventrue would estrange a significant portion (my gut tells me 75% to 80%) of our audience. Not a smart move when you're trying to start something like Pathfinder out.
Building off that, it's far more likely we'll test the waters with psionic GameMastery Modules first. A module is a far lesser risk than an entire Adventure Path. :)
Ears tingling... foot tappping... are those angels singing? This could only mean that someone hinted at the possiblity of maybe considering a PSIONICS adventure! Yay! :)
I wish there were a Pathfinder-DM screen and character sheets!
I agree with the DM screen. WAR needs to do a kickass piece of art for it. Character sheets aren't a must for me, but they'd be cool.
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My tuppence:
1) GM Screen gets my vote. I'd even pay for it as a separate item if it had copious WAR art, and I'm not afraid to say it. Most of the rest of us would too.
2) Gnomes. I utterly loathe the little buggers, and have since 2nd ED. But here's the thing: I don't WANT to hate them. I want them to be cool, and a race my players wont make fun of constantly. I'd really like Paizo/Pathfinder to do something to make them cool, and NOT comic relief. That would be great.
3) Designer notes/sidebars. The comparison to Red Hand of Doom keeps getting made. One of the things I love about this adventure (I bought two just so I could have JJ's autograph...) is the glimpses into the designer's heads as to why things are the way they are, hints on the INTENT behind the design. As a long-time GM, this is utterly invaluable, because even with lots of experience, it's impossible to catch every implication of every situation. A little help goes a long way.
I'm sure there's more, but thats what comes to mind immediately.
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2) Gnomes. I utterly loathe the little buggers, and have since 2nd ED. But here's the thing: I don't WANT to hate them. I want them to be cool, and a race my players wont make fun of constantly. I'd really like Paizo/Pathfinder to do something to make them cool, and NOT comic relief. That would be great.
Awww, but comic relief is what gnomes are all about. :\ That, and homicidal outbursts. And pigtails (for the females, any way). ;)
3) Designer notes/sidebars. The comparison to Red Hand of Doom keeps getting made. One of the things I love about this adventure (I bought two just so I could have JJ's autograph...) is the glimpses into the designer's heads as to why things are the way they are, hints on the INTENT behind the design. As a long-time GM, this is utterly invaluable, because even with lots of experience, it's impossible to catch every implication of every situation. A little help goes a long way.
I know we're doing that for the GameMastery Modules. I'm interested to know if Pathfinder is going to do that as well, since I'm including such sidebars in the article I'm writing for them. ;D
By the way, is there an "Anti-Wishlist" for Pathfinder anywhere? Things that I very much hope don't get rolled into the new campaign world:
1. A magic-style industrial revolution (a la Eberron).
2. Spelljamming ships.
3. Ninjas! (Okay, that one was just a joke since I know a few of the designers groove on the Asian culture influx. Some OA-style stuff would be okay, just don't overdo it.)
4. Psionics. (Actually, I'm just kidding a little bit here, too. Some psionics would be okay. I'd just prefer them in a limited fashion. Nothing too widespread. And no "psionic" nation-building, preferrably.)
Any thoughts, guys?
--Neil
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Things that I very much hope don't get rolled into the new campaign world:
3. Ninjas! (Okay, that one was just a joke since I know a few of the designers groove on the Asian culture influx. Some OA-style stuff would be okay, just don't overdo it.)
Grrr... >:(
Where's that "Ban" button?
...
(Kidding. I don't have access to a Ban button, which is probably a good thing.)
I wish for breaks from the darkness, horror, grotesqueries, and violence. Don’t get me wrong. I love the darkness, horror, grotesqueries, and violence that fill most of my adventures! Nonetheless, in Dungeon’s AP’s, I’ve come to miss that rich sense of wonder found in most of fantasy literature I love. The Age of Worms was so dark and dismal that the atmosphere itself made my players weary. STAP is lighter, to be sure, but is plunging down ever deeper into the grim. Our tour through the Abyss doesn’t promise much relief.
I wish the Pathfinder adventures would recapture the thrill of exploring regions of natural splendor or planes of wonder. I want an adventure to find Shangri La, or that leads the PCs up out of the mines and into Lothlorien. Give us something breathtaking to fight for, even if it’s only (or perhaps especially if it’s only) a place!
Now let me contradict myself.
When the Pathfinder adventure paths take the PCs to places like Hell or the Abyss, don’t create an atmosphere that feels even remotely terrestrial. I’m loving “Into the Maw”, with one caveat. The Abyss doesn’t feel that different than the material plane. I remember how startled, fascinated, and horrified I was when, as a teenager, my PC made it to the Demonweb Pits and found the webscape itself fabricated out of souls in torment. In contrast, the landscape of Divided’s Ire feels like any dungeon back on the material plane, albeit populated by demons rather than non-outsiders.
Where’s the otherworldly feel? Where are the areas of reverse or no gravity? The castles of blood? The storms that rain tormented souls? The iron land of hooked chains and cages that hang up into the air from the ground? Why doesn’t the Abyssal Sea have sections where one sails across clouds, or fire, or blood, or bodies of skinned petitioners, rather than simple ocean?
When we find the path to infernal realms in Pathfinder adventures, let them lead us to places beyond the mundane. Let them lead us to places beyond our comprehension.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up earlier, and I'm too lazy to check ;P
Would it be possible to split the PDF version of each Pathfinder volume into a player version and a DM version? That way it's easier for us DMs to distribute the player information.
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Hello everyone at Paizo,
I just read the current issue of Dungeon and wondered which part of it I wouldn't want to miss at all. Then there are some more musings of mine:
- the "interactive parts" directly addressed at us, the readers, I'd don't want to miss:
a) Editorials with your very individual points of view at our hobby
=> PF will be a book. Even books sport some kind of introduction. And an introduction usually provides a very personal (the editors') view on what is awaiting the reader of the following pages. Will editorials make the transition?b) reader letters (and your answers)
I know that reader letters are old fashioned by now (I am writing to a message board right now!).But first a significant amount of current Dungeon and Dragon readers don't seem to use the messageboards and yet feel emotionally connected to the magazines. Even I (as a message board reader) would like to find "personal" information in PF. After all it is supposed to be not another adventure book but Paizo's unique approach to the subject. And so far people seem to be that loyal to you for the one reason: You hear to your readers and communicate directly to them. Dispensing with this direct communication in PF books would be a step back from what you already achieved with your magazines.
Oh, as a second thought: I can imagine a clarification and FAQ section in "back matter". Possible content: Giving advice on how to deal with questions not covered yet by the (by then) published AP adventures or GameMastery Modules, offering additional material requested by readers, similar to what you do here in the message boards, too.
c) Dungeoncraft!
As I understand your postings, "back matter" is supposed to contain adventure specific back up material whereas Dungeoncraft provides general DM'ing advice from some of the most experienced industry's designers and DMs.Actually this is the section in DM I turn to immediately in each issue, even before reading the adventures. This should say enough about my favourites in Dungeon (apart from adventures). To me this section is the heart of DM advice/ help in each Dungeon issue, even though it is well "hidden" in the last part of each issue.
I can imagine this section in similar form in PF, too.
Take e.g. Wolfgang Baur's excellent tips on DMing planar adventures. Why not giving tips on how to DM city adventures when a PF adventure is set in a city, or how to start a campaign (at the start of an AP)...
Most of what is Dungeoncraft today, fits well into a PF DMing tips section.
You mentioned that AP will provide tips on building and maintaining castles etc. But to me this is rule advice, *not* DM advice. There isn't any other publisher in the industry offering DMing advice apart from you. It would be a serious loss if you'd dispense with this part of the Dungeon heritage. - Percentage of "front" and "back matter":
A closer look at recent APs shows, that increasing CRs mean increased adventure extent. Will "back matter" suffer from the same phenomenon? Will "back matter" shrink with each issue until issue 6 of each adventurer path?Or will the adventures address ever smaller ranges of character level in order to result in a pretty constant adventure page count percentage in each issue? (e.g. adventure #1 = level 1 - 4 ... adventure #6 = level 10 - 11)
Summing up, I would AP like to adhere to reader communication the way Dungeon and Dragon do.
And I would like "back matter" to be more than just setting information and more rules and critters. Please keep DMs like me in mind who learned their DMing skills mostly from Dragon and more recently from Dungeon and wouldn't want to miss advice in the new publication.
Thanks for your effort!
Greetings,
Günther
I think the races/monsters that need the Paizo treatment the most are gnomes (they're bulbous-nosed and boring) and elves (well, Paizo just needs to show what I've always known--that elves aren't patchouli-smelling, dolphins-and-crystals-new-agey, vegan, tree-hugging hippies that prance and sing through the woods with their fair, forest friends. Bleh!
I know it's against the SRD, but any chance of giving elves the Fey subtype and maybe some cool abilties and a LA? That would placate the Tolkien fanboys and the hippy-elf-haters. Gnomes might be statted as non-PC fey as well...
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I think the races/monsters that need the Paizo treatment the most are gnomes (they're bulbous-nosed and boring) and elves (well, Paizo just needs to show what I've always known--that elves aren't patchouli-smelling, dolphins-and-crystals-new-agey, vegan, tree-hugging hippies that prance and sing through the woods with their fair, forest friends. Bleh!I know it's against the SRD, but any chance of giving elves the Fey subtype and maybe some cool abilties and a LA? That would placate the Tolkien fanboys and the hippy-elf-haters. Gnomes might be statted as non-PC fey as well...
I doubt it. Paizo has said the stuff contained in the SRD likely wont change crunch-wise. Fluff-wise is another matter entirely. Look at the goblins, for example...
Here's an idea I had as I was reading the post I'm responding to. What if the elves were a race of exiled fae? Stats perfectly SRD. But what if sometime in the distant past the elves actually WERE fae, had their home in the realm of Faerie (would need a plane of their own or something), but did something so terrible that the entire species were cast out? Erik Mona has been recorded as saying he likes his elves with a sense of tragedy, and this would certainly fit it. Race-wide banishment and a sense that this mortal realm is NOT your home, NOT where you should be. Anger at watching yourself age, no matter how slowly. And maybe they don't even remember why. Its been so long nobody can recall the original offense, and the fae have a shoot-on-sight order for most elves; they sure ain't talking. Ironically, the fae in this Varisia could hate the elves as much as the elves of "vanilla" D&D hate the drow. Exiles, refugees and wanderers... THAT would be a fresh take on the elves, in my opinion.
Then you can take it to the next level: what is the elves believe they can't get into their equivalent of Heaven? That when they were cast down their ties to the afterlife were severed. You live for 800 years striving to get in as much as you can because once you're gone, that's is; your soul dies or becomes undead. Would also give a uniqe flavor to elves who actually decide to become clerics of the gods of the "mortal races". That's tragedy Mr. Mona might like.
And then one more step: what if only part of the elven race was banished? Somewhere in the realm of Faerie there is a VERY angry sect of "True" elves who would just love to wipe out the "false" mortal vermin. There you get your LA elves, suped up and with a GREAT motivation to be a personal nemesis for an elven PC or a campaign villain who doesn't care what his plan to wipe out the false elves will do to the Prime Material... he doesn't live there after all!!
Just an idea I had for a quick "re-imagining" of the elves as I read the above post.
Edit cuz I kin speel.
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Something I'd like to see in, or at least about Pathfinder is a 'making of'.
One of the books I picked up recently was 'Dungeon Master for Dummies' and it's actually been quite useful (something I recommend for new AND old DM's). One of the features is setting up and laying out a starting town - including looking into the history and how it interrelates with the adventures around it.
I'd like to see that sort of information from the Paizo crew about how they build, say... Varisia. Or even the starting and nearby towns. Why is something included, reasons for things being the way they are, and a look at the thought processes involved. This would be very much in the spirit of Monte Cook's articles in Dungeon and would provide very useful insight into what can be a difficult process for some of us.
At the same time, I don't really expect to see something like this in Pathfinder itself. While the Paizo Blog is certainly giving us glimpses at this sort of stuff, it'd be nice to see a full article sized writeup at some point, either via a PDF I could pay for, or a subcription thingy.
Here's an idea I had as I was reading the post I'm responding to. What if the elves were a race of exiled fae?
Funny that you mention it; that's more or less where my elf-o-centric homebrew campaign has been headed! But I think they dream of a reconciliation... not by returning to Faerieland or wherever, but by attempting to actually turn their own mortal lands into an extention thereof (which will doubtless not amuse the local populace...).
Ah, just make the elves into a hyper-aggressive samurai-based race. That's what I did and my players like it. They've don't quite know it yet, but an old race of samurai elves that were thought to have disappeared are the ultimate bad guys for the campaign I'm running. The party has only run into a few "descendants" so far, but there is more to come...
Ah, just make the elves into a hyper-aggressive samurai-based race. That's what I did and my players like it. They've don't quite know it yet, but an old race of samurai elves that were thought to have disappeared are the ultimate bad guys for the campaign I'm running. The party has only run into a few "descendants" so far, but there is more to come...
Heh, I, too, have Elven samurai in my homebrew campaign. Lovin' it.
