so i'm looking at the blog and that wayne reynolds picture comes up of the goblins, all fang and red eyes and burning the houses with glee and i just can't wait until the first book comes out so i can use these evil nasty looking things! (whew!) if this is the state of things in the pathfinder adventures, you've got a subscriber here. can't wait until the look for the trolls and ogres and giants comes out. i can't begin to imagine what these will look like with Wayne at the helm. great work, and kudos for getting him to do the artowrk. maybe now you can get lockwood on the art staff. huh? please? hmm?
by the way, who is doing the cartography for the pathfinder series? christopher west perhaps? please? pretty please with goblins on top?
Psst....Minis. Give me a six pack of goblin minis.
I think they're great.
In fact, I'm so impressed to see monster information released with a little cultural information that I just wet my pants with glee.
Yah, they're cartoonish, but it's not like this game is realistic, and we want to have fun, not sit around glower and slay.
Ok, I'm gonna go put a towel under my ass and keep reading.
CEO
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Speaking of the new goblins...How long before we can get our hands on goblin minis? Perhaps a Complete Encounter with a typical goblin warren or some such thing?
Hey Locke:
So, I have a question for you regarding Pathfinder minis. Would you (and anybody else can chime in too) be interested in minis if they were the traditional metal, unpainted sort? I can get that kind of mini done MUCH faster than trying to go the prepainted plastic route.
And on the topic of prepainted plastic, I wouldn't rule them out, but if we can find a cost effective way to do them, it could take six months or more to get them done. And frankly, we don't have a clue on how to get them done, so there is a certain amount of research we will have to do to figure out how to do them economically.
So no promises on prepainted plastic, but if there is enough interest in the unpainted metal minis, I think we can get those done rather quickly.
Thoughts?
-Lisa
I actually prefer unpainted metal, as long as they are reasonably priced (I know that can be difficult to pull off however).
i would so buy them. lots of them. i like the gritty, cartoonish look. i've always loved Wayne's artwork, and its a different take on the typical greenskin goblinoid model that has been used thousands of times before. more fairy tale-ish.
for the longest time i've been using the GW night goblins as the ones in my campaign. i haven't used orcs for a while because of the whole LOTR thing but if this is the general direction for humanoids, i can't wait. the orcs in my games are always feral, evil and monstrous, wicked grey skinned chaotic evil creatures (as they should be). if this is the general shape of things to come in pathfinder, then you have a fan for life.
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So, I have a question for you regarding Pathfinder minis. Would you (and anybody else can chime in too) be interested in minis if they were the traditional metal, unpainted sort? I can get that kind of mini done MUCH faster than trying to go the prepainted plastic route.
I, personally, prefer unpainted plastic minis. However, I'd take metal if plastic isn't an option. I like to paint minis, so the prepainted thing bores me.
One thing I will not buy is blind-packaged minis--I do not own any of WotC minis for that very reason (and every time I participate in one of their surveys I make sure to tell them this--even if they don't listen). I don't like putting my money down on something and not knowing whether I'm going to get what I want or be absolutely disappointed.
Oh, and thank you for taking time out to ask your customers what we think. :)
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I, personally, prefer unpainted plastic minis. However, I'd take metal if plastic isn't an option. I like to paint minis, so the prepainted thing bores me.One thing I will not buy is blind-packaged minis--I do not own any of WotC minis for that very reason. (shortened for length)
Here here. I have tons of metal minis that I've given a quick decent paintjob - heck, a lot of the paint jobs on the WotC minis are what I consider 'sub-par'. Good enough for quick'n'dirty, but still kinda meh.
I would buy painted plastic or even unpainted, but only if I could buy something specific. I don't want to be stuck with the luck of the draw when I'm buying something like this - I want to pick what I need and intend to use. Random's fine for CCG's. Not minis or dice.
Speaking of the new goblins...How long before we can get our hands on goblin minis? Perhaps a Complete Encounter with a typical goblin warren or some such thing?And on the topic of prepainted plastic, I wouldn't rule them out, but if we can find a cost effective way to do them, it could take six months or more to get them done. And frankly, we don't have a clue on how to get them done, so there is a certain amount of research we will have to do to figure out how to do them economically.
So no promises on prepainted plastic, but if there is enough interest in the unpainted metal minis, I think we can get those done rather quickly.
Thoughts?
-Lisa
Personally, I'd take metal figures, because the paint jobs on my D&D minis are absolutely CRAP, I say this as a guy who has painted all of the figures in my gaming groups since 1985, played Warhammer, come from a family of artists, yadda yadda.
On the other hand, I live in China and see foreigners open businesses like this regularly, and am tantalized (cuz I play) by the low cost of getting this stuff painted here. If I had the capital I would probably start selling pre-painted metal figures on the net.
Over here you need to keep looking over the worker's shoulders or they'll start doing crap like D&D is shoveling out the warehouse doors, and that's no small task. Then, keeping people accountable here is like catching greased goblins.
I would say unpainted metal for now, unless you can find an Asian supplier who is ready to paint, willing to do it with pride, and who isn't bound by a restrictive contract that WotC has no doubt made with their suppliers....
And then the more you sell ... you know the rest.
Good luck!
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Yes, I would be extremely interrested in buying some pathfinder specific minis such as the goblins. I won't buy the generic looking dude just 'cause he's called Merick the pathfinder rogue.
I have a preference for pre-painted plastic because I don't have the time required to paint tons of minis anymore, and you don't have to be as careful with plastic.
I like the fact that d&d minis is collectable. Lot's of monsters that would never have been made into a mini have seen the light of day. You're never sure what your going to get but at least you got a chance of getting it.
I would also be up for buying minis either metal or plastic
I don't own many minis because they are priced to high for stuff that looks so crappy--I even go as far as buying the little plastic toys they sell to promote whatever new movie or tv show is popular down at the local dolar store (King Kong makes good giants; dinosaurs=dragons&tarrasque) and some of those are done better than the WotC minis I have. I would support any minis Paizo puts out so long as they're not done badly. As for painting them--I don't have the time myself, but I'd buy unpainted minis and use them that way if I liked them; unpainted is always better than a sucky mass-produced paint job.
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Over the past couple of years, I have litteraly spent THOUSANDS of dollars on pre-painted minis. I do have a job where I make a lot of money, and don't have kids, so I freqeuntly have a bit of free cash. I have full sets of every D&D mini so far, and, of course, hundreds of doubles.
The main reason for this is because I don't have very much time to paint minis, and I'm not much of an artist anyway. I like the plastic minis quite a bit more, because they are durable and I can just throw the ones I want into a box and take them to the game. However, I wouldn't mind metal ones, either. The only problem that I have is finding the time to paint minis, so I never buy unpainted minis.
Also, I have had quite enough with wotc's shenanigans. If someone else out there were to start producing pre-painted minis, I wouldn't have to buy them from wotc any more...
On the minis being random--I don't have much of an opinion either way. I can tell you, however, that I probably bought a lot more of them because they are random, and I was trying to get complete sets. I also like opening lots of packs and having multiple duergar, ogres, etc. I don't like the collectible aspect making some minis that I don't really care about cost $10 or more each. I really dislike warforged, and I don't like finding them in my mini boxes. I feel like they are a waste of space.
Anyhoo, my 2 silvers.
I strongly prefer pre painted minis, and preferably plastic. I would feel this way even if it meant a delay as the details are worked out. My group and I buy about 2 cases (24 packs) of each new mini set that comes out and the 'bang for the buck' can't be denied when purchasing in those quantities.
I also am the sort that likes to throw them in a box and take them to the game. My wife and I have about 1500-2000 minis at this point with no end in sight. Though the space to put them is...constrained at best. Then you add in dwarven forge, dungeon tiles, gamemastery map packs, flip maps, other maps. Sheesh. This has more than a little taken over our life it seems. :)
Oh, and for what its worth we don't play the miniatures game nor are we truly collectors. These are all bought with the intention of playing D&D with them.
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unpainted is always better than a sucky mass-produced paint job.
I disagree. Painted is better, IMO, I'm tired of looking at grey minis. As for well or badly painted, you can only tell when you hold them up. A crappy paint job looks fine when the mini is 3 or 4 feet away on the table surrounded by other minis.
So, I have a question for you regarding Pathfinder minis. Would you (and anybody else can chime in too) be interested in minis if they were the traditional metal, unpainted sort? I can get that kind of mini done MUCH faster than trying to go the prepainted plastic route.
So no promises on prepainted plastic, but if there is enough interest in the unpainted metal minis, I think we can get those done rather quickly.
I've got a lot of traditional goblins, orcs, etc. The Paizo goblins are uber-cool, but buying one for $5.99 wouldn't serve any useful purpose.
If it's goblins, there have to be a bunch of them. Give me six or eight in metal for $12 or $15, or even in unpainted plastic on a sprue (a la Heroquest or way-back Warhammer) for $8, and I'd be interested. I'm guessing that price wouldn't cut it, but any more than that, and I'd probably stick with my DDM minis.
Now, if/when you come up with a cool iconic big baddie for Pathfinder (a distinct monster, not, say, a Runelord of Greed who could be represented by one of many Reaper minis in existence), then you might have a good model for a new miniature.
It looks like we could use a poll here to sort this all out!
My overwhelming preference is for unpainted metal miniatures. PLEASE find great sculptors! The official D&D miniatures fail in large part because they lack both gesture and detail. Their artistic, physical design (not their paint job) is drab (wait, their paint is drab too, but that's not my point here). Each character or monster looks like a below-average, clumsy, generic member of its category. Blah. Give us miniatures so taut with expression and flooded with motion that we can't HELP but buy them! Something akin to the recent work in Reaper's lines, or Rackham's lines. Produce miniatures like that, and I'll buy every one.
I'll buy them as long as I can see them, of course. If you sell them like blind lottery tickets, in packages where we don't know what we're getting, I won't buy a single one. I'm a DM building adventures, not a Magic junkie.
Just my two coppers:
I think metal minis, painted or unpainted, would be better than plastic here. While plastic minis are generally more durable(transportable, anyway) and have more detail, I am familiar enough with the process of making them to know that Paizo would never be able to turn a profit on them.
Metal minis however, can be produced rapidly and (relatively) cheaply at the smaller production run sizes. I would recommend selling them unpainted, simply because that also means unassembled, and more thus likely to survive shipping. Pre-assembling metal minis is tougher, too, since metal sculpts rarely fit right out of the molds: they usually require some "green stuff" to fill in gaps. Nothing factory stooges can't do, but a production cost still.
Personally, I wouldn't order them (fair warning) just because I have found that minis only feel better at the table when they are ALWAYS used, which leads to even more pre-game prep time (and expense) to make sure to have the right minis. Which means off-map encounters are either run without minis or run with proxies, which leads to confusion and reduces the incentive for using minis in the first place. However, I know that there are plenty of people on this board who would want them, even if it's just to have Wayne's Goblin horde on their desk at work.
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I too have spent a thousand or more on pre-painted plastics minis from WotC. I amn not a collector, but I try to buy at least a case per set, keeping what I get and buying that odd "must-have" mini seperately. I would absolutely love it if Paizo started a prepainted plastic line that coincided with their Pathfinder series. As good as metal mini's are, I am simply too short on time to paint them and lack the skill to do them right. While WotC mini's are not always of the highest quality paint wise, a great number of them are more than good enough for my taste and the durability of plastic makes that much more desirable.
So, yes! Please investigate a plastic mini's line and see what it would take to have some made. I would gladly redirect my my mini's dollars to paizo if they produce a product comparable to WotC's.
Unpainted metal minis? Zero interest, I'm afraid. I view painting miniatures and playing D&D as two completely separate and unrelated hobbies---I have no talent in painting, neither the time nor patience to learn, and no workspace inside my apartment to be be used for painting.
Just thought I'd clear up something in my post above: I mean hard plastic minis, like Games Workshop plastics. Those are made with cut steel molds, which have ridiculous start-up costs and require specialized equipment, and so need bigger production runs that Paizo would have to sell to make a profit.
I have no idea how Wizards makes their minis, but judging from the level of detail I'd assume a 'soft-mold' type process. Quite likely less expensive, as it would have the start-up costs of metal but the production cost of plastic. However, Wizards has made a trade secret of the plastic mix they use, so I'm not sure if anyone can duplicate it.
MADE IN CHINA.
My two bits back in--since I've been here in China for a while and I've heard a few variations on this story:
Research might get you what you need, but what the Chinese do when they want to start something like this up (and I say this esp now that I reading stuff posted by people who know something about moulding) is go and hire some guys from their competitor's factory.
People don't make much, here, and all a guy needs is a promise of promotion and higher wages to leap wholeheartedly into a start-up.
Many secrets are lost like this--it is, as I'm sure you know, one of the great weaknesses of outsourcing (as in WotC making minis in China).
All you need are some agents... lol.
I have a hard time finding decent unpainted metal figs these days, so I'm stuck paying for the pre-painted random bits, which I don't find nearly as fun.
Also having access to a horde of goblin critters would be great since we're currently using the pieces from the LoTR Risk game for our easier encounter monsters. It get's confusing and isn't quite as much fun.
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Just thought I'd clear up something in my post above: I mean hard plastic minis, like Games Workshop plastics. Those are made with cut steel molds, which have ridiculous start-up costs and require specialized equipment, and so need bigger production runs that Paizo would have to sell to make a profit.
I have no idea how Wizards makes their minis, but judging from the level of detail I'd assume a 'soft-mold' type process. Quite likely less expensive, as it would have the start-up costs of metal but the production cost of plastic. However, Wizards has made a trade secret of the plastic mix they use, so I'm not sure if anyone can duplicate it.
Similar to the idea that I had earlier but I didn't know that the start-up was so high. How do they make model cars and such so inexpensive if they have a high startup cost?
Anyway, I also thought that you could use different color plastics for different types of critters.
light blue= small monsters
dark blue=medium monsters
light green= large monsters
npcs/pcs= tan
etc...
This way there is a certain amount of variation in the different types of creatures without having to have them all painted.
Just a thought.
FH
Many secrets are lost like this--it is, as I'm sure you know, one of the great weaknesses of outsourcing (as in WotC making minis in China).
All you need are some agents... lol.
Wizards has experience protecting that sort of thing: The foiling and even cardstock of Magic cards are also trade secrets. I'd imagine the workers at the minis factory just know that the plastic mix shows up in ingots on a truck, so even if they know proportions, they don't know what ingredient A is. The plastic probably comes from somewhere more secure. Not saying you couldn't bribe it out of them, but it'd require a lot more bribes.
Similar to the idea that I had earlier but I didn't know that the start-up was so high. How do they make model cars and such so inexpensive if they have a high startup cost?
I don't know about model cars specifically, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say that they're sold in very large numbers and the lack of fine details reduces the tooling cost somewhat.
so i'm looking at the blog and that wayne reynolds picture comes up of the goblins, all fang and red eyes and burning the houses with glee and i just can't wait until the first book comes out so i can use these evil nasty looking things!
Oh they're just the kobolds from Cheap Ass Games' Kobolds Ate My Baby RP with a hair cut. ;) Seperated at birth? You decide.
All Hail Triple-G!
If you produce metal unpainted minis I'll be buying all of them as soon as they'll be available (including costs of shipping to Europe) directly from your store so you can keep most profits.
I don't like pre-painted plastic minis at all. And only will be buying them if they are either very, very good or can be easily repainted and converted. Something that can be easily done with the current crop of D&D minis from Wizards of the Coast.
Loads of goblins and the iconics are a must! The hinted giants can be something of a problem, but as it is very difficult to get good giant minis, it could be nice to see some of them.
Wizards has experience protecting that sort of thing: The foiling and even cardstock of Magic cards are also trade secrets. I'd imagine the workers at the minis factory just know that the plastic mix shows up in ingots on a truck, so even if they know proportions, they don't know what ingredient A is. The plastic probably comes from somewhere more secure. Not saying you couldn't bribe it out of them, but it'd require a lot more bribes.Many secrets are lost like this--it is, as I'm sure you know, one of the great weaknesses of outsourcing (as in WotC making minis in China).
All you need are some agents... lol.
Yah, I'm sure that's totally true. When such secrets are stolen it is neither easily nor hastily done. Furthermore, contracts on work outsourced in China are very strict. The problem, of course, is enforcing them in the confines of the Chinese legal system.
Thus, it seems to me, if Paizo wanted to do something like this their best bet would be having WotC release a Pathfinder series of minis. Negotiating that would have to be, well, like sucking big stinky b**#r.
The problem for those of us who want the pre-painted minis is that there are not going to be enough of us playing. Star Wars and D&D minis are going out to an enormous market of several games.
Can Pathfinder capture enough of that market?
The problem for those of us who want the pre-painted minis is that there are not going to be enough of us playing. Star Wars and D&D minis are going out to an enormous market of several games.Can Pathfinder capture enough of that market?
I would say yes. Goblins and the cool foreground cover characters are easily adaptable to any setting. They are at least as easy as the more obscure D&D Minis - who is ever going to use the Golden Protector -a celestial half-gold dragon lammasu (especially now that the adventure I placed one in will probably never be seen)? Heck, how many people in all of D&D use warforged? Probably a mid-range double digit precentage, but still that leaves a lot of people using them as proxies for real constructs or knights.
If it looks cool people will use it.
GGG
Lisa, maybe you can partner with Reaper on doing some prepainted plastic minis. Reaper has just recently ventured into the prepainted plastic territory.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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So no promises on prepainted plastic, but if there is enough interest in the unpainted metal minis, I think we can get those done rather quickly.
-Lisa
Truth to tell I hadn't even expected prepainted. The prepainted would be cool and I'd buy them (I've bought a ton of the WotC minis). The prepainted minis reduce my work load for game prep but I'll paint my own and happily especially if they come sooner than later.
And seriously I think it would be cool to see a Complete Encounter set with the Goblins.
Add another for unpainted metal miniatures. I like the Reaper line a lot, and prefer to paint my own (not that I have much time for it anymore). I'd probably buy pre-painted plastic if they were good...but mainly if they weren't in uncontrollable sets where you can't choose what you get. That annoyed me about that other company's miniatures so I never bought any.
For me, I have no interest in buying unpainted metal minis anymore-- I run games, but I don't paint minis.
I would be all over pre-painted plastic versions, particularly if you sold them in themed packs (goblin raiding party), or in groups (10 skirmisher goblins, or 4 giants, etc.).
The collectable aspect of the D&D minis makes them suck, and ultimately reminds the P&P gamers that we're not on the priority list.
So, I have a question for you regarding Pathfinder minis. Would you (and anybody else can chime in too) be interested in minis if they were the traditional metal, unpainted sort? I can get that kind of mini done MUCH faster than trying to go the prepainted plastic route.
And on the topic of prepainted plastic, I wouldn't rule them out, but if we can find a cost effective way to do them, it could take six months or more to get them done. And frankly, we don't have a clue on how to get them done, so there is a certain amount of research we will have to do to figure out how to do them economically.
So no promises on prepainted plastic, but if there is enough interest in the unpainted metal minis, I think we can get those done rather quickly.
Thoughts?
-Lisa
Personally I love Metal Mins and painting them (for PC's and Big NPC's - Like Strad in my current game).
But I would have Loved prepainted plastic mins for an adventrue. Something that I could buy that would feature enough of any one type for that adventrue and to scale maps (all do to my lack of free time). I shelled out $35 dollars for the new Ravenloft adventrue (and Demon Web Pits) I would have been very willng to shell out another 20-30 for the maps and plastic mini (painted or otherwise)
As someone mentioned maybe you could team up with Reaper since they have announced that they are planning on doing painted (non random) blisters of Minis
unpainted is always better than a sucky mass-produced paint job.I disagree. Painted is better, IMO, I'm tired of looking at grey minis. As for well or badly painted, you can only tell when you hold them up. A crappy paint job looks fine when the mini is 3 or 4 feet away on the table surrounded by other minis.
I agree with Acev.
I don't have the time nor skill to paint minis, and I prefer to look at color minis on the table.With that said, if you think the quality of prepainted minis will be low, I'd say stick to what you do best. Don't be releasing crappy minis just to have some.
Maybe, even if you really want to release prepainted minis, if you think unpainted will be of much higher quality and you'll make a profit, go for it. I doubt people will be offended, I know I won't. I won't buy them, but I won't be offended.
A team up of Paizo and Reaper would be awesome. I think thier minis are very charcterful and getting better all the time.
Also, can someone please post a link to the gobbos? I'm going crazy trying to find the picture everyone's talking about...
I subscribed to Pathfinder for the goblins. They are that cool.
Of course, I really like what i'm hearing about the new campaign setting, and I look forward to what Paizo will do with the other classic fantasy monsters
So, I have a question for you regarding Pathfinder minis. Would you (and anybody else can chime in too) be interested in minis if they were the traditional metal, unpainted sort?
A pack or two of the new Pathfinder metal Goblins would be great, and I would love to paint them! And that picture of the Runelord Karzoug from James Jacobs' Pathfinder blog posted Sunday would also be fun to paint! Quality over quantity would be my choice for Pathfinder minis!
Hmm... concerning miniatures, these are an afterthought to me. To me, they would sell over to price tag. I would not care if they are metal, plastic; prepainted or not - if they are cheap enough, I would go for them.
Otherwise, I like these goblins - they somehow remind me of the adventure in one dungeon which featured kobolds reading poetry aloud as they assumed it to be some kind of magic spells - gret idea.
Stefan
Unpainted, preferably plastic, but I know that's not going to happen, so metal it is. I'm not an amazing artist, but I like to paint my own stuff, and the paintjobs on the D&D minis are a joke. The bigger monsters are ok to good, but the humanoid medium sized stuff is crap. Also, variety is very important, at least to me. The idea of using seven human bandits that are terribly painted and all in the same pose is slightly more appealing that just using coins, and by slightly I'm talking hair's width. With unpainted metal minis, like what Reaper sells, you can cut them up, convert them, and paint them how you want. All arround better in my opinion. I see some advantages to the rubbermade prepainted things Wizards sells (and I do own a good number) but I think it's the wrong answer for Pathfinder minis. One of the coolest things about Pathfinder that the fans have right now is the artwork. That's going to leave a very strong impression in a lot of peoples minds. So if you can get minis on the shelves that resemble that artwork you'll strike gold, and I just don't think you can do it with prepainted plastic. At least not affordably.
