This Sucks Balls


Dragon and Dungeon Transition Discussion


And you know it, Erik. Did you even bother to stand up and fight for the survival of these magazines, or did you roll over? Please share as I'm sure many would like to know how their favorite gaming mags just became some crap download.


Indeed much ball suckage was had by many.

Suck the fat one WOTC!!!!

A new ezine doesn't have to exclude Dungeon and Dragon magazine.
Quashing the competition in such a way makes me want to spit!


jokamachi wrote:
And you know it, Erik. Did you even bother to stand up and fight for the survival of these magazines, or did you roll over? Please share as I'm sure many would like to know how their favorite gaming mags just became some crap download.

In the "Stunned speechless" thread:

Eric Mona wrote:
Ikor wrote:
Were the magazines losing money?
Absolutely not. As far as I know, the sales of the magazines were not a factor in this decision. We're actually very pleased with the sales of the magazines, and in particular with our growing subscriber lists.

Why wouldn't he fight for a safe, profitable business?

Troll.


I agree. I am absolutely sure he did everything he could. This is WotC's colossal error, not Paizo's.


Freehold DM wrote:
I agree. I am absolutely sure he did everything he could. This is WotC's colossal error, not Paizo's.

Crime would be a more appropriate term...

"And the wicked shall inherit the earth."

The Exchange Kobold Press

Freehold DM wrote:
I agree. I am absolutely sure he did everything he could. This is WotC's colossal error, not Paizo's.

WotC holds the license for the magazines, and it was their decision to pull that license from Paizo. As Joshua Frost said in another thread, "We'd publish Dragon and Dungeon until the end of time if we could."

They're being very classy about the amicable separation, but don't kid yourself. The Paizo guys are launching Pathfinder because they really don't have a choice.


So be it. So do any of you apologists know when the last official publication of Dungeon will take place? Will the finale of Savage Tide appear in hard copy, or should I just burn what issues I have?

F***ing lame, this is.


These magazines got me through my need for D&D reading while overseas, and when I wasn't playing. This really hacks me off. Looks like I'll be trying out Paizo's new magazine, if it will hold at least d20 material, if not D&D.

GW

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Burn the issues you have. Then get an axe. It's the only way to be safe.

Liberty's Edge

jokamachi wrote:

So be it. So do any of you apologists know when the last official publication of Dungeon will take place? Will the finale of Savage Tide appear in hard copy, or should I just burn what issues I have?

F***ing lame, this is.

They are going to finish Savage Tide in mag form and that will be the last Dungeon


jokamachi wrote:

So be it. So do any of you apologists know when the last official publication of Dungeon will take place? Will the finale of Savage Tide appear in hard copy, or should I just burn what issues I have?

F***ing lame, this is.

As an apologist (for whom?), I say: Read the f***ing FAQ.

I know you're mad, but come on, at least try.


jokamachi wrote:

So be it. So do any of you apologists know when the last official publication of Dungeon will take place? Will the finale of Savage Tide appear in hard copy, or should I just burn what issues I have?

F***ing lame, this is.

I'm upset because WotC effectively cancelled one of my favorite products of all time, regardless of what happens on their website.

But your reaction is a tad extreme. Did somebody from Paizo shoot your dog right after today's announcement?

Sheesh.

Oh, and follow the easy links all over the website to the FAQ and all of your . . . practical . . . questions will be answered.


attributed to management earlier in this threadWere the magazines losing money?

Absolutely not. As far as I know, the sales of the magazines were not a factor in this decision. We're actually very pleased with the sales of the magazines, and in particular with our growing subscriber lists.

B.S. No one junks a magazine because its performance improves. Yes, the corporate folks are being classy about this and not selling each other up the river as the party at fault, but we're not children and deserve to be treated with respect for our dedication to this hobby. Many of us have been playing D&D and supporting these magazines for 30 years and to give us a saccharine-infused press release as a farewell is pathetic, wrong, and unprofessional. Best of luck - I'll buy my gaming gear elsewhere, as now the playing ground has been leveled so that Paizo is just like Goodman Games or anyone else making accessories, instead of providing a valuable service to the communty. I hope WotC stops getting spooked by World of Warcraft and trying to turn everything into web-content...


jokamachi wrote:

So be it. So do any of you apologists know when the last official publication of Dungeon will take place? Will the finale of Savage Tide appear in hard copy, or should I just burn what issues I have?

F***ing lame, this is.

Get f~$$ed


tylerthehobo wrote:

attributed to management earlier in this threadWere the magazines losing money?

Absolutely not. As far as I know, the sales of the magazines were not a factor in this decision. We're actually very pleased with the sales of the magazines, and in particular with our growing subscriber lists.

B.S. No one junks a magazine because its performance improves. Yes, the corporate folks are being classy about this and not selling each other up the river as the party at fault, but we're not children and deserve to be treated with respect for our dedication to this hobby. Many of us have been playing D&D and supporting these magazines for 30 years and to give us a saccharine-infused press release as a farewell is pathetic, wrong, and unprofessional. Best of luck - I'll buy my gaming gear elsewhere, as now the playing ground has been leveled so that Paizo is just like Goodman Games or anyone else making accessories, instead of providing a valuable service to the communty. I hope WotC stops getting spooked by World of Warcraft and trying to turn everything into web-content...

You too.


My first Dragon was #57. My first Dungeon was #11. Yeah, this sucks. But I'm aiming my ire towards the assclowns of the coast. I have every WotC product I need. Paizo and other 3rd party publishers will be getting 100% of my d20-related spending cash from now on.

Dark Archive

tylerthehobo wrote:

attributed to management earlier in this threadWere the magazines losing money?

Absolutely not. As far as I know, the sales of the magazines were not a factor in this decision. We're actually very pleased with the sales of the magazines, and in particular with our growing subscriber lists.

B.S. No one junks a magazine because its performance improves. Yes, the corporate folks are being classy about this and not selling each other up the river as the party at fault, but we're not children and deserve to be treated with respect for our dedication to this hobby. Many of us have been playing D&D and supporting these magazines for 30 years and to give us a saccharine-infused press release as a farewell is pathetic, wrong, and unprofessional. Best of luck - I'll buy my gaming gear elsewhere, as now the playing ground has been leveled so that Paizo is just like Goodman Games or anyone else making accessories, instead of providing a valuable service to the communty. I hope WotC stops getting spooked by World of Warcraft and trying to turn everything into web-content...

Paizo didn't 'junk' the magazines. From what we know, Wizards of the Coast decided to no longer permit Paizo to publish them. Their names, reputations and everything else belong to Wizards, not to Paizo - and I imagine that the license deal was such that it was actually Paizo which got to keep any profits (and which risked any losses). Wizards has its own strategy and it clearly doesn't include print magazines. Therefore, Paizo has to stop producing the magazines.

Paizo won't openly blame Wizards - they want to keep opportunities for collaboration in the future - but that's where any vitriol ought to be directed. I imagine Paizo wholeheartedly wanted to carry on producing the magazines, but it's not an option.


It could be that WotC cancelled their contract because people kept asking them about the Age of Worms Hardcover. It's not a good reason, but as long as they are being a*******, that is as likely as anything.

It looks like i've bought my last WotC product.


This pretty much sucks. Dungeon and Dragon were what brought me back to D&D. These magazines were how I kept in touch with what was new and interesting in D&D, and actually caused me to buy more WOTC products.

I will not buy online content. I need to have the books in my hands.

WOTC doesn't even produce high quality adventures anymore. Why the hell did they care?

Liberty's Edge Contributor

You know I've been pissed about this for several hours now,
and unsure about what to post.

While Dragon has been a product I've thoroughly enjoyed for the past 25 years, since Erik and crew took over the magazine has done an unbelieveble job of keeping D&D exciting and relevant. More so than many of the previous staffs, this crew seemed hell-bent on making Paizo and the magazines work as strong independent company, not as some stepping stone for a position at WotC. They reveled in their gamerness, pushed gamers out of their basements dared people to flaunt that they were gamers.

They relentlessly raised the bar for every aspect of gaming, from fluff to crunch. They acted as the proving ground for ideas the bigger companies were too scared to publish, or even to mention. They published adventures that were artistically written, and pushed the envelope on roleplaying, intrigue, problem-solving, and hack-n-slash. They dug up old memories from our collective gaming childhoods and made them shine. They made players who'd forgotten how much they loved a game come back to it and enjoy it all over again.

I'm crushed that Wizards (or Hasbro) believed that none of these things mattered enough to allow a very capable team something as simple as a license, so they could continue doing a great job providing Dungeons & Dragons with its heart. I'm crushed that they though so little of the fans of these great magazines. Pretty much everyone in this industry got their start in Dragon (or Dungeon). I have made very good friends based on mutual love of these magazines. These magazines built the game in to the monster it is.

As crushed as I am concerning what I a consider a callous and corporate stab at a loyal and deserving fan base.

I have complete faith that the Paizo staff will use any means necessary to continue pushing fantasy role-playing gaming to its limits.

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I just can't resist yelling... A$$pirates of the Ocean suck!!!


I agree with the title of the thread, but not the content of the OP. I guess this is what happens when you are playing with somebody elses marbles. Eventually they take them back.

These two great outlets for fanbase authors will be sorely missed. Two beautiful and extremly useful mags going away.


Damn WotC! This has really pissed me off. I don't blame Paizo of course, not at all.

As for WotC, I'll still buy products, but when they eventually switch to 4th Edition, they can kiss my a$$. I'm sticking with 3.5, period!


Okay, KnightErrantJR emailed me, I'm in shock. I've said my thanks to the Paizo Crew in the appropriate thread. NOW, I rant (then I drink).

Wizard$ of the Coa$t needs to realize that the magazines hold a special place in gaming. They ARE by GAMERS for GAMERS. I'm absolutely certain that Erik fought for the magazines to be kept.

Wizard$ does not realize that it will hurt those of us who are already on the fencepost on whether or not to purchase their products (I've been that way for a little over a year now). This removal of license that they've been doing ALL the past YEAR or so makes absolutely NO SENSE whatsoever. Ravenloft: it's covered by the people who know dark fiction & horror best. The magazines were both profitable and built a strong community of good people. On top of it, the magazines were the ONLY part of D&D that remained after the first edition. The magazines support D&D and the gamers support the magazines... Profit? Yes.

As to the "online content" that wizards has been producing... I've not been impressed yet, and they will have to do a hell of a lot to convince me that their work is up to snuff with Paizo's work.

I'll be working on my Pathfinder subscription after I have a lot of whiskey. A LOT of whiskey. Mental bleach is a good thing right now.

/d


I'm glad that Paizo has been as nice as they have been about this whole issue. I'm very impressed by your professionalism.

Granted, I won't lie and say that I've been a fan of Erik. I disagreed with many of his discissions. However, I respected him because he stood by those discissions no matter what anyone said. Thank you Erik (and staff), you gained points in my "cool book".

Also, it needs to be mentioned.

I don't pay for porn online, what makes Wizard's think I'll pay for their online content? Seriously!

Comparing the track records of the quality of both companies, I'm sticking with Paizo.


Pathfinder Companion, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

SO, I have played Dungeons and Dragons for *30 years* of my life. Through it all, at least I had Dragon magazine as a constant. Despite the Gygax divorce, through the change from 1st to 2nd to 3rd to 3.5, through the basically complete lack of any module support for 5 years, Dragon was at least a constant. More recently (for a decade or so) so was Dungeon. And now a decision is made to go to the web?

Not everyone goes to the web for content. I *like* having tangible product on my shelves. I have recently run my 10-year old son through "Temple of Poseidon" because we ran across it in my collection as we were organizing. Could that happen with digital download? No.

I have been loyal to D&D through every trial and tribulation. I have spent literally tens of thousands on product. I own every printing of things clear back to "Palace of the Vampire Queen". By making this a web download, Wotc is both ruining any collectible value for folks like myself, and they are destroying the possibility of the generational carryover of the product line. This is a short sighted tactical decision rather than a long term strategic direction.

I have gone through Chill, Earthdawn, Shadowrun, Paranoia, et, etc, etc. but have *ALWAYS* retained a focus on D&D, both for playing and collecting. To me, this decision is an abandonment of support for AD&D that started with the drastic module reduction and now terminates in this. A word of advice: The d20 system as an "operating system" model does not make you the "WIndows" of the gaming world. Other systems have already begun a re-emergence. By terminating valuable marketing capital that took decades to build, you will just drive another nail into the RPG coffin.

I am very sad that my son will not have D&D to play at my age unless he borrows material from my collection because the publishers did not think long-term.


Many people have said that this decision is akin to someone shooting your dog. While that analogy had some emotional gravitas, I didn't feel that it fully encompased what I was feeling, so now that I've had a fitfull, abbreviated nights sleep, I can come up with a slightly different analogy which sums up my feelings:

This is like someone coming over to your house, and bringing the parents of your dog with them.

They proceed to tell you how much they like the parents and how they are on good terms with the parents of your dog.

Then they proceede to violate your dog.

Then they shoot your dog.

Then they tell you that they will be giving you access to a new puppy at an undisclosed future date, but you won't be able to actually pet your new puppy.

That feels more like this situation to me . . .

The Exchange

In terms of the magazines, I have found Dragon pretty dull of late. I would always subscribe to it, but it didn't excite me in the way that Dungeon did. So I'm not too bothered by it's demise, as it sounds like I'll be getting twice as much Dungeon-ness for the subcription (though it it still expensive, and as a UK subscriber I'm getting slightly raped on the $5 postage as well).

I hope it all goes well for Paizo. The Pathfinder concept is probably a fairly big risk for the company, so let's hope that it flies for them given the pleasure thay have given lots of us with their high-quality publications over the years.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
...as a UK subscriber I'm getting slightly raped on the $5 postage as well).

Pathfinder mailings are expected to weigh in at just over 14 ounces. After the pending postage hike in May, it would cost $4.60 just to send that package within the US. Fortunately, we've managed to negotiate volume discounts that allow us to offer shipping on Pathfinder for $4 flat for US customers, and $5 flat for international. We think it's more than fair—it's REALLY GOOD.

By all means, if you can find any way to post a 14-ounce parcel from Seattle to the UK for much less than $5 (that also won't take a month to get there), please let me know.

-Vic.
.


Something WoTC hasn't considered;
I have many friends overseas, especially in Iraq. Their only connection to the game is through these magazines. They've said that these publications have been a Godsend. When they aren't being shot at and blown away, their gaming and remembering what it's like to be normal people playing a game.
What are our gaming men in uniform going to do now?


Lord Of Threshold wrote:

Something WoTC hasn't considered;

I have many friends overseas, especially in Iraq. Their only connection to the game is through these magazines. They've said that these publications have been a Godsend. When they aren't being shot at and blown away, their gaming and remembering what it's like to be normal people playing a game.
What are our gaming men in uniform going to do now?

This is a great point. I hope WotC adresses this issue.


hmm; primary posts are a bit rude, but for all we know WOTC didnt even decide this as this sort of corporate stuff happens all the time. Anything could have happened here; maybe WOTC increase the cost of renew so high that Paizo could not purchase it and viably fund their operation, or maybe WOTC wanted to control content of the issues or something; the number of possiblilites boggle the mind for those of us who know how this stuff works and work in a corporate environment; I would guess there there have been endless meetings and negotiations; perhaps other bidders for the rights; countless emails by people who believe that their ideas are best for company and state of gaming until it comes down to someone who has to decide, like a ceo, if they can profit by whatever contract was offered by the deadline. I dont see this as any one man fight, but two companies trying to profit from a negotiation; no agreement was reached obviously, but who knows; corporations are funny; maybe WOTC wants to generate a bunch of angst then either will make another counter offer in a month; if the deal is sweet enough there will be an agreement. It is all about love and beans; count them beans.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Here's how it went:

Our license was up for renewal, as is periodically specified in our contract. Wizards let us know that they had something else in mind, and wouldn't be renewing our license. We asked for an extension to allow us to complete the Savage Tide; they generously agreed. That's pretty much it. Continuing our license just wasn't an option that we had.


To any Paizo employee who reads this:

THANK YOU, for making such wonderful products! I have adored Dragon and Dungeon for quite some time now, firstly buying it off the shelf, then finally breaking down and getting a subscription to both last year.

I've been playing D&D since the mid-80s, and I've watched a few transitions. I knew, the day I heard that WotC took over the reigns, that someday, they would kill my game.

That day has come. They should have stuck to stupid card games. (No offense to Magic players, but I think those CCG games suck.)

I'm not particularly interested in the Adventure Path focused magazines, but I may pick up a copy just to see what it offers. However, I will continue to support this company, who has always been top-notch with its offerings, and customer support.

WotC will not get another dime from me for any of their printed material, and surely will not even garner consideration for me to pay for some PDF crap. Whatever money I spend on RPG materials at this point will come here.

Stay strong Paizo. We need you!


tylerthehobo wrote:

attributed to management earlier in this threadWere the magazines losing money?

Absolutely not. As far as I know, the sales of the magazines were not a factor in this decision. We're actually very pleased with the sales of the magazines, and in particular with our growing subscriber lists.

B.S. No one junks a magazine because its performance improves. Yes, the corporate folks are being classy about this and not selling each other up the river as the party at fault, but we're not children and deserve to be treated with respect for our dedication to this hobby. Many of us have been playing D&D and supporting these magazines for 30 years and to give us a saccharine-infused press release as a farewell is pathetic, wrong, and unprofessional. Best of luck - I'll buy my gaming gear elsewhere, as now the playing ground has been leveled so that Paizo is just like Goodman Games or anyone else making accessories, instead of providing a valuable service to the communty. I hope WotC stops getting spooked by World of Warcraft and trying to turn everything into web-content...

IIRC The same thing happened with the Star Wars gaming magazine...

Liberty's Edge

Vic Wertz wrote:

Here's how it went:

Our license was up for renewal, as is periodically specified in our contract. Wizards let us know that they had something else in mind, and wouldn't be renewing our license. We asked for an extension to allow us to complete the Savage Tide; they generously agreed. That's pretty much it. Continuing our license just wasn't an option that we had.

You really can't lay it our any more simply than that, that's a nice, clear, easy to understand explanation. I'm going to be very sad to see the end of the magazines, just like a lot of other people. I am very glad that WotC is allowing the Savage Tide to reach its end since I'm currently using that in my campaign (easily one of the best adventures I've ever seen, right up there with the old Against the Giants adventures) and I'd really hate to not be able to finish them. That may be the only thing WotC has done right in this whole situation, IMO.

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