Admittedly, I am not a computer game fan. I never got into WoW, Everquest...there are very few computer games I really like. I enjoyed Neverwinter Nights during a time when my paper & pen gaming was on hiatus. I picked up Neverwinter Nights II with breathless anticipation and dived into it.
About two weeks later, after trying to play about an hour a day to unwind with a glass of scotch....I no longer play. It's not even mental masturbation like Solitaire or Minesweeper. It's just boring! The stupid quests...the railroading inherent to all computer RPGs....I guess the visuals just don't affect me very much. I haven't played in weeks and every time I start I get frustrated after about 5 minutes because I'm searching some stupid cavern endlessly for some stupid plot necessary thing or person I missed and I can't proceed unless I find that one thing. Graphics? Nice, but baaaahhh humbug!!!
I think I'm through with computer RPGs permanently until the next "generation of virtual reality" arrives....anyone else feel this way?
I tried CRPGs years ago, when they still had awful graphics (Might and Magic III and IV or so). What shall I say? It´s not my poison. I prefer the "real thing" vastly. CRPGs are an inferior substitute, without personal interaction, and with sometimes outright stupid plot elements.
If I play games on the PC, I do play Diablo (which is no RPG to me, sorry - it is a tactical game. It is about as much an RPG as the HeroQuest board game was) or Heroes of Might and Magic (strategic game) or recently Baphomets Curse (classic computer adventure, at the moment I play part three. Adventures sometimes capture the spirit of RPGs, and this one does, IMHO).
Computer games can either capture the interaction part of RPGs (Adventure) or the tactical (rules) part (Diablo), but not both. I did not try WoW, but my guess would be that it captures the tactical part mostly. I will not touch it, as I know some folks who spend hours and hours on it - something I would be susceptible to also, and I don´t want this to happen.
Stefan
I like HOMM and also several of those D&D computer games, but indeed I also treat them mostly as tactical games with some nice backstories and pretty exploration. Closest thing to RPG I have played is Morrowind, which is for the most part still rather tactical but at least it hides the railroading really well, you can basically ignore the main plot if you want and just go and explore places, concentrate on side quests etc.
Haven't tried Oblivion yet.
I thought it was a great improvement from the first. But after those annoying playable NPCs, plot twists, and stronghold 101 (shudders), I felt like everything having a mediciny taste - and when I had that feeling I decided not bothering in finishing the story. Not even its replayabiliy, like trying out the various prestige classes, would entice me to go through it over again.
Try Oblivion, you can pretty much do whatever you want, you can help someone out and then steal them blind, you can throw your shoes on rooftops, and get a collection of dead bodies (at least for a while) I did the Murderer/Thief side, and havent even touched the main storyline(might have to so i can kill the king) from my understanding the main storyline is only about 20% of the content it's all the sidequests you can do that really make up the game. I even once murdered an entire town, except that the city gaurd just kept coming, and some named people don't die they just go unconcious. If you want to spend the time you can master pretty much all the skills in the game, so you can be everything all at once Healer,Stealthy, Fighter, Mage
I have to agree on NWN2. It's only fun when you're playing with other people, and getting everyone away from other games, or work or school for random NWN online gaming is nigh impossible these days for me. Not to mention NWN2 IS pretty... But also takes some crazy graphics. Not the highest these days, but when you're spending 1k+ on a gaming comp... It's not really that easy to just go out and upgrade all the time. I have to say that the game's got some crazy bugs right now. The SP campaign is fairly set, but the DMing and Worldbuilding side have all kinds of craziness going down, and that's really the only reason you'd come back to it.
As for other RPGs, I've played them all. You're trying to convince a bunch of tabletop RPGers that CRPGs (Console and Computer) are any sort of substitute -- at all. They're not. They never will be. Nothing can capture the sponteniety, nor the focus that tabletop offers. I love Morrowind and Oblivion, but soloing all the time is one of the most retarded things in the world. If the world's so dangerous and deadly, not to mention closing the gates of Oblivion themselves... You'd think you'd be able to find other heroes to help out. Now if that game had a multiplayer mode...
But I digress. NWN2 is lackluster, I agree. Pretty graphics, otherwise the game's got nothing over the original. The quests aren't spectacular, and like the original NWN, I've played the intro dozens of times and it's the most boring thing to ever play after the first time. I honestly haven't gotten that far, but the game just doesn't grab you to want to continue. The thing that will make the game though is the modding community. They're the ones who will inevitably say "This was an awesome game" or "This game wasn't worth the time and effort." Just my two cents, but nothing will ever come to what you're looking for. You have to approach video games as their own, completely different medium and experience, otherwise you'll always be dissappointed.
For me NWN2 is boring, join the dots crap. It's far too linear. I stopped playing after four hours. My friend stopped playing after two days (about 12 hours) and my mother (who will play any computer game to the end) stopped after a few days.
Uninstall!
Try Oblivion, you can pretty much do whatever you want, you can help someone out and then steal them blind, you can throw your shoes on rooftops, and get a collection of dead bodies (at least for a while) I did the Murderer/Thief side, and havent even touched the main storyline(might have to so i can kill the king) from my understanding the main storyline is only about 20% of the content it's all the sidequests you can do that really make up the game. I even once murdered an entire town, except that the city gaurd just kept coming, and some named people don't die they just go unconcious. If you want to spend the time you can master pretty much all the skills in the game, so you can be everything all at once Healer,Stealthy, Fighter, Mage
That sounds cool!
I Bought the original NWN Diamond edition (it came with some add-ons, I think) and, wow, talk about a bad game. I think I posted elsewhere on these threads that it was a close runner-up to Ubi-sucks horrific attempt at a Pools of Radiance remake with 3.0 rules. I uninstalled it after a week (about 10 hours total) of gameplay.
Return to Temple of Elemental Evil was okay - not great, but not bad. It had no replay value though. My favorite all time is the original Baldurs Gste. I'm thinking about reloading and giving it another go around for the sixth time.
I liked NWN II, but I haven't really played it long enough to know if I like it as much as I liked the first one. I'm hoping the toolset is friendly enough for mods of your own, I've been wanting to convert "Raiders of Galath's Roost" and "Glacier Season" for some time now.
I actually quite enjoyed NWN 2. It wasn't spectacular, but it was plenty good enough to pull me away from WoW for a couple of weeks (long enough to finish the OC once).
But the real value of NWN 2 won't be seen for about another 6 months, when the fan-created modules start coming out. They were the best part about the original NWN, and I'm really looking forward to seeing what they can do with NWN 2.
I see what you guys are saying. A CRPG can't compete with actually sitting down with your friends and playing. But I think it's a good substitute if you aren't currently playing with a group or if you're just jonesing for some D&D. Of the CRPGs, if you're playing on your own, though, you don't really want the NWN games. Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale are better alternatives, even if they are a bit dated. Planescape: Torment is also great, solely for the storyline; as is the industrial revolution era Arcanum. Combat really sucks in these latter games, though. Fallout, of course, is another amazing alternative.
I really want to play NWN2, myself. Even if just for the mods. One of the guys that was working on Baldur's Gate 3 before Interplay cancelled is making an NWN module of that game, The Black Hound, which I really want to get my hands on if I can.
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I liked both NWN and NWN II...
I think the NWN II story was better, but it cam out buggy as hell... stop playing it until the expansion came out then finished the main story and went on to the expansion story... got half way through that when the story went way south..had to stop play..
The Witcher... another RPG game, based on an improved version of the NWN engine is an awesome game!
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The one thing I liked about NWN2 was that each alignment had something going for it in conversations - you could generally rely on having a choice of Lawful vs Chaotic or Evil vs Good, sometimes both or a combination. That made the game more playable.
My biggest gripe was they continued the mistakes of NWN: Hordes of the Undermountain. Let me explain:
In HotU, you lose all of your gear at the start of the game and you don't get it back until about 1/3 of the way through. No big deal to a wizard or sorcerer, or even a druid or rogue. But to a fighter? Instant death. You go from having a kick-ass +5 Red Dragon Armor and a +5 some-such weapon, to having a +3 regular armor and +3 weapon. You are toast out of the gate. I played the module again as a wizard/monk and kicked a heck of a lot more butt!
So NWN2 comes out, and I go with my classic build from NWN, even more the way I wanted thanks to the option to do 4 classes: Cleric/Fighter/Weapon Master/Ranger - something from my favorite classes, but mostly focused on fighter. (Incidentally, this is why I ran into problems in HotU.)
Anyway, by the end of the game, you reforge the Silver Sword of Gith and you get a pretty decent weapon that any class is allowed to use. Problem is, I was a Waraxe-focused Weapon Master/Fighter. Since the Silver Sword is a "Universal Sword" and also, in a bit of a "screw you" from the game designers, cannot be unequipped from your PC.
So for the last 1/4 of the game, 10 levels of my character were effectively giving me jack squat - half of my fighter bonus feats and Weapon Master abilities counted for nothing. I didn't even play as my main PC for the endgame, it was so unplayable I had to switch to the Warlock to have a chance to kill things.
I got so mad, I am going through the game again as a Dwarven Barbarian/Sorcerer/Red Dragon Disciple/Frenzied Berserker.
Let's see the game take away my 40 Str!
Wow, an old post of mine came back to life!
I've given up on computer games completely. NWN II was the last one that I bought. I don't know what'll make me come back. I know I will someday, but the time is not now, even though I just bought a laptop with a DuoCore processor and 4gb of RAM.
I just hate the linear stories and the lack of choice disguised by pretty graphics. I hate learning new systems. I don' want to invest the time to get good at any of these games any more. In my leisure time I read books, work on my RPG campaigns and play with my son.
I got NWN2 for the Mac as soon as it came out and yes, the single player campaign is craptacular. I still played it almost to the end, though; I mean, I did spend money on it. I'm hoping Mask of the Betrayer gets ported to the Mac platform (I've heard the expansion is more fun and has a better story) and I'm looking forward to when Mysteries of Westgate comes out (in 30 years, when Atari has perfected even more draconian anti-piracy software).
My version doesn't even come with the tools to make my own adventures, either, which is complete b+%%+#!@. Whatever.
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The campaign is generally craptacular (especially the forcing of NPCs on you - what, my Paladin has to recruit the CE Jerk-Bag Ranger?) there were some notable improvements over NWN (which I shall list, because lists are great, and this thread needs some positive lovin'):
1. Reintroduce the world-map. It feels like you are exploring Faerun rather than slogging through yet another forest filled with goblins. That sounds like it would be the opposite, but no.
2. Better alignment system. In the first NWN, if you pooched your alignment (especially from Lawful to Chaotic) there was no chance to get it back, as alignment decisions came out of left field and were not usually 100% clear.
3. Spellcasting menus more intuitive. Leave it on quick-cast, drag to hotbar, toggle spontaneous casting, lots of good improvements. I must mention I did not like the elimination of radial menues. Those rock! I wish Windows had radial menus.
4. More weapons. Minor detail, but it was cool to have warmaces, proper flails, etc.
5. Graphics. I know it has been mentioned, but the graphics are damn pretty, even today.
Also, though the original NWN add-ons allowed this in regards to equipment, party members are fully customizable, which is definitely a plus even if some of them still kind of stink.
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Also, though the original NWN add-ons allowed this in regards to equipment, party members are fully customizable, which is definitely a plus even if some of them still kind of stink.
I love the comment in the final battle, where Black Garius says something like "It seems you have intentionally left your companions without equipment, as if you expected this to happen."
Darn right I did!
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I bought it for my wife for Christmas this year for her Mac. I've played it some, and enjoyed it.
Those who want to compare it to a pen/paper RPG are missing the point. It's apples and oranges. OF COURSE a pen/paper rpg is going to be better - it's got real people to interact with, and more importantly, a DM who can alter and customize his game to what his party wants, and who can think on the fly. If you could make a computer game as good as a pen/paper rpg, people wouldn't bother with the pen/paper game anymore, since it's a LOT more expensive, time consuming, and tough to schedule.
I play in a weekly pen/paper rpg, and I enjoy that. I play NWN2 when I have an hour to kill before dinner, and I enjoy that too. It's something I can do on my own schedule, and which appeals to me the same way other computer games do. Much like CivIV or Hearts of Iron 2 or any of the other games I play.
I do like NWN2 over the first one, for many reasons others have said. Having a full party is great, even if you only get to "make" one yourself. The alignment stuff, and having party members gain/lose confidence in you based on your decisions is a great advance. It feels a lot more like a "real" party. The graphics are better, and the options more varied.
The camera can be annoying and takes a little getting used to, but that's my only real gripe.
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I had this on my laptop when I was on a foreign secondment for three months, and I rather enjoyed it (though I didn't get round to finishing it). Sure it is railroady, but then most games are (and, frankly, I like a bit of plot, albeit that it isn't amazing). The PCs can be annoying sometimes, especially as you can't Escape when they decide to do a bit of "roleplaying", but you can customise them to some extent. I downloaded all of the updates but it is still a bit buggy (the "death spiral" when the camera just goes round and round and round and won't stop is particularly irritating). I actually gave up on Oblivion as I found it boring (and the setting looked much less interesting than Morrowind) and did NWN2 out of preference.
It obviously is not as good as actually playing D&D with friends but it is OK.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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See, I loved the original NWN. I actually finished Hordes of the Underdark (quite a feat for me... the closest I've come to finishing any CRPG is about halfway through Baldur's Gate, Planescape and Icewind Dale II and I loved all three of them).
EDIT: Actually I did finish Diablo and Diablo II, but they are totally different styles of game and much easier.
I was NOT fussed on NWNII. Sure the graphics were spectacular, but I really didn't like the new interface. I jusat found it too clunky compared to the original. I made it through the first Part (after you leave the village) twice, but just couldn't go on. I even bought Mask of the Betrayer against my better judgement, but it still couldn't pique my interest enough to get me to go on.
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See, I loved the original NWN. I actually finished Hordes of the Underdark (quite a feat for me... the closest I've come to finishing any CRPG is about halfway through Baldur's Gate, Planescape and Icewind Dale II and I loved all three of them).
EDIT: Actually I did finish Diablo and Diablo II, but they are totally different styles of game and much easier.
So, I probably shouldn't mention that I have finished each NWN campaign at least 6 times, Baldur's Gate II twice, Icewind Dale II, and Diablo II about 5 times. I never get tired of the games I enjoy. ;)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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So, I probably shouldn't mention that I have finished each NWN campaign at least 6 times, Baldur's Gate II twice, Icewind Dale II, and Diablo II about 5 times. I never get tired of the games I enjoy. ;)
Oh I wish I'd finished them. Most of the time I just got to a point where I got stuck and threw in the towel after a couple of attempts.
I hate that I do it, but it's a flaw of mine. I only JUST finished DOOM3 a couple of months ago after attempting it when it first came out and getting stuck at the first Spider Demon Boss thing.|
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So, I probably shouldn't mention that I have finished each NWN campaign at least 6 times, Baldur's Gate II twice, Icewind Dale II, and Diablo II about 5 times. I never get tired of the games I enjoy. ;)Oh I wish I'd finished them. Most of the time I just got to a point where I got stuck and threw in the towel after a couple of attempts.
I hate that I do it, but it's a flaw of mine. I only JUST finished DOOM3 a couple of months ago after attempting it when it first came out and getting stuck at the first Spider Demon Boss thing.
The worst is getting to the last chapter and realizing you missed an important item or NPC, or your saved game gets corrupted. I had that happen several times in NWN, BGII, and NWN2.
The worst is getting to the last chapter and realizing you missed an important item or NPC, or your saved game gets corrupted. I had that happen several times in NWN, BGII, and NWN2.
Yeah I hate that. But what I hate more is bad planing by the programers. In NWN the original campaign I reached the last "boss" (save just before). then I notice that the boss can't be hurt by my weapons and there is no way I can go back to town and get som other weapons.
But I guess that serves me right for playing with only one save slot.
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Sorry to bring an old thread back to life but I really got into NWN 2 AND Mask of the Betrayer (thought Storm of Zehir just sucks).
It reminded me more closely to Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 with the NPCs, which I found the crowning achievement to both t he BG series and NWN2 series (Zehir excluded). The interaction is fun enough and the plot for NWN2 and Mask was enjoyable.
Also I should say that when it first came out I couldn't play NWN2 much due to bugs. However after some time and some cool mods, it's just a great game.
The first NWN I found a bit weak in plot but Hordes of the Underdark was hella fun. Might reinstall that again and play it.
I also think for both games that what's the shining star in it's existance is the custom made worlds and persistant world servers you can play on for free. Find a good RP server and it's just a good time. Course I don't play on them in NWN 2 cause I never really looked (and also I don't want to get addicted) but it's the option that's nice.
I made it through NWN1 and all its expansions, but haven't tried 2 yet. I'm quite ashamed, but I need to actually go and play BG2. I haven't yet. Although, sad to say, my interest in BG2 got re-piqued when I heard about some excellent (and a couple not so excellent) fan made romance mods, which actually create interesting romantic dialogues and storylines between characters. Although word on the street is stay away from the Imoen mod.
But Planescape:Torment is still made of solid gold.
Oh, and.....Deekin? Doom doom do-doom doom.
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I made it through NWN1 and all its expansions, but haven't tried 2 yet. I'm quite ashamed, but I need to actually go and play BG2. I haven't yet. Although, sad to say, my interest in BG2 got re-piqued when I heard about some excellent (and a couple not so excellent) fan made romance mods, which actually create interesting romantic dialogues and storylines between characters. Although word on the street is stay away from the Imoen mod.
But Planescape:Torment is still made of solid gold.
Oh, and.....Deekin? Doom doom do-doom doom.
I actually have NOT played BG 2 with any of the mods but I'm very curious to try it out now!
... BG 2 here I come!! Of course I always thought Viconia was just amazing as is >_>
... ugh ... THAC0 T_T
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As a casual PC gamer (as in I buy one PC game about every four years,) I have to say I really like NWN2 and its expansions (I even like a few things about Storm of Zehir.) Once I got it patched up (and that's a lot of patching,) I had a lot of fun with the games. I'm looking forward to trying Mysteries of Westgate, and I'd probably buy a NWN3 as long as it didn't use 4.0 rules.
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The worst is getting to the last chapter and realizing you missed an important item or NPC, or your saved game gets corrupted. I had that happen several times in NWN, BGII, and NWN2.
Or even worse, you have a friend playing a game on your computer, and he accidently saves over your game, or once, even deleted files from a game's data folder, so it wouldn't even run anymore. Same guy, has done it so many times, he has been banned from touching almost everyones' computer that I know.
I'm looking forward to trying Mysteries of Westgate, and I'd probably buy a NWN3 as long as it didn't use 4.0 rules.
While I prefer Pathfinder over 4e, I think 4e would make for a pretty excellent computer game RPG system. It's fast, simple and easily repetitive (plusses for computer games, not so much for tabletop interactions). Adding flashy spelleffects to go with your 4e powers would make using them repeatedly much easier to digest.
4e makes for a very excellent tactical game and computer RPG's can thrive on such things.
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I'm looking forward to trying Mysteries of Westgate, and I'd probably buy a NWN3 as long as it didn't use 4.0 rules.While I prefer Pathfinder over 4e, I think 4e would make for a pretty excellent computer game RPG system. It's fast, simple and easily repetitive (plusses for computer games, not so much for tabletop interactions). Adding flashy spelleffects to go with your 4e powers would make using them repeatedly much easier to digest.
4e makes for a very excellent tactical game and computer RPG's can thrive on such things.
As a turned base RPG I think you're correct but given how many powers and abilities can force the enemy/yourself to be moved a certain number of times PLUS the use of counters or interrupts, I'm not quite sure how well THAT would play into the live action feel of the BG and NWN series (even if you CAN pause the game).
However if there were EVER a Pathfinder RPG PC game (not sure how that works with OGL being used if it's allowed or not) I would be a happy man. Like it or not Console Games can be good advertising for a system/world.
I knew a LOT of people who tried out D&D (and loved it) because of the BG series they played. Likewise they ALSO wanted to play in the Forgotten Realms. Hey if it works, it works.
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I know computer games are what initially introduced me to the Realms as well, all the way back to the original "Pool of Radiance"* series back when I played on a C-64 in the 80s. The Realms always seems to be the setting for the best D&D based computer games, regardless of the era. Pool of Radiance, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Neverwinter Nights. It's a powerful way to get to know a game world, and it's probably the #1 reason why I'm such a big fan of the realms. (up to 3.5 anyway, Realms 4e can bite my butt!)
*NOT to be confused with the much more recent "Pool of Radiance" that came out at the same time as 3rd ed was released. That game was an utter pile of over-hyped crap.
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I was first and foremost into MMO's. I had played D&D sparingly when I was a kid. I didn't really get into hardcore roleplaying till I bought NWN1 and then joined A Land Far Away (a roleplaying community for NWN). It was really fun using the 3.5 rules and playing in a Persistant world dedicated to Faerun. What was even better was this was a place full of roleplayers and not powergamers and little kids. These people became their characters.
ALFA had/has it's faults, but I enjoyed my time there. I managed to really get into 3.5 there. Bought tons of books just so I could DM better for the folks who joined my server. If it wasn't for NWN1 and playing on ALFA I wouldn't have gotten back into D&D.
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While I prefer Pathfinder over 4e, I think 4e would make for a pretty excellent computer game RPG system. It's fast, simple and easily repetitive (plusses for computer games, not so much for tabletop interactions). Adding flashy spelleffects to go with your 4e powers would make using them repeatedly much easier to digest.
4e makes for a very excellent tactical game and computer RPG's can thrive on such things.
Oddly enough, my apprehension about a 4E NWN doesn't actually have anything to do with the rules system. The two times I tried 4E it felt like I was playing a PC RPG converted to tabletop. It just didn't "feel" like D&D to me. NWN and NWN2 feel more like D&D to me than alot of console/PC RPGs I've played. Sort of like how the old SSI games Curse of the Azure Bonds and the original Pools of Radiance felt like D&D for me when I was a kid.
I was first and foremost into MMO's. I had played D&D sparingly when I was a kid. I didn't really get into hardcore roleplaying till I bought NWN1 and then joined A Land Far Away (a roleplaying community for NWN). It was really fun using the 3.5 rules and playing in a Persistant world dedicated to Faerun. What was even better was this was a place full of roleplayers and not powergamers and little kids. These people became their characters.
ALFA had/has it's faults, but I enjoyed my time there. I managed to really get into 3.5 there. Bought tons of books just so I could DM better for the folks who joined my server. If it wasn't for NWN1 and playing on ALFA I wouldn't have gotten back into D&D.
It should definitely be worth noting that NWN 1 had a pretty excellent RP community. Like Danubus, I joined an RP server (once called the Magic Bubble, later called the Legacy of the North) and it was ten million times better than the single player campaigns. I'm not sure if those communities are still around, but if they are, it might be worth looking into them. They could be so much fun.