The DMG states that mithral wieghs half as much as steel and that it costs 500gp a pound. So since it weighs half aas much as steel than a pound of mithral should be equal to 2 pounds of steel. Therefore a Greatsword (8lbs) would require 4 pounds of mithral and cost 2000gp. Just wondering what other DMs think about this.
The DMG states that mithral wieghs half as much as steel and that it costs 500gp a pound. So since it weighs half aas much as steel than a pound of mithral should be equal to 2 pounds of steel. Therefore a Greatsword (8lbs) would require 4 pounds of mithral and cost 2000gp. Just wondering what other DMs think about this.
There is a section in the PHB on this.
But not only is the material more expensive, it is also more difficult to work - and all weapons are considered as masterwork - thus raising the cost above the mere material cost.
An interesting question might be if you used the same weight of material would the weapon have 2x or 4x the hit points? What it be harder? Or possess other exotic properties?
The DMG states that mithral wieghs half as much as steel and that it costs 500gp a pound. So since it weighs half aas much as steel than a pound of mithral should be equal to 2 pounds of steel. Therefore a Greatsword (8lbs) would require 4 pounds of mithral and cost 2000gp. Just wondering what other DMs think about this.
The 500 gp/lb doesnt state whether the cost is per pound of material (in this case, 4lb) or per pound of the original item (8lb). I should point out, however, that platinum is valued 500 gp/lb (PH, 112), and mithral should probably be considered rarer and more precious than platinum--at least, in my opinion. I therefore price non-armor mithral items according to the pre-adjustment weight.
[Regarding the masterwork property of items crafted of mithral, the DMG is explicit on this: "the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below." Unlike normal items, special material costs are paid in full, while items made using the Craft skill normally take only one-third the price in raw materials.]
Pricing according to the mithral weight would mean that a mithral dagger, to use the extreme example, would cost 252 gp: 250 for the half pound of mithral and 2 gp for the usual dagger price. By contrast, a normal (steel) masterwork dagger costs 302 gp, more than the mithral version. [Note that the dart is worse, at 125gp 5sp for mithral, 300gp 5 sp for masterwork, but it's a corner-case where even the less-advantageous rule doesn't work. Besides, who uses darts?]
Then again, the rules don't jibe with themselves. If priced by weight, a chain shirt would add 6,250gp priced by its post-reduction weight alone; full plate would add 12,500gp.
So, it's all a mess. Do what you feel works best, be consistent with your ruling, and everything will work out fine.
The 500 gp/lb doesnt state whether the cost is per pound of material (in this case, 4lb) or per pound of the original item (8lb). I should point out, however, that platinum is valued 500 gp/lb (PH, 112), and mithral should probably be considered rarer and more precious than platinum--at least, in my opinion. I therefore price non-armor mithral items according to the pre-adjustment weight.
Don't forget to take size into account. A 4lb bar of steel would be the same size as a 2lb bar of Mithral. So metal items would be made with 1/2 the weight in Mithral.
I won't comment on pricing rules, but a Greatsword should require 4lbs of Mithral in place of 8lbs of steel. Don't forget to factor in that any items made from Mithral are Masterwork, thus increasing costs accordingly.
I do believe that a weapon or set of armor is not made out of 100% Mithral. A Mithral weapon would probably be made of parts mithral, parts steel, to reduce the costs.
Making something from pure Mithral would thus indeed set you at a cost of 500gp / pound of Mithral used + working costs for the weapon.
Anyway; it's just how you like to do it, of course. It's eventually up to the DM.
And if you made a weapon out of Mithral that were as heavy as its Steel counterpart, it'd be big and cumbersome, and probably give penalties on attacks...
It's the same question as to what happens when you make a Great Sword that is twice as heavy as a normal greatsword... the thing gets bigger, not better.
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Don't forget to take size into account. A 4lb bar of steel would be the same size as a 2lb bar of Mithral. So metal items would be made with 1/2 the weight in Mithral.I won't comment on pricing rules, but a Greatsword should require 4lbs of Mithral in place of 8lbs of steel. Don't forget to factor in that any items made from Mithral are Masterwork, thus increasing costs accordingly.
The part of the masterwork pricing is incorrect. All things made from mithral (and adamantite for that matter) are automatically considered masterwork. The price of "masterworking" an item is already included in the price of the special material.
Therefore a masterwork breastplate would cost 150 gp MORE than the standard listed price for a breastplate, but a mithral breastplate would cost 4000gp more (not 4150 more); when basing this on the DMG pricing of all med armor costing 4000 gp.
Robert
Thank you for pointing that out, Mr. Brambley. I was going to do so until I saw your post. :)
Weapons should have an entry on the table, to clear things up. I always assumed that the +500gp/lb. was for art objects and such. I guess the reason that a mithral weapon price isn't on the table is because there's no compelling reason to make weapons out of mithral. All it does is reduce the weight by half, which is hardly an effective use of the money required to do so, considering that most weapons aren't terribly heavy to begin with. If one-handed weapons made out of mithral could be treated as light weapons for certain purposes, you'd have something, but they can't, so you don't.
Notice that the DMG also lacks an entry for alchemical silver armor. Granted, the text states speaks only of weapons, but why not armor as well? The same goes for cold iron. It might be better off to just mentally "ignore" the possibility of mithral weapons as well, considering the above. However, that's just me and you may choose to ignore that suggestion.
In that case, I would price the item by its adjusted weight. That's about as good as you're going to do, barring the question being addressed by The Sage.
And if you made a weapon out of Mithral that were as heavy as its Steel counterpart, it'd be big and cumbersome, and probably give penalties on attacks...
It's the same question as to what happens when you make a Great Sword that is twice as heavy as a normal greatsword... the thing gets bigger, not better.
Only nominally - a sword with the width and breadth but twice as long - yeah that would be cumbersome and ridiculous - but for twice the weight - you would really have twice the volume with relatively minor adjustments to width, breadth, and length - potentially well within the normal deviation of say an longsword - which there are a wide ranfe of metrics on.#
Not saying it would be better just pointing out that a sword twice a wide (for example) is still pretty skinny.
Good point there, Kyr... doubling the weight doesn't mean doubling each dimension.
However, giving a glance over the weapon learns that doubling the weight of a Shortsword gives the weight of a Longsword, and doubling the weight of a Longsword gives the weight of a Greatsword.
By logic; if you halve the weight of the material, but keep the weight of the weapon the same, you'd say that a Mithral Shortsword of roughly 2lbs is about as big as a Longsword, a Mithral Longsword of roughly 4lbs about as big as a Greatsword and a Mithral Greatsword of roughly 8lbs about as big as a Large Greatsword...
So not as big as I pictured it, but still kinda cumbersome, I think. Not something you'd be able to wield...
Good point there, Kyr... doubling the weight doesn't mean doubling each dimension.
However, giving a glance over the weapon learns that doubling the weight of a Shortsword gives the weight of a Longsword, and doubling the weight of a Longsword gives the weight of a Greatsword.
By logic; if you halve the weight of the material, but keep the weight of the weapon the same, you'd say that a Mithral Shortsword of roughly 2lbs is about as big as a Longsword, a Mithral Longsword of roughly 4lbs about as big as a Greatsword and a Mithral Greatsword of roughly 8lbs about as big as a Large Greatsword...
So not as big as I pictured it, but still kinda cumbersome, I think. Not something you'd be able to wield...
My pitch for the Met (the Metrpolitan Museum of Art) begins here - The Met has an amazing collection of weapons in their arms and armor collection - every DM should see them - and the variety and length, weight, and character of rapiers, longswords, armor (all of a single type - say platemail or rapier) is staggering - which is sort of how I came up with the question - increase the breadth and width keep the length the same and you could very easily double the volume without significantly changing the balance - which I think - is primarily (though not solely) a function of the length - and the weight of the pommel. Which as I said is well within the range of dimesions on the items on display. The longswrd great sword jump - is basically a move of the same thickness to a longer blade which is the increase in weight.
Now you have opened a whole other issue. If we are speaking historically, the "greatsword" had a very dull edge. In such, it was known to do more bludgeoning type damage, i.e. breaking bones. It was not technically a slashing weapon as it is stated in the PHB.
The real question I would have, why would you want to make a weapon out of mithral? Mithral gives no effective bonus to a weapon. I would understand a weapon made of mithral as a ceremonial piece, not really as an item carried into battle. As such, it would be considered an object of art. In this case, the 500gp/pound makes sense, you can then increase the cost as you see fit to accomodate any jewels that may be imbedded. You can also play a little with the price if for instance a great mithral worker made the weapon.
Mithral is made to be used in armor. The effective weight reduction in all armor types is the purpose, thus making the armor drop in type from med to light or from heavy to med, of course, a light set can not be reduce below light.
On the question of doubling the quantity of material used, I would still rule that it is a different weapon. A long sword increased slightly in size is realistically a bastard sword (which becomes exotic weapon if you want to weild in one hand). Weapons are classified by construction, not weight. You thicken the steal, broaden the blade, lengthen the blade, it changes the use of it slightly. Compare a rapier with a long sword. The two are very similar in length. Weight is completely different as the rapier has a very slim blade, a long sword has a thicker blade (an arguement above) the use of the two weapons are completely different. How would taking a long sword and widening its blade maintain the use of the weapon?
Wow, that might be a bit wordy, but I think I got in all I had to say. Mithral is for armor, not weapons. Mithral weapons should be treated as art objects. If you change the dimensions of weapons, they become new weapons.
My 2 cents.
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Now you have opened a whole other issue. If we are speaking historically, the "greatsword" had a very dull edge. In such, it was known to do more bludgeoning type damage, i.e. breaking bones. It was not technically a slashing weapon as it is stated in the PHB.
I've read much the same thing about the U.S. Calvary Saber, that it was meant to crush skulls.
The real question I would have, why would you want to make a weapon out of mithral? Mithral gives no effective bonus to a weapon. I would understand a weapon made of mithral as a ceremonial piece, not really as an item carried into battle. As such, it would be considered an object of art. In this case, the 500gp/pound makes sense, you can then increase the cost as you see fit to accomodate any jewels that may be imbedded. You can also play a little with the price if for instance a great mithral worker made the weapon.
Not sure if I agree about mithral weapons only being objects of art. As you say, one wouldn't have any inherent bonuses or advantages. However, I also don't see that one would have any inherent weaknesses or disadvantages. The best I would see is that maybe such a weapon would be considered masterwork, simply because I assume it would take lots of skill to fashion mithral.
By the by, I like the image you use. Isn't that the Blood of Vol Cultist mini? I may not like much about Schmeberron, but I do like that mini.
Okay mabye I should clear things up a little. I am not trying to make mithral weapons, I am trying to coat a zepplin in mithral. I was going to buy an old sailing ship, coat it in mithral and enchant it to fly. That plan went out the window when I did the math and found out that it would require something like 10 tons of mithral and cost over 53 million gp. Now I am going to coat the thing in half an inch of simple steel or iron. The reason I wanted to coat the ship's hull in mithral (also the reason to make a weapon out of mithral) was that mithral is much harder than steel.
However, I also don't see that one would have any inherent weaknesses or disadvantages.
Actually, since it's much lighter, wouldn't it compromise the functionality of weapons that rely on mass to do their damage, rather than a sharp edge or point? Weapons like greatswords (whether of historical or D&D variety) rely on their weight and size to be effective, no? So, reducing that mass would impede them. The same goes for hammers (at least, D&D hammers, since real ones relied more on concentrating the force into a small pick-like head rather than being war-sledges as this game is wont to portray), heavy maces and heavy flails, etc.
The precedent for a special material actually reducing the effectiveness of a weapon also exists, namely in the form of alchemical silver. Unless you plan on fighting lycanthropes, this is actually a downgrade in weapon performance.
Like I stated in my post, and Valenare echoed, mithral really isn't for weapons at all.
Of course, now we know that such an endeavor was never the intention of the original poster, but simply appeared as such because of the example used.
I would still look into coating the blimp in mithral because you can get the protection of iron or steel plating for half the weight, which is very important for air craft. I know it sounds expensive, but just throw out a phrase like "economies of scale" or some such and point out to your DM that this is a cool idea (which it is), and thus the price should be based more on game balance (how much should it cost your character to get X amount of protection on his zepplin, compared to other things he could do with the same money, and how would affect play) than on "realistic calculations" (which are largely inapplicable, since it's a made up material being used for a made up purpose, and the game designers most likely never considered this use for it, and the point of playing is to have fun).
Depending on the size of the ship and other circumstances, I'd price it anywhere from 15,000 to 80,000gp- quite a price spread and by no means cheap, but far from the 53,000,000 calculated by the DMG's price listings.
Oh, and not to be nit-picky, but it seems the accepted spelling is mithral, as opposed to mithril. At least in the DMG- if anyone can find an inconsistent spelling in another sourcebook, then... good for you?
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Like I stated in my post, and Valenare echoed, mithral really isn't for weapons at all.
Actually, there is one very valid use for mithral in weaponry: It lightens the weapon such that one-handed weapons can be treated as light weapons. For example, if one were to dual-wield scimitars (yes, yes, I know...) you would take the -2/-4 penalty for wielding two one-handed weapons (assuming TWF feat). However, if the off-hand scimitar were mithral, you would be back to -2/-2 since the off-hand weapon is light. Granted, you COULD use a rapier in the off-hand instead, but what if you had Weapon Focus, Specialization, and Improved Crit in scimitars?
The other reason for mithral weaponry is to allow your elven wizard with 6 Strength to make use of his racial longsword proficiency without putting him into his medium load. ;)
Unfortunately, that is incorrect. The "proficiency" category changes apply only to armor. The DMG actually specifically states that, "in the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapon's size category or the ease with which it can be wielded (whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed)." (DMG 284)
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Unfortunately, that is incorrect. The "proficiency" category changes apply only to armor. The DMG actually specifically states that, "in the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapon's size category or the ease with which it can be wielded (whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed)." (DMG 284)
Hmmm... I wonder if that was a 3.0 rule that we always just took for granted then? Well, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Guess that means its a house rule for us now! ;)
I did the math to find out how much it would cost. I found out what the surface area of a 90ft long sailing ship. I might try to coat the ship in 1/8in of mithral instead of the original 1/2in. This should make it so I only require about 4 and a half tons of mithral instead of the original 18 tons. Than reduces the cost to 900,000gp. I might try mixing steel and mithral in equal quantities. This would half the price, half the hardness, and increase the weight by 1/4. Does this sound balanced? Further suggestions are very welcome.
Maybe hire a wizard to cast polymorph any object? If that isn't too cheezy, that is.
You know, that never even occured to me.
Well I went crazy about mithrl and changed it into something really rare and cool for my game....
Somethnig that the players only get if the do a super cool quest for the elves or the dwarves.
No one can really buy it...
here it is....
Mithril is the Elvish name of a metal (also called "silver steel" or "true silver") with near-magical properties of strength, beauty, and lightness. This metal was worked by Dwarves and elves into intricate armor, light in weight and comfortable enough to be worn constantly, yet unobtrusive and nearly indestructible. Mithril is a rare metal found deep within the earth. It can only be forged with intensely hot magical blue fire. Items made of pure Mithril cost up to Fifty times their listed value, weigh 50% as much as steel, are incredibly strong and easily enchanted - having psudeo magical properties. Mithril and Mithril alloy do not rust, and only corrode if exposed to incredibly strong acids or bases and is nearly completely immune to heat and cold. They can be polished to have extremely little friction. Raw Mithril is dark silvery gray. When worked, it is satin silver in color. Dwarves usually have a monopoly on Mithril mining. They will sometimes sell impure Mithril alloy to non-Dwarven craftsmen usually for around 500 gp a pound but do not part with pure refined Mithril ingots. Mithril Items are automatically +2 before any enchantment takes place. The armour also provides Damage reduction 2 - 5 from fire and cold and Mithril armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as clothing. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from Mithril are decreased by 50%, maximum Dexterity bonus is increased by 3, and armor check penalties are lessened by 3 (to a minimum of 0).
Weapons or armors fashioned from Mithril are always masterwork items as well.
Now it RULES.
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Actually, since it's much lighter, wouldn't it compromise the functionality of weapons that rely on mass to do their damage, rather than a sharp edge or point? Weapons like greatswords (whether of historical or D&D variety) rely on their weight and size to be effective, no? So, reducing that mass would impede them. The same goes for hammers (at least, D&D hammers, since real ones relied more on concentrating the force into a small pick-like head rather than being war-sledges as this game is wont to portray), heavy maces and heavy flails, etc.
Maybe not. It could also mean that the lighter weapon requires less force in order to swing it. Which means that using greater force might be easier and you could thus be hitting harder.
At the same time, when a weapon relies more on gravity to do its work (such as when on horseback and swinging down at someone), then the lighter weapon would probalby do less damage as you suggest.
Its really all in the math. F=ma. Sometimes you'll get more force with a lighter weapon, sometimes with a heavier one. And I'm not even taking friction into account. I've never thought to do the actual calculations, but it might be interesting. Ultimately, I think its one of those things a DM would have to personally rule on.
If you want to coat an entire blimp in Mithral, I think you are moving beyond the 'x.000 gp' barrier and into the 'let's do a quest to find a huge Mithral vane (sp?)' area.
Remember; Mithral is rare. Very rare. Buying a set of armor is managable, because such is its common use and it's too expensive for most people. Buying >100lbs unworked at once is nigh impossible.
Coating an entire blimp... that's the stuff of legends. You'll craft a vessel that will be known around the world; the mere mention of it's name will probably awe anyone who hears it.
If I were DM, this kind of thing would require a huge quest, some serious trouble, a lot of time, but the reward...
Think about a name for your ship, because it'll come up quite a lot once it's finished and in the air.
On a game rule notice: walls and such can be 'treated' by magic to increase their properties. Consider a very light coating (maybe 1/12th of an inch or such?) and then applying the magic that is used to reïnforce walls.
It increases the HP by like 50 points (minimum) and you can keep the hardness of Mithral.