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Ok I might be showing how inept I am but here is, my question to all you knowledgeable D&D Fanatics. I was just thinking about our resident rogue hiding in shadows. If she is hiding in a shadow with no other cover, the guards have just walked by her missing there spot checks, and now she is approached by a Half orc with dark vision. Would she get a minus on her hide or would she just stick out? This is just a really minor question but I am just trying to figure it out in game terms.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I was just thinking about our resident rogue hiding in shadows. If she is hiding in a shadow with no other cover, the guards have just walked by her missing there spot checks, and now she is approached by a Half orc with dark vision. Would she get a minus on her hide or would she just stick out?
She would not take a penalty on her Hide check but the guards without darkvision should have gotten the usual penalty to Spot for darkness. The half-orc would not suffer this penalty. If the rogue is simply hiding in a shadowy area (i.e. not complete darkness), then the rules get a little fuzzier.
In complete darkness, creatures without darkvision automatically fail Spot checks (they are effectively blind). Creatures WITH darkvision check Spot against Hide normally. However, beyond the range of the creature's darkvision (60 ft. in most cases), they are considered blind as well. If the area is shadowy but not completely dark, the rules say that there is a penalty to Spot for spotting things in shadowy areas. Nowhere does it say (to my knowledge) that having darkvision eliminates these penalties. It simply states that they can see normally in total darkness. Now, in my opinion, that's silly and I allow darkvision to ignore the Spot penalties for shadowy areas as long as its within range of the creature's darkvision. Outside that range, they suffer the usual Spot penalties.
The shadows do not provide concealment against darkvision. So without something else to hide behind she has no effective concealment and cannot use the hide skill at all against creatures he is completely exposed to.
You have to remember that you don't make a spot check to actually 'see' anything. Your eyes detect anything that reflects light(IE, just about everything).
You make a spot check to recognise something as being out of the ordinary, the half-orc does have darkvision but if he thinks the rogue is part of the wall, or just a shadow then that’s the end of the story. Just because you see something doesn't mean you always recognise it, I for one have been known for staring at what I thought was a squirrel that turned out to be three sticks with brown leaves in a strange jumble. Go figure...
So my two copper on the subject is that darkvision negates the penalties that you receive when making spot checks in darkness.(its also black and white, and I for one find it easier to detect things in full colour)
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The shadows do not provide concealment against darkvision. So without something else to hide behind she has no effective concealment and cannot use the hide skill at all against creatures he is completely exposed to.
Yes, you're completely right. I've played too many 'hide in plain sight' characters, I think.
Interesting question. At first, I completely agreed with Sexi. The rogue must have concealment or cover to use Hide. Against a creature with Darkvision, I would rule there is effectively no concealment, thus disallowing the Hide check totally (to the half-orc, the rogue is just crouching there in the open). Similarly, in total darkness, I would rule that the rogue must have cover, not concealment, to Hide (as there is no need to Hide against creatures without Darkvision, and there is no concealment against those with it). Granted, darkvision is black and white and not as easy to discern images in as in color... at least for a human. I imagine a creature who lives with that biology can do it just fine, and thus there would bed no "penalties" to the Spot check, and without some cover,the rogue can't even attempt the Hide check against the darkvision-possessing creature.
However, then comes the issue that it's not just total darkness- from the description, it sounds like it's a shadow area in what is otherwise bright light. I'd adjudicate this as the rogue getting to make the Hide check against the half-orcs Spot, which takes no penalties. The mish-mahs of visual information is enough that the half-orc might be confused, which at least leats the rogue attempt the check.
On the other hand, I'm not overly versed in the rules of this matter, and thus may be making a grave blunder. Please inform me if this is the case.
The DMG says that darkvision is not affected by the presence of light. So it does not matter what the lighting conditions are. Areas lacking enough light to see (enough to grant concealment) fall under the effects of darkvision and are percieved just as clearly as the surrounding lit areas. The assumption that darkvision is disrupted by light makes since when comparing it to nightvision but the rules don't seem to support it.
The half-orc can see the rogue as she gets no concealment and cannot use the hide skill. The DM could call for a spot check if he rules the Rogue is difficult to see despite not being able to hide. Then the spotter would have to hit a DC 0 spot check modified by any penalties he might be under (-1 per 10ft of distance, -5 if he is distracted and so on.)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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The DMG says that darkvision is not affected by the presence of light. So it does not matter what the lighting conditions are. Areas lacking enough light to see (enough to grant concealment) fall under the effects of darkvision and are percieved just as clearly as the surrounding lit areas. The assumption that darkvision is disrupted by light makes since when comparing it to nightvision but the rules don't seem to support it.
I disagree - treating darkvision as negating all shadows seems extremely powerful and well beyond the scope of the ability. It's like saying "humans can see colors" therefore "humans can see color in low light." That's not true, color vision requires a certain amount of light. Once you are beneath that threshold, you can't see colors.
Similarly, if you are standing in the sunlight looking into a darker room (but a room in which you could see had your eyes adjusted), you can't necessarily see into that room. There's no reason to believe that darkvision doesn't operate on similar principals and that it only operates once the eyes are properly dialated (or what have you).
Actually, per the description of darkvision, "The presence of light does not spoil darkvision." So no need for a period to "get used" to the darkness at all. Also, the rules actually specifically state "A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover."
Check the sections Special Abilities: Darkvision and Exploration: Vision And Light if you need specific rule references.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Actually, per the description of darkvision, "The presence of light does not spoil darkvision." So no need for a period to "get used" to the darkness at all. Also, the rules actually specifically state "A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover."
Check the sections Special Abilities: Darkvision and Exploration: Vision And Light if you need specific rule references.
Oi! I stand corrected, thanks for the reference.
I still don't agree with all the implications of the statement that the presence of light does not spoil darkvision. Read literally, that suggests that a blinding flash of light (say, glitterdust) would not effect the target's ability to see if it had darkvision.
True, one could imply that (though I'd smack a player in the head for such shenanigans!). Darkvision has some crazy-powerful applications that many DMs/Players often overlook. Most dungeons should never have light sources, as many denizens can see in the dark, and anyone carrying a light source would be obvious at a great distance.
That's why one of my favorite scouting/sneak magic items is the FR ring of the darkhidden (wearer cannot be seen by darkvision)! Find some monsters that think they're going to get a jump on you in the darkness, walk right up to 'em (with a high Move Silently, of course) and whack 'em good! If they don't have a light source handy, you're practically invisible...
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That's why one of my favorite scouting/sneak magic items is the FR ring of the darkhidden (wearer cannot be seen by darkvision)! Get some monsters that think they're going to get a jump on you in the darkness, walk right up to 'em (with a high Move Silently, of course) and whack 'em good! If they don't have a light source handy, you're practically invisible...
That is definitely a good one. I'm also a fan of the spell blacklight from the BoVD (I think). It provides light for non-darkvisioned characters to see by but is not visible from outside the radius of light it provides. It's not even an evil spell, so I don't have a problem with non-evil characters using it if they can somehow find a way to learn it (sorcerers have it easy).
Actually, per the description of darkvision, "The presence of light does not spoil darkvision." So no need for a period to "get used" to the darkness at all. Also, the rules actually specifically state "A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover."
Check the sections Special Abilities: Darkvision and Exploration: Vision And Light if you need specific rule references.
Oi! I stand corrected, thanks for the reference.
I still don't agree with all the implications of the statement that the presence of light does not spoil darkvision. Read literally, that suggests that a blinding flash of light (say, glitterdust) would not effect the target's ability to see if it had darkvision.
Well actually glitterdust might but that requires them to fail a fortitude save. As I said above when using examples like nightvision or our own ability to slowly adapt to poor lighting it would make sense that darkvision would be spoiled or disrupted by light. My guess is this is one of the reasons the designers made it darkvision instead of nightvision. Just the same as they did away with infravision. This way the power can not be compared to real life abilities and there would be no arguments from players about the real world limitations of a creatures sight.
And yes it is an extreamly powerful ability in my persoal opinion and many times my group has found itself walking in the dark through goblin or orc caves knowing a lit torch would alert them to us far before we knew where they were at. I still fear the thought of dwarven, orc, or goblin rogues. All they need to do is jump in a room and kill the lights and they effectively blind all their opponents with no save and escape unlikely.
I still fear the thought of dwarven, orc, or goblin rogues. All they need to do is jump in a room and kill the lights and they effectively blind all their opponents with no save and escape unlikely.
Yep...that's why the ring of the darkhidden tactic above is so brutal. It basically gives continuous greater invisibility to the wearer as long as it's pitch black. Sneak in a dark room first to look for potential light sources (wall torches, lanterns, etc.) and get rid of those, and of course jam all the doors shut. Then start killing everything in "sight." Add in something like slippers of spider climbing to lurk in an unlikely place, and you can basically shoot everything to death from 30' away.
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As I said above when using examples like nightvision or our own ability to slowly adapt to poor lighting it would make sense that darkvision would be spoiled or disrupted by light. My guess is this is one of the reasons the designers made it darkvision instead of nightvision. Just the same as they did away with infravision. This way the power can not be compared to real life abilities and there would be no arguments from players about the real world limitations of a creatures sight.
This is why I continue to stand by my opinion that darkvision functions on low frequency radio waves (as first described in this thread). All matter in the universe (with the exception of a few cosmic anomalies) emits radio waves. The reason darkvision is limited is because radio waves lose focus at relatively short distances from their origin (unless amplified extensively by, say, a radio station's amplifier tower). Rocks, plants, people, doors, windows, EVERYTHING emits radio waves. Bright flashes of visible light would not have any effect on radio waves whatsoever nor would it confuse a radio wave sensor (thereby "dazzling" the user). This interpretation of darkvision works amazingly until you put it into a modern-era campaign. In that case, all you would see is a foggy mist of THOUSANDS of radio frequencies being emitted from everywhere unless you are far away from anything resembling civilization.
Which is just one more reason to add to my long list of "Why I Don't Play d20 Modern!" I do like the radio wave analysis, but just have a nagging fear that any sort of hard definition of the ability is begging for abuse. Nevertheless, there are far fewer people that can make an argument in that arena of knowledge than those that can if parallels to real sight are applicable.
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I do like the radio wave analysis, but just have a nagging fear that any sort of hard definition of the ability is begging for abuse.
Well, there are pros and cons to using this interpretation of the ability to be sure. For example, deposits of uranium (or other naturally radioactive substances) would certainly hamper darkvision in a given area. In a fantasy setting, one can simply state that such materials do not exist, so that's not such a huge issue.
Clever players might search for a way to create a radio transmitter (perhaps through magical means, possibly involving custom spells) so that they can use it as 'radar' for a character with darkvision. Emitting amplified radio waves and having them bounce back would effectively increase the range of darkvision with this interpretation, possibly to nearly infinite range. Again, as DM, you can simply ban such notions but then your players might get upset that you are thwarting their ingenuity with a heavy-handed DM fiat.
In the end, perhaps it is best to simply leave it as 'undefined' but, if it makes you feel better, you can tell YOURSELF that its radio waves. The players don't have to know.