SO heres the party composition:
1 dwarf fighter
1 goat race barbarian
1 monk
1 paladin (being used by doppelganger badguy)
1 duskblade
They had enough trouble with the 3 mimics..then healed up...
Fought through the backstabbing of the 2 cell mates...and then ruched through the door to the Invisible Stalkers room. In here, it was a TPK except that I fudged it all, whickh pissed me off. They kept falling into the water or getting hit by the slams of the stalkers...Easy pickings
Now before we started the AoW, I told them that they would die here and there...you know @#$# happens...They have always played were the heroes never die. Well they have all died to this point at least 1 time...
Before this episode, I told them to propare a backup character 'just in case'...which only 1 of them did..No clerics, no rogues, no mages ooh my...
aarrggg
I dont want to fudge every encounter !!! Aside from TPK and then ,hopefully, them wanting to continue with new characters, what can I do ??
thanks
Perhaps you need to address the issue in game? Is there an NPC they deal with regularly who can talk to them about the occasional need for a tactical retreat? Maybe if they heard some wizened warrior say "You know, some times you just have to regroup and come back. Does ya know good to die today, when you can live and beat the b@stard tomorra!"
If you've already explained to them that the PCs might (and likely will) die at some point, that's all you can do. Either they will learn to be more careful, or those who don't like a challenge will stop playing. Unfortunate, but that's life. :-(
Maybe gang up on one character at a time? If the stalkers took out the paladin the rest of the party will (at least my folks will :) gasp and reassess the situation. Then the stalkers start beating on the cleric, etc.
I am assuming the PCs are the right level for the adventure but even if they are, the players might not be (especially if they think the heroes always live :). Keep the 'scaling this adventure' sidebar handy and drop an encounter down an EL or two. PCs will advance less quickly, but they will still advance and if they players get bored, they may start playing smarter to get to something more challenging. You will not have to do this for every encounter, especially a simple combat encounter, but you can scale enough to encourage them.
Keep in mind that a true hero is willing to die if that is what it takes, so killing a few can make them martyrs.
Get rid of one of the stalkers in this case. This is a nasty encounter. Either have them hit the group one at a time, or simply have one of them be dead (it was invisible, so how would they know?). Regardless, if you want them to be more durable, you need to do things like give them max hp per level, have them die at -(CON) instead of -10, etc. You have to give the monsters max hp too, but it gives you a lot more wiggle room to control the duration of the encounter and keep them all exciting.
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This is crazy. Please WASTE ALL OF THEM during the next game session. If your players choice of classes and decisions during the game merit serious consequences, then let the natural consequences happen. You are only delaying the inevitable by letting them off the hook each week. There are WAY TOO MANY players who have this allergic reaction to character death. If your players seriously can't handle character death and lose enthusiasm for the game if you don't bail them out, then I would suggest that they may have some personal problems that are beyond your ability to help... or ought to be playing some other game than d&d... like maybe Chutes & Ladders
My group will be playing through this adventure soon, and I've been thinking of ways to modify some parts in order to avoid a TPK myself. I'm thinking of using the stalkers as a form of magical "trap". So, a "gust of wind" will attempt to blow a PC off the plank when they reach the middle of each segment. Other than that, I don't think I'm going to have all three stalkers full out attack. Ideally, the PCs will take their lumps, make their dexterity checks, and push on through. Worse case scenario, they have to move through the water, thus taking additional damage.
Would these changes have made things easier for your group, do you think?
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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This is crazy. Please WASTE ALL OF THEM during the next game session. If your players choice of classes and decisions during the game merit serious consequences, then let the natural consequences happen. You are only delaying the inevitable by letting them off the hook each week. There are WAY TOO MANY players who have this allergic reaction to character death. If your players seriously can't handle character death and lose enthusiasm for the game if you don't bail them out, then I would suggest that they may have some personal problems that are beyond your ability to help... or ought to be playing some other game than d&d... like maybe Chutes & Ladders
I was playing in a group for a while where the primary "storyteller" (it was a Werewolf/Mage campaign) ran a horrible game where she would not kill off the PC's no matter what. It got to the point where my character was threatened at gunpoint and I told the guy to piss off because I knew (i) I couldn't hurt him and (ii) I wouldn't die (and I didn't).
Anyway, once 3e came out, I got behind the screen. The first thing I did was tell them I run a deadly game, I don't screw around. The first thing her husband did was go off on his own rather than working with the rest of the party. His character died and the two of them were so offended that they quit the campaign. I recruited two new players, one of them a first timer how turned out to be one of the best gamers I've ever known.
I can't say how thankful I am that I killed those characters.
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This is crazy... like maybe Chutes & Ladders
Hey Allen, chill a moment and try to lose the agressive tone. The game's all about fun, and surely you would agree that there is not a single "true" way how to play. That would be silly wouldn't it?
Now to the DM,
From what you express, I would say that if your players aren't used to retreating, then the Age of Worms as written is going to provide a steep learning curve. This may be better addressed out of game rather than in. Chances are from what you describe though, the players enjoy playing heroic characters and so won't make a tactical retreat and they certainly would not leave somebody behind to die. As such, I think you have to invest a little more time preparing the game for them.
Look for encounters that push the boundaries relative to your group. If you see issues (or read about them on this board such as the Sodden Hold Stalkers), then look to lessen the numbers or power level of opponents involved. If you feel confident and have the time, choose alternative opponents that your PCs can handle (and enjoy defeating).
By this point, there seems to have been quite a few deaths involved so they should have a degree of respect for the campaign. You can use this to build excitement, emphasising the "danger" even if behind the screen you're fiddling with the figures to keep a balance. As long as the players feel they are being taken right to the edge they will enjoy it so much that they won't notice the safety net at the bottom of the cliff.
However, if you prefer to play it hard and straight down the line (as I have done with my group), you allow natural attrition to form a party that survives. While several characters in my group are sub-optimal, together they are really humming and everyone's enjoying the ride. Just look out for some of the signature encounters and make sure the party aren't going to get walked straight over. Tailor what you have to but after that point, play it hard.
Which ever way you go, make sure your group (and you in particular) are having fun - it's what it's all about.
In which direction are you thinking of going?
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
(Ooh, you got the doppelganger infiltration to work? Good for you! I had to to the aranea bit...anyway.)
Based on your party composition--and I'm not sure if the party is still alive or not, or if the encounter is going to be repeated, but--your players like to play martial, probably melee-oriented, characters. The problem with a party like this is that it can lack versatility. I would encourage the idea of back-up characters, and if you can nudge your players to make a more diverse selection of characters, they'll find they're ready for the large number of surprises in HoHR. You might want to bribe the player with something like a free scroll or wand to seal the deal.
If nothing else, check out the Wormfood article--forgot the issue--applicable to The Free City, and shopping for magic items. Several potions can be procured that can help them cope with their focused composition. Potions of fly should be staples, even if the expense may seem undesireable. Same should go for potions of see invisibility, darkvision, etc. Unless you are restricting access to purchasing magic items, nudge them to go shopping for supplies.
While I encourage scaling encounters, I think all the articles are well-balanced. And if the party is of an appropriate level for the encounter, I agree that the challenge should be a part of the excitement. In my experience, its after those moments where the party barely survives, that everyone cheers and pats one another on the back.
I agree with Hierophantasm that your party's composition isn't broad enough; too much melee, not enough anything else. What I'd do is run a side-trek where they are soundly beaten or captured (but not killed) by a rival group (Auric, Khellek, and Tirra to add a personal element to the next adventure) through good tactics, magic, and ranged attacks. Then, if they don't learn, start taking off the gloves and letting characters die (one at a time; make sure you enforce NPC spellcasting costs for Raise Dead).
Hopefully, they'll start creating a party that covers all the bases and works as a team. An all-warrior party can be a fun campaign, but the APs are designed toward "typical" parties and will need to be reworked more the farther from "typical" your party is. Mid-level and up, magic becomes increasingly important to the party's survival and parties without any primary casters tend to easy prey for magic using foes.
Reinforcing idea of a balanced party here--this AP gets increasingly deadly with succeeding adventures for parties that don't have a significant amount of magic at their disposal. If you don't have a bona fide cleric and a bona fide mage in the party by the time you hit Spire of Long Shadows, every encounter is a guaranteed TPK. Unless you want to seriously rewrite the upper part of this AP, you may be better off either persuading them to replace dead some dead warriors with real spellcasters, or providing some spellcasting DMPCs (this gets tricky--I'm doing this in my one-on-one campaign, but I have player tell me what threats he expects based on information available and prepare my spellcasters based on that).
Alternatively, abandon AOW and do an Iron Heroes campaign--sounds like your players are more in that vein. If you want a published campaign that's more oriented toward warrior types, you might try the Red Hand of Doom--it's not a full AP, but it's pretty good, and is more easily adapted toward a melee oriented party.
This is crazy. Please WASTE ALL OF THEM during the next game session. If your players choice of classes and decisions during the game merit serious consequences, then let the natural consequences happen. You are only delaying the inevitable by letting them off the hook each week. There are WAY TOO MANY players who have this allergic reaction to character death. If your players seriously can't handle character death and lose enthusiasm for the game if you don't bail them out, then I would suggest that they may have some personal problems that are beyond your ability to help... or ought to be playing some other game than d&d... like maybe Chutes & LaddersI was playing in a group for a while where the primary "storyteller" (it was a Werewolf/Mage campaign) ran a horrible game where she would not kill off the PC's no matter what. It got to the point where my character was threatened at gunpoint and I told the guy to piss off because I knew (i) I couldn't hurt him and (ii) I wouldn't die (and I didn't).
Anyway, once 3e came out, I got behind the screen. The first thing I did was tell them I run a deadly game, I don't screw around. The first thing her husband did was go off on his own rather than working with the rest of the party. His character died and the two of them were so offended that they quit the campaign. I recruited two new players, one of them a first timer how turned out to be one of the best gamers I've ever known.
I can't say how thankful I am that I killed those characters.
I'm equally thankful you killed those characters, Sebastian. That's a really touching story. I hope we can get a few more testimonials like this about DM's who bravely lay the smack down on their overly sensitive players on this thread.
thanks for all the advice
as I see it, its the players stupidity to not cover all the bases that is the main element of contention...Hopefully, with a couple more deaths, will come the mentality that the need of a rogue, cleric, mage, and fighter is need.
A party made up of only melee types is doomed...They have nothign to counter the evildoers magic...
If nothign else, they are consistent though
I haven't had much PC kills. I mainly did homemade adventures when I DM'ed. AOW is the first (pre-made, if you like) adventure path I'm DM'ing. Maybe that's the reason I didn't have many yet..
Anyhow, I've never had to withheld myself that much as you did. (I'm sure I did here and there a little... when I was tired). But, I've had a similar group, with similar behaviour.
Mine was like lots of talking, no tactics.. even during battle half of the pc's was dwindling their thumbs not doing anything.
Until, unintentionally, they came at the Ebon Aspect.. nearly all resources depleted, including spells, healings etc.. not much hp.
The druid got ripped to pieces literary. The silence and terror that filled the room. (I wasn't enjoying it, mind you, I found it terrible as a DM.) First PC dead.. more to follow. The player of the cleric (I believe the only tactically sound mind then) was mumbling 'total party kill' 'total party kill'..
Shortly said, they came up with a plan, retreated in a nip of time, only justly getting everyone to safety.
After that, battles were planned out, people buffed and such.
To my group it was a wake up call.
_edit_ Though the group composure was different, they're heavy on fighter types too. Ouch. I hope that doesn't mean too much trouble further along.
I dont want to fudge every encounter !!! Aside from TPK and then ,hopefully, them wanting to continue with new characters, what can I do ??
We use action points in a similar way that fate points are used in Warhammer. You start out with 5 at first level and they scale up as you level up. To stablize it takes 1 action point and to "cheat death" it takes another. If you use an action point to cheat death you are effectively out of the combat encounter; you cannot be healed until the combat is complete. ("Good grief, we thought you were dead!")
This allows the group to have several characters drop in the party. The only real danger is a TPK. If the players are losing characters every encounter then it's a wake up call to try other tactics (or for you to scale things down). It's also a measurement of their success. It makes the use of action points for other things (skills, to hit, etc) a huge reward if you do well at avoiding death.
My group TPKed during their raid on Sodden Hold. It was a streak of bad luck on them all and one giant mistake their ranger made, leading to their ultimate doom.
I have created a small side-quest, based upon some evidence the former party managed to pull and hand to Eliagos before their departure to Sodden Hold.
Upon a sudden silence on the party's part, Eliagos sends summons to former allies of his (I asked every player to come up with their own reasons for why would Eliagos contact them - helped alot with the roleplaying part too) and asked them a favour.
The side quest dealt with finding out about the background of Telakin (Is that his name?) and how deep the corruption infiltrated the city ranks.
Things led the new party back to Sodden Hold and continued the AoWAD.
When they brought back more evidence of corruption and transaction of the said scrolls, Eliagos told them about the deeds of the former party, picking their interest in the AoW mysteries once again.
I hope this helps you out.
Feel free to fudge encounters if you'd rather avoid TPK. Go ahead and do that.
I also think you might have insisted upon certain classes in the party. Rogues are almost a must in Age of Worms. Almost. They're very helpful. The party should be well-rounded, not consist of front-line brawlers. You can't plow through Age of Worms, and Hall of Harsh Reflections is a good example of that.
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It's kind of ironic, as a player I love character death because I love making new characters all the time (before Sylnae closed my profile had a good score of characters, some of which I'd never play or played only in one session).
As a DM though I hate it, my games are all story-driven games, and it's hard to keep a continuous story when you have a TPK or have cycled out all the original characters (as has happened in my SCAP game) and with the APs it's even worse because the adventures later on generally assume it's dealing with the original group from the first adventure. I've found ways around it, but it's still a pain in the arse.
I'm equally thankful you killed those characters, Sebastian. That's a really touching story. I hope we can get a few more testimonials like this about DM's who bravely lay the smack down on their overly sensitive players on this thread.This is crazy. Please WASTE ALL OF THEM during the next game session. If your players choice of classes and decisions during the game merit serious consequences, then let the natural consequences happen. You are only delaying the inevitable by letting them off the hook each week. There are WAY TOO MANY players who have this allergic reaction to character death. If your players seriously can't handle character death and lose enthusiasm for the game if you don't bail them out, then I would suggest that they may have some personal problems that are beyond your ability to help... or ought to be playing some other game than d&d... like maybe Chutes & LaddersI was playing in a group for a while where the primary "storyteller" (it was a Werewolf/Mage campaign) ran a horrible game where she would not kill off the PC's no matter what. It got to the point where my character was threatened at gunpoint and I told the guy to piss off because I knew (i) I couldn't hurt him and (ii) I wouldn't die (and I didn't).
Anyway, once 3e came out, I got behind the screen. The first thing I did was tell them I run a deadly game, I don't screw around. The first thing her husband did was go off on his own rather than working with the rest of the party. His character died and the two of them were so offended that they quit the campaign. I recruited two new players, one of them a first timer how turned out to be one of the best gamers I've ever known.
I can't say how thankful I am that I killed those characters.
I got rather misty eyed after reading your story. 'sniff' If you play with critical hits and don't fudge all the time deaths will occur. Stupid deaths should occur. Then again sound tactics and game play pay off as well