My six players are nearing the finale of Thirteen Cages. They've cleared out quite a bit of the dungeon (killed Gau, Freija, MoltenWing, Tiirok, Nulin, Ardeth, ...).
I'm planning to have the rest of the Cagewrights (Dyrryd, Shebeleth, Thearyn and some apprentices) make their last stand around the Tree of Shackled Souls. The players know there are still some Cagewrights in the complex, but they (especially the sorcerer) are getting low on spells. Now they're thinking about using the Wish from the Altar to Adimarchus to wish for 'a night's rest' or 'give the sorcerer back all his spells'.
I told them I'd think about it, but that I probably wouldn't grant it. To me it feels like it takes away all pressure and urgency there is. Did anyone else's players try this? What did you do? Would you grant it?
I think they could handle it, but it wouldn't be easy.
I don't think my players realize they could go to the Astral to rest. If I'm correct, there's no natural healing in the Astral, but you can rest there and regain spells? Now in this case they'd have to leave the dungeon because of the Dimensional Lock from the Tree. Then they'd have to plane shift to the astral, rest, plane shift back and get back to the dungeon itself (teleporting). So that would cost some time and some resources. And they might get attacked in the Astral.
This is the first time we've gone to these levels and I must say it's quite confusing sometimes. Still learning every day. I've also noticed that 6 characters at higher levels van be quite difficult to challenge. I'm starting to wonder how crazy it gets when they're level 20.
You not going to let them use it just because it will make it too easy, not for a rules reason? That's just screwing your players. If they want to blow a wish for that, let them.
Keep in mind the PCs could pop over to the Astral Plane where there is no time, rest for "5 days", make magic items, and pop back with no time elapsed ...
Thats what I thought too (the module seems to imply it in the text) and thats what I allowed my players to do. But elsewhere on these boards, some one told me that time continues to pass on the material plane while you are on the astral plane. The DMG seems to support this as well.
You not going to let them use it just because it will make it too easy, not for a rules reason? That's just screwing your players. If they want to blow a wish for that, let them.
Well, this is going to be the last session before we go on a 6-months break. It's sort of the 'first' finale to the campaign. If it's too easy, they just won't be satisfied. For instance: Vhalantru went down very quickly. Probably because he was alone and there were 6 of them. After the battle they all said that it was too easy and unsatisfactory. Knowing my players, they want a good fight that balances on the edge where they come away victorious but severely wounded. So I don't think it's screwing my players. In the end it's up to me to let them have a good time.
Besides, I don't find the rules to be clear on this point at all. As far as I can see it falls into the 'things you can wish for but won't necessarily get' category. That's why I wanted to know what other people would do.
Thats what I thought too (the module seems to imply it in the text) and thats what I allowed my players to do. But elsewhere on these boards, some one told me that time continues to pass on the material plane while you are on the astral plane. The DMG seems to support this as well.
I thought I read somewhere that time doesn't pass there, but that all time you spend there catches up with you when you leave the Astral. So, if you go in there for 5 days of rest and then come back, your body becomes 5 days older, but no time has passed on the material. Or is that wrong too?
Creative Director
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Time is constant across the multiverse, as far as I understand it, in 3rd edition. If you spend 5 days on the Astral Plane, you don't grow older. Once you leave the Astral Plane, though, you find that time hasn't "stood still" for you; you emerge into the Material Plane 5 days into the future from when you left for the Astral Plane. Hunger and thirst immediately set in if you haven't been eating, etc. At least, that's how I understand things. In earlier editions of the game (including 3.0, I believe), you could indeed go to the Astral Plane to rest, create magic items, and whatnot in the middle of a battle.
As for this use of wish, to "recharge" the party's resources... I'd certainly allow it in my campaign. In fact, I added the whole wish bit in there partially to allow for such an event; "Thirteen Cages" can wreak havoc on the PCs' resources, especailly since it happens so fast on the heals of "Foundation of Flame." I'd say if you're going to have the PCs fight multiple cagewrights in the last encounter, allowing them to wish for a "recharge" is a good idea.
Keep in mind the PCs could pop over to the Astral Plane where there is no time, rest for "5 days", make magic items, and pop back with no time elapsed ...Thats what I thought too (the module seems to imply it in the text) and thats what I allowed my players to do. But elsewhere on these boards, some one told me that time continues to pass on the material plane while you are on the astral plane. The DMG seems to support this as well.
I dont believe time passes on the material plane when you are on Occipitus however.
Now they're thinking about using the Wish from the Altar to Adimarchus to wish for 'a night's rest' or 'give the sorcerer back all his spells'.
My players are right now in a very similar situation and they had the very same idea about using the Wish to ask for "the whole effects of a night's rest" (IMC this would include giving out XPs, so gaining a level to all of them).
However, while discussing the issue between them, a player said that while that Wish would work for the sorcerer, it wouldn't for the druid and the cleric, since they'd still have to pray at a precise moment in time to regain their spells.
I'd be willing to let them "recharge" themselves, since they are very low on spells (sorcerer depleted, druid almost depleted, cleric a few remaining) and they have still a lot of opponents to defeat (they managed to kill Gau, Moltenwing, Dechrini and Ti'irek, and are chasing Freija after battling her two times).
So, what they want is rest, pray, obtain new levels and prepare/gain back their spells. Would you grant such a Wish? How would you express it?
Thanks,
Marco
"The whole effects of a knight's rest?"
Okaaaay, fine, you're fully rested, not exhausted nor fatigued, but since a knight doesn't cast spells, no spells are regained.
"The whole effects of a Night's rest?"
Which Night? PALE Night? What kind of rest might that be?!?
It comes down to this: Will it be a TPK fo' sho' if you DON'T grant the wish?
If they want memorable, satisfactory and scrappy, I'd say don't grant that wish. Make them dig deep into those one use items. Make a depleted sorcerer flank with a staff so the rogue can get that sneak attack. Push them out of their comfort zones.
Those are the fights that players remember. If they're fully rested, they'll probably walk through it without much difficulty because they can nail all the Cagewrights with their best spells. It'll end up with, "So, what do we get for loot?"
As long as one survives, they can then wish the cleric back and so on and so forth.
What's with all of the resurrecting old threads recently?
If they want memorable, satisfactory and scrappy, I'd say don't grant that wish. Make them dig deep into those one use items. Make a depleted sorcerer flank with a staff so the rogue can get that sneak attack. Push them out of their comfort zones.
Those are the fights that players remember.
Well, they strived to formulate an all-inclusive wish, but after a lot of debating they failed quite miserably. They managed to get their rest and XPs, but no spell was gained.
So here they are, completely spell-less (actually the druid and the sorcerer are completely spell-less, while the cleric still have a few, but he's been made Insane by Freija and mummy-tied by his comrades) and somewhat low in HPs also, pondering what to do now (which includes leaving the place and Plane Shifting to Occipitus).
However, I had already set my mind to end the AP just after Thirteen Cages, so this is how it'll go, for god or bad. I will encourage them not to give up the quest, and try their best to save Cauldron once again. I hope this will lead to some memorable moments as you say.
If they're fully rested, they'll probably walk through it without much difficulty because they can nail all the Cagewrights with their best spells. It'll end up with, "So, what do we get for loot?"
Well... they probably won't either :) They started this mission full-powered, nevertheless they had quite a difficult time until now, and they still have to fight the toughest enemies.
If they will embrace the challenge, though, I could consider being somewhat more lenient than usual ;)
Thanks for your contribution!
Ciao
Marco
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** begin rant about gamers of today...
I have been rping since 1982. I have seen most things. I have noted, with the proliferation of computer games, that players seem to want to be at full strength going into every fight. I hate that. You have to put some kind of timer, or they want to rest and recharge after 2-3 big fights. I blame it on computer games, where there is not a serious drawback to camping. I don't know if it's just me, but the challenge is the most fun, not just mopping the floor with every fight. The most memorable ones are where half the group is down or dead, and you are a mage out of spells trying to figure out what the heck to do. Then you swing your sword, which you probably hit with on a 19 or 20, roll the 20, then get uber lucky and confirm, to save the day...Or where the only 2 things left are you and the other caster, and both of you are out of juice..it's a slap fight to the death...or if you are sweating because you are at +2 and keep failing your stabilize rolls hoping that the Paladin hurries up and finishes off that "damned" Marilith...Instead, it seems like alot of guys just want to roll through everything without breaking a sweat. That is why our Sunday night group has been intact for 25 years...As GM you may have to fudge a roll here or there to save the TPK, but as long as you leave 1 guy standing, it's cool..
**end of rant***
** begin rant about gamers of today...
I have been rping since 1982. I have seen most things. I have noted, with the proliferation of computer games, that players seem to want to be at full strength going into every fight. I hate that. You have to put some kind of timer, or they want to rest and recharge after 2-3 big fights. I blame it on computer games, where there is not a serious drawback to camping. I don't know if it's just me, but the challenge is the most fun, not just mopping the floor with every fight. The most memorable ones are where half the group is down or dead, and you are a mage out of spells trying to figure out what the heck to do. Then you swing your sword, which you probably hit with on a 19 or 20, roll the 20, then get uber lucky and confirm, to save the day...Or where the only 2 things left are you and the other caster, and both of you are out of juice..it's a slap fight to the death...or if you are sweating because you are at +2 and keep failing your stabilize rolls hoping that the Paladin hurries up and finishes off that "damned" Marilith...Instead, it seems like alot of guys just want to roll through everything without breaking a sweat. That is why our Sunday night group has been intact for 25 years...As GM you may have to fudge a roll here or there to save the TPK, but as long as you leave 1 guy standing, it's cool..
**end of rant***
You sound like you have been on a very similar gaming path to my own with very a similar stance. Sounds like you have the old man rant going here ;) I agree though, part of the excitment of the game is the challenge of surviving which is also one the biggest reasons I love Dming and playing lower level games. One of my favourite games I ever Dmed was when the party began as street urchins without any skills, powers or even money. They fought to survive every day and not all did. They loved it because they needed to rely on their nouse and luck rather than powers. What's the fun in achieving something if you didn't need to fight for it?
Delvesdeep
Then of course there is a new gamer who is shocked and appalled the first time his PC takes damage!
We have one of those guys in our group, he has been a player for decades like the rest of us but he has the name Crit-me-to-hit-me for a reason.
Even when the DM gets the 20 needed to hit him following it up with a second 20 is very rare but entertaining when it happens.Our DM always rolls in front of us so that we as players know he's not being vicious just fair.