Some of my PCs were recently given land grants and titles. They are now trying to determine how much revenue their lands will generate. I couldn't find much info on this in the dmg, so I had to come up with some stuff on my own. Let me know if you think this is reasonable or what you do in your games around this issue.
The core rule books say that a laborer earns 1sp per day. Therefore in 1 month that is about 3gp. I'm assuming that is what he takes home after taxes. If his income tax is 10% then his lord would make 3sp off of his labor each month. Therefore your monthly income as a lord can be determined by multiplying 3sp by the population of your holdings. Of course you in turn would owe 10% to your leige. This is simplistic and doesn't account for craftsman and merchants who make more money nor the fact that there is a chunk of the population that isn't able to work (ie too old, too young, at home with kids, disability etc...). However given that the lands my PCs have are relatively rurual and poor there aren't many wealthy merchants or craftsmen to worry about. Currently I have one party member who has about 1000 people on her lands. So she is earning 300gp each month in taxes. Does this seem reasonable? She's an 11th level PC, so it isn't a huge ammount for such a character, and she has lots of buidling projects she wishes to undertake, which will go back into her lands as opposed to purchasing magic items and equipment.
I bought the following book two years ago and it's been an invaluable resource, not just for the question you asked here, but for so much else. I highly recommend it, especially since a $10 PDF is now available.
Based on some of the calculations I've made in my campaign using this book and using the example calculation in the book, a manor of 360 citizens generates an income of 9700 gp per year as tax income for the lord. The lord's expenses are about 5000gp per year (to pay staff, upkeep the infrastructure, etc).
So, 300gp a month is a bit light if you use this book, especially for 1000 citizens, but if you choose not to get into more detail, it's probably okay, especially if you want to strip the party of some excess wealth.
Thanks for the recommendation. I've been thinking a bit more, and I realized that my formula doesn't factor in that the population are probably mostly serfs, which means they're renters. If rent takes up about 25-30% of one's income then I should be multiplying by 25% not 10%. The 10% income tax would more likely go straight to the crown, and the landlord would take the rent and then maybe forward 10% of his rental income to his lord. That would mean that for a population of 1000 she would be collecting 750gp per month in rent and then forwarding 75gp of that to the count, and collecting an additional 300gp in taxes that would go to the monarchy.
I bought the following book two years ago and it's been an invaluable resource, not just for the question you asked here, but for so much else. I highly recommend it, especially since a $10 PDF is now available.
Based on some of the calculations I've made in my campaign using this book and using the example calculation in the book, a manor of 360 citizens generates an income of 9700 gp per year as tax income for the lord. The lord's expenses are about 5000gp per year (to pay staff, upkeep the infrastructure, etc).
So, 300gp a month is a bit light if you use this book, especially for 1000 citizens, but if you choose not to get into more detail, it's probably okay, especially if you want to strip the party of some excess wealth.
The other problem with your calculations are that they are only income. Your players really want to know their net monthly income (Total Income minue Total Expenses). At this point your calculations completely ignore the expenses column.
Does the PC have a castle or some other holding?
What are the expenses associated with upkeep?
What about staff and their salaries?
What are the characters responsibilities back to the people?
Law enforcement?
How many employees / Salaries?
Cost of Jail / Upkeep?
Food / Health needs of Prisoners?
Tax Collectors (won't get any of that money owed)?
Salaries?
Office Space?
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
Once you have all of that you can start then subtracting this amount out from the total income to give a net monthly income.
I would not allow the character to get away with the benefits of holdings and escape the responsibilities there of.
This is when adventures can be spawned.
- Say the PC takes over his holding and it is being run poorly. There are too many tax collectors, or they are corrupt and skimming profits. How will the PC know unless he/she wants to be the one doing all the books. What will he/she do about it running innefficiently. Firing people is a TOUGH decision (one of the worst parts of my job as a manager).
- Most peasant types might not have the cash from their income. Instead they might have other things, like raw materials or crops to pay with. Will the PC take this? If not, what is the punishment.
- How harsh is the PC willing to be? A sick farmer can't make his payments, will the PC evict him? What will the PC do if his tax collectors and law enforcers are running things harsher than he/she would like (guess what? The buck stops at the PC and it all reflects on him/her)
Monsters threatening the village? Guess who is being 'paid' in advance to take care of that... the PC.
Anyway... all stuff you need to think about, not just what the PCs actual income is.
Sean Mahoney
In my campaigns towns were a money pit, not a wealth generator. The players slew dragons and looted their hoards to grow the town, not tax some decrepit mill or mine (and they probably had a greater sense of self-satisfaction in being altrustic to their citizens rather than leeching from them). I found the players would be happy if they were gaining some other benefit, and viewed a town as an investment in their campaigning (when looking at bonuses gained from fame and notoriety, or as a venue to gain easy access to hosted guilds).
Are the players specifically looking for the town to be a gold mine to fund bonus items? I'd just assign an arbitrary number thats just a bit under what they need to encourage them to find ways to either improve the town or find alternate revenue streams, so they have a reason to play with the game piece you're letting them have. If the town is making them more than enough money to skim off of, I'd hit it with a drought or fever. Maybe a religious pilgrimage that alot of people decide to go off on at once due to some powerful portent.
Well they don't really have any stronghold, as of yet. They are in the process of starting to build one, so there will certainly be expenses once they figure out what exactly they want to build for the stronghold. Basically the one PC is trying to rebuild a fallen knighthood that she has been made grandmaster of. She has managed to recruit about 20 odd knights and she has been given a land grant to establish a base of operations on, as well as manage as a lord, but as of yet the land has no real castle or keep on it. Just a handful of small thorps and hamlets. Thus my calculations do ingnore the expenses, because my players are still determining how hight those will be. She has a keep to build, knights to equip, horses to fee, staff to employee etc... But in the mean time those lowly serfs are still getting up and working away each day, so she still is generating an income from their labor/rents. Mostly she wants to get a sense of the revenue from this, so that she knows how much extra money she can use to help build up her knights/keep etc...
The other problem with your calculations are that they are only income. Your players really want to know their net monthly income (Total Income minue Total Expenses). At this point your calculations completely ignore the expenses column.
Does the PC have a castle or some other holding?
What are the expenses associated with upkeep?
What about staff and their salaries?
What are the characters responsibilities back to the people?
Law enforcement?
How many employees / Salaries?
Cost of Jail / Upkeep?
Food / Health needs of Prisoners?
Tax Collectors (won't get any of that money owed)?
Salaries?
Office Space?
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.Once you have all of that you can start then subtracting this amount out from the total income to give a net monthly income.
I would not allow the character to get away with the benefits of holdings and escape the responsibilities there of.
This is when adventures can be spawned.
- Say the PC takes over his holding and it is being run poorly. There are too many tax collectors, or they are corrupt and skimming profits. How will the PC know unless he/she wants to be the one doing all the books. What will he/she do about it running innefficiently. Firing people is a TOUGH decision (one of the worst parts of my job as a manager).
- Most peasant types might not have the cash from their income. Instead they might have other things, like raw materials or crops to pay with. Will the PC take this? If not, what is the punishment.
- How harsh is the PC willing to be? A sick farmer can't make his payments, will the PC evict him? What will the PC do if his tax collectors and law enforcers are running things harsher than he/she would like (guess what? The buck stops at the PC and it all reflects on him/her)
Monsters threatening the village? Guess who is being 'paid' in advance to take care of that... the PC.
Anyway... all stuff you need to think about, not just what the PCs actual income is.
Sean Mahoney
Well, rather than asking what the PCs would mathematically get, we could look at how much you want them to get for free. Do you want them to be able to restore the order with a little effort, or a lot? You can "fudge the dice" any which way you want as DM if any player tries to "negotiate" more money out of a scenario you've defined.
The math you started out with is a valid assumption insofar as that's probably what medieval lords expected and recieved. Who knows if the serfs even have actual coins in their pocket by the end of the day, though. Probably while they're working the feilds a wandering burglar would "break" into their hovels and take all their coins, if any.
But, what if the math used to define what the PCs make eventually put them into a position where money is a non-issue? I'd fear the players trying to "bind" you into the expectations a calculation would set. Expectations are always harsh, some people get upset when they aren't met.
I recommend that you look into this...
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=685&products_id =5232&
This pdf is called "The Manor" and was created by "The Forge Studios" (the same folks that worked on Ptolus for Monte Cook). It's very DM friendly product (not a lot of hard and overly "realistic" computations based on old world Europe). It provides lotsa art and maps (exterior, interior, isometric) of a generic manor and township. If you have a PC who becomes a land owner then this can solve a lot of problems. It discusses running a manor with all of the burdens and rewards including costs. I highly recommend this for every DM's library.
The only potential drawback is that the township isn't populated, but that is intentional.
Oh, yeah! It's written by folks actually living in Europe with access to the real places from which they drew their inspiration.
Cheers