Metamagic Spell Trigger + Sudden Metamagic = ???


3.5/d20/OGL

Contributor

Hey guys -I'm new to the board here. Not really satisfied with the lack of responses I've had with a serious rules question on the Wizards board and I heard there were more serious players here, so I hope you can help me out.

My question involes the use of the new Metamagic Spell Trigger (MST) feat from the Complete Mage and the possible application of Sudden Metamagic feats in the use of MST:

METAMAGIC SPELL TRIGGER: You can apply any metamagic feat you know to a spell you cast from a spell trigger item like a staff or wand. You expend one extra charge for each spell level increase the metamagic feat imposes. However, you can't apply the feats if it will take the spell beyond 9th-level.

So, what if my character has Sudden Maximize, but not the regular version? Does the Sudden version qualify for use with MST, using up appropriate charges (+3) like the true version of Maximize Spell would? Could you do it multiple times daily, since you are expending the wand's charges and not your personal energies?

I'm not a munchkin trying to find a loophole here. I just want more clarification on how it works. I'm designing a wand-wielding Mystic Theurge and the Sudden versions of the feats work better since the MT suffers a decrease in higher-level spell acess due to multi-classing. To be able to use them with this feat would be a great boon for this character design...

What does everyone think?

Fleece


Hi there, Fleece. Good to have you here.

In regards to your question... By a literal reading of the combination, I believe that you would expend no extra charges. However, augmenting a spell cast from an item in this way would count against your uses per day of the Sudden metamagic feat.

TK


I agree with Thanis. You'd be able to Maximize a single spell cast from a spell trigger item per day, with no increase in the number of charges expended. That would count as your one use of the Sudden Maximize feat.


somehow, i see this feat being errataed in fairly short order to account for the 'sudden' feats, although it is beyond me how they managed to miss the potential of sudden metamagic with the metamagic spell trigger feat. as far as i can tell, thanis and vegepygmy have it right, though; either you use sudden metamagic on a spell you cast, or on a spell trigger item, once per day.

tog

edit: thinking on this, is 'errataed' even a word? -tog

Liberty's Edge

It would be "corrected."
Errata just means "errors." It is a printing term, derived from Latin. You can also find "corrigenda" used, which is "stuff to be corrected."

And I still have a bigger issue with Rapid Metamagic vs. Accelerate Metamagic from Races of the Dragon.
And don't get me started on Power Word Pain!
:)


Adding my agreement with Thanis and Vegepygmy. In order to apply a sudden metamagic feat like this, you would have to expend your daily use of the feat, but there would be no increase in charges lost.


I was initially going to disagree; I was going to say that using this combination would allow for one use per day one the wand or other spell trigger item, with no increase in charges spent, and one use per day on an actual spell. I wasn't seeing why everyone else was saying it count against your daily limit regarding using the metamagic on actual spells. Then it occured to me that no other metamagics actually have a use limit, and thus it made sense. Just posting this hear for clarity's sake for others who might still be pondering the situation.


Samuel Weiss wrote:

It would be "corrected."

Errata just means "errors." It is a printing term, derived from Latin. You can also find "corrigenda" used, which is "stuff to be corrected."

i guess im just used to seeing 'errata' used in such a way as to appear as a verb. thanks for the etymology lesson, sam, that was pretty interesting.

tog

Liberty's Edge

Samuel Weiss wrote:

It would be "corrected."

Errata just means "errors." It is a printing term, derived from Latin. You can also find "corrigenda" used, which is "stuff to be corrected."

<pedantic editor>To be fair, there is a long history of verbing nouns in English. And the history of complaining about verbed nouns (and nouned verbs) is probably about three minutes shorter. While verbs like "to verb" are often jarring to readers, there is a difference in sense between "corrected" and "errataed", the latter being more specific.

If it bothers you, though, you can get pretty much the same sense (at the cost of extra words, but without offending as many people) with something like "will be included in the official errata".</pedantic editor>

Liberty's Edge

Ack! Pedantry war!
:-P

It doesn't particularly bother me, I was just filling it what could be more satisfying grammatically.
"Here is the errata I discovered in your book. I would like them all corrected."
Otherwise grammar is just something for your editor to fix and other readers/teachers/editors to complain about.
0:-)


Samuel Weiss wrote:

Ack! Pedantry war!

um, sorry to start the the pedantic wars... er, i didnt intend to set it off(?)

tog (must have shot the archfiend ferdinand or something...)

Liberty's Edge

Archfiends are known for their involvement in grammar. I hear the Duke of Irregular Declensions will appear in FC II.

(And just in case . . .
I was kidding. Doug is right, there is a lot of history on the whole thing, and for every short answer provided like mine, there is always a longer answer lurking in the shadows.)

Liberty's Edge

Samuel Weiss wrote:

(And just in case . . .

I was kidding. Doug is right, there is a lot of history on the whole thing, and for every short answer provided like mine, there is always a longer answer lurking in the shadows.)

Yeah, don't let's get started on dialect and register and idiolect. (It's entirely possible for the same sentence to switch from correct to incorrect with a register shift, for instance. Linguistics is nowhere near as deterministic as many HS English teachers would have you think.)


... Which is just more support for my long held theory that "English" is a long-running practical joke cooked up by Anglo-Saxon pig farmers centuries ago; their spirits now laugh that we all "fell for it."

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