OK, I thought of a character concept the other day that I would really like to try out - an ascetic hermit who gains powers over his own body and nature through meditating under waterfalls, fasting, etc. The Monk would of course be an obvious choice for such a character, and I want him to have some unarmed combat ability, but I also want him to have more dramatic nature-based powers. What I want is a sort of Monk of nature. A Monk/Druid.
I am not usually overly concerned with power-builds, but I am having trouble trying to make a Monk/Druid that wouldn't be, well, average. It seems like alot of the higher abilities of each class overlap, and Monks especially don't get much at the early levels that would justify losing several levels of Druid spell-casting. Plus there's the whole monk multiclass restriction thing to tangle with. No matter how I balance the classes (assuming I have 5 levels to work with) I seem to end up with a PC that is not really good at anything in particular, just a weak Druid or Monk with some quirky side abilities. Is it just a bad idea to multiclass these two particular classes?
I thought of just being a straight Druid and spending feats on unarmed combat, but then I don't get the other things that fit well with the character concept, like the monk's AC and speed bonuses. And a straight Monk is not what I want at all.
At this stage the Arcane Fist (modified to be divine based, as shown in Complete Arcane) looks cool, but I try to avoid PrClasses and splat books if I possibly can - it feels overly complex to me.
Help me o Lords - How can I balance Monk and Druid classes to make a PC that will actually kick at least a little bit of ass?
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I just want to say I'm thinking about it.
It's weird--when I hear of combining monk with druid, I start thinking about Daoist Immortals. As if mixing an Asian flavored character with a Celtic flavored character would be some kind of flavor faux pas. I'm not saying it is, it just gears me in that direction for some reason.
Maybe if I can get beyond this brain fart I can be of some help.
Disclaimer: This is all off the top of my head. I have no idea how well this is balanced.
Take the monk, remove flurry of blows, slow fall, and the speed bonus.
Add in nature sense, wild empathy, woodland stride, wild shape, and venom immunity.
Weapon proficiencies are as monk, plus natural weapons of assumed forms.
Add sylvan as a language option
Add Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (nature), and Survival as class skills. Remove Diplomacy, Knowledge (arcana), and Perform.
What do you mean by splat books? If you mean the various accessory books introduced then you are in for a rough time. These books contain the sorts of feats and abilities that make this combination work. Perhaps you should be looking in that direction. That being said druid and monk are a poor multiclass combination. Some classes just don't work that well together and druid/monk is right up there with the other badly performing multiclass combinations. I wouldn't even try, but that's just me.
Of course you could try Thanis's move, but that might not be your cup-o-tea.
Disclaimer: This is all off the top of my head. I have no idea how well this is balanced.
Take the monk, remove flurry of blows, slow fall, and the speed bonus.
Add in nature sense, wild empathy, woodland stride, wild shape, and venom immunity.
Weapon proficiencies are as monk, plus natural weapons of assumed forms.
Add sylvan as a language option
Add Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (nature), and Survival as class skills. Remove Diplomacy, Knowledge (arcana), and Perform.
Hmm, how would monk's unarmed strike damage mesh with wild shape's natural weapons? I would think if they kept the monk's unarmed damage progression that might be a little excessive, but if they didn't keep it there wouldn't be too much motivation to use it.
Maybe instead of wild shape they just get access to druid spells (on a limited basis- say, up to 6th level) and keep the speed bonus. Thoughts?
Tanks for the comments guys. It's a tricky one, and it's frustrating because I know exactly what sort of character I'm thiking of.
I just want to say I'm thinking about it.
It's weird--when I hear of combining monk with druid, I start thinking about Daoist Immortals.
That's what I was thinking of too. An asectic martial artist with a bigass wolf following him around who can control nature.
Thanis- Could be cool, I'll have to check with my DM to see if he'll let me modify the Monk to be something like this. though I really do want spells as well. It's quite exciting actually, I haven't played for ages. I've been DM for so long, I'm really looking forward to relaxing and only playing one guy!
Phil- I think you're right. There's just no avoiding sourcebooks if you have a wierd PC idea, and I suppose that's cool. The Arcane Fist PrC (modified to be divine as I said) would allow him to deliver touch spells with unarmed attacks, infuse his unarmed attacks with magic, gain new Druid spells every second level, and add his Arcane Fist levels to his Monk levels when determining unarmed attack, AC bonus and speed bonus. Plus it overrides the multi-classing restriction and allows him to freely move between Arcane Fist, Monk and Druid.
I was just hoping that there may be a cool way to build him without having to go Monk 1/Druid 4/Arcane Fist 1. Level 6 is a long time to wait to grow into your character concept.
Padan- Yeah, I'd rather have spells than Wild Shape. I'm thinking more a miracle working martial arts hermit than a guy who can turn into a bear. there's something definitely very human(oid) about the monk archetype that I don't want to lose.
There is a Sacred Fist PrC in Complete Divine that works almost exactly the same way as Arcane Fist does, if I remember correctly. You might want to have a look at that.
Why not just take unarmed strike with a druid? It's aesthetic can cast spells and lay down a whoopin. Not as good as a monk but can have the same feel. When this martial artist adopts an animal based fighting stance he takes it to a whole new level.
Just my two.
(Note: with this character concept tiger style will almost always defeat crane style)
It might help if you could list the abilities you consider most important from the two classes for your character. From your post I'd say Improved Unarmed Strike, Animal Companion, some spellcasting and maybe one or two other features. Correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. In this case a class thought occurs: take a look at the OA shaman class (and updates in Dragon 318): it has Animal Companion, higher than normal unarmed attack damage (though not as high as a Monk's), spellcasting although it's a Cleric Druid list mixture rather than pure Druid but it could be adjusted with little trouble, some bonus combat feats (4, 8, etc.), domains, turning/rebuking, and Divine Grace, plus the ability to see ethereal/incorporeal as easily as they can see a regular creature. Some of these features could be traded for certain Monk and Druid abilities with DM approval. The basic class might not change all that much, although it would be sensible to adjust the class skills. Just offering some thoughts.
I introduced an NPC monk/druid as a major villain for a mid-level adventure; he was a big hit, and scared the daylights out of the players (especially when I gave him a fiendish servant instead of wild shape). Later, as a player I tried a monk/druid and found it, as you described, a non-competitive combo. Sacred Fist was the only way to salvage it, "splat" or no. I examined Spirit Shaman, Shugenja, etc. and found them wanting also... let me know if you get a cool build; it's one of my favorite concepts, but seems doomed to D&D mediocrity, as you've discovered.
Steven - I suppose I want unarmed combat abilities, the ability ot add my WIS bonus to my AC, and all the neat things relating to body mastery like Trackless Step, immunity to poisons, disease, etc, plus Druid spells. I suppose I really only need 1 level of Monk to get what I want and then I could just go Druid, as the Druid has many of the same body mastery type abilities, just with different names.
Erik- that's disheartening to hear! Oh well, I guess I'll go with Sacred Fist then.
I've got a bit of spare cash today so I might go out and pick up Complete Divine this afternoon. By the way, are there any spellcasting classes that multi-class well with the Monk? Perhaps I could build something like my concept using another class, with appropriate spell choices.
Pity the Wu Jen has to be non-lawful and the Monk has to be lawful, as a Wu Jen/Monk would be my second choice for a Daoist Hermit-in-training. Perhaps he could start as a Monk, and the lonely meditative practices he undergoes in the wild could give him a change of heart...
I think maybe my character concept just falls through the cracks game-wise :(
monk builds well with sor, although that isnt what youre looking for. i suppose it would probably build well with the favored soul, as well, but again, not what youre looking for.
however, there may be something said for the all druid improved unarmed strike build, since with tome of battle, there is a feat called superior unarmed strike, which allows anyone who has this feat to have a scaling unarmed strike, similar to the monks class ability. there is a discussion of it elsewhere on the boards, as it relates to a monks belt and improved natural attack.
the oa shaman is also a route to go (especially with superior unarmed strike), though they also may not be what youre looking for, either. but hey, you can always check it out.
tog
Its kinda funny you mention this, because in my homebrew campaign, Clerics of Buddha (Balance, Mind, Nature) are allowed to freely multiclass as Monks. This does make for an interesting Sacred Fist build, but I find the PrC too restrictive in the end.
I was even talking with one of the players who was considering the class, and discussing the possibility of trading out some of the Cleric class features (Turn Undead, spontaneous casting)for him being able to have an animal companion. In the end he decided to raise his slain character so the discussion petered, but I liked the character concept very well.
I also generally allow the two feats from Eberron that allow multiclassing for Monks and Paladins, the names of which I do not recall at the moment.
What I want is a sort of Monk of nature. A Monk/Druid.
(flipping through Dragon collection) It looks like Dragon may have already answered your call. If you have access to issue 324 (or can pick it up) in the Class Acts section they have an alternate Monk class called the Wild Monk. Essentially the Wild Monk gives up the Monk's bonus feats for access to resist nature's lure and wild shape. They can also freely multi-class with the druid class (if you wanted to gain spellcasting, and their wild-shape levels stack). I have never tried it myself, but it definitely looks playable without having to venture outside of the core books (aside from the Dragon that is).
Anyway, its an October issue so you know its full of other goodies as well (including an awesome article on H.P. Lovecraft and D&D). Sorry for the digression...
This is the Unearthed Arcana comment on the Druid (in Variant Character Classes):
Druid
The druid might choose to give up her wild shape ability in exchange for becoming a swift and deadly hunter.
Gain: Bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (as monk, including Wisdom bonus to AC), fast movement (as monk), favored enemy (as ranger), swift tracker (as ranger), Track feat (as ranger).
Lose: Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape (all versions).
I was actually thinking of adding the UA variant druid, but delveg beat me to it. It should not be too much of a problem if you decide to go the OA shaman route to swap out some class features for the ones you want say one or both starting domains for Wis bonus to AC, Spirit Sight for Trackless Step. Immunities could be obtained in place of one of the martial arts feats either at 4th or 8th. The spell list could probably go either all cleric or all druid or stay as a mix of the two, as you see fit. I would be careful about the Sacred Fist PrC if you decide to go that route since they can't use weapons other than natural and unarmed strike, and become ex-Sacred Fists if they do. Not necessarily a huge problem, but if you encounter malevolent fey or aberrations, you may like having a way to deal with DR without stopping your chosen path. Just some ideas.
SP
Thanks for the great responses. I think I now have as much info as anyone in the world on options for building a Wild Monk!
The Superior Unarmed Strike feat sounds cool, as I want to be able to do more than 1d3 with my martial arts. Likewise, the OA Shaman is not really my cup of tea as he only has D6 for hit dice and I want a half-decent combatant. Maybe modifying a Druid is the best way to go. What would you guys say to a Druid who gains Monk AC (including adding of WIS bonus), Fast Movement, Monk unarmed damage (but not Flurry of Blows or increased attack rate), and maybe Evasion. And loses Wild Shape, and armour and shield proficiency
Balanced? Too Weak? Too strong?
I was actually thinking of adding the UA variant druid, but delveg beat me to it. It should not be too much of a problem if you decide to go the OA shaman route to swap out some class features for the ones you want say one or both starting domains for Wis bonus to AC, Spirit Sight for Trackless Step. Immunities could be obtained in place of one of the martial arts feats either at 4th or 8th. The spell list could probably go either all cleric or all druid or stay as a mix of the two, as you see fit. I would be careful about the Sacred Fist PrC if you decide to go that route since they can't use weapons other than natural and unarmed strike, and become ex-Sacred Fists if they do. Not necessarily a huge problem, but if you encounter malevolent fey or aberrations, you may like having a way to deal with DR without stopping your chosen path. Just some ideas.
SP
Not to mention you may want to throw something or use a ranged weapon at some point in your life. And if you start as sacred fist, its ten levels of sacred fist without deviation or lose all the benefits IIRC.
Giving a Druid the Monk's unarmed damage is tricky; I'd be tempted to cut the weapons list to compensate. (Perhaps eliminating ranged weapons-- or all weapons made made by someone other than the druid himself.) Otherwise, it sounds reasonable to me.
Good luck-- let us know if he's fun to play.
Does anyone have the info for Superior Unarmed Strike? ToB didn't catch my interest enough to warrant buying it but I am certainly intrigued by the feat, and if I go to a bookstore to try to copy it out of the book there, staffers'll probably come over and bug me to stop before I can copy all the info on the feat (this has happened before actually when I tried to record something from another book where I was only interested in one or two things). If there are any books you don't have that you aren't planning on buying but would like one or two bits of info from I'm sure we could agree to an exchange.
the description of superior unarmed strike is in a thread called "advice on a monk feat (tome of battle)." a good discussion of monks, certain feats, certain items, and how these particular things combine. might be a good thing to check out for everyone who has a stake in this thread.
tog