What Greyhawk Desparately Needs!


Dragon Magazine General Discussion

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chatdemon rich wrote:
Uncle wrote:
Ah Rich, I see you still havent lost your touch for quoting out of context nor your own penchant for stating the obvious.

And actually, now that I've thought about your unprovoked attack despite the fact I'm basically agreeing with what you're saying here...

I haven't lost my penchant for being rude either, jackass. Just like elsewhere, a few fanboys sitting around fawning over your every word wont stop me from pointing out what needs to be pointed out here:

Enough with the "I have conversations with Erik Mona, so I'm part of the driving force behind Greyhawk again and you guys have to kiss my ass." It's a pipe dream man, get over it.

Anyone whose followed the state of things closely for a few years can tell, the ONLY reason Mona and Jacobs are letting you play in their sandbox is because nostalgia sells.

Will you come make balloon animals at my next party?

Liberty's Edge

chatdemon rich wrote:
What's really funny here is, if certain people would actually read a GREYHAWK forum (wotc's or canonfire's perhaps) now and then, they'd see that I've never had anything negative to say about the Maure Castle series, and despite the obvious history of grudge between Rob and I, I've been free with the praise for his recent old school adventures...

Are you some famous guy? Are we supposed to care if you like Castle Maure or not? What are you like Blackwell of Dungeons and Dragons?

Oh, yeah. Better get over to canonfire to figure out what Rich thinks about Maure Castle. If he likes it, I can like it without being a fanboy.


Uncle: Totally. I wish more people defined their terms like you do. It kinda' frustrates me that "fluff" is the popular term for all the stuff I like in games. I'm with you. Personally I prefer the term flavor. Anyway thanks.

Chatdemon: Yikes! Wow it's amazing how quick people turn on someone in here after they get their feelings hurt. Never get mad in here or it's like blood in the water and formerly nice posters will suddenly turn savage.

That said, I really have to agree with you that your original post was really taken lots more harshly than it should have been and I think the scathing grumpiness that got shot back at you felt uncalled for.

Though I personally favor a more fleshed out setting 10 times out of 10, I grant that the looser layout of Greyhawk as presently written up is a lot better for your kind of game and certainly I would champion your right to play the game how you want. I'm just a detail hound.


I don't think this is necessarily When Forum Lads Attack!

Though Chatdemon's initial post seemed as harmless as any, clearly Rob didn't just launch at the guy for no reason. These two have some kind of history, as evidenced by Rob's ability to say something pissy and get Chatdemon to open up a can of pathological narcissism, which has got have something with why Rob is wary of anything he says to begin with. He must know it's just a matter of time before BOOM, niceties over. That overreaction proves ample excuse for court ordered distance. Now offended, Chatdemon decided to start throwing out that word fanboy... on a forum thread where many of us are enjoying reading what Rob has to say. So anyone who likes a guy he doesn't like is a beta dog? Not a recipe for earning 'beloved' on one's epitaph.

I may have once been a boy (Thanks surgery!), and I may like Rob and his work, and I may fan dance while watching The Lost Boys and just dreaming that it was really called The Fan Boys with Kuntzer Sutherland... but that doesn't make me a fanboy.

Okay... (deep breath)... time to get real and admit the truth (I can do it)... as a child I was kidnapped by Scott Baio fanboys who confused me for Chachi. They made me... they made me repeatedly act out an episode where I hit on Joanie and she rejects me. I guess I've become oversensitive to the term.


Heathansson wrote:


Are you some famous guy? Are we supposed to care if you like Castle Maure or not?

Apparently not, if you'd rather sit around and listen to so-called "professionals" take un called for shots at people who are AGREEING WITH HIM, more power to you.


The Jade wrote:


Will you come make balloon animals at my next party?

If you and the other little boys and girls really want a clown THAT bad, sure, I'll pencil you in.

I'll even bring a pony...


MAJOR EDIT: I made my Will save after spending an action point and removed the post I had previously put here.

Liberty's Edge

chatdemon rich wrote:
Heathansson wrote:


Are you some famous guy? Are we supposed to care if you like Castle Maure or not?
Apparently not, if you'd rather sit around and listen to so-called "professionals" take un called for shots at people who are AGREEING WITH HIM, more power to you.

If the rest of your demeaning tirade wasn't eternally etched in Cyberspace, right up above, maybe your little violin soliloqy would play better.


chatdemon rich wrote:
The Jade wrote:


Will you come make balloon animals at my next party?

If you and the other little boys and girls really want a clown THAT bad, sure, I'll pencil you in.

I'll even bring a pony...

See? This is it, right here. Little boys... you like to demean entire swathes of people and that's why you're so popular tonight. Anyone knicks you and you think you feel entitled to behead them and everyone they know in response. I guess you can't though so... maybe see someone about that. I'm not a psychiatrist but if you'd like to come lay on my couch I promise I'll listen and nod a lot.

Do you need a hug? Bring it in. Right here. Come on. Don't be proud.


The Jade wrote:


See? This is it, right here. Little boys... you like to demean entire swathes of people and that's why you're so popular tonight.

Still want me to bring balloons to your party?

_I_ demean people?

What's wrong, you want to play with the big boys but can't take it when it comes back to you?


Heathansson wrote:


If the rest of your demeaning tirade wasn't eternally etched in Cyberspace, right up above, maybe your little violin soliloqy would play better.

Im not seeking your sympathy moron. I simply will not sit back and let Rob run his petty little mouth when I was AGREEING WITH HIM.

Is that clear enough for you idiots? I WAS AGREEING WITH HIM.

G@& d$*n.

Liberty's Edge

chatdemon rich wrote:


I haven't lost my penchant for being rude either, jackass. Just like elsewhere, a few fanboys sitting around fawning over your every word wont stop me from pointing out what needs to be pointed out here:

Yes, you're right. I'm a moron, and you're more sinned against than sinning. It's okay for you to fling monkey scat at everyone and anyone because, to hell with us, we're all close-minded fanboys who would "ooh" and "aah" if Rob Kuntz, instead of making a room with an orc with a pie, made...get this...a room with a troglodyte with a pie.

You're right, you haven't lost your penchant for being rude.
I think you're wrong about who the jackass is though.

I think you owe everybody here an apology, for being the most asinine troll to show up on these usually civil boards in a long long time.

Liberty's Edge

Uncle wrote:

Grimcleaver:

Different interpretation of fluff. To me fluff is filler, nothing which has a right in the design to begin with: Padding. What you feel is fluff then, by your explanation, would be background and story-line flavor to me, and perhaps neccessary for expanding on the adventure/material in different ways.

So . . .

What exactly of the various new races and spells and deities and the like in the various Core books that have been "added" to Greyhawk have no right to be in the design to begin with?
What exactly of the material in the Greyhawk setting books after the folio, specifically From the Ashes and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, has no right to be part of the design to begin with?
I see little that is not background and story-line flavor in those, and much that is necessary for expanding on the adventure/material in different ways. So please, be more explicit. What specific material in those would you cite as not having a right to be in the design?


chatdemon rich wrote:
The Jade wrote:


See? This is it, right here. Little boys... you like to demean entire swathes of people and that's why you're so popular tonight.

Still want me to bring balloons to your party?

_I_ demean people?

What's wrong, you want to play with the big boys but can't take it when it comes back to you?

Do you actually think that you are the big boys? Are you serious? Because if what you're offering up is the best you've got I must be a part of the Paizo gigantic boys. As for not being able to take it, where and when did I express any disinterest or fear in confronting your particular brand of overbearing communication? Here you are bringing it to me and here I am launching it back; corrected for logic and grammar errors, and with a hint of wit.

You seem to be incredibly mystified. You actually think some here are upset because you were agreeing with Rob Kuntz? Adding caps really drove your point home there. I'm going to have to borrow that technique. Is agreeing with Kuntz why you think some of us turned agin ya? Maybe go back and actually read what you wrote and then read what we wrote and you'd have a handle on what the rest of us are talking about. Then you could sober up and stop being the kid with the funny haircut. You're calling me an idiot? I guess you think you'd score higher than me on any test known to man other than freestyle booger gobblin'?

And yes, you demean groups of people. I demeaned you for doing so. If you think my actions mirror yours you've got a Vic 20 running your program. I want to make sure that you stay up thinking about this tonight, Rich, and I want you to think about it all day tomorrow too. I can tell I'm getting through to you.


farewell2kings wrote:
MAJOR EDIT: I made my Will save after spending an action point and removed the post I had previously put here.

But it was so subtle and measured. When I read it I thought, "That would have been a better tack to take."

Really.


Thanks. Coming from you, that's a real compliment :) I made a New Year's resolution to stop getting involved when discussions take a turn south and I've failed my Will save too many times this year already.


chatdemon rich wrote:


What's wrong, you want to play with the big boys but can't take it when it comes back to you?

Anyone else see a guy on a motorcycle in a security guard uniform?

Okay, dammit....Will Save, Will Save, Will Save, Will Save.....


farewell2kings wrote:
chatdemon rich wrote:


What's wrong, you want to play with the big boys but can't take it when it comes back to you?

Anyone else see a guy on a motorcycle in a security guard uniform?

Okay, dammit....Will Save, Will Save, Will Save, Will Save.....

L frickin' O frickin' L!

Liberty's Edge

farewell2kings wrote:
chatdemon rich wrote:


What's wrong, you want to play with the big boys but can't take it when it comes back to you?

Anyone else see a guy on a motorcycle in a security guard uniform?

Okay, dammit....Will Save, Will Save, Will Save, Will Save.....

Now, his name is Wez. He has a natty mohawk and a blonde glam rock wannabe with a metal boomerang in his forehead on the back of his bike.

"YOU!!! YOu can run.....but you can't hide!!!"


It's like Johnny Bravo on a Zuendapp

Liberty's Edge

farewell2kings wrote:

It's like Johnny Bravo on a Zuendapp

In the eye-mortal words of Kurt Wagner the Night Crawler, "Ach du lieber!"

Contributor

Samuel Weiss wrote:
Uncle wrote:

Grimcleaver:

Different interpretation of fluff. To me fluff is filler, nothing which has a right in the design to begin with: Padding. What you feel is fluff then, by your explanation, would be background and story-line flavor to me, and perhaps neccessary for expanding on the adventure/material in different ways.

So . . .

What exactly of the various new races and spells and deities and the like in the various Core books that have been "added" to Greyhawk have no right to be in the design to begin with?
What exactly of the material in the Greyhawk setting books after the folio, specifically From the Ashes and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, has no right to be part of the design to begin with?
I see little that is not background and story-line flavor in those, and much that is necessary for expanding on the adventure/material in different ways. So please, be more explicit. What specific material in those would you cite as not having a right to be in the design?

Hi Samuel:

I wasn't referring to any particular product now in print, but merely explaining that I'd rather not see fluff (and sharing my interpretation of the word with Grimcleaver, and understanding his interpretation) in products to come, whether these be articles, adventures, other material (books).


Uncle wrote:
I wasn't referring to any particular product now in print, but merely explaining that I'd rather not see fluff (and sharing my interpretation of the word with Grimcleaver, and understanding his interpretation) in products to come, whether these be articles, adventures, other material (books).

Uncle,

I understand your point, but I personally equate the whole "fluff"/"crunch" thing to two halves of a whole. What meaning, to wit, does "crunch" have without a world setting "fluff" to give it basis? True, also, the inverse.

Not trying to debunk your opinion, just trying to understand it; for me, pure "crunch" just doesn't work. That's why I, personally, would like a new Greyhawk supp.

JD oot.

Contributor

It's just a different connotation for me, that's all. Perhaps I have to get used to the term as popularly understood, but I have always interpretted Fluff as I noted above with Grimcleaver. But I now understand how some here interpret it. Thanks.

I understand "Crunch," btw. :)


Infernal Osquip wrote:

Any discussion of settings needs to include some NPC stat blocks - I get the most bang out of my buck when I see the stats for say, a typical Kettite partol (ala Tsojcanth), thieve's guild member, or Severed Hand orc veteran. These stats paired with the political/organization are very useful when PC's interact with the occupants of various locals in the way that matters most: combat! :)

Of course, a stat blocks is also a great way to learn more about that individual's society. By looking at their equipment, race, class, skills, etc., you get a flavor for their nation's technological level, social structure, and political organization.

I think what many are getting at here is that any "fluff" discussion in a sourcebook should be backed with some crunch. Of course some sections, such as history and climate, are all crunchless (but not fluff - they are critical elements of the campaign world). But other sections, such as a description of nations and their citizens, should also include some sample NPC blocks, unique monsters, etc. for the DM to use as is. Two coppers? Done!

Liberty's Edge

Uncle wrote:

Hi Samuel:

I wasn't referring to any particular product now in print, but merely explaining that I'd rather not see fluff (and sharing my interpretation of the word with Grimcleaver, and understanding his interpretation) in products to come, whether these be articles, adventures, other material (books).

But you haven't given your interpretation of fluff. Or of crunch for that matter. You've just made these vague statements that you don't like it. Combined with your statements about problems in Greyhawk, it seems obvious there is a bunch of what you interpret as fluff in the Greyhawk material. I'm just asking for some examples of it so we can all know exactly what you mean.

If none exists, then you must really like the articles, adventures, and books out there for Greyhawk, like From the Ashes and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. If so, then why would you be so concerned about more material like that being developed?

Contributor

Samuel Weiss wrote:
Uncle wrote:

Hi Samuel:

I wasn't referring to any particular product now in print, but merely explaining that I'd rather not see fluff (and sharing my interpretation of the word with Grimcleaver, and understanding his interpretation) in products to come, whether these be articles, adventures, other material (books).

But you haven't given your interpretation of fluff. Or of crunch for that matter. You've just made these vague statements that you don't like it. Combined with your statements about problems in Greyhawk, it seems obvious there is a bunch of what you interpret as fluff in the Greyhawk material. I'm just asking for some examples of it so we can all know exactly what you mean.

If none exists, then you must really like the articles, adventures, and books out there for Greyhawk, like From the Ashes and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. If so, then why would you be so concerned about more material like that being developed?

Oh, but I did give my interpretation: "Different interpretation of fluff. To me fluff is filler, nothing which has a right in the design to begin with: Padding. What you feel is fluff then, by your explanation, would be background and story-line flavor to me, and perhaps neccessary for expanding on the adventure/material in different ways."

I am concerned that if a line of projects were launched, for example, that the rush to get so much into print after the hiatus "could" lead to fluffy product (by my definition). I don't have a problem with any Greyhawk product now in existence except for the Joke Castle, and I didn't read a lot of the later adventures (Puppets, et al) so I can offer no opinion on these.

Cheers!

Liberty's Edge

Uncle wrote:
Oh, but I did give my interpretation: "Different interpretation of fluff. To me fluff is filler, nothing which has a right in the design to begin with: Padding. What you feel is fluff then, by your explanation, would be background and story-line flavor to me, and perhaps neccessary for expanding on the adventure/material in different ways."

OK. It is just that, for instance, a lot of people have harshly criticized the LGG for containing too much "fluff" that isn't background or provide any story line flavor. It has also been cited for lacking much, or to some, any, "crunch." It has no NPC write ups, no feats, no prestige classes, no spells, or anything similar. Heck, it doesn't even have encounter tables!

Uncle wrote:

I am concerned that if a line of projects were launched, for example, that the rush to get so much into print after the hiatus "could" lead to fluffy product (by my definition). I don't have a problem with any Greyhawk product now in existence except for the Joke Castle, and I didn't read a lot of the later adventures (Puppets, et al) so I can offer no opinion on these.

Cheers!

Ah. Well I was curious, particularly since you cited the "varied publishing history" of the setting as a reason to doubt there would be any easy solution to the current state of Greyhawk.

Overall, I'm not sure why you would be worried about anything like that though. I think the exact opposite would be the problem, that someone would come up with too much "crunch" to fit in less than 1000 pages of new books, and we'd either be overloaded with too much of a good thing, or have fights over what gets published first.


Uncle wrote:
Samuel Weiss wrote:
Uncle wrote:

Hi Samuel:

I wasn't referring to any particular product now in print, but merely explaining that I'd rather not see fluff (and sharing my interpretation of the word with Grimcleaver, and understanding his interpretation) in products to come, whether these be articles, adventures, other material (books).

But you haven't given your interpretation of fluff. Or of crunch for that matter. You've just made these vague statements that you don't like it. Combined with your statements about problems in Greyhawk, it seems obvious there is a bunch of what you interpret as fluff in the Greyhawk material. I'm just asking for some examples of it so we can all know exactly what you mean.

If none exists, then you must really like the articles, adventures, and books out there for Greyhawk, like From the Ashes and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. If so, then why would you be so concerned about more material like that being developed?

Oh, but I did give my interpretation: "Different interpretation of fluff. To me fluff is filler, nothing which has a right in the design to begin with: Padding. What you feel is fluff then, by your explanation, would be background and story-line flavor to me, and perhaps neccessary for expanding on the adventure/material in different ways."

I am concerned that if a line of projects were launched, for example, that the rush to get so much into print after the hiatus "could" lead to fluffy product (by my definition). I don't have a problem with any Greyhawk product now in existence except for the Joke Castle, and I didn't read a lot of the later adventures (Puppets, et al) so I can offer no opinion on these.

Cheers!

I am trying to understand what your point has been. After reading all of your posts, I get the idea you are saying you would like a clear, concise, GH product. Rather than having three pages used when one page is sufficient. I hope I am understanding you correctly. I would say that if this is the case everyone would agree with you. Not that some of the books in the last few years have not been full of "fluff", but these are the more poorly reviewed products, that have dissapointed many players.

By the way without starting another rant, can you explain what happened earlier in this post? I did not think there was anything wrong with Chatdemon rich's initial post but after you disparaged him, he went on a prolonged tirade. Obviously there are past issues here but is there not a way to reconcile your differences and accept them as just that, differences of opinion?


Baramay wrote:
I did not think there was anything wrong with Chatdemon rich's initial post but after you disparaged him, he went on a prolonged tirade.

No, actually, for me, that tirade was rather brief, ask anybody.

Liberty's Edge

Stebehil wrote:

It would be great if Greyhawk places (cities, countries, whatever) could get a treatment like the article on Impiltur in issue 346 every now and then. If there would be a balance on articles on the main campaign settings (FR, GH and Eberron), I think there would be something for everyone. (And older settings once a year, more is probably not possible.

There was talk a few years ago of articles on Greyhawk cities that ARE NOT in Triad controled areas to be done by Gary Holian but I think that idea got killed by the WOTC brass. I think that's a great idea. More Living Greyhawk approved articles. But I guess we'll have to settle for stuff on the Web.

Mike


I was so pumped! They actually did one of these last Campaign Classics! There was this whole big lavish rendition of Ironport. It was beautiful!

More of this! Honestly it was pretty much this article that got me from being a sideliner buying an issue or two when they looked good to being a full year subscriber!

Can I tell you how good it feels seeing a suggestion go all the way to showing up in the finished product.

Oh by the way, apparently there's others too. I was given a whole big list of them on my other post, the High But Belated Praise one...apparently there's backissues with similar article length descriptions of Greyhawk cities. I can't wait to catch 'em all!


well, back on page one; was just saying Greyhawk is all been there done that and lived in that world for decades and I can't imagine anything the it desparatly needs. it is pretty solid as is and would take a real uhm; posterior flush, to shake things up.


Valegrim wrote:
well, back on page one; was just saying Greyhawk is all been there done that and lived in that world for decades and I can't imagine anything the it desparatly needs. it is pretty solid as is and would take a real uhm; posterior flush, to shake things up.

Well I'm not one that wants to "shake up" the Greyhawk setting at all. I'm brand new to it and am enjoying it lots as is. The biggest thing I would want is lots of resources for its various cities and nations--as an update for those of us who never got to grow up with it. Honestly I like the flavor of it just great and wouldn't want to see it changed much--just to be let in on some more of the details.


Grimcleaver wrote:
I've been grabbing up every Greyhawk product I can get my hands on, including the online Player's Guid to Greyhawk,

Where can this be found?


jasin wrote:
Where can this be found?

Paizo has a downloads section--including a huge number of old downloads for second edition products. Among those are a huge number of really cheap Greyhawk suppliments. That's where I found it.

Sovereign Court

Grimcleaver wrote:
I was so pumped! They actually did one of these last Campaign Classics! There was this whole big lavish rendition of Ironport. It was beautiful!

I must say I agree with you. Great article (although a map would've been nice). Here's hoping to more of the same.


Hagen wrote:


I must say I agree with you. Great article (although a map would've been nice). Here's hoping to more of the same.

Yes indeed. More cities of Greyhawk. Even expanding the idea to allow for regions of Greyhawk or smaller scale communities would be cool.


Hagen wrote:
Grimcleaver wrote:
I was so pumped! They actually did one of these last Campaign Classics! There was this whole big lavish rendition of Ironport. It was beautiful!
I must say I agree with you. Great article (although a map would've been nice). Here's hoping to more of the same.

Thanks! I'm glad you guys liked our article. Alas, because of the nature of the Campaign Classics issue, we had very limited space (although we still stretched that out!) You can find alot more info (some of it material cut from the article, most of it all-new) and several maps (both regional and local) on my own personal web-expansion on the Irongate section of my website. Follow the linked pages at http://melkot.com/locations/irongate.html

Denis, aka "Maldin"
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

With Paizo no longer doing the Dungeon and Dragon Magizine that proably means that we may not see any more Greyhawk stuff for some time?:( Just when I thought that it might make a come back. Somebody has to shoot my HOPES down:(


<BANG>

Scarab Sages

What Greyhawk really needs is for someone who cares about it and has the money to buy the rights for it from those souless wankers at WotC.


{thinks to self} "What Greyhawk Desparately needs...Waldorf? {cymbal crash}

Yes, 'Pimp My Campaign' and the 'Extreme Makeover' jokes were better. But my joke has the added +1 bonus of an old reference. Boo-yah.

Steve G.
Project Manager, AvatarArt

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