Anyone else notice the dashing young vixin on the cover of the player's guide is wearing a pistol on her thigh? Got me wondering if anyone was thinking of using firearms in their STAP? I particulary like the way firearms are used in the "Pirates of the the..." movies. Mostly fire and forget weapons. One or two shots and then pull out the sword and maybe use the pistol's butt as a club.
Anyways, anyone thinking of allowing firearms and if so where would you look for rules. I have an old Freeport book with some firearms rules but was wondering if anyone knew of any others that they prefered. Want firearms to pack a punch but don't want to see them used every round of combat.
Thanks,
Shade325
I've allowed firearms, though no players have taken them as yet (obviously too expensive). I'm just using the DMG rules, with a longer reload time. Based on (admittedly basic) research into muzzle-loading guns of the 18th century I went with 2 full round actions. The first round is spent prepping the bullet and priming the shot while the second is spent filling the gun with smokepowder and packing the shot. So a character could fire on round one, spend two rounds reloading, then fire again on round four. Obviously not ideal for constant use, and gets folks into the fire-then-melee mode I'm looking for.
As I'm running the game in Mystara, the firearms come from the Savage Coast area, far away from both the Known World where the PCs are from and the southern continent where Sasserine is located. I'll be outfitting some of the Crimson Fleet (officers and such) with some pistols, and might include a few muskets to replace ranged opponents.
Oh, and I'm considering the pirate ships having a few cannons to spice things up...
Looked at the DMG firearms and remember why I wasn't impressed by them. They don't have the right flavor. Their essentially crossbows on steroids.
The problem with firearms in a fantasy/medival world is game balance. Ultimately firearms shouldn't be balanced with longbows and crossbows. They should be better. But what does better mean. More damage? Attack bonus for better penetration? Higher range?
I like the idea of firearms in the STAP but fear that either the rules will balance/nerf them so no one takes them or will make them so cool, that's all it ever used.
The Freeport system I have access to takes 3 full rounds to reload a weapon (you can use up to two feat slots to buy it down to one full round) but that still makes it unattractive aver level 5-7ish. They have a decent damage output, but not enough to make up for lack of iterative attacks.
Anyways... wondering if anyone else has seen a good system. I hear Plotus has firearms and how about the Swashbuckler series by AEG? Anyone have any info/opinions?
Shade325
Privateer Press' Iron Kingdoms setting has the best firearms rules out there. You can even download the rules for free from their site.
Is it against the rules to post the link to them here?
- Neomorte
Our group is using firearms. My character (a scout) has the Exotic Weapon Proficiency- Firearms and plans to buy a musket soon. The wizard in our party carries an old gun in his sash... it's old an broken, but wears it to intimidate any local who wishes him harm. :) Very fun.
Does anyone have any thoughts about how firearms balance out (or make the game unbalanced) for Savage Tide?
I like the Idea of firearms in savage tide but very rare and expensive to buy. I think the fire and melee aproach works the best, especially for pirates.
Vern
I'm allowing firearms in my game. As for a source, Dragon put had an article about six months ago (cant remember which issue it was in because I cut out the stuff I'm going to use and chuck the rest.) that had a huge list (with pictures and stats) from a simple arqubus or a blunderbus, to flintlock rifles and muskets, to hand cannons. hopefully someone will remember the issue number.
Does anyone have any thoughts about how firearms balance out (or make the game unbalanced) for Savage Tide?
I don't think that firearms unballance the game at all. In reality they are very limited. They have a slow rate of fire, they are very expensive to maintain, they're not very reliable, it would take some work to get bullets with a magical plus, and they don't inflict nearly as much damage as say a Wand of Lightning. I just think that some people flinch at the thought of firarms, because they put them in the context of modern guns. Old ball muskets were extreamly inaccurate, didn't work in damp weather, and if not taken care of properly, would blow up in your hand.
I don't know if this carried over from 2ED, but in 2ED when you roll a 1 (fumble) an arquebus blows up in your hand, and you take full damage. Thats not to say that characters still don't use them. It just seems to help with the insanity factor of character development.
Sorry, the issue was older than I thought. July 2004.
... I went with 2 full round actions. The first round is spent prepping the bullet and priming the shot while the second is spent filling the gun with smokepowder and packing the shot ...
Our rule is one full round to reload plus a Skill check for success. If the roll is missed another full round must be used with another Skill check for success, and so on. Plus, if any Skill check is missed by more than half then we say that "load" of ammunition has been corrupted and is un-usable, and the process must start anew with another full "load" of ammo if they have it.
The Skill check to be made has modifiers depending upon what is going on. For example, standing quietly alone gets a bonus while kneeling in the back of a wagon going full speed (being chased by a horde of enemy, of course) gets a negative.
Personally, I like the Markovian flavor of this. You should try it out!
:)
I'm allowing firearms in my campaign as well but the problem I came across was that 1st level characters can't afford to own and opperate a gun (per DMG rules) and when they get up a level they don't want to waste a feat on an exotic weapon proficiency.
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I'm allowing firearms in my campaign as well but the problem I came across was that 1st level characters can't afford to own and opperate a gun (per DMG rules) and when they get up a level they don't want to waste a feat on an exotic weapon proficiency.
The PC's benefactor in the game could always loan them enough money to buy one. Repayable out of their share of future treasure along with a favor of the benefactor's choice -- meaning the hook to the next adventure. Or simply replace some of the treasure found in the Lotus Dragon's lair with a small pistol wrapped in oil cloth to keep it from rusting. Hide it in the room with Penkus on Parrot Island or have Soller Vark have it in his possession on the Blue Nixie. Soller doesn't know how to use it, but he's just the sort of braggart to carry it for looks & intimidation.
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Our rule is one full round to reload plus a Skill check for success. If the roll is missed another full round must be used with another Skill check for success, and so on.
The Iron Kingdoms campaign setting implemented a Craft (Small Arms) skill used for reloads similar to the rule you use. The Craft small arms skill would also be very useful for when the PCs journey to the Isle of Dread. Without access to civilization and normal means of buying bullets this could be used to forge bullets in the wild. Much like requiring thieves tools for a rogue to pick locks, a small arms kit could be required to forge bullets over a camp fire provided the correct raw materials were available. Having the PCs purchase a kit much like a healer's kit or climber's kit could give them a +2 bonus to crafting.
Iron Kingdoms introduced the Gun Mage class (downloadable for free at the Privateer Press web site) which allows mages to "shoot" any ray spell from their gun. The web site also has basic rules for firearms (also downloadable for free) but they list the price of ammunition at 6-8gp per bullet. Personally, I'd go with the 10 bullets for 3 gp as listed in the DMG.
I'm allowing firearms in my campaign as well but the problem I came across was that 1st level characters can't afford to own and opperate a gun (per DMG rules) and when they get up a level they don't want to waste a feat on an exotic weapon proficiency.
Well, if first level characters do not mind sitting on thier kiesters a bit, they can actually earn some significant cash without leaving town. For example, albiet rather unpleasant, take a first level cleric with the Healing domain and his 3 1st level spells for the day. According to the PHB, said cleric should be able to - just on those 3 spells per day - earn 60 gp per day (10xcaster level for 1st level spells). Throw in an extra 15 gp per day for the 3 orisons. Not bad ... you can earn 75 gp per day as a 1st level cleric. Hmmm ... daddy needs him some full plate armor and hasn't hit Middle Age yet ...
They can earn the cash to pay for the gun - if you're willing to let them *earn* the cash to do so after the campaign starts. In some ways, it encourages them to cooperative play - or at least, it should in theory ...
Slightly off topic :
In my campaign , the guns arent the problem, the "smokepowder" is.
Sooner or later my pc's are going to get hold of large amounts , and what then? Am working out some kind of explosive power table(?) for use later, can't have the evil thugs lighting the fuse and run every time...
Slightly off topic :
In my campaign , the guns arent the problem, the "smokepowder" is.
Sooner or later my pc's are going to get hold of large amounts , and what then? Am working out some kind of explosive power table(?) for use later, can't have the evil thugs lighting the fuse and run every time...
A bigger amount of smokepowder is in game terms not much worse than a fireball, I think. A sorcerer of sixth level can throw 3-4 fireballs a day, with 6d6 damage apiece, or 18-24d6 overall. A keg of smokepowder would deal perhaps as much damage as a single fireball, and would be much more unreliable - wet fuses, slightly wet powder, someone dousing the fuse in the last second (as can be seen in every action movie). And setting off several kegs at once? Without modern time fuses, that will be very difficult to do. You might try a chain reaction, but even that is no guaranteed success - the first one might just blow away the other ones instead of igniting them.
So, with a bit of creative DMing, you can easily offset the "Smoke Powder Menace".
Stefan
The PC's benefactor in the game could always loan them enough money to buy one. Repayable out of their share of future treasure along with a favor of the benefactor's choice -- meaning the hook to the next adventure. Or simply replace some of the treasure found in the Lotus Dragon's lair with a small pistol wrapped in oil cloth to keep it from rusting. Hide it in the room with Penkus on Parrot Island or have Soller Vark have it in his possession on the Blue Nixie. Soller doesn't know how to use it, but he's just the sort of braggart to carry it for looks & intimidation.
That's a good idea. Thanks.
Well, if first level characters do not mind sitting on thier kiesters a bit, they can actually earn some significant cash without leaving town. For example, albiet rather unpleasant, take a first level cleric with the Healing domain and his 3 1st level spells for the day. According to the PHB, said cleric should be able to - just on those 3 spells per day - earn 60 gp per day (10xcaster level for 1st level spells). Throw in an extra 15 gp per day for the 3 orisons. Not bad ... you can earn 75 gp per day as a 1st level cleric. Hmmm ... daddy needs him some full plate armor and hasn't hit Middle Age yet ...
They can earn the cash to pay for the gun - if you're willing to let them *earn* the cash to do so after the campaign starts. In some ways, it encourages them to cooperative play - or at least, it should in theory ...
Also a good idea. Thanks. Also there is that Merchant Quarter feat from the STAP players guide PDF that lets them start off with 300 extra gp.
They can earn the cash to pay for the gun - if you're willing to let them *earn* the cash to do so after the campaign starts. In some ways, it encourages them to cooperative play - or at least, it should in theory ... Also a good idea. Thanks. Also there is that Merchant Quarter feat from the STAP players guide PDF that lets them start off with 300 extra gp.
There's no way I'd cashier a precious feat for a measly 300 gp of extra cash for an item that can be sundered etc. etc. I'd rather earn the cash, add some age and get on with packling the bad guys. Although that IS a nice touch for the players - if it is a freebie feat, then that's another matter...
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Anyways, anyone thinking of allowing firearms and if so where would you look for rules. I have an old Freeport book with some firearms rules but was wondering if anyone knew of any others that they prefered. Want firearms to pack a punch but don't want to see them used every round of combat.
Shade325
I am deffinately going to make them available but RARE. Personally I'm going to make use of the D20 Past book as well as OGL Steampunk (for more magically inclined firearms). They've got some really great basic flint/lock, blackpowder single shot guns in D20 Past. The rules are very streight forward and inline with the core D20 rules. One shot, 2 rounds to reload, one shot etc. They only have a 15' range increment so PC's will have to get up close to use it effectivly. They get no DEX bonus to shoot the gun as well as the text says the Ball is smaller than the barrell and tends to bounce around a bit before exiting the barrell of the gun. Imagine your PC's have no firearm profficiency, can't use their DEX bonus, and get only one shot?! Most PC's probably won't bother.
My PC's are going to have to spend time learning how to use any firearm they come across. It's a new tech. for them. Imagine they will have to figure out how to make the gun powder (not a widely available thing in DnD). They will have to craft the projectiles etc. etc. Could be alot of fun if they choose to RP all of that. Or they could just sell the thing off for the gold.
G
I can say with authority that it takes a good deal more than 6 seconds to load any muzzle-loading firearm (except, perhaps, a blunderbuss). For a long-arm (rifle or musket) flintlock, 2 aimed shots per minute is considered excellent. A pistol might be slighty faster, but not by much. Keep in mind that the loader must have both hands free.
I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, and I'm the first to admit that D&D is not particularly compatible with real-world physics and historical accuracy. I'd just like to point out that some of the proposed reload times on this post seem a bit... inaccurate. A matchlock might load a bit faster, but is much more susceptible to the vagaries of weather. Percussion caps are pretty far outside the capabilities of a medieval-flavored society. BTW, cannons often took several minutes to reload after firing.
Slightly off topic :
In my campaign , the guns arent the problem, the "smokepowder" is.
Sooner or later my pc's are going to get hold of large amounts , and what then? Am working out some kind of explosive power table(?) for use later, can't have the evil thugs lighting the fuse and run every time...A bigger amount of smokepowder is in game terms not much worse than a fireball, I think. A sorcerer of sixth level can throw 3-4 fireballs a day, with 6d6 damage apiece, or 18-24d6 overall. A keg of smokepowder would deal perhaps as much damage as a single fireball, and would be much more unreliable - wet fuses, slightly wet powder, someone dousing the fuse in the last second (as can be seen in every action movie). And setting off several kegs at once? Without modern time fuses, that will be very difficult to do. You might try a chain reaction, but even that is no guaranteed success - the first one might just blow away the other ones instead of igniting them.
So, with a bit of creative DMing, you can easily offset the "Smoke Powder Menace".
Stefan
Thanks Stefan, plenty of good ideas that will find its way into my game!
For now, my players will get a visit from some grenade-throwing vampire spawn. Thats what they get for firebombing a Vampire Lord and letting him slip away...
I do rather like the way IK does guns and grenades for the most part. I also like their Gun Mage class as well as the Junker and Arcane Mechanic. There was a Dragon mag article in issue #321 (August 2004)pages 31-38, probably one the best one in the magazine IMHO. The pic on the Player's Guide is actually a reprint of the cover of Dragon #273 which had tons of material for swashbuckling campaigns that is what we be considered fluff but it is good fluff, the kind of fluff that makes for good campaign. If you have the means of picking it up, you would be doing yourself a favor. The first article gives some crunch in both 2nd Ed and 3rd Ed (the issue came out the month before 3rd Ed came out and Dragon switched formats) as well as recommended reading and viewing. The other two articles are ideas and suggestions. And if anyone reading this is an Alternity and especially a Star Drive fan, this same issue has the last weapons dump for that setting.
I'm curious to some opinions of the writing staff about adding firearms into the STAP. What are you thoughts on doing something like this Mr. James Jacobs?
How involved would you make them like just the DMG stuff or the stuff from Dragon #321 (which I think might be overkill)? Also would you increase the action type time to reload such as a full round instead of a standard action?
Thanks,
Matt B.
I like the early gun powder age! You can have the best of all worlds. My Savage Tide campaign will feature early fire arms that might not be as deadly a long bow in the hands of a trained professional but can 'balance' the playing field.
I like the firearm rules in Freeport/ Iron Kingdoms/ Skull and Bones/ Stone to Steel/ and Northern Crown. Combined with the DMG rules I think you get flavor and great weapon.
I like the image of a PC wearing a pair of wheellock pistols thrust in a sash. I like it better when it goes against stero types and the PC is a gray bearded wizard!
Ultimately firearms shouldn't be balanced with longbows and crossbows. They should be better. But what does better mean. More damage? Attack bonus for better penetration? Higher range?
Actually longbows were considered better than early firearms because they were more accurate over a greater range, fired faster and were just as likely to kill a man (even one in armour). It's just it was a lot easier to train a man to use a musket than it was to use a longbow.
I like the idea of firearms in the STAP but fear that either the rules will balance/nerf them so no one takes them or will make them so cool, that's all it ever used.
That's why the need to be balanced.
Best way to balance firearms in my opinion is to give them long load times and slightly increased damage and critical. They certainly shouldn't be able to do iterative attacks if you want to reflect the genre. They were very much a fire and forget weapon.
I'm allowing firearms in my campaign as well but the problem I came across was that 1st level characters can't afford to own and opperate a gun (per DMG rules) and when they get up a level they don't want to waste a feat on an exotic weapon proficiency.
Make them simple weapons then, after all they replaced longbows because it was easier to train someone to use them.
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From the Iron Kingdoms setting (which uses firearms all over the place):
Military Pistol - 2d6 damage, 19-20/x3 crit, 1 standard action reload, 80 ft. range increment, 200 gp
Military Rifle - 2d8 damage, 19-20/x3 crit, 2 standard action reload, 200 ft. range increment, 300 gp
Ammunition runs about 6 gp per shot for the pistol and 10 gp for the rifle. Gunpowder isn't cheap.
They seem pretty balanced to me. Hope it helps. :)
Fire Arms as Simple Weapons would balance the playing field.
A nice old AD&D resource piece is "A Mighty Fortress" by Steve Winter. Steve is a great guy, old school, and did a lot of research on this book. You might find it in a bargin book shelf or on E-Bay at some time. Worth a look.
I would make it a martial weapon at the very least, and that's if the firearms were more availible to the populace at large. I would make a single firearm type (musket) a martial weapon and the weapon group firearms an exotic. Any monkey can swing a club (simple), but you need training to load and reload a semi-primitive firearm. No training means more misfires and explosions. Modern fireams make it so that a monkey can load and fire a Sig P2340 or a Beretta 92R. I've seen it done before. My brother's spider monkey is a very good shot with a BB pistol.
anybody besides me think that the ranges in many if not all games for firearms is just plain silly?
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I would make it a martial weapon at the very least, and that's if the firearms were more availible to the populace at large. I would make a single firearm type (musket) a martial weapon and the weapon group firearms an exotic. Any monkey can swing a club (simple), but you need training to load and reload a semi-primitive firearm. No training means more misfires and explosions. Modern fireams make it so that a monkey can load and fire a Sig P2340 or a Beretta 92R. I've seen it done before. My brother's spider monkey is a very good shot with a BB pistol.
That's how Planet of the Apes got started.
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anybody besides me think that the ranges in many if not all games for firearms is just plain silly?
Bear in mind that a range increment is just the range one can use a weapon at without penalty. MAXIMUM range for a weapon is its range increment x10 (or x5 if thrown weapon). So, for the rifle that I listed, its effective maximum range is 2000 ft, which, for a musket-style weapon, is pretty damn generous, imo.
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My group is allowing flintlocks, and are using the rules in the DMG for Renaissance firearms, with a lowered price. This being said, we've been considering also allowing revolvers. Thematically, our DM described them as 'flintlocks with a revolving chamber', so we think they'll still be thematically appropriate. Mechanically, they allow iterative attacks, which doesn't bother anybody much. The things we're wondering about are twofold: Cost, and feats. Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms) allows the use of both pistols and rifles in our group, but we're split on whether that's all we need.
Revolvers without percussion caps are just too difficult to engineer. However, IIRC there were pistols made with two barrels before percussion caps were invented (as a house rule, you could have a double-barreled pistol cost 350gp and allow two shots/iterative attacks before reloading). Personally, I think reloading times for firearms are too short, also. Two full round actions (with Rapid Reload/Firearms to reduce it to one full round action) is how I handle it on the occasions I use them in a campaign.
I miss the way 2nd edition Player's Option: Combat and Tactics handled firearms. Not only did it detail hand-match, match-lock, wheel-lock, and flint-lock guns, but it had rules for missfires as well.
Since I am using a high tech, almost steampunk homebrew campaign setting to run STAP, I have already established that operatives within the company the PC's work for often bear firearms. They were offered double starting wealth or a firearm, which remained the property of the company until further notice. Ammunition is tricky, but not impossible to find, and i make a judgement call based on the local gov't as to wether the PC's will get in trouble for owning/displaying such destructive weapons and wether gun accessories, replacements and ammo is widely available.
Oddly enough, in the actual campaign based in this setting no one chose to use the guns (mine do less damage, but have aggressive crit ranges and/or multipliers, as a .22 doesn't do much damage unless you shoot someone point blank in the face, and even then, you need to get in a lucky shot to drop even a 1st level commoner) but in STAP, I have two gunslingers, a Cleric and a Duskblade.
The cleric gets guns because they are his deity's favorite weapon and one of his domains allows Exotic Weapon Proficiency (pistol), the duskblade took a feat. I had put a lot of effort into the firearms system to try to keep it balanced, including several pages on it in my Player's Guide to my campaign.
They are slow loaders (without appropriate feats), and not always the most effective, but several of the scenes involving guns have been quite thrilling and cinematic. There was the Lotus Dragon ambush, which turned into a Western Style gunfight on the roofs (oh yeah, of course some of the bad guys use guns too, if I give 'em to the PC's) and the first Kraken's Cove Savage Pirate encounter, in which the duskblade rolled a crit with his rifle on the first round of combat, blowing a gaping hole in the poor afflicted creature's chest big enough to get Britney Spears through.
Since guns can be used as clubs, I consider a creature with a gun to be armed with either or both a melee and ranged weapon for AoO and threatening purposes. I really haven't gotten into bayonets, but *shrug* I am sure it will work fine if one of the players decides to do it.