I was looking in the Dungeon Web enchancements section when I came across this section. My curiosity was piqued and I looked in. Talk about an interesting little article. However, two questions came to mind. (Yes, Heathansson, I ***DO*** have a mind! Get away from it, Lilith the Lilithid!) My questions are...
1. Was the adventure ever accepted by Dungeon for publication? And if so, what issue was it in?
2. Can we see more of that lovely artwork that the author of that adventure sent in? Please! Pretty, pretty Please!!! It is as good as Lilith's artwork!
Chief Technical Officer
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For those of you who don't know what Sharoth is talking about (and I'm guessing that's almost all of you, including most of the Dungeon staff), he's referring to a news item we posted three and a half years ago. I suspect the only current Paizo employee that might know the fate of the submission is Erik Mona....
-Vic.
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Thanks for the quick response Vic. ~Looks around for Erik and then for the torture devices that we will use to get the info out of him~ You will tell us, Erik. Take your time in revealing the information, because we have all weekend! ~gives an EVIL grin~
I'm just dying to know if it was ever approved, and if we've read this adventure in one of the recent issues...?
DUNGEON approved the query, but balked at the length of the adventure and had a reasonable series of objections to some content that stretched the D&D rules a tad too far. They sent the manuscript back, with a helpful set of comments, for a rewrite. The truth is that Chris Thomasson and the other folks then at DUNGEON were exceptionally kind, given the monstrous scale of the materials dropped on them.
Then the lazy author dropped the ball.
I know.
I'm the lazy author.
When I sent in the adventure with the illustrations, I never imagined I'd end up on the mag's website as an object lesson on how NOT to submit an adventure! That made my wife roar. And I'm delighted that they've kept that STRANGEST SUBMISSION article on the site all these years. I liked that adventure. Just last night I was considering retooling it and re-submitting a query for it. Then, out of nowhere, I saw this thread. Looks like the cosmic tumblers are falling into place.
If you'd like to see more of the illustrations from that adventure, let me know. I've got a pile of them up on my website. The adventure featured wereleopards, and I did several paintings of them. I've since sold one of the illustrations to a different publisher, who put it on a book cover, breaking up the set (which might have been a poor choice if DUNGEON ever accepts the adventure).
I remember reading that!! I was SO hoping to see that adventure actually get printed. Dude, GET CRACKING!! And also, if you don't feel like *writing* an adventure, ILLUSTRATE THEM!!
Wife and I *love* the artwork - where can we see more??
Thank you so much! I'm blushing big time.
I'd be delighted to give you the link to my website for my illustration and cartography work (and my fine art work too, which has it's own website, if you like), but I'm new to these messageboards. What's the etiquette on that? Is it a faux pas to pass around your weblinks?
I've been fortunate enough to convince DUNGEON to use me as a cartographer in the past, and the editors are presently reviewing a manuscript of mine that I submitted with a fairly rockin' map (at least in my opinion). I've asked for a shot at illustrating that adventure if they decide to print it (fingers, toes, & eyes crossed!). But I don't want to do ANYTHING else to rock that boat now! (My manuscript was uncomfortably longer than the length they requested. Bad author. Bad, bad author!) I'd better wait until that submission plays out before aggressively soliciting illustration work.
Thanks again for all the kind words! I'm going to be hard to live with all weekend.
Thank you so much! I'm blushing big time.
I'd be delighted to give you the link to my website for my illustration and cartography work (and my fine art work too, which has it's own website, if you like), but I'm new to these messageboards. What's the etiquette on that? Is it a faux pas to pass around your weblinks?
as far as I know, it's perfectly OK. TonyM has shamelessly posted links to his own site. Some of the better fan-created stuff in both adventure paths wouldn't exist if it weren't for 3-rd party websites like Kormado´s RPGenius and Lilith´s Stat block bank.
Okay, as long as I'm not acting in a socially unacceptable fashion. The link to my illustration and cartography website is www.ashenvaleart.com. It's severely outdated at the moment, particularly in the "fine art" section. (The link to my fine art website is www.edwardjreed.com. That site's more up to date, particularly with respect to awards.)
I built both sites myself with Dreamweaver and Photoshop. My knowledge of website construction is EXTREMELY LIMITED, so there are no fancy bells or whistles. Tell me what you think!
The artwork is incredible. I also read your story on how you became an artist and it's very inspiring. It's always good to hear people turn something negative into just another chapter in their lives and make the best of it. Best of luck to you and I hope to see more of your artwork published.
PS: I didn't know you had done the map for "Fiend's Embrace" in Dungeon #121...I really liked the way the map of the Cold Marshes looked, kind of an angled 3D satellite image...very cool!
I was feeling too ill last night to mention how impressed I was with your art, Ashenvale. Today's a new day and I'm going to check out your link now. Thanks for posting it.
Okay, as long as I'm not acting in a socially unacceptable fashion. The link to my illustration and cartography website is www.ashenvaleart.com. It's severely outdated at the moment, particularly in the "fine art" section. (The link to my fine art website is www.edwardjreed.com. That site's more up to date, particularly with respect to awards.)
I built both sites myself with Dreamweaver and Photoshop. My knowledge of website construction is EXTREMELY LIMITED, so there are no fancy bells or whistles. Tell me what you think!
Very nice stuff! My first website looked a heck of a lot worse! The only thing as far as your website is concerned is to keep the navigation menus the same on every page. It makes it easier for the user to navigate your site.
Your artwork is fantastic, and I really like the cartography you've done! Here's to hoping it shows up in Dragon or Dungeon someday!
Okay, as long as I'm not acting in a socially unacceptable fashion. The link to my illustration and cartography website is www.ashenvaleart.com. It's severely outdated at the moment, particularly in the "fine art" section. (The link to my fine art website is www.edwardjreed.com. That site's more up to date, particularly with respect to awards.)
I built both sites myself with Dreamweaver and Photoshop. My knowledge of website construction is EXTREMELY LIMITED, so there are no fancy bells or whistles. Tell me what you think!
Very nice stuff! My first website looked a heck of a lot worse! The only thing as far as your website is concerned is to keep the navigation menus the same on every page. It makes it easier for the user to navigate your site.
Your artwork is fantastic, and I really like the cartography you've done! Here's to hoping it shows up in Dragon or Dungeon someday!
List your site please!
... The link to my illustration and cartography website is ... The link to my fine art website is...
Dude - your art is seriously cool! It's great to see a geek artist who's got their own style and not afraid of painting non-fantasy stuff!
And what a submission!
;)
Peace,
tfad
Exceptional! Thanks for posting the sites, I enjoyed browsing your story & work...although my employer probably wouldn't have appreciated the time spent as much as I did ;)
J-
Really, really top flight, in all aspects (except perhaps submitting queries ;). If I ever have the opportunity to redesign my dream pagoda you're on the short list.
GGG
Wow! Thanks everybody!
My submission from way back when was all about the cathedral. In fact, about half of the images in the "Illustrations" section of my Artwork page were paintings I made to show my players what they saw when I first ran this adventure. These images include, "Wereleopards" (the first illustration) "Bael's Return" (the night hag stepping out of Hades and into our world) "Feroosh" (the four-winged half-dragon/half-sprite), "Emberfall" (home base for the adventure), "Theft of the Stone" (the wereleopard holding the glowing sphere and the unconscious dude, the first scene of the adventure), "Ghost", and "Chasm Bridge" (the ghost's haunt). I always think its more fun to describe the setting for my players, and then whip out a picture and say, "Through the snow and the shifting light, you see THIS!"
I sent the originals for all of these illustrations in that monstrous box I sent to DUNGEON along with the adventure's manuscript, inspiring their STRANGEST SUBMISSION EVER article.
In the "Gaming Exhibits" section of my Artwork page, the first four illustrations were also from that adventure.
On my Cartography page, the "Mountainside" map (the second on the page, showing both Emberfall and the Cathedral's location), was the main overland map for the adventure. The four maps on the bottom row of my Cartography page depict the ruins of the cathedral itself, the main adventure site.
Boy, that all takes me back a few years!
The challenge now (if the editors would green light the query again after all these years) would be trimming the adventure to 10,000 words or less. When I wrote the initial manuscript, there wasn't a clear limit on pages or words. I'd need to carve down the scale of the cathedral itself -- too many rooms for the word limitation. That means, among other things creating new maps, an enjoyable but time-consuming job!
I think I'll hold off until they either accept or reject my manuscript for that different adventure they're considering now. That whole don't-rock-the-boat thing.
Thanks everybody for all the kind words! And the thoughtful suggestions about the website's format! Now I'm genuinely excited about that adventure again. You folks sure can be inspiring!
Awesome stuff, Ash! I had no idea you did the art for my adventure in #121 when I followed the link and I'm all, "Dude! That's stuff from Fiend's Embrace." When I got my copy I was really happy that you followed the concept cartography I submitted with my manuscript and did such a fine job of realizing it on paper. I wish Paizo had used your artwork for Zarlag's Hut. It's really cool. The Lost Army pic was just as chilling as I had imagined it. No pun intended.
Thanks for the awesome behind the scenes peek at what could have been included with that adventure.
Thanks again for all the kind words! I'm going to be hard to live with all weekend.
At least it's a THREE-DAY weekend!
:D
I remember that article, and I would also really like to see that adventure published, or at least more art from it! I made myself a desktop wallpaper or two with just the stuff that Paizo released in that article. :-) *runs over to Ashenvale's site*
TK
Hey Steve! I meet you at long last! "Fiend's Embrace" was a phenomenal adventure. Great backstory, terrific keep, and probably the most imaginative set of possible-other-adventure hooks I've ever seen, scattered liberally throughout the countryside. "The Lost Army" gave me both a dozen story ideas and a shivering case of the creeps. The standing stones from "The Mud Flats" sparked an image that, in turn, inspired a goofy adventure whose manuscript DUNGEON's editors will soon be ripping to shreds and using to line their cockatrice cage.
Of those six vignettes that I tried to convince DUNGEON would look good around the Cold Marshes map, I had the most fun with Zarlag's Hut. I took some liberties with your description (gulp!), but the hut I painted (which I made deliberately reminiscent of Baba Yaga's hut) was just plain fun. I spent between a half day and a day on each of those vingettes, and it was about the most enjoyable week I've spent illustrating.
All in all, you write very inspiring stuff!
Ashenvale, it looks like Lilith, the Demon Queen of Artwork and Brain Eating, has just gotten some competition! ~wistles~ Damn, man! You have done good! BTW, how is your chronic pain trouble? I hope it has gotten better. However, you have do a wonderful thing in making something good out of the bad. ~hangs my head~ Damn, but your story makes me realize just how much I whine over the little things! Thanks for the abject lesson in "Dude, you do not have it so bad!" ~GRINS~ Keep up the good work!
Ashenvale, I am sorry that Tim Hildebrandt died. At least you had a chance to meet him. I wish I had been so lucky. Tell his son that many of us loved his artwork and appreciate what a wonderful job he did for showing us those worlds and images!
~sigh~ Ashenvale, you and Lilth make me wish I was an artist. ~grins~ But I am waaayyyyy too lazy. Plus, if I did anything, it would be to go back to college and get my chemistry degree. You know, do something easy!
Thanks for the praise, Sharoth! Yes, Tim Hildebrandt's death was a terrible loss. He is the only childhood hero of mine I ever met.
His son Charles and Charles's wife Beth, with whom I used to practice law, and who are both in my D&D group, are both wonderful people, as generous as any I've met. Their house is filled with Charles's father's paintings. You're just sitting around chatting about stuff when, WHAM!, it hits you. On the wall just behind Beth is the four-foot painting of the fellowship passing between the feet of the Argonath (an image I cut out of the Hildebrandt calendar and hung over my bed for years as a kid). Look left, and there's a dragon from another book cover staring down at you. Look right, and there's a city floating in space. Visiting their house is like a trip to fairyland.
Tim's death was also cruelly unexpected. Tim had suffered a stroke the year or so before but was recovering beautifully. Then he got the flu. That's all. The flu. His family took him to the hospital because they feared complications related to his earlier stroke. As I understand it, the medical staff gave Tim an I.V. but didn't do it properly. An infection started at the I.V. site and, before anyone noticed it, got into his bloodstream and attacked his heart. By the time they realized what was wrong, it was too late.
I lack words to express what an inspiration Tim was to me over the years. He's one of the people that brought magic into my life.
Thanks a lot or sharing your artwork with us! The pictures and the maps (I remember the Cold Marshes map as hitting me as a very unusual and fascinating idea for a map) are just jaw-dropping beautiful. I´m sure the adventure would be great for the maps and artwork alone, and if there is a great adventure as well, its sure to be a big success. And it would fit perfectly together if you do everything yourself.
Stefan
Thanks, Stefan! Good lord, you are all so nice. I'm still foolishly enamoured with the notion of doing all three components -- writing, illustrating, and mapping an adventure. Lowering my sights a touch is probably a very good idea. But I do appreciate your comments very much!
-Ted
Wow!
I just checked out your site, and...wow.
Very impressive. I *love* your maps.
Thanks for sharing with us!
Wow....
--Fang
Ashenvale, that is some incredible artwork you've done, a damn shame it hasn't been printed. Best of luck in future issues, it is easily worthy of the magazine's high standards.
I have to say I'm glad I saw this link. I'm a DM of over 20 years and just recently submitted a query of one of my dungeons (an epic level). If it gets the greenlight I was fully planning to include a pile of my own artwork as well, but I know now I'd better not. Thanx for letting all us aspiring writer/artist types learn from your mistakes.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I remember the submission very well. We were all blown away by it. As I recall (I was working almost exclusively on the Polyhedron side of the magazine at the time) we had to send it back because it was too large and too close to the change between 3.0 and 3.5, but we always hoped to see it again.
--Erik Mona
So, Ted, how much more encouragement do you need ? :-) If even Erik Mona wants to see it again, go for it !
Stefan
Yes, Ted! I have only one thing to say to you about that adventure... "GET TO WORK, SLAVE!!!" We expect results and we want them NOW!!! ~GRINS~
Erik Mona remembers MY adventure?! Great! No pressure!
All right, down to my damp and musty basement I run to dig through those boxes, spiderwebs, and piles of forgotten toddler toys for that old manuscript for "The Striken".
Is it okay to be both thrilled and terrified at the same time?
~holds Ashenvale's hand as he looks for his adventure~ Yes, Ted. It is ok to be excited and terrified at the same time! By the way, isn't you wife going to be upset at me for holding your hand when she is the one who should be doing that? ~WEG~ Take care, Ted, and have a great day!
Nah. I teach figure painting for a living. If my wife doesn't mind me staring at naked women all day, she's not going to freak out over a friend holding my hand in a time of need. Besides, now that she's heard I'm venturing down into the bowels of our house with intent to fight through the spiderwebs, she's too busy to notice. She's happily scribbling out that lengthy list of all the things I need to tote up and take over to Goodwill.
~laughter~ Oh, my! What have I started? Give a wife an inch and she has you doing all sort of stuff! ~laughs~ I am so sorry, Ted. If I had known the horrors that you would be encountering I would have never... ~snort~ ...started... ~chortle~ ...the threeaaaddddd...~bursts out laughing~ Ah, who am I kidding! I am evil enough of a guy to have done it for the pure misery that you will encounter in cleaning up the basement! ~GRINS~ I am just kidding. Good luck with the basement cleanup and I hope that you find your manuscript!
I'm one of the players from the original adventure, and I would like to say that I enjoyed it more than any other adventure in any genre that I have ever played. My friends and I had so much fun working our way through the cathedral to the final confrontation, and Ted's illustrations are even better in real life than they look on the website.
Um, where can I see the query for this adventure?
Thanks everybody! I dug out the old adventure manuscript, cobbled together a renewed query, and fired it off last night. I’d never have done ANY of that if Sharoth hadn’t started this thread and the rest of you hadn’t been so astonishingly supportive.
Okay, now, PLEASE HELP! I’m new to the boards and trying to figure everything out. From the “Critique My Query” thread and the thread entitled, “Is there a black hole in the submissions room at Paizo,” my sense is that we don't share queries until the editors reject them. Is that right?
If so, on Neeklus’ question, I better wait for a rejection before posting it. (Much as I’d love your feedback right away!)
Then, once the inevitable rejections come in, we can post them on the “Critique My Query” thread to get feedback from everyone, right? Do we offer only our "best" rejected queries, the ones on which we're puzzled or angry about the rejection? Or do we offer our worst ones to get a wider range of feedback?
Is the “black hole” thread the best place to get insight into the schedule on which the editors review and decide on queries? I see there’s a multi-step process for query review. Can anybody summarize that for me? Do we know what queries, in terms of when they were submitted, the editors will considered at this week’s meeting?
I’ve read some of each of those threads and intend to read them completely. Until then, am I correct that these are the editors’ expressed, present preferences:
LENGTH: Short adventures, 5,000 to 8,000 words are ideal.
CAMPAIGN SETTING: Eberron particularly and Forgotten Realms are favored.
DUNGEON SETTING: Unexpected or exceptional settings, rather than the traditional underground labyrinth, are the ideal, and trips to rarely used planes are good.
THEMES TO AVOID: Spiders, aranea, Shar, pirates, dinosaurs, Hell, the Abyss, and Savage Tide themes.
Have the editors expressed preferences beyond these?
Do the editors ever discuss a good but not perfect query with an author? For instance, I submitted several queries recently listing sizes above 5,000 to 8,000 words. I could, however, provide sweet manuscripts for most of them within that range. If length is the problem, is there room for a dialogue about it, or is a flat rejection the norm?
I'd be very grateful for any help!
I wish I could help Ted. However, I just start problems, I don't fix them. ~smiles~ Good luck with you resubmitting your adventure.
Ted, you've summed up the current state of queries beautifully. The blackhole thread is probably the best place to lurk to get updates on writers' meetings and the range of dates of submissions the editors are working on.
As a bit of a tip, regardless of the use of dinosaurs in the Savage Tide AP, James Jacobs is a total sucker for dinos (look at his avatar) and if used really well in an adventure could go a long way impressing him. I've found that the editors dislike a good amount of critters from Monster Manual 2, so if you use material from it you should present it in a really compelling way. It's a harder sell, but not undoable.
Hope that helps a bit. And thanks for the kind words above about "Fiends Embrace".
Steve, why do the editors not seem to like the Monster Manual II? I thought that it had some interesting monters in it.
Steve, why do the editors not seem to like the Monster Manual II? I thought that it had some interesting monters in it.
Not the whole book, per se. But enough of its contents to justify a heads up when using it. As to why? I don't really know. I expect James or one of his henchmen will probably see this at some point and comment. Conversely, there are things in there they really like. IMO, it has a lot to do with the mechanics of the monsters in it and the work involved in checking it for updates and the fact that the CRs are suspect more than any of the other monster books.
Yeah, I'd imagine it has to do with the ca-ray-zee CR's more than anything.
Yeah, I'd imagine it has to do with the ca-ray-zee CR's more than anything.
Personally, the MM2 is one of my favorite books to use in my games. I agree, the CRs are waaaaay off on a lot of monsters. But I find that a problem with all the monster books. I use the CR system as a very general guideline, not as gospel.
The CRs are suspect (James said as much in another thread this weekend - think it was the "Black Hole"), also it is written in 3.0-esse (translation: more work for an over worked editor). There probably are a few "Lava Children" in the mix. Monsters that are just plain unloved for one reason or another. I personally take that as a challenge to do something with said monsters (assuming of course they aren't actually Lava Children;). The fact so many of the MM2 crowd shows up in the Shackled City Adventure Path though lends support to the idea that it isn't dislike for the book, but rather an issue of extra work.
GGG
My first website looked a heck of a lot worse!
Ashenvale, it looks like Lilith, the Demon Queen of Artwork and Brain Eating, has just gotten some competition!
Hey, Lilith, can we take a peek at your websites? I love seeing what other artists are doing in our genre! What are their addresses?
-Ted