How do you order a +2 weapon?


3.5/d20/OGL

The Exchange

What would you say to the shop-owner or smith?
Grendor: I need a +2 battleaxe.
smith: What the hell is a "+2"?!?
Grendor: It is a modifier to increase my attack bonus and damage output.
smith: Attack bonus?!? Are you daft? What the hell are you talking about?
Grendor: GGrrrrrrr.
Smith: I do have a magic axe that has an edge keener than you would find on an ordinary axe. I also have one that sheathes itself in flames whenever it's owner wishes. Maybe one of them will do?
Grendor: I just want a +2 battleaxe.

I can figure out how to describe the other weapon properties but the +# enhancement bonuses I just can't figure out.
What type of description do you guys use to denote the difference between a +2 and a +3 weapon?
FH

The Exchange

* I hope this thread doesn't magically disappear like the last one.*

FH


Fake Healer wrote:

What would you say to the shop-owner or smith?

Grendor: I need a +2 battleaxe.
smith: What the hell is a "+2"?!?
Grendor: It is a modifier to increase my attack bonus and damage output.
smith: Attack bonus?!? Are you daft? What the hell are you talking about?
Grendor: GGrrrrrrr.
Smith: I do have a magic axe that has an edge keener than you would find on an ordinary axe. I also have one that sheathes itself in flames whenever it's owner wishes. Maybe one of them will do?
Grendor: I just want a +2 battleaxe.

I can figure out how to describe the other weapon properties but the +# enhancement bonuses I just can't figure out.
What type of description do you guys use to denote the difference between a +2 and a +3 weapon?
FH

If you want to role-play it out, I would ask for "An enchanted battleaxe - a rare one, that hasn't been magicked on by some apprentice. I've got real money to spend for a real mage that might take a week off to make just what I want."

That seems to speak '+2' in the words of a fighter-type, to me.

M


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I don't see why it's necessary to call it something different in-game.

Enchanters know that it takes a certain amount of money and effort to enchant a magic sword. There are five specific stages of enchantment that can be offered for the purpose of directly improving a weapon's ability to hit better and do more damage. Each such stage requires a certain added cost in materials and time.

Just like we know the difference between Windows 95, Windows 98, and Windows ME, enchanters know the difference between adding one, two, or five such levels of enchantment to an item.

If you want something else to call them, you could try "Stage One" through "Stage Five" of basic enchantment. But (in my opinion) it should come back to that sort of naming in the end.


Fake Healer wrote:
What type of description do you guys use to denote the difference between a +2 and a +3 weapon?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html

The Exchange

Vegepygmy wrote:
Fake Healer wrote:
What type of description do you guys use to denote the difference between a +2 and a +3 weapon?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html

I always love an OotS reference.

So maybe I could just say "an enchantment of the 3rd stage with the ability to make the blade sheathed in an aura of cold" to describe a +3 greatsword of frost.
OK
any other ideas? I like adding flavor to the dialog so keep it coming.

FH


Okay, I just tried to write a post, but it was devoured. Watch it come back after I write this and make me just repeat myself. What I said was somewhat along the lines with Cintra's remark that I just added a slightly different name.

Ages ago, enchanters in elven lands were known to be able to place potent magic upon any weapon with a single rune. Additional runes addded incrementally better performances. The knowledge to do this has since been lost (this can be a generic excuse, but I actually have a little more detail behind it in my world so it doesn't seem so hokey), but weapons can still be enchanted in such ways, though it requires more steps and energy than those ancient spellsmiths used. The naming convention remains as well, so you have a "one rune" weapon and a "two rune" weapon and so on.

The Exchange

Saern wrote:

Okay, I just tried to write a post, but it was devoured. Watch it come back after I write this and make me just repeat myself. What I said was somewhat along the lines with Cintra's remark that I just added a slightly different name.

Ages ago, enchanters in elven lands were known to be able to place potent magic upon any weapon with a single rune. Additional runes addded incrementally better performances. The knowledge to do this has since been lost (this can be a generic excuse, but I actually have a little more detail behind it in my world so it doesn't seem so hokey), but weapons can still be enchanted in such ways, though it requires more steps and energy than those ancient spellsmiths used. The naming convention remains as well, so you have a "one rune" weapon and a "two rune" weapon and so on.

So would a +2 keen longsword be a Three Rune weapon? Or a Two Rune Keen weapon?

I like the idea and it would make identifying items easier.
Make a spell like "Read Rune" to decipher the runes or someone could learn to read runes.
Neat, need more info.

FH


Well, I simply developed it to explains away the "+" system, so I would say "two rune keen longsword." I hadn't really thought about expanding it beyond that, but the possibilities are certainly there to explore. You could have spellcraft checks to identify the runes, first learning the school of magic and then, at a much higher DC, the exact enchantment. Or the "read rune" style spell you mentioned. Since the knowledge to actually use those individual runes has been lost in my world, the other methods (the DMG ones) are used and don't necessarily leave an identifiable mark on the weapon. Again, however, this could definately work for your game however you see fit. Don't you use some form of slot-system in weapons dealing with gems to represent special abilities?

So, you could incorporate runes as the base "+" of the weapon, and then use the gem sockets to add special abilities. It might require a bit of retooling when it came to pricing conventions, but otherwise seems pretty good.


"Hello, I would like to buy a magical battle axe. What have you got?"

"A bunch for 2,000 gold, and some for 8,000 gold. The 8,000 gold ones are twice as good."

"I will buy one of the 8,000 gold ones then. Good day to you!"

Problem SOLVED.


How about "I'd like a sword that has been enchanted twice-over."


Considering the actual frequency that such items occur, even if only in adventuring circles, and the definate nature of each level of enhancement, is it really so hard to believe the residents of a world would come up with their own naming conventions for the various forms?


How about this: you can't buy magic weapons.

How likely is a smith to have the magical expertise and raw materials to turn out magic weapons. Even if you were to come up with some sort of way to work it out, he wouldn't know how maical it was. And how likely is he to know what to charge for it?

Magic items should never be for sale.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Development

Luke Fleeman wrote:

How about this: you can't buy magic weapons.

How likely is a smith to have the magical expertise and raw materials to turn out magic weapons. Even if you were to come up with some sort of way to work it out, he wouldn't know how maical it was. And how likely is he to know what to charge for it?

Magic items should never be for sale.

I'm mostly in that camp. My only exceptions are the rare elite blackmarket or temples to certain deities. And in those cases I rely on value to denote level of enchantment. Yeppers, that there battleaxe is gonna set you back a little over eight-thousand golden gryphons.


I never really had a system for this. Here are some of the things I remember having said:

"There are two layers of protective dweamor upon this armor."

"The sword is enchanted with the first circle of enchantment."

"This dagger, named *Backup*, has 2 circles of enchantment and, as indicated by the etching of a stag upon the handle, allows the user incredible speed in attacks."


Luke Fleeman wrote:

How about this: you can't buy magic weapons.

How likely is a smith to have the magical expertise and raw materials to turn out magic weapons. Even if you were to come up with some sort of way to work it out, he wouldn't know how maical it was. And how likely is he to know what to charge for it?

Magic items should never be for sale.

Maybe in a small town, but in even a large town (pop 2001-5000), you can find on average at least 1 5th level wizard, which fits the caster level requirement for Craft Magic Arms and Armor. In a metropolis of 25,000 or more, you are likely to find around 8 seventh level wizards. It should be rare to find NPCs that can create magical weaponry, but not impossible. And once these weapons hit the secondary market (via theft, inheritance, or retirement), I would think that they would be treated like we treat fine jewelry today - if the sale was between reputable sources, the weapon would likely have been checked by appraisals both magical and nonmagical, and its properties would be noted on a card that would be displayed with the weapon. Likely the proprietor of a magical arms and armor store would use illusion magic to display the wares, and keep the actual items in a locked and magically sealed vault.

TK


I always sort of assumed (a dangerous route I know) that in a world with magic there would be a vocabulary appropriate to such conversations for example I am in the car business I talk to my peers about units being, allocated, ordered, in system, scheduled, bucked, blended, trim, body, paint, produced, in transit, on temp delay, edit hold, compat hold, shipped (when they are aren't), in stock (when they are shipped), etc. and all of the people who speak my language know what I am talking about. And +1 or +2 etc. is simply how the "industry appropriate terms translate from common (or whatever) in 21st century English. Its one of the bonuses of gaming versus actually writing.

But failing that I would reference the cost rather than a the bonus - money translates pretty clearly (asumming again - that hte enchanters, sales persons, are honest).

The Exchange

Luke Fleeman wrote:

How about this: you can't buy magic weapons.

How likely is a smith to have the magical expertise and raw materials to turn out magic weapons. Even if you were to come up with some sort of way to work it out, he wouldn't know how maical it was. And how likely is he to know what to charge for it?

Magic items should never be for sale.

Yeah, I'm in a group where the DM also believes like you and I hate it. I think it is a tactic used by DM's who are scared of the consequences of allowing players the freedom to choose how to equip their characters. My DM also ditched spiked chains and started us off at horribly low stats (I am 11th level and have a 12 int and 13 dex....my highest stats.).

I want to play D&D, not a stripped down D&D "Lite" that is colored by one person's bias.
It's a magical game set in a magical land with magical creatures and people who cast magical spells. I want magic.
I am not saying that your way is wrong, if it works for your group then great. My group has lost 3 players due to frustration at the rulings and limitations imposed and will be losing a couple more when I leave. It doesn't work for me or most of my group.
I am asking how to describe an action in game which is detailed in the rulebooks, if you house-rule out that option then you have nothing to offer to this discussion. I really don't care if you think magic items should be available for sale or not, I asked how to describe their sale.
FH


The fact that you can't imagine how buying magic items like routine commodities in a catalogue would work is a sign of the idea's ludicrousness.

The Exchange

Faraer wrote:
The fact that you can't imagine how buying magic items like routine commodities in a catalogue would work is a sign of the idea's ludicrousness.

Its not that I can't imagine it. It is that I am trying to figure out the lingo that a FANTASY world would use to describe it. If I subscribed to your line of reasoning, then me trying to figure out a vocal component to a spell would be a sign of the "idea of casting spells" ludicrousness. How would a dragon breathe cold, acid, fire, lightning? It is a FANTASY world, thats how.

Thanks for your input. Useless.

FH


Wow things are starting to get spicy.

As to where is the smith who can craft it - the wealth tables for towns (yes there is one) gives a clue as to how rare the game designers envision such items. As do the caster levels needed to create them - my worlds don't have shops with comprehensive collections of magic items - the best shops may have a few - the best smiths or tailors may be able to craft - but not necessarily.

I take it FH you didn't like the "+2 is how we translate it into english rationale" you want poetry. Okay.

+1 - I want a weapon that carries with in its steel the skill of trained warrior

+2 - I want a weapon the resonates with skill of hardened veteran

+3 - I want want a weapon that hums with the expertise of a master swordsman

+4 - I want a weapon thats moves with a heroes grace

+5 - I want a weapon worthy of the gods

Seriously though, if the magic were there the language to discuss it would be too - and probably units of measure - similar to +1 or +2 would evolve as well. But it would sound as mundane as +1 or +2. I mean gems have carats (color, cut and clarity), gold has carats and weight, music, art - those are a more vague but don't require the same type of quantification.

Out of curiousity - how do you address the same issue withh regard to character level, class level, spell level, movement, damage resistance - I wouldn't be against it, but if you try to figure out appropriate terms for all such quanitfied attributes - well you would have gaming sessions most heavily perfumed with the poetry of gamers.


Faraer wrote:
The fact that you can't imagine how buying magic items like routine commodities in a catalogue would work is a sign of the idea's ludicrousness.

Or evidence that someone is not understanding what is being said/wishes to put forth no effort required to come up with a solution, not that such an endeavor is very hard.

Look: MAGIC DRIVES D&D. On one hand, the game is nothing without it. Even a low-magic world has magic. It's integral to the game as we know it in the core rulebooks and every incarnation of them that has existed back since basic 1E.

Now, even if your world is akin to some medieval Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire, where there is no strong government present that could actually step up to regulate and promote magic items, they do exist, and they are going to be sought after. They are a trade item, like gold and spice and silk. Even more so, since the profit on a magic sword is probably a lot better than on most spice runs to the Near and Far East.

Even if there is only a mage or two in every other large city or greater that can actually make magic items, the world is pretty big, it's been around a long time (meaning many magic items can have been made already and be in circulation), and the business is lucrative enough that there will be a trade in such commodities.

And to be honest, the way magic items are thrown around in adventures, as I indicated above, it's pretty obvious that they aren't that rare.

Villains are decked out in magic. Where did they get it? Someone had to make it. It raises just as many questions and problems as if there were magic shops.

Now, don't you think, in a world where magic is so important and prized, there would be some type of NAMING CONVENTION for the basic enhancements? Even just that: Minor, Basic, Greater, Superior, and Supreme Enhancements, corresponding to each "+" value. It's not hard.

WHOEVER sells the magic is going to have to have some way to appraise it, and soon he's going to find there are five categories of similar enhancements, so rather than bumbling around like a moron, he's going to name them to help sell them to those seeking to buy.

None of this is radical or rocket science. It's basic trade. If you are afraid that will introduce banking and stocks into your game and make it Lawyers and Accountants instead of D&D, fine. That's actually a logical nonsequitur (sp?), but it's your perogative.

I agree completely with FH. If you have a world where magic is so rare that no one would bother naming the properties of the weapon, that's fine. Don't post. What was asked for were naming conventions in reasonable world where magic is available, since people in the world have no concept (presumably) that they are simply characters in a game and the magic on the sword is a mechanical device to explain and abstract concept of "betterness."

I also agree with FH that, while magic shouldn't be dime-a-dozen, limiting players from it unduly in a game that is built partially around the concept of having it seems unfair to them. But, that's not the point of this thread.

Liberty's Edge

Faraer wrote:
The fact that you can't imagine how buying magic items like routine commodities in a catalogue would work is a sign of the idea's ludicrousness.

Sebastian!!!!!

You asked,....yesterday...
No, it's not you, brah.


Why not have a smith who makes really really good swords, but doesn't really know he's enchanting them? A savant of sorts (not the class), who merely really really enjoys what he does and good things come out of it.


If you want poetry, think about how fantasy novelists present magic weapons, or ones that (if not magical) at least have a certain aura about them in the popular imagination:

a. If magic weapons are pretty rare, most of them will be named, often with runes etched in the blade. A +3 or greater weapon is probably famous enough to have been mentioned in historical accounts and bard's tales. A +1 or 2 might not have worldwide fame, but probably at least local fame. ("That's goblinbiter, as used to be old Baron Blackhand's sword") So an appropriate bardic knowledge or knowledge (history) or (nobility/royalty) check might tell you that this is a blade of "local fame", or "noted fame" or "great renown" etc, and any special properties the blade has that might not be obvious. (Think Tolkien--"Sting" was probably a +1 dagger, thus didn't come with an inscription, but Bilbo named it, and Gandalf could tell it was forged in Gondolin many ages past; Glamdring and Orcrist were named with elf-runes on the blades but were not as famous as such legendary weapons as Narsil, the blade wielded by Elendil whose shards were reforged by Elrond's smiths into a new blade for Aragorn).

b. Magic weapons are probably made by a fairly small number of elite master craftsmen with magical expertise. They put their marks on the blade, and a bard or weapons expert could tell you that famous bladesmith A made weapons that were even more famous than famous bladesmith B, etc. After a while, your players will figure out the poetic code, but it sounds more "in character." (Think about master bladesmiths in Japan, who would have been known in this fashion).

c. Maybe there's a standard marking system for ranking quality of enchanted blades, created by the swordsmith's guild and adopted in cities throughout the campaign world/region. (Something like "heron-mark blades" in Robert Jordan's wheel of time series.

d. Maybe the kind of steel that can hold various levels of enchantment is different. (Think of Valyrian steel in GRR Martin's Westeros). Everyone knowledgeable about the subject can recognize Cardonian steel and Ice-forged steel and Verbanian redsteel, and they know which is better than which.

OK, back to work. Hope this feeds some thoughts.

Dark Archive RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

You want to know what we do for our games? I'll tell you:

+1 - Apprentice Enchantment
+2 - Journeyman Enchantment
+3 - Artisan Enchantment
+4 - Master Enchantment
+5 - Grand Master Enchantment

"I'm looking for an enchanted sword. I have a few thousand crowns burning a hole in my pocket, so, have you got anything with an Artisan's enchantment on it or better lying about?"

Things like shocking, flaming, and frost are self-evident and they are referred to as such in our games. 'Keen' is often referred to as having an 'arcane edge' and other more esoteric enchantments vary on a case-by-case basis. We usually just go with whatever sounds right.

Dark Archive RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Luke Fleeman wrote:
How likely is a smith to have the magical expertise and raw materials to turn out magic weapons. Even if you were to come up with some sort of way to work it out, he wouldn't know how maical it was. And how likely is he to know what to charge for it?

You're absolutely right. And for that matter, how likely is it for an automobile manufacturer to own their own mines for the iron ore needed to make steel to be machined into the other parts of the car? And how likely is it for that same company to own a computer parts manufacturing plant to provide them with the microchips and circuit boards they need to make the electronics function? Oh, wait... THEY DON'T NEED TO! Look under the hood of your car sometime. I'll guarantee that every piece in there does not have the same brand name on it that the car does.

It makes perfect sense that in a major city, a master craftsman (one obviously capable of making masterwork weapons) would enter into a joint business venture with a spellcaster who may have little to no knowledge of blacksmithing himself but his expertise in enchanting said items increases the value of the blacksmith's work considerably so the blacksmith is inclined to share a portion (probably a large portion) of his proceeds with the wizard in order to maintain an amicable business agreement. It's just clever business management, that's all. As for the blacksmith not knowing how much a given enchantment increases the value by, the wizard says "Okay, it cost me 2000 gold to do this enchantment for you and I expect to make that money back when you sell it. Charge accordingly."

Blacksmith: Hmm... this sword cost me 180gp of raw materials and a couple days of my time to make. I can sell it for... 310gp. That's 130gp profit!
Wizard: I can add an enchantment on there for 1500gp that would easily command 2000gp in the open market.
Blacksmith: So, instead of making 130gp, I could make 630gp?
Wizard: Well, I would want 65% of course.
Blacksmith: Oh, so, I would get about 220gp instead of 130gp then without any extra effort on my part?
Wizard: Exactly.
Blacksmith: ...I'd have to be stupid to say no!

Basic economics. Gotta love 'em.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Heathansson wrote:
Faraer wrote:
The fact that you can't imagine how buying magic items like routine commodities in a catalogue would work is a sign of the idea's ludicrousness.

Sebastian!!!!!

You asked,....yesterday...
No, it's not you, brah.

Yay!

The ideas on this thread are generally excellent. I tend to do something along the lines of various runes as well. It's the same system I use for describing spell levels. There are 9 great runes of arcane knowledge, and each spell is based upon one of these runes. So, all 1st level spells incorporate an understanding of the first rune, and so on. That way, when someone has to describe caster level in game they can say "I have mastered the 5th rune" and people know that the person can cast 5th level spells.


Well, for those of you who just like to say +2 sword, it should be obvious by now that those of us who have more poetic ways of saying it are still metagaming. I guess it's inevitable!?!

*ends self-disparagement*


I guess I'm somewhere between Faraer's opinion and some of the others more definate "knowing" what plusses are. In general, I don't think that most people, for example, know that there are 1st through 9th level spells, but I think, for example, that people may know of low, mid, and high level spells.

I further think that some adventurers might know that there is a difference between a standard magical weapon and an epic level one, and that weapons created by more powerful spellcasters are increasingly more accurate and dangerous against opponents, but "in game" I have a hard time pinpointing the "plus."

Of course, using this internal game logic, a spellcaster that can cast "low level" spells could make a +1 or +2 weapon (which I imagine in "real life" would be hard to tell the difference between). A caster that can cast "mid level" spells can make weapons that are +3 or +4, and a caster that is capable of casting the most powerful spells can make +5 or better weapons.

While I can see some weaponsmiths having deals with wizards to sell +1 or +2 weapons (or +1 flaming, etc.), I have a hard time picturing a blacksmith having a +5 flaming undead bane weapon waiting for someone to come in with enough gold to buy it. While I can picture some mid level "hedge wizards" enhancing weapons for cash, somehow I don't picture Ssaz Tam or Khelben Arunsun trying to raise money by making one of those +5 anything bane weapons and subletting it to someone else. By the time a wizard is that powerful, I can't picture them having the time to make weapons like this.

On the other hand, I can picture some temples being willing to make weapons that are able to further their goals, to be given to suitable adventurers, for a proper donation. But I wouldn't get too specific on the exact "plusses" a weapon has, at least as far as "ordering" a weapon.


I dont see the churches doing it if the Wizard's aren't

then again i come from Khoirvaire, where artificiiers handle all this and magic items come out of a can.

that said knowledge that their are 9 levels of spells is in game knowledge from spellcraft, the idea that their are obvious signs of Sword Pluzwone vs Killzore the might pluzfive should not be counter intuitive. As for the people with the Magic is never sold rule, I'm really glad your wizards and preists all live sheltered lives and never have to pay for anything really , i am happy for them.

D&D is a parable for our experiance and money/economy is so entrenched in our experiance is it a surprise that it is so entrenched in our games?''Logos


As far as economics go though, it doesn't really pay for a high level wizard to create a magic item for profit. He can cast a divination or teleportation or what have you for someone, and make more money than if he spends his time making magic items, and doesn't have to sacrifice anything of himself to do so (i.e. XP).

That means that most high level weapons and armors wouldn't be "for hire" items, even if you do have items for sale, but rather items that are made for a specific purpose. A high level wizard might want his bodyguard to have good arms and armors, or a wizard that has decided to aid the forces of good against a particular threat might help make a demonslaying sword, for example, but its not the best option for him as far as a money making endevor.


Saern wrote:


Now, even if your world is akin to some medieval Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire, where there is no strong government present that could actually step up to regulate and promote magic items,

That's ridiculous. In Medieval periods, local lords were very powerful - this is different than centralized power; this is a person with near unlimited power in his local area. Afeudal king might lack centralized, national power, but be powerful in his local lands. A local lord is still incredibly powerful, and CAN regulate what happens in his lands. Most non-nobles were restricted from owning weapons, and weapons were not readily available. This is just not in Medieval Europe- look at Feudal Japan, too. And if you want to get historically accurate, there weren't any true stores or merchants until the Renaissance, for the most part. So they don't really happen. And a spice run is profitabel because I can sell all the spice, and people need it. Most people don't NEED a magic sword.

That being said, I know this is fantasy. Fine. But the fantasy comes from those things mentioned- monsters, magic, weird places, etc. Not in altering common, everyday things. We should not just cease to apply logic to everything because it is fantasy.

So, using logic, who would sell a magic item? The thing being mentioned here is the ability to purchase a weapon you want, when you want. This implies that most weapon dealers should peddle them.

Look at the cost of a +1 sword. 2000 gp, right? In a weapon dealer's store, how easy are these to sell? How many people have 2000 gp to spend every day? Who has access to that kind of cash? The dealer would have no incentive to carry a weapon that he could not ever sell. Even with adventurers out there to buy them, what percentage of people are adventurers? A weapon dealer would not carry a magic sword, because they would be hard up to sell them; who could buy them regularly enough to make it profitable? A weapon dealer would have to put out the cash to a wizard to make a sword he might not sell. An amount of cash that might break him. And he could use it to make weapons who would be able to sell.

I could see a wizard taking a commission to make an item, maybe. If you get him the cash, materials, and compensation for his xp expenditure, he woudl prbably do it. When he isnt busy doing things for himself, his allies, or his lord. Fine.

So, suppose we ignore these things, and you can walk into any store, like its Walmart, and buy ANYTHING you want, whenever you want. There are two considerations: First, this is not modern US, and your assumptions on availability and convenience might be wrong. Second, what woud prevent evil guys from beign equally well outfitted? And they might actually steal the items, not pay for them. This makes the dealer wary of carrying them, and your foes equally well outfitted- if not better.

Ok, so ignore all that stuff. Assume dealers always carry what you want. Do you really believe a dealer woudl carry a shop full of all kinds of different magic items available? How could he afford that? How much space does he need to carry all of that? And doesn't it sound silly?

So, even after economic logic rules it out, and the powers-that-be might not let it happen, and you may not be able to find a wizard to do it, there are reasons you can't.

In game reasons.

FH accuses DMs of trying to limit their players from outifitting their characters the way they want. This is not a right; if you want a +5 vorpal sword, you do not get it. This freewheeling equipping would spell disaster. And guess what? Your DM has a job to regulate and balance the game. He needs to be able to control what you get, so that the game runs smoothly and will not get out of control. He needs to be able to make sure there is not munchkinry ruining his campaign. That's his job. Sorry.

A DM has a responsibility to keep the game smooth. So deal with it. A DM who does this will soon have players strolling down to every store to stock up on Staves of the Magi and Wands of Fireballs whenever convenient.

I agree there is would be some naming convention, or description. But still, what logic would allow stores everywhere to carry them?

That's why I don't allow them in my campaign. Maybe you will, and good for you. But I am telling you why I don't, and why it seems ridiculous.

The Exchange

Luke, I never said I expected a store to stock EVERY conceivable weapon, what I asked was the in game lingo I would use to order it. I don't expect a store to carry the specific weapon that I want but I do expect to be able to walk in and say "I would like to buy a +1 Keen scimatar of frost" and get it within a reasonable waiting period. Not months. I expect most weapon shops to carry a good amount of masterwork items ready to be enchanted by the local caster who has a deal with the weapon shop. Who has the money to buy magical weapons? Nobles, wealthy merchants, successful businessmen, people that plunder ancient tombs, etc.
Yeah, a peasant would find it inconcievable that someone would spend 8,000 gp on a silly sword, I find it inconcievable that people spend $5,000 on a toilet, or $200,000+ on a car, but if I was in the business of auto racing I need the best tools to try to win the race. If my job is plundering tombs and saving the world, I should have the best tools available. I would make an elite military analogy but I have no ready knowledge of the cost of military equipment except that it is very high compared to what I as a citizen would consider reasonable.

The D&D world is whatever you want it to be. I think in MY D&D world that I should have access to the proper tools to do my job. DMs tend to like to impose limits on weapons under the guise of "keeping characters balanced" but fail to limit the opposition (i.e.monsters)in response to the limits they have imposed. A good DM can adjust the encounter to match a character's abilities instead of railroading and shoe-horning a player into a "balanced", generic role.
In short, don't make 4-8 players adjust to you, you adjust to them, after all you are trying to give a group of people a fun time, right? Give them what they want. I don't find it alot of fun when most of my group slowly drops out over the summer because 1 person won't adjust to his players and refuses to acknowledge their desire for change in the game.

FH


KnightErrant, please don't confuse the desire for a naming convention with subscription to the magical "Wal-Mart" philosophy.

Luke Fleeman wrote:
The thing being mentioned here is the ability to purchase a weapon you want, when you want.

If you mean that's the point of this thread, you're wrong. The point of this thread is to come up with an internal naming convention for weapons so that people can tell the shopkeep exactly what they want without breaking character and thus the verisimilitude so many of the very DMs on this board claim to crave and constantly yell at "munchkins" for trying to destroy.

Unfortunately, it's taking some major detours because people can't seem to grasp some basic principles.

And I'm glad to see that you agree such a convention should exist.

Now, let's look at the statement that no shops selling magic items would exist because it isn't profitable. Ahem:

What?

Again, I'm not saying that there would be epic weapons or rods of wonder or staves of power lying around everywhere. Hell no! But +1 weapons would not be hard to come by, from a wealthy man's view, and well-equipped shops might even be able to smith some +2s. The world-reknown enchanter in the City of Overyonder can even make +3 weapons and bestow other mysitcal properties to your sword, but he only serves the most elite clientelle (sp? Don't care right now).

And while Mr. Archmage of Bigimportantness certainly doesn't have time or the interest to open a measly enchanting shop, the 5th level wizard in the City of Morecommon certainly finds it a lucrative business.

He spends 1,000gp to enchant the sword? He sells it for 2,000 and ends up ahead the exact same amount as he spent! Sounds like a good ratio to me. Kind of like the sailing expeditions to far corners of the world for those spices, which cost more in their day to send than it does to launch a space shuttle now, speaking relative to the economy of the time.

Who could buy it? As FH said, adventurers! Nobles! Wealthy merchants! All those damned guys building tombs filled with magical traps and all those guys running around with signs that say "PCs Kill Me" and have +1 swords and +1 armor.

In otherwords, the elite. There's always enough, and they're always willing to pay enough, to make markets that depend solely on their patronage, just like FH pointed out with today's extravagent expenditures (and that style of spending by the wealthy, which is rediculously far out of the reach of the common man, has always gone on in advanced societies).

I agree, the fantasy part of D&D is the magic and monsters, and we shouldn't suspend everyday common sense. Like, say, deciding that the existance of such things is in it's own little bubble and has no effect on the rest of the world. Like, say, thinking there wouldn't be a market that exists for this stuff.

I'm not promoting equipping every commoner on the street with swords, and every guardsman with masterwork goods, and everyone above that with magical equipment. However, if you look at the Dungeon Master's Guide, there are wealth guildlines for characters by level. I really, really doubt that a 20th level party without a shred of magical equipment can be expected to ever take on a balor or a dragon of appropriate CR. So, it is in the DM's portfolio's of responsibility to make sure his players are equipped for the job at hand. He doesn't have to hand out treasure like candy at Halloween, but the players aren't going to have a lot of fun if you deny them an assumed ability because it interferes with your theory of economics for your world, unless you stated going into the game that such was the case. And then, I would hope, the DM isn't having any fun when his players aren't, so the whole thing can go sour.

Again, I can't agree more with FH. It's a lot easier to make a minor, negligible, and almost totally meaningless adjustment to better the experience of 4 people (thereabouts) than it is to ask them to sacrifice for the one's tiny differences in frame of reference on the availability of magic items.

And there shouldn't be a shop in every settlement from thorp up to metropolis. I personally hated the line in Dawning of a New Age, Dungeon 135, where it said the Blessed Angels could teleport anywhere and come back with the exact party-killing item they needed in 1d4+1 hours or some such. That seemed rediculous and heavy handed to me.

However, I would say that at least every small city and up, if not most large towns and even a healthy dose of small ones, would have someone around that had the ability to commision magic items for clients. Not have them lying around, but know someone that has a deal and could be corresponded with to equip the party with thier needed gear. This is also a great time to institute the oft-desired "downtime" between levels.

If you stress to the party that the treatment they are getting is special, you avoid ruining your perspective of the world, and their's for that matter, while still allowing your party the tools needed to do their job.

Now that I've clearly stated that I'm not in favor of magical Wal-Marts, anyone who now says I am has just plugged into a large neon sign saying, "I'm an Idiot Unwilling to Read Your Post."

Liberty's Edge

The thing is---
Some people think you shouldn't be able to buy magic weapons at the local made-to-order smithy.
Some think it's hunky dory.
That being said, I'm assuming fakey thinks it's hunky dory, and it doesn't ruin his gaming.
So, as such, fakey has posited an interesting thought experiment: how do you RELATE IN CHARACTER to the smithy in question your wish to acquire a +2 sword.
It's a difficult question to answer, which as a thought experiment, IMO, gives it great merit. It gives me something to ponder, anyway. The rest is just philosophical disagreement.
My first thought--go to the butcher, buy a side of beef, test the sword on it. Make an appraise roll, I'd say dc 15 off the top of my head. That's how it was sorta done back in the day. It's like buying a diamond; you don't really know if it's a diamond or how good it is. The jewelry salesman is the only one who really knows, and there's no angle in it for him to tell you.


Saern, first: I don't want to get heated, but don't call me, or anyone else, and idiot. And don't spring up to say that you didn't, because you phrased it in such a way that makes any of thsoe disagreeing with you a memeber of such group. It makes you look bad and compromises your argument. In an earlier post you also told someone to not post. You have very eloquent arguments, and so it makes you look bad when you tell everyone who disagrees to not post or call them and idiot. Let your argument carry itself.

Second, a comment on how many people would buy a 2000 gp sword. Tell me what percentage of people you think would have access to that kind of cash. How many nobles, elites, and adventurers are there out there, and how many have 2000 gp to blow at any time.

Its a question as to whether anyone would get enough use out of it, and have the money to do it.

Youu keep bringing up the spice trips. A spice trip has something over +1 longswords. Spices are profitable because so many people wanted to use them, and could get use out of them. Why would a noble with a guard of 500 guys in armor and armed need a +1 longsword? But he does need to entertain and have luxury, like spices. Spice has a use among a larger segment of people, and is profitable because of this. Even then, you can't really compare the two, because no magical swords were for sale while spice runs were ongoing in this world. It is impossible to compare.

Anyways, if you want to have magic weapons for sale, wonderful. I don't. The only reason I brought up munchkinry was to point out that it can quickly get out of control, and lead to that. And I am against even +1s, because it causes a slippery slope that leads to demands for more being available for purchase.

I appreciate the interest of roleplaying the search for items, but I still dislike where it leads.

Lets move past this, then.

I think enchantment is best described as a comparative thing. A +1 sword is better than a masterwork, for example. So one might say, "this sword is enchanted so that it is more sharp, well balanced and strong than even the finest crafted blade."
A +2 might be enchanted to "twice the strength of the finest blade, and able to cleave through a man in even the weakest blows." And so on.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

I think if you use the D&D rules to try and model a midevil economy, you get:

1. A bad model of said economy and
2. A bad game.

Money and magic items are a game mechanic and should not be confused with the real world operation of supply and demand. The basis of the economic model doesn't make any sense - how do kobolds end up with more money than the averge villager? What do they spend it on? Why do they bother collecting it? In fact, all sorts of monsters have wealth in excess of a 2000 gp sword. Why is all the wealth in the campaign concentrated in the hands of the non-human populace? If those ogres can have a 2000 gp sword, I expect the king can afford one too.

Furthermore, the rules are designed to allow easy treasure flow. That's why magic items have gp values. That's why towns have rules for how expensive the most valuable item is that is available in a town.

Wealth is just another measurement of character advancement. The ability to spend that wealth to advance the characters is an important part of the game. It's the RAW. The walmart effect is assumed as part of those RAW. Restricting the ability of the characters to spend their wealth begs two questions: 1. Wtf are they supposed to do with the money the acquire other than spend it? and 2. How are they supposed to advance their characters using the wealth mechanic?

The "reality" based marketplace restrictions are the equivalent of saying that a character can't take a 10th level in monk because there aren't any 11th level monks in town. Yeah, that's realistic, and some people play that way, but it's not the RAW.

Now, obviously, this can go too far. Just as the DM wants to keep an eye on other methods of character advancement (non-core feats, spells, prestige classes, etc), the DM should keep an eye on the wealth method of character advancement. But the real game in town is the mechanics behind the wealth, not the real world way in which wealth is distributed and accumulated. The later has nothing to do with D&D except insofar as it helps explain the mechanics of the game.

The value of spice is irrelevant to this debate under the RAW. If you want to run a non-RAW game and cut down on magic items, rock on. Those games can be great if appropriate measures are taken to adjust the challenges (as FH mentioned). But the core rules assume the Wal-mart effect. It's up to a good DM to breath life into that Wal-mart effect and make the mechanic seem like its mimicing "reality," not vice-versa.


I would go up to the DM and slap him, saying "Look here, biach! I want a +2 sword and I want it NOW!!!" Then I would realize that my character will soon be nixed from the game! ~grins~ Does that answer your question, Fakey?


"I will take a +2 sword with fries and a drink." ~listens~ "Would I like that combo super sized? Sure! Make it a +2 two handed sword, large fries and drink." ~Listems again~ That will be about 8,000 gold, 12 silver, and 8 copper? Ok. I will pull my warhorse up to the window!"


~grins~ Sorry for the slight threadjacking. I will resume my serious side now. Thank you!


I like Fatespinners idea of apprentice, journeyman, artisan etc. enchantment, even if I would not recommend calling a fifth-level Wizard an apprentice to his face, lest he hits you with a fireball :-)
Perhaps it could be least enchantment, lesser enchantment, good enchantment, great enchantment, grand enchantment.

If you were to order a weapon (or other magic item), it would probably be more a question how much you want to spend, and how good you know the market prices for such goods. "You have 10.000 GP you want to spend on a magic weapon? No problem, come back next week, and it´s done. Yes, half that sum in advance should do nicely, thank you." In really big cities, there might even be some competition, but otherwise, its take it or leave it.

I imagine it not unlike buying used cars: you don´t really know what you get, but average values can be found out with some effort, and if you get about average qualities for about average prices, everybody is happy.

Stefan


Im seeing part of the arguement against selling magic items as being commoner wealth gain, it stands to reason that if items like that are for sale in big cities there will be a major trickle down (not that im a fan of that type of economics IRL) thus boosting what commoners earn by a large percent. You own a car im assuming, how much did that cost? several grand if not several 10 grands, millions of people own cars IRL why wouldnt many people have the funds for these magic items. Also, tell me if im wrong, but last i checked a normal HOUSE in the DMG is like 1000gp, how the heck could commoners pay that with 3 cp a week? Simple; they dont they earn more.

As to the normal thread hows this:

+1=least enchantment
+2=minor enchantment
+3=moderate enchantment
+4=greater enchantment
+5=legendary enchantment

or even simpler:

+1=Better than standard
+2=sharp
+3=sharper
+4=sharpest
+5=cuisinart =P


I apologize for loosing my temper earlier, but I am going to jump up and say I didn't call you an idiot, Luke. I don't want any hard feelings. In the orignal version of that post, it was much more beligerent, and I realized that it was going too far, and tried to tone it down to make sure that I wasn't calling anyone an idiot so far. However, after making it clear that I was not advancing the Wal-Mart phenomenon, I didn't want anyone continuing to suggest I was, since that would be a hair-brained move on their part showing that they didn't bother to read what I said.

I'm also going to offer up the defense that I was agreeing with Fake Healer earlier when I said, not that someone shouldn't post, but that they shouldn't post if they had nothing to offer to the topic at hand. The point of availability of magic items was brought up, and the OP, Fake Healer, indicated that he had no interest in discussing the availability of magic items, simply what to call them in game.

Again, I meant no offense, Luke.

Now, I'm done defending myself and I'm sorry that I drug the thread back that direction at all. But, it seems this thread has taken on a dual nature, so I'll be returning to that point directly.

Rhavin, that's a good call on the trickle-down effect. And while you're off on the cost of a normal horse by several multiples, the general assertion that there are many common items (a house, for example) that are well beyond a commoner's means. The whole DMG economic guidelines are screwey to begin with, as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, Sebastian is right. If one wants to run a game with less than average availability of magical goods, go for it! There are some considerations to take into account, but otherwise, it's fine. However, it is otherwise up to the DM to maintain game balance and bend the perception of that to fit the world and story.

One thing that can help the perception of sale of magic weapons is to also think about what else the enchanter is doing. He isn't just pumping out magic items to line shelves with (there's a pretty good Order of the Stick more or less about this, dealing with potions), nor is he just sitting there waiting for a commission. He is studying and doing "wizardly" things just like every other aspiring mage. Part of his study, however, has been to learn to enchant weapons. He then makes contacts with several local merchants and smiths, and tells them that if they ever have clients desiring such magic, he's willing to provide it for the proper price, which he will partially split with the merchant.

As shown in the DMG, 3.5 D&D assumes that there are a large number (almost unsettlingly so) of classed NPCs of significant level in towns and cities to provide such services when the need arises.

If that's still not doing it for a DM, there is one other route that allows the maintenance of game balance and party wealth in magic items without using magic stores whatsoever.

I had plans for a FR campaign a few months back, and though we only made it to about level 4, I had plans that when the party reached around level 8, and thus started wanting more magic than what they looted off their foes, the story would introduce them to a sun elf mage. A scholar, researcher, and spellcaster of moderate reknown, he was also, TA-DA, an enchanter. Thus, the party had ties to a mage who could make magic items for them at the appropriate costs, while not being a flat-out magic store, and certainly not a Wal-Mart. And it worked right into the story. It also maintained (or would have, if we had gotten that far) the notion that the party was recieving special treatment that few others in the world would ever get, while really just maintaining the wealth guidelines in the RAW. It also left me in complete control of what was available to the party without putting any real blockage on their wealth flow and related power acquisition.

So, allowing the party to arm themselves as they see fit, within reason, is not inherently contrary to maintaining a less "developed" or "regulated," for lack of better terms, feel to the buying of magic items.

Now, let's keep thinking of some names, if it is so desired, although the conventions posted so far are already pretty good as far as a basic, in-game method of translating the abstract RAW.

Scarab Sages

This would probably be easier if D&Ds magic system was more structured like some other systems. If this were Wheel of Time or Ars Magica we could say "This magnificent blade was created with a blend of three threads of the element of flame, 4 threads of earth to enhance its durability and one thread of air to make it lighter to weild and faster in the hands of a skilled swordsman." Of course this is not a real game formula but just an example.

Tam


Saern, your Sun Elf idea sounds perfectly likely to me. This sort of situation seems more logical to me. Both sides get a benefit, and the DM can still exercise control over this. I see no problem with that.

I guess what we can say for sure is that "to each his own."


I just wanted to take this opourtunity to apologize to FH to helping to derail the thread. As Saern pointed out, FH was looking for advice on a naming convention, not a debate on the feasability of the sale of magic items, and I lost track of that and got caught up in my own suppositions. I am sorry about this, as I realize you were looking for some creativity and not hypothetical arguements. Mea culpa.


Heavy sigh - basically folks are looking for an arty way to say +2 - like going to a mechanic and saying I want the belly of this vehicle modified so that it can endure longer on the road going farther between stops, I want the vehicle to be able to go twice as far as a normal unit of its type. Versus saying double the size of the gas tank. There might be lots of ways to say +2 but to the people of the game world - they would still hear +2, similar to the way we use currency, the is a $100 dollar bill, a C note, a benjamin, a hunge, whatever - all this term reference the same thing - it is lingo.

If you want an artful way to say +2 more power to you but that is a personal conceit. Don't get me wrong - I think thats great that your are trying to be more artful as opposed to mechanical - It just that there is nothing wrong with describing "mechanical" things with "mechanical" terminology. Which is effectively what +2 is in the context of the game. It is not (to my mind) metagame thinking it is simply the mechanical language for discussing magic in the context of the game. I would assume that however it was translated the individuals capable of crafting such items, and those who traded them on a regualr basis - would use clear "mechanical" type language - you could change the names to be "In Character" but the result is the same.

If you are heavy on dragon imagery in your game for example. "Magic" could be "Dragon Touched", Dragon Forged", "Dragon Marked" whatever - and the bonus could refer to the age category of the "dragon". So a Wyrmling blade, and cient blade, etc. But back to my point, that is just poetry to market the item or brag about it - it doesn't add any information. Further such cyphers would confuse communications between cultures - something thhat most gamers try to stay away from - take gold pieces - in game how many people use different weight coins from different regions, times, monarchies, and then cut coins - no most gamers use gold peices as a standard across all cultures in their game world - the plus system is the same kind of simplification to expedite play.

Well thats me there are lots of thing s to describe in a magical world. Trying to confuse the issue on item description. Its tough enough to fingure the things out as it is because (to make the game work) you need a clear breakdown of their stats.

My 2 cents again.


Actually, my way of dealing with buying magic items go like this...

PC Fighter "Greetings shopkeeper. I'd like to see your wares"

Shopkeeper "Certainly. I have the finest weapons this side of the Mistmarsh."

PC Fighter "Wow, that's a nice sword... How much?"

Shopkeeper "1000 gold pieces; It was made by Kog, the best weaponsmith in Greyhawk" (It's actually a Masterwork Longsword)

PC Fighter (rolls an Appraise check) "Well... I was looking for something more exotic. Got anything else?" (Rolls a diplomacy check)

Shopkeeper (rolls a sense motive to make sure he won't get robbed) "Hmmm. Well I do actually, come with me."

The shopkeeper takes the PC Fighter in a storeroom in the back where he opens a rather large coffer and takes out a roll of cloth. He unrolls it to reveal a fantastic-looking sword with rubies on it's pommel and strange runes upon its blade.

PC Fighter "Whoa."

Shopkeeper "I aquired this item last year when an elderly woman came to me and said her husband suddenly died in his sleep and she needed money to pay off the rest of her farm. It turns out that her husband was Lord Graycen Angelthorn, the man who fought back against the orc invasion twenty years ago. Let's just say she got a handsome price for this 'trinket' of her husband's... This is ORCBANE." (Actually a +1 longsword.)

PC Fighter "That IS a nice piece, would you be willing to part with it? I'm actually heading out on an expedition to the Pomarj Mountains; It would be nice to bring ORCBANE with me"

Shopkeeper "I wouldn't of shown it to you if I wasn't ready to sell it... 2500 gold pieces and it's all yours."

PC Fighter (Rolls an appraise, and fails) "Well, your price is a little steep, but I'll take it"

Ultradan


Of course, it's fun to roleplay like this the first few times the players seek out magic items. But after ten levels and two years of playing, we tend to quicken the pace a little for these 'mundane' purchases...

PC Fighter "Where can I find some magic items?"

(the rogue rolls a gather information check and gets 37)

DM "ok... With a full day of poking around here and there you manage to find these items for sale: there's a +2 keen longsword at Kog's, Boots of Levitation at the black market, and any potion under 300gp at your local temples; no more than three of the same potion."

Ultradan

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