Istivin Trilogy, The Harrowing & Other Questions (possible spoilers)


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Dark Archive

Currently I have been hard a work trying to create a campaign set in Sterich, with the Istivin trilogy from Dungeon issues #117-119. I have never played the original modules that the trilogy is based on but have read them a little. I have a few questions that I was hoping could be answered from the excellent people that post on these boards, maybe even from Mr. Greg the Man Vaughan himself.

1) In the conclusion of “Wrath of the Abyss” Dungeon #119 Mr. Vaughan states that Monte Cook’s the Harrowing from Dungeon #84 could be a great springboard to continue the drow plot in Sterich. What is the best way to incorporate this adventure as it seems after reading it that it would require a significant amount of changes to make it all make sense in the end.
2) Is there any published source that reveals who or what the “Azure Prince” is that controls the Mines at the Davish Headwaters, or has this adventure seed been left intentionally vague so that DM’s can do as they please. I have ideas to expand on this, however if something has been done on this already it could save me a lot of effort.
3) In Dungeon issue #117, In the Istivin: City of Shadows article Location #15: The Old Livery is this place an Inn as well as a stables or did adventurers just sleep in the stalls? Is that still the case today? Are there any suggestions of how I could incorporate the Livery and especially the finding of the Axe of the Keeper into an adventure?
4) I also wanted to use Location #19: the Circus in an adventure and am not exactly sure how to proceed with an adventure based on this, except that of the kidnapping of someone important and the PC’s looking into it, but that seems kinda clichéd, especially since there seems to be quite the long list of kidnappings and disappearances in the city already.

That’s all I can think of right now, I have quite a few notes and have read the message boards here on all that I could find. I look forward to your responses and will post with more as it comes to me.

Contributor

...it

should.......

have

been...

MIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINE!

Contributor

Savage_ScreenMonkey wrote:

Mr. Greg the Man Vaughan himself.

Oh no...that's really going to make him unbearable....

brace yourselves everyone....

Contributor

is this another relative of yours vaughn??

Scarab Sages

Sorry to cut into Richard's gnashing of teeth... but to help with point 4 you might take a look at "Pandemonium in the Veins" in Dungeon 96. It's a gladiator-themed adventure that might be close to what your looking for. It's 5th level, but I'm sure you could scale it up if needed. Don't short-sell the kidnappings and disappearances, though...it IS kind of an epidemic for Istivin.

Okay, resume gnashing, Richard.

Contributor

M'nnnaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar!

Scarab Sages

Richard Pett wrote:
M'nnnaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar!

Oh dear, he's swallowed his tounge again. This should snap him out... Dungeon 96, it should be mentioned, also contains the delightfully whimsical "Hollow Threat" sidetrek adventure for 1st level characters, written by, uh, someone...


Savage_ScreenMonkey wrote:


1) In the conclusion of “Wrath of the Abyss” Dungeon #119 Mr. Vaughan states that Monte Cook’s the Harrowing from Dungeon #84 could be a great springboard to continue the drow plot in Sterich. What is the best way to incorporate this adventure as it seems after reading it that it would require a significant amount of changes to make it all make sense in the end.

I was going to use the same path before our campaign derailed and rebooted to an Eberron campaign. In Fiendish Codex I (get this book if you plan to go into the Demonweb Pits), there is a mentioning of a gate from the Pits to Istivin. You could use an outbreak of arachnids within the city or have a community in some foothills call for help from the Marchioness regarding such an outbreak. In either case, the Marchioness can recruit the PCs to investigate. In this case, skip the entire wooded area altogether and go straight to the cave (I think it was a cave).

In my campaign, one of the PCs, a half-elf sorcerer and worshipper of Wee Jas, had been on a campaign long quest to discover the fate of his father who was a fighter among the Knights of Luna and went missing during the Greyhawk Wars. His thought to be dead mother, a suloise woman who "dissappeared" during a raid on a caravan, returns as a secretive patron who would reveal her identity as well as her true role as a Silent One of Keoland. She would inform her son of his father's fate, which is that he was kidnapped and is to be the sacrifice in the Harrowing.

This hook could lead the party on short Underdark adventure into the Vault of the Drow and the city of Erelhei-Cinlu (you can get a PDF copy of Dragon #298 available from Paizo, which features an update in the timeline of the Vault of the Drow) to find a means to enter the Demonweb Pits.

Perhaps you could work in a similar tie?

Additionally, you might want to wait for Expedition to the Demonweb Pits.

Dark Archive

Wow!
I wasn’t expecting a response so fast, especially one from Mr. Pett! Just to let you know your Styes adventure kicks ass! Currently the other DM of the Squeegee Clan (the name of our gaming group) is running it for us and it’s been a blast. To see more antics of the Squeegee Clan see the Shackled City: Company of the Copper Coin in the campaign journals section of the message boards.

Thanks for the reply on question #4, I,ll check that out. I also have some more questions I just thought up. So in addition to the above:

5) In Dungeon #118 in the DM notes its says that Pelman Drudd has a veritable army of Wild Coast mercenaries working for him. Aside from the location of the Wild Coast what constitutes a Wild Coast mercenary and what makes them so special.

6) Is there any more info on Sterich aside from the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer?

And thanks again all, and keep up the great work Richard

Contributor

Gavgoyle wrote:
Richard Pett wrote:
M'nnnaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar!
Oh dear, he's swallowed his tounge again. This should snap him out... Dungeon 96, it should be mentioned, also contains the delightfully whimsical "Hollow Threat" sidetrek adventure for 1st level characters, written by, uh, someone...

Are those the ropers again, Rich? You really need to do something about that, you crazy Brit!


Savage_ScreenMonkey wrote:

Wow!

I wasn’t expecting a response so fast, especially one from Mr. Pett! Just to let you know your Styes adventure kicks ass! Currently the other DM of the Squeegee Clan (the name of our gaming group) is running it for us and it’s been a blast. To see more antics of the Squeegee Clan see the Shackled City: Company of the Copper Coin in the campaign journals section of the message boards.

Thanks for the reply on question #4, I,ll check that out. I also have some more questions I just thought up. So in addition to the above:

5) In Dungeon #118 in the DM notes its says that Pelman Drudd has a veritable army of Wild Coast mercenaries working for him. Aside from the location of the Wild Coast what constitutes a Wild Coast mercenary and what makes them so special.

6) Is there any more info on Sterich aside from the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer?

And thanks again all, and keep up the great work Richard

The Wild Coast is the area between the mouth of the Selintan River and the Pomarj, it includes the towns of Fax, Narwell, and Safeton, IIRC. Part of it is in ruins (since the time of the Greyhawk Wars) due to the depredations of Turrosh Mak's armies, the rest is under City of Greyhawk control and is a tense, militarized region. Mercenaries from there are presumably refugees or people who took up the sword in that violent region--several famous adventurers, including IIRC the infamous Robilar, hail from the region.

Aside from the info in the GDQ series modules (the version where they are packaged together), I don't recall that there is another good source of details on Sterich--I think the background piece in #117 on Istivin and the info in #118 about the Sterich countryside is probably as good as you'll find anywhere.

You might also want to check out James Jacobs' adventure "Headless" in #94 (IIRC), set in the mountains near Sterich, which can be slightly retooled as a follow-on to the last adventure in the Istivin arc. (A project I'm working on as well, at some point). I can't remember the names of the adventures offhand, but I was thinking of also linking in the demogorgon temple adventure and the adventure involving an orc encampment in the forest (both came out in Dungeon about the same time as the Istivin arc), relocating and retooling as necessary. There was also an adventure involving an ancient White dragon published somewhere in the 90's (#92, perhaps) that could be set in the Crystalmists and linked in for higher level play.

I'm interested in any other modules people might link together for a high-level post-Istivin campaign.

Dark Archive

I just ordered the back issues of Dungeon 94 and 96. I really look forward to reading the "Headless" adventure. In working on the campign that I've titled Shadow over Sterich (not original at all,I know)I've really been mining the Istivin Trilogy adventures and backdrop article for everything I can and trying to sort everything into smaller adventure sized bites froming a coherent campaign with the Istivin Trilogy being a strong backbone for it. One of my goals is to use the material presented to create my own adventures. Unfortunatly this is somthing that I have little experince doing on my own. I've created little one shots and the stereotypical run of the mill adventures, but I figure that if I use the adventure seeds presented in Dungeon it would be like taking some baby steps into the big grand world of adventure design. I will be using and adapting other Dungeon adventures for the campaign, but I dont really want to string them together to form a campaign if I can help it. I feel as if the campaign loses some of its focus that way. At least thats been my expirence in the past.

Frog God Games

What's that sound I hear? Oh, it's Richard's head exploding...heh, heh.

Thank you Savage ScreenMonkey, though your pity-spawned compliments to Rich after his shameless acts of pathetic sniveling were probably unnecessary. However it shows you have a good heart and noble character, reaching out to the downtrodden and all that. Good for you, but totally unnecessary on a thread devoted my adventures. :-)

No seriously, don't let it happen again. I spend a great deal of time and energy trying to beat that guy down, and you've set me back weeks.

Now on to the important matters of your post.

1. I think Aramil's suggestion sums up the best way I can think of to incorporate "The Harrowing".

2. I don't believe there are any other references to the Azure Prince. I think it was pretty much introduced in the LLG as a plot hook for you to develop. Whenever I actually get around to running this series in my own campaign I was planning on incorporating "Headless" somehow in relation to the Azure Prince, though I hadn't figured out all the details of how yet.

3. In my original 1e campaign where I ran GDQ1-7 a zillion years ago, I created the Old Livery Stable as the base of operations for my players. I have a map for it somewhere, and if I can dig it up I'll try to post it. It was just a livery stable converted into temporary billets for the duration of the Black Bubble emergency. The stalls were large, each having been used to stable multiple animals and had wllas that climbed from floor to ceiling with a half gate at their entrance. These had been mucked and converted to cramped quarters. Multiple adventuring parties had been recruited for the emergency and quartered in the livery by Lashton of Grayhill, the king's agent, one party to each stall--especially large parties received two stalls. Party mounts were corralled out in the stableyard. Some of the names in issue #117 corresponded to actual PCs in that campaign of long ago.
As to the Axe of the Keeper, perhaps some vile giant or other creature recovers it and together with the axe becomes a host for the fragments of the Malgoth.

4. "Pandemonium in the Veins" is perfect for the Circus.

5. Wild Coat mercs ae just that, direputable types displaced by the armies of Turrosh Mak. Other thn being of questionable loyalty and dubious character, they had no special significance. Drudd just has scummy henchman. Incidentally I think most of the original Gygaxian characters (the Big Name wizards, Tenser, etc.) came from the Wild Coast, though several were of obviously higher scruples.

6. To my knowledge, other than the old gazzetteers and boxed sets with minimal info, the LLG is really the most expansive source of information on Sterich.

Incidentally, the Demogorgon adventure mentioned above was in the next issue (#120).

Anyway, thanks for your comments S_SM. I'm glad you enjoyed the campaign arc. If you have any other questions or need any more info on the ones I've answered please fire away. I'm all ears (and I know it burns Richard up, heh, heh).

Greg

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

I'm pretty sure I made up the Azure Prince out of whole cloth as a thread for later development. I don't think there was anything preceding the LGG on him, and there certainly hasn't been anything published since.

--Erik

Contributor

Steve Greer wrote:
Gavgoyle wrote:
Richard Pett wrote:
M'nnnaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar!
Oh dear, he's swallowed his tounge again. This should snap him out... Dungeon 96, it should be mentioned, also contains the delightfully whimsical "Hollow Threat" sidetrek adventure for 1st level characters, written by, uh, someone...
Are those the ropers again, Rich? You really need to do something about that, you crazy Brit!

It was down to spending all Sunday night being up at some ungodly hour working with some strange rat-fixated chap from Vegas - I took my eye off the herd and they escaped. M'nar.

Contributor

Damn - Erik never appears on any of my threads these days...

Contributor

Greg V wrote:

and I know it burns Richard up, heh, heh).

No it doesn't, no it doesn't...

All right, yes it does.

Blast and Befuddlement!

Dark Archive

I must say that it’s extremely cool that Greg, Erik, and Richard have chimed in on this thread. You guys rock. I would say that the three of you along with James Jacobs and company have been one of the major reasons that I ordered a subscription to Dungeon and Dragon. Your efforts at putting out great adventures and articles in the magazines have not gone unnoticed or unappreciated. I certainly hope that one day we will see a true, and updated Greyhawk setting, and that if we do it will be because of great writers such as you. I think that the rivalry between Greg and Richard is awesome; it makes reading these boards pretty fun sometimes.

I really appreciate the quick responses to my questions, and for taking the time to answer them. You have all help have help immensely and when I get this campaign off the ground it’s going to be great. I do have some more questions though (I write them down as they come up in my campaign notebook)

7) How does Istivin’s Council of Barons work?

8) I read in some of the old posts that there may be a follow up adventure to the Malgoth abyssal entity. Is this going to happen sometime in the near future? If so, that would be very cool, and Im sure Im not the only one that thinks that.

9) Is there a list of the Ranks of nobility in the world of Greyhawk, specifically for Sterich or Keoland somewhere. For instance the LGG states that Querchard gets promoted from Earl to Marquis by King Skotti. This type of detail seems kind of important in a city of feuding, backstabbing nobility, no?

10) On the city map of Istivin location # 21: Ancient Stone Circle. What’s the deal with these stone circles is it just me or do they appear all over Greyhawk, What is or was there purpose.

11) I downloaded the supplemental material for Dungeon issues #117-119, but when I tried to cut and paste the city and Hinterland maps for the player’s guide I’ve been working on none of the words would come with it. Am I doing something wrong here? How do I fix this problem?

12) I was thinking of incorporating the Scarlet brotherhood and Iuz into the campaign somehow, mostly because I think there interesting bad guys and also because I want to try and give this a very Greyhawk flavour. Is this a good route to go as far as supersizing the Greyhawk aspect or are there better avenues to explore first.

Thanks again everyone, I really appreciate your comments!

Ps. Sorry for the set back with richard, Will I be able to make it up to you by buying youre new module from WotC? heh hehe

Liberty's Edge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Woe to my players when I run them through the first collaborate Pett/Vaughn adventure!
So, Sirs, when will we get this?! ;)


Savage_ScreenMonkey wrote:


9) Is there a list of the Ranks of nobility in the world of Greyhawk, specifically for Sterich or Keoland somewhere. For instance the LGG states that Querchard gets promoted from Earl to Marquis by King Skotti. This type of detail seems kind of important in a city of feuding, backstabbing nobility, no?

12) I was thinking...

Ranks of nobility: There used to be a list of ranks of nobility from different systems (European, Turkish, Persian, ettc.) in the 1e DMG, and I've seen a similar list in the World Builder's Guide put out by Troll Lord Games under the Gygax name. A simplified European list would be

King
Grand Duke
Duke
Marquis
Count/Earl
Viscount
Baron
Knight

The March of Sterich, along with a number of other states (the Uleks, Gran March, Bissel, Geoff) are or were vassals of the King of Keoland, and I believe they still defer to the King of Keoland ceremonially--thus Querchard's recent promotion from Earl to Marquis. The relationship between Keoland and several of these vassal states is currently strained due to Keoland's failure to effectively aid them, IIRC. So it's like the King of France and the Duke of Burgundy in the late middle ages, when Burgundy held some of its lands in fief from the King of France, held others in its own right, and generally blew off the King of France except when the latter was able to muster a large enough army to intimidate him.

Iuz and the Scarlet Brotherhood: Neither of these villains have a direct stake in the situation in Sterich. However, both might profit from sowing dissension between Keoland and its erstwhile vassals, which would distract mighty Keoland from its campaign against the SB in the Hold of the Sea Princes, and from sending aid to Furyondy or Veluna in their ongoing wars with Iuz. An SB agent or two working on schemes to sour relations between Sterich and Keoland might be a good side-plot--maybe they try to manipulate the PCs into doing something that furthers their goals, etc. Iuz isn't as good at such things, but might be trying to stir up the giants to invade Sterich once again, or to make incursions from Geoff into Keoland, or he might have agents out looking for some powerful artifact or magic item that would help his cause.


Savage_ScreenMonkey wrote:
I must say that it’s extremely cool that Greg, Erik, and Richard have chimed in on this thread. You guys rock.

Now you've done it. You had to go and put fuel on the Greg and Rich ego fire.

Dryder wrote:
Woe to my players when I run them through the first collaborate Pett/Vaughn adventure! So, Sirs, when will we get this?! ;)

The fun part would be watching them try to write it together. (I understand US-UK relations were severely strained during their Ecology of the Dracolich collaboration.) Although, all I know about Rich is what Greg tells me, but I'm sure most of it is true.

All kidding aside, I, too, would like to see not only Greg and Rich work on an adventure, but throw Nick Logue in the mix as well. Now if I can just come up with something and actually submit it . . .

Frog God Games

Savage_ScreenMonkey wrote:
I think that the rivalry between Greg and Richard is awesome

What rivalry?

And yes, buying many copies of The Twilight Tomb (Insert shameless plug here: The Twilight Tomb by Greg A. Vaughan
Retails for 9.95 American/12.95 Canadian Designed for 4 3rd-level characters. It is written to advance the said characters by one or two levels and yes it covers star elves. ISBN- 0786939478) would probably make it up to me alot. I don't get commission, but I suppose if Twilight Tomb was their first adventure to sell over 5 million copies (I'm just guessing there) then they might want me to do other stuff, too.

P.S. Richard Pett sucks.

On to the questions:

7. I don't remember. I'll have to look at my notes and get back to you.

8. That's still very much in the pre-development stage, as in not really having a plot worked out--more of an idea of a plot. I haven't sent anything in to Erik and James on it yet. It is actaully something Rich and I had talked about collaberating on, and then he went all weird on me and started talking about a trilogy of adventures that could be played in any order. It made my head hurt, so I set it aside for the time being. Maybe after I get the Savage Tide stuff finished I'll pick it up again.

9. Good answer from Peruhain. One addendum, IIRC Sterich was largely independent from Keoland which was part of the reason Keoland couldn't be more overtly involved when the invasion occurred. The "promotion" to marquis, I believe, also had something to do with Querchard agreeing to greater fealty to the Crown of Keoland. Or I could be remembering incorrectly. Either way, Peruhain's answer is excllent.

10. Se 7 above.

11. I can't answer that being virtually computer illiterate. As far as I know a PC is something I'm obligated to destroy as a DM. That's about where my computer knowledge peters out.

12. True, true the above comments, but let's not forget, that the Scarlet Brotherhood was up to its elbows in the Slave Lords who had a representative from House Eilserv on their council. And I think Stalmin or somebody had dealings with Eclavdra (I'd have to look it up to be sure), so there is an indirect connection of Scarlet Brotherhood interests to the events surrounding the invasion of Sterich.

Likewise, Iuz was heavily involved in the formation of the Temple of Elemental Evil which was thematically devoted to the Elder Elemental God who is closely associated (or perhaps the same being) as the Elder Elemental Eye who was venerated by, you guessed it, House Eilserv, and was all, of course, a metaplot by Tharizdun.

So there could be a connection there as well. After all a chapel to the Elder Elemental Eye does exist almost directly below Istivin.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens Subscriber

The Slavelords around Stalman Klim had indeed Edralve, a drow priestess of changing allegiances, in their ranks, even in their inner circle, where at least two Scarlet Brotherhood monks were involved also (see the original Slaver series).
Edralve is said to be "an exile from Erelhei-Cinlu, from which she barely escaped after an abortive coup."
I remember reading somewhere that she was a priestess of Lolth to begin with, changed to Graz´zt IIRC, and back to Lolth again, but I can´t recall where I read this.
So, a connection between the SB and the Drow is possible, if somewhat weak.

Stefan


Greg,

Just so's you know, Shahng is one of my favorite NPCs *ever*. Man, did she kick some booty on my PCs when we ran this... :O

Just hadda tell ya.... :)

Contributor

Greg V wrote:
Savage_ScreenMonkey wrote:
I think that the rivalry between Greg and Richard is awesome

What rivalry?

That's correct, there is no rivalry - merely envy on Vaughn's part:)

Didn't we once discuss writing a trilogy and then you fell out with me after that steel cage death match thing I won??

Campaignworkbookcampaignworkbookcampaignworkbook

Frog God Games

Richard Pett wrote:
Greg V wrote:
Savage_ScreenMonkey wrote:
I think that the rivalry between Greg and Richard is awesome

What rivalry?

That's correct, there is no rivalry - merely envy on Vaughn's part:)

Didn't we once discuss writing a trilogy and then you fell out with me after that steel cage death match thing I won??

Campaignworkbookcampaignworkbookcampaignworkbook

Thanks Antithesis, it does me good to know I have caused problems with PCs other than those of my own players.

And as to you, Pett. I shan't deign to comment.

Contributor

Savage_ScreenMonkey wrote:

I must say that it’s extremely cool that Greg, Erik, and Richard have chimed in on this thread. You guys rock. I would say that the three of you along with James Jacobs and company have been one of the major reasons that I ordered a subscription to Dungeon and Dragon. Your efforts at putting out great adventures and articles in the magazines have not gone unnoticed or unappreciated. I certainly hope that one day we will see a true, and updated Greyhawk setting, and that if we do it will be because of great writers such as you. I think that the rivalry between Greg and Richard is awesome; it makes reading these boards pretty fun sometimes.

Curses.

Contributor

BV210 wrote:


All kidding aside, I, too, would like to see not only Greg and Rich work on an adventure, but throw Nick Logue in the mix as well. Now if I can just come up with something and actually submit it . . .

Yea! Your brother is turning to the Dark Side Greg!!! NICE!

The biggest problem with the three of us working together would, no doubt, be my early bed time. My parents are very strict on this point and I would not be able to work on our trifecta masterpiece after 8:00 pm at night, and couldn't even begin to work on it until after all of my homework is done.

But we could try.

Scarab Sages

Nicolas Logue wrote:
The biggest problem with the three of us working together would, no doubt, be my early bed time. My parents are very strict on this point and I would not be able to work on our trifecta masterpiece after 8:00 pm at night

Otherwise his Ninja Turtle action figures go in 'toy jail' and he's grounded from the x-box for a week.

Frog God Games

Shoo...shoo! Parden me I was brushing all of those pesky Logues and Petts off of my thread.

Savage_Screen Monkey, some answers.

The Council of Barons. I can't find my notes. But basically as I recall, they were some of the petty nobles beneath the marquis (or marchioness as the case may be) that served as advisors and a bureaucracy of sorts. Emondav tends to rely on them too much and Verbane probably has his sinister claws sunk into several of them. Due to the vast number of suspect nobles in Sterich (most of whom claim the title of baron, it being about the lowest landed noble title and one they could conceivably pass themselves off as), you can use this council just about as you please. Most of the members ae probably the more traditional and easily recognized members of the nobility that existed from before all the upheaval, but perhaps some of these new upstarts have gained enough wealth and clout to squeeze their way in.

As to the stone circles, those tie into a druidic tradition in Sterich's distant past before it was Sterich and would still serve as holy places for druids today. Most of the material alluding to the druidic past ended up being cut, but it had connections to both the Promontory and the unsual wolf statues at the city gates which are actually far older than the city or the country even.


http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=dharnasis&nextdate=12%2f15%2f2004+1 3%3a8%3a26.907

Try that address for info regarding "The Rise of the Azure Prince". It's homebrew and fairly interesting.

Cheers,
Skech

Contributor

Gavgoyle wrote:
Nicolas Logue wrote:
The biggest problem with the three of us working together would, no doubt, be my early bed time. My parents are very strict on this point and I would not be able to work on our trifecta masterpiece after 8:00 pm at night
Otherwise his Ninja Turtle action figures go in 'toy jail' and he's grounded from the x-box for a week.

And that's the worstest ever!!!

Contributor

Gavgoyle wrote:
Richard Pett wrote:
M'nnnaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar!
Oh dear, he's swallowed his tounge again. This should snap him out... Dungeon 96, it should be mentioned, also contains the delightfully whimsical "Hollow Threat" sidetrek adventure for 1st level characters, written by, uh, someone...

Gavgoyle - always a personal favourite friend of mine, and very intelligent too:)

Dark Archive

Greg V wrote:

...shoo! Parden me I was brushing all of those pesky Logues and Petts off of my thread.

Well I look Forward all your adventures in the Savage Tides AP. Fianally I have my own AP that I can read and DM instead of be at the whimsical fancy of my megalomaniac DM's (we rote between about three or four of us.

as to the stone circles, those tie into a druidic tradition in Sterich's distant past before it was Sterich and would still serve as holy places for druids today. Most of the material alluding to the druidic past ended up being cut, but it had connections to both the Promontory and the unsual wolf statues at the city gates which are actually far older than the city or the country even.

What happens to all the cool stuff that gets cut for what ever reasons deemed needed by the editor. Will it ever see the light of day? Is it possible that things like that could be compiled into some sort of PDF or a freedownload or whatever makes the most viable senes?

As to the Druidic order, I suspected that this was the case, however I didnt make the conection with the wolves at the gate.Defintaly something cool to think about working out as a full blown adventureor at least a side trek.

I always feel when Im working on an adventure of my own design like Im missing something key.I feel like okay heres the idea of a plot I work out a few details a build a frame work, yet it still feels as if somethings arnt smoothly connected like you would find in a published adventure.

As far as this campaign is concerned, I feel like I dont have a proper theme nailed down. After I started playing in the Shackled City AP, I said to myself why did I never think of organizing a campign this way. A series of 12 adventures makes so much sense in a logistical/organizational manner. So while Im making room for side quests and a chance for player's to expand and play out their characters goals, I want this campaign to be more than just a series of adventures that happen in Istivin and Sterich. I want some sort of overarching plot brewing in the background, and while a few unrelated advetures is fine, over all at the end the player's are like "Oh, okay now I get it!"
One of the problems that I've encountered is that the Malgoth while he may not have much power in the begining of the campaign,once the trilogy begins he really dominates the campaign. Once the palyers defeat him and the "Taint" clears about the city, anything after that seems almost peanuts. I dont really like the idea of sending a message to my player's saying that okay now that the looming threat has been defeated your role has become your basic drow/orc/giant hunters. If this makes any sense to anyone, do you have any thoughts or comments. Perhaps I expect to much from/for the campaign, or maybe Im just not seeing things clearly.

Dark Archive

So while I’ve been reading up on stuff and reviewing the trilogy material, as I like to call it, I’ve come up with more esoteric questions, I just wanted to reiterate how thankful I am for everyone’s input on the subject. It’s been encouraging, insightful and overall fun to read with all the humorous remarks and what not.

It seems to me on reflection that if the campaign requires a theme, that theme is going to need to revolve around the machinations of the Malgoth. In that vein, I think that one of the overarching themes should be the horror/madness of the Malgoth in addition to the Malgoth’s goals.

In addition here are some more questions:

13) Those people that illegitimately assume the title of barons and other noble titles, would they be more inclined to take a pre-existing noble families name or would they come up with some sort of forged documents saying that their related to so and so through whatever line. It seems to me that magic would make it relatively easy to discover who was lying and who wasn’t.

14) On the Istivin Hinterlands map there’s a manor location called the Bova Estate, and also a village called Bova. I assume that the Bovas are nobles most likely barons, was there anything that you had written about this location that got cut out the material?

15) There’s an island in the middle of the Davish river and the Javan River that has a keep/tower on it (according to the map), I believe it’s called the “Isle of Avenstane” although I cant now find out where I found that information because I didn’t write the source down in my notes. Is this place apart of Keoland or Sterich? Is there any more info on it somewhere?

16) In the post above in regards to the druidic faith, would those druids worship Beory or some other Greyhawk nature deity? Or was this something of your own design? How well could material found in the Twilight Tomb adventure be adapted to the stone circles/druidic order/Malgoth entity in the campaign?

17) Who is this “Shahng” NPC that Antithesis is referring to if its something a player in the Shackled City or Age of Worms AP isn’t supposed to know about don’t tell me as I’m a player in both of those campaigns.

Man I sure ask a lot of questions, I really hope I’m not being a pest.

Dark Archive

As I mentioned before, I wanted to structure the campaign around the concept of the AP series, that is 12 adventures that take the characters from levels 1-20. Outlined below is the basis of the framework for the campaign. Most of it is based on the adventure seeds culled from the Istivin Trilogy (Dungeon Magazine # 117-119) and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.

Shadows over Sterich Outline

1) Levels 1-3: “Enemy at the Gates”, An introductory adventure to Sterich and Istivin the characters meet at the Javan gates waiting to gain entry into the city. During this waiting period they have chance to get to know each other and forge the bonds of friendship in a combat encounter that occurs at roughly the same time. In order to keep the group together after the fight, the group is invited by a noble or someone to join them for dinner, at which time they are given an opportunity to work for the noble. Out of all the adventures in the campaign this is the one that I’m having the most trouble with as I want the PC’s to naturally come together out of circumstance as opposed to just saying okay you guys are a group here’s the adventure.

2) Levels 3-5: “The Society of the Vigil” In this adventure the PC’s go up against the society of the vigil, the madness of the Malgoth has tainted the minds of many in the city.
And its up to the hero’s to get to the bottom of who and what the society of the vigil is and put a stop to them.

3) Levels 5-7: “Its Alchemical my Dear!” The hero’s require a special alchemical substance that can only be found at the Kragmere School of alchemy, when they arrive at the academy they discover its been taken over by goblin raiders, after defeating the goblin raiders they learn that the alchemical substance they require has been strangely taken by the goblins back to their layer in the Stark Mounds. After defeating the goblins in their layer they return to Istivin with the substance and complete the mission that required the substance in the first place.

4) Levels 7-9: “Pandemonium in the Veins” This adventure is from Dungeon #96, I haven’t read it yet (but it’s in the mail), If it works well I will use it mostly because I really wanted to use the Circus (location #19, Dungeon #117). It seemed like this was an appropriate level to place the adventure based on the NPCs and Monsters found at the location.

5) Levels 9-10: “And Madness Followed” This adventure is from Dungeon #134. I’m not sure if I will actually put this into the campaign arc. I’ve considered it for the following reasons. A) I love the Cthulhu Mythos, B) It kind of follows the theme of madness/ horror that I want to evoke in the campaign. C) it fits in the spot of the framework of the campaign as far character levels go. If I use it, the adventure will probably require a certain amount of modification to fit properly. I’m hesitant to use it because I feel that it just comes out of left field as continuity goes. Maybe I’m wrong here.

6) Levels 10-11: “Touch of the Abyss” Dungeon #117
7) Levels 11-12: “Shadows of the Abyss” Dungeon # 118
8) Levels 12-13: “Wrath of the Abyss” Dungeon # 119

I think that these three speak for themselves for obvious reasons, as they forum the backbone of the entire campaign.

9) Levels 13-15: “Verbane’s Gambit” I’m not sure what I planed on doing at this point I was mostly thinking that the PC’s have made a huge enemy of Verbane as threats to his taking the reigns of power from the marchioness. At this point he would take make his play to take over the city, if not control over the entirety of the Marchlands and take out the hero’s at the same time. In retrospect it would probably make sense if the Malgoth entity, after his defeat at the hero’s hands, tried and succeeded in taking possession of Verbane making him a true for to be reckoned with!

10) Levels 15-17: At this point I would run either “The Chapel of Time” An adventure inspired by the chapel of time encounter site/adventure seed found in Dungeon #118 or ”The Harrowing” by Monte Cook (Dungeon # 84). The Harrowing is cool; it has lots of interesting encounters and other stuff in it but like “And Madness Followed” it feels to me as if it just jumps out of left field and doesn’t follow the campaign continuity. To make it work I was considering making the drow house of Tormtor loyal to Laveth. Running the Harrowing would be easier than creating an entirely new adventure. If I where to create the Chapel of Time adventure I was thinking along the line of the PC’s needing to recover some relic or stopping the fiendish devil worshippers (perhaps related to the Malgoth) from accomplishing some vile ritual or both. Still lots to work to do on this adventure if I decide to take this route.

11) Levels 17-19: My notes list this as an adventure based on some kind of drow plot possibly in regards to the Elder Elemental Eye and House Tormtor, or and Assault on the Vault of the Drow. I could possibly place the Harrowing or the Chapel of Time adventure here.

12) Levels 19-20: Here also my notes are vague as all I have at this point it Davish Headwaters and the “Azure Prince” This is one area that I really want to build an adventure around its just to mysterious and cool not to. Also, because it was the only other major thing of note in the LGG it seems too pertinent to be left out. As far as the Azure Prince is concerned I’m still trying to come up with an interesting concept for what exactly he or it is. I don’t really want to use the cliché of Ogre magi or a Blue Dragon, although I had considered using a Barghest when I was going to place this as a lower level adventure. Now that I have FC I: Hordes of the Abyss I was considering making him the Demon Lord Fraz-Urb’luu searching for his staff which he believes is hidden somewhere in the Sterish Marchlands specifically the Davish headwater mines, again here I feel as if all of a sudden the campaign takes a major swing from the natural flow of things.

That’s pretty much the outline of the campaign to date. Of course I want the PC’s to be able to accomplish some of their own campaign goals so the adventure levels will be adjusted accordingly and should make room for some minor side treks based on the PC’s personal agendas. Of course I won’t know what those are until we start playing when ever that may be (I’ve got a long time to go before my turn to DM come around, and then I have to decide Shadows over Sterich or Savage Tides.)

Dark Archive

In addendum to my last post Im also waiting for Dungeon#89 thats being shipped with Dungeon #96 so that I can check out the Headless adventure and see how it could work into the campaign.


Nobility--It was typical for medieval/early modern rulers to have an office in charge of keeping track of patents of nobility. England and Scotland, for example, had (well, actually still have) heraldic colleges, which kept track of the genealogies of all families with a claim to noble rank, along with the heraldic devices they were entitled to use, etc. They probably also at one point kept track of the estates and other sources of revenue each noble house had been granted by the king. Sterich probably has some sort of heraldic college, but its archives were most likely destroyed (at least partially) during the giants' occupation of Istivin. This makes it easy to forge patents of nobility and pass them off as "the family copy" of the patent. The surviving heralds may be a bit senile or suffer from madness since the giants were evicted, making it hard to refute such claims. Alternatively, fortune seekers look around for manors or castles that haven't been reoccupied, and then create genealogical documents to establish their claim as legitimate heirs ("I'm the former baron's second cousin once removed. Alas, his only son perished in exile, leaving the estate to me.") Zone of truth, etc. might detect such falsehoods, but presumably there are magical countermeasures that can be taken. Nondetection, anyone? [Presumably there are some even more effective spells specifically designed to foil "lie detector" divination spells--if they're not in the spell compendium, someone should invent them.]

Shahng--remember, the weapons master in the third adventure in the Istivin trilogy? She was on the cover of Dungeon. My party set her free after she agreed to show them the underdark route back to Istivin. The paladin was not happy, but he had to cut a deal or risk not making it back in time to stop the Malgoth. Yes, Shahng is a cool NPC with great potential.

Headless--Spoilers!

this adventure is animated by a Derro loremaster's attempt to feed souls to Orcus in order to bring him to the material plane, IIRC. You could replace Orcus with the Malgoth, or create some sort of metaplot involving the elder elemental eye, Orcus, and the Malgoth, to tie the adventures together. Foreshadowing is built into the adventure, because the "dead gate" the Derro builds sucks the souls of the recently dead from a large area into a one-way gate to the Abyss. If a PC dies (almost a certainty in the final adventure of the Istivin trilogy, I should think), you can have them experience a vision of being sucked into the dead-gate and rescued by the resurrection spell in the nick of time. There are some encounters I don't especially like in the adventure, but the basic idea is a pretty cool one. You could even tie the bluish-skinned Derro villainess in with the Azure Prince somehow--the location of the dungeon is in the same general vicinity.

Dark Archive

Peruhain of Brithondy wrote:

Nobility--It was typical for medieval/early modern rulers to have an office in charge of keeping track of patents of nobility. England and Scotland, for example, had (well, actually still have) heraldic colleges, which kept track of the genealogies of all families with a claim to noble rank, along with the heraldic devices they were entitled to use, etc. They probably also at one point kept track of the estates and other sources of revenue each noble house had been granted by the king. Sterich probably has some sort of heraldic college, but its archives were most likely destroyed (at least partially) during the giants' occupation of Istivin. This makes it easy to forge patents of nobility and pass them off as "the family copy" of the patent. The surviving heralds may be a bit senile or suffer from madness since the giants were evicted, making it hard to refute such claims. Alternatively, fortune seekers look around for manors or castles that haven't been reoccupied, and then create genealogical documents to establish their claim as legitimate heirs ("I'm the former baron's second cousin once removed. Alas, his only son perished in exile, leaving the estate to me.") Zone of truth, etc. might detect such falsehoods, but presumably there are magical countermeasures that can be taken. Nondetection, anyone? [Presumably there are some even more effective spells specifically designed to foil "lie detector" divination spells--if they're not in the spell compendium, someone should invent them.]

Shahng--remember, the weapons master in the third adventure in the Istivin trilogy? She was on the cover of Dungeon. My party set her free after she agreed to show them the underdark route back to Istivin. The paladin was not happy, but he had to cut a deal or risk not making it back in time to stop the Malgoth. Yes, Shahng is a cool NPC with great potential.

Headless--Spoilers!

this adventure is animated by a Derro loremaster's attempt to feed souls to Orcus in order to bring him to the...

You make and very good point and provide some interesting details in regards to the nobility question. I always hesitate to use real world history in D&D, which I guess in kind of silly in that there are a plethora of parallels between the two. I’ve always hated those arguments in which people argue well this is how things work in real life so that’s exactly how it should work in a magic infused fantasy realm, but that’s for a different thread. In the future I think I will take this a lesion to do some historical research into what equates to relatively mundane topics.

In regards to Shahng, Whoops! I guess I should have read the adventures better. Man do I feel dumb for not seeing that.

About the “Headless” adventure, I know that as DM I should modify things and adapt adventures but sometimes I feel weird about modifying “canon”. For instance in the original GDQ series part of Istivin is covered by Lolths bubble when I first read this I thought man that’s stupid! But Greg went ahead and rolled with it and came out with a really cool concept for a campaign. So now in retrospect I think the whole Lolths bubble thing while kinda weird when I first read it, is now kinda cool. So I always wonder when I should modify stuff and when I shouldn’t.

Frog God Games

More answers...

13) I think Perhain's comments are valid. My idea was that most records were destroyed and most record-keepers slain or scattered. The "new" nobility would be people primarily claiming to be distant unknown relations to slaughtered noble families. Anyone with the power to ascertain the veracity may be preoccupied or may not care..espeically if the newcomer is offering stability to an area in the form of loyal men-at-arms, is willing to swear feality, and more than likely presents some sort of a bribe. You can go a lot of ways with that. Besides, Sterich has always had something of a reputation for this "low" nobility and much of the confusion stems from the hodge-podge of noble patents given out by Earl Qualtaine in the early days of Sterich.

14) BOva is indeed opne of the surviving noble families. Baron Bova has reinhbited to his ancestral house and administers the surviving villags of his realm, primarily the village of Bova. No other details were included.

15) I don't know where you got the name Avestane from. I don't recall seeing it, but it may be from some other source. In my capaigns going back 15 years or so, I had always called that island Adakkan Strold, a semi-independent barony and major trading point on the Javan River. That name originated from the adventure "Incident at Strathern Point" by Matthew Maaske way back in issue #21. Not much information is given in that adventure, so I don't know why, but I had always located it there. You can see the naming relation when they named a nearby fortress Godakin Keep, though they left the island itself nameless. Strathern Point became Kilm on the final map.

16)I had associated the druidism from an ancient version of the Old Faith, though in a much wilder, and less-civilized from than even today. As today, Beory was the primary deity of the Old Faith, though other primeval gods and demi-gods were included as well, many of them since long forgotten.

The Twilight Tomb would be a tough tie-in as its stone circles are all a part of the interdimensional pathways of the star elves and don't deal in any particular way with druidism. Not that it can't be done, but I probably wouldn't do it, and it has a very different flavor than the Sterich region.

17) Already answered above.

I like your adventure path idea S_SM. And I'll include some info from the original manuscript below that you can use if you like. These did not make it into the final version so they are not official canon, though I don't know that they contradict anything in particlar so they should still work fine.

Frog God Games

In refernce to Number 13 above (the nobility) is the following excerpt (including some info on the erstwhile Council of Barons). First some background and then some timeline:

" Eventually compacts were formed between the dwarven clans of the Crystalmists and the Crown of Keoland. To bring order to a frontier that had grown somewhat wild since the death of old Brellis Krelont, King Trevlyan I incorporated the Western Gate marchlands into the Earldom of Sterich as a client state to Keoland in 442 O.R.. Qualtaine (pronounced Kwal-tine), a cousin of the Grand Duke of Geoff and a close ally of the king, was granted the title of Earl of Sterich. His house became the hereditary lords of that land, and it has endured to this day..."

"The trading post at Krelont Keep grew into a sizable city around the base of the rocky peak known as the Promontory. When Sterich became an earldom, a massive wall was constructed to enclose the city and further protect it from incursion. Always embattled by the nonhuman hordes and giants of the western and southern mountains, Earl Qualtaine set about organizing his lawless frontier into a respectable vassal state of Keoland. In addition to the city’s new wall, the earl commissioned the construction of the border forts along the earldom’s western and southern borders. His frequent grants of nobility to anyone who could protect a part of the border ultimately led to the security that was needed to keep the mining operations and trade flowing through Sterich..."

"415 O.R. (-229 CY): Brellis Krelont appointed Warden of the Marchlands of the Great Western Gate. Istivin relocated. Foundations of Krelont Keep laid.

442 O.R. (-202 CY): Qualtaine of Gorna is named as the first Earl of Sterich. He takes Krelont Keep in the growing city of Istivin as his seat.

575 O.R. (-69 CY): The Council of Barons is formed as a legislative body in Istivin.

295 CY: Sterich concedes to admitting Keoish representatives to the Council of Barons as King Tavish I of Keoland completes the near total confederation of the Sheldomar Valley.

348 CY: The Wealsun Proclamation of King Tavish II of Keoland conscribes Sterish troops into service for annexation of the Pomarj from the prince of Ulek.

461 CY: An exhausted King Tavish IV of Keoland agrees to the earl’s demand to remove all Keoish representatives from the Council of Barons save only a ceremonial, non-voting “Liaison of the Crown”."

Frog God Games

Here's a little more info about the wolves at Javan gate.

" Local legend holds that the gods Fortubo and Bleredd battled an archdevil and his pack of infernal hounds thousands of years ago on the spot where Istivin now stands. A blow by Fortubo’s mighty hammer Golbi is said to have rent the earth swallowing the archdevil and his pack and forcing a titanic piece of deeply buried granite to the surface. This huge chunk of stone formed the Promontory here in the midst of the featureless plain. To commemorate the spot where the devil pack was defeated, Bleredd fashioned a life-sized statue from the newly unearthed granite and placed it atop the hill’s peak. When humans settled the land millennia later they found the statue and eventually incorporated it into the main gate to bring the city luck."

You'll note on the map of Krelont Keep in #117 the empty plinth in the courtyard. The wolf statue stood there until it was finally moved and incorporated into the construction of Javan Gate.

Below is the true history, however, of where the wolf statues originated form and why they were animated by the will of the Malgoth. It is revealed in this enigmatic entry in the history of Sterich.

"c. 250 O.R. (-394 CY): Marbus and Hulot battle the Wild Hunt on the central promontory of the Davish Plain."

More on this and its ties to the druidic past of Sterich in the next post, but warning "Here There Be Spoilers" for anyone who may be playing in a Sterich campaign. But hopefully tghis information will be useful to further build your campaign upon.

Frog God Games

Okay, a final tidbit of information that didn't make the cut.

" DM’s Notes: The legends regarding the gatehouse’s cornerstone is rooted in truth, though the incident in question occurred only about one thousand years ago rather than many millennia. The Promontory already existed at that time and served one night as a defensive stand for the Suel archmage Marbus and his companion, the cleric Hulot. This pair was scouting beyond the Crystalmists for a possible refuge from the raging Baklunish-Suloise War. While exploring this land they encountered a strange local demigod of the indigenous Flan tribes. This divinity was the Master of the Wild Hunt and his pack. The archmage and cleric battled the Wild Hunt upon the granite outcrop and managed to magically entrap four of the Master’s hounds, massive dire wolves, with imprisonment spells. Centuries later when the dungeons beneath Krelont Keep were excavated, the workers came upon the four wolves, themselves petrified into a block of granite by their long exposure to the magic. For years the granite block served as a centerpiece in Krelont Keep’s courtyard. When the city walls were built, it was incorporated into the main gatehouse."


Azure prince ? could this be the return of Raxivort ? you know, that blue skinned half-pint, lord of rats, were-rats ...
and xvarts (those wiped off the face of oerth by the new-edition virus).
who better to rally humanoids ?

Dark Archive

Thanks Greg, all this stuff is great!

A few questions:

Is the Master of the Wild Hunt a Greyhawk thing or was this of your own design? Is it like some ferral version of Beory? I've never played or DM'd a Greyhawk campaign before and I find that its really difficult to find out things about the world sometimes. And then when you do some of the sources conflict about this or that, which then leaves it up to you as the DM to choose which is fact and wich is fiction.I find this to be a real pain sometimes.

As for the dates and time line, when you wrote the backdrop article on Istvin what was the current date 594CY or what. Because Im getting conflicting dates while I try to compile the history of the area.

Another thing Ive discovered about Greyhawk is that during the Pre Suel-Baklunish migration there was alot of history and ancient history that occured, and is not part of cannon anywhere.This probably means that I could create whole cloth alot stuff that happened and even tie it all in with the Malgoth somehow.


Greg V wrote:

More answers...

15) I don't know where you got the name Avestane from. I don't recall seeing it, but it may be from some other source.

Isle of Avenstane LGG, page 151 under the Davish River entry.

Hope this clears up any "canon" concerns.

Cheers

Dark Archive

Skech wrote:
Greg V wrote:

More answers...

15) I don't know where you got the name Avestane from. I don't recall seeing it, but it may be from some other source.

Isle of Avenstane LGG, page 151 under the Davish River entry.

Hope this clears up any "canon" concerns.

Cheers

Thanks! it was really starting to anoy me that I couldnt remeber where I found that tidbit.I looked everywhere except in the LGG,figures it would be there.


SSM--IRT your comment about relationship of historical reality to fantasy:

I see the history of our world, along with mythology, ethnography, religious studies, etc., as a source of inspiration that helps to fill some of the gaps left by imaginative, fantastic world-building and create a sense of verisimilitude that the FRPG otherwise lacks. Unless you're playing in a steam punk or six-guns and sorcery type setting, a lot of the assumptions we have about how the campaign milieu operates are based on medieval or "pre-modern" societies that we know of from history. Doesn't mean we have to be slaves to history, but keep in mind that history (or what might be called antiquarianism) can be a useful stimulus to the imagination.

Of course sometimes that means research, which may be as difficult as making things up whole cloth--but never underestimate the usefulness of our collective knowledge on the boards.


Greg V., I have some questions regarding timeline conflicts with your notes.

According to the Living Greyhawk Journal #1 or #2, in the Keoland article, it states that Istivin was created in CY -230. You seem to imply that Brellis Krelont was the overseerer of the March (in CY -229) until Qualtaine took over 27 years later (I thot Qualtaine was in charge from day one). In the trilogy, under the Istivin Crossing entry, Brellis Krelont disposed of the miners and was awarded "Warden" status (which I assumed was just a fluff title and an excuse for him to eat at the good table) about CY 394, "200 years ealier". Is this the same man? His descendent?

Sterich is a feudal society according to the LGG. How does a council of Barons constitute a "legislative branch" in a "feudal" government? Perhaps a council of appointed advisors would be a better term. Also, wouldn't it be made up of 6 counts and the Earl? The LGG says that Sterich is made up of 7 counties, each with 3-15 lesser baronies. I assume that the Earl runs one and that 6 Counts run the rest with Barons answering to the counts or Earl. Lord Bova, I would assume, is actually a Count and not a Baron (regardless that Baron Bova sounds cooler).

Please do not take my questions in a harsh manner. That is not my intention. I have just finished writing and compiling a 16 page gazetteer of Sterich for my own new campaign. Yes, I am one of those CANON freaks. I just wanna get it ALL and done RIGHT!!!

Thanks for sharing.

Dark Archive

Peruhain of Brithondy wrote:

SSM--IRT your comment about relationship of historical reality to fantasy:

I see the history of our world, along with mythology, ethnography, religious studies, etc., as a source of inspiration that helps to fill some of the gaps left by imaginative, fantastic world-building and create a sense of verisimilitude that the FRPG otherwise lacks. Unless you're playing in a steam punk or six-guns and sorcery type setting, a lot of the assumptions we have about how the campaign milieu operates are based on medieval or "pre-modern" societies that we know of from history. Doesn't mean we have to be slaves to history, but keep in mind that history (or what might be called antiquarianism) can be a useful stimulus to the imagination.

Of course sometimes that means research, which may be as difficult as making things up whole cloth--but never underestimate the usefulness of our collective knowledge on the boards.

Once again great point PoB,I probably should have elaborated on that comment more. What I was really shooting at in that post was for more along t he lines of how people argue the actual physics of the D&D world (The game mechanics and other rules) should be a mirror reflection of how the "rules" of our own world has worked past present and future. For example, hit points dont acuratly reflect how some one getting injured in a fight in real life would work or how much damage ceratin weapons deal compared to their real life counterparts ect.

Ive discovered its alot easier to express what Im saying through actual speach as oppossed to posting it on these boards sometimes.

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