Gaming Group is Crisis! Film at 11!


3.5/d20/OGL


Hi. I've not been part of this community for long but I've read quite a bit of the post on here and figure you guys might be able to help me. I'll try to be brief.

My gaming group has becoem increasingly hostile as of late. People arguing with one another over anything from politics to game rules to the 'crappiness' of character current and past. Last session went poorly as one of the players, after his character was knocked out in a battle, went into the living room to sulk for 2 hours. Another player yelled across the table at my wife about her 'crazy' idea to have the PCs enter a swamp to rescue some hostages. He was visiblity angry and while you could say it was 'role playing' this player is like this all the time now. Shouting down others and belittling poeple constantly (except me - I'm the DM). This has been going on, slowly escalating, for months now. I've brought this up in the past when things seem to get sour and it impoved - slightly. Things are now worse than ever (the angry player and sulky one will completely 'zone out' if the game isn't focused on them - to the point that one has this loud, irritating fake yawn he use 3 or 4 times in a row). I do not want to boot them but beyond smashing the group and forgetting about it I really don't know what to do.

Any advice would be helpful. I know I have to talk to them but I am completely at a loss as to what to say. Both of them can be, surprisingly, very sensitive to criticism.


Hmm ... what ages are we talking about, here?

-The Gneech


PsychoticWarrior wrote:


Any advice would be helpful. I know I have to talk to them but I am completely at a loss as to what to say. Both of them can be, surprisingly, very sensitive to criticism.

Instead of running the game in the next session, talk to them. Start with how you feel about the game and the environment and put it in the context of what you want to achieve. Start by taking responsibility for letting things get to a point where it is now. I'm not saying your solely responsible only that as DM you're the linch pin of the game and so it starts with you.

Start with yourself and say exactly how you feel. Don't accuse anyone of anything or project words into the player's mouths. Just say "I feel this. I think this. My goal is this. I like these things. I don't like these things." When you're done, ask each of your players in turn to share their feelings. Again, ensure they do not project words or feelings onto the other players or you. As soon as you hear, "So-and-so did this and so I did this." Someone is going to be on the defensive for being accused of something. That isn't the goal here. Its just to get everyone talking about it. In part you're trying to share ownership of the situation with them, and also have them become an active part of the solution as well.

When everyone is done, ask how to improve things and ask for the players to help you make the gaming session better at the table.

I'd be curious if these behaviors extend beyond the gaming table or is everything fine until they sit down and game? Often times there are underlying issues that may not even be related to the game itself. Players and DM's alike use gaming as a way to exercise stress from their lives (a bit of irony for the DM eh?).

On last suggestion: Get together for reason's other than gaming. Have a pizza party or some other social gathering not centered on gaming and see how everyone interacts. It could be telling.

Scarab Sages

I have been through this kind of thing a few times. Sometimes we made it through it, and sometimes we didn't.

First of all, it sounds like you guys need to take a break from roleplaying. Get out a few other games -- Munchkin card game, Settlers of Cataan, Monopoly, or whatever works for you. Try not to stop getting together, just try doing something different when you are together.

After a couple of weeks, (when people have settled down), ask them what they would like done different if role-playing is picked up again. Try to figure out why each person is there. What do they get out of role-playing.

Occasionally, I have had to ask someone not to play anymore with the group. This usually doesn't go over very well, but the majority of the group benefits.

One thing that I have noticed is that the people who gripe the most (sulk, get angry, etc.) are the ones who never DM. Give them an opportunity to DM. Give them a little bit of appreciation for how much work a DM has to do to make the game balanced, fun, and fair.

Just a few random thoughts. Most importantly though -- it really sounds like people need a break. I have really found that "Absence makes the heart grow fonder". The more that gamers are away from the game, the more they will want to play and get back to having fun.

Good luck.

The Exchange

While I would recommend talking to the group to try and rectify the issues, people ultimately revert to type - and some people are naturally annoying and selfish. So if the discussions don't really help (and don't be surprised if they don't) you will need to expel one or other (or both) of the difficult players. It is clearly ruining your enjoyment, and I doubt your wife likes being shouted at either, and I suspect there are others suffering in silence. Life is too short to deal with stuff like this - if they have issues, send them to a psychiatist or something, you are a just DM.

The Exchange

The 2 problem players need to leave. They don't enjoy the game and are ruining it for those who do. Ditch them nicely and post for some replacement players.
Dig out the infection and cauterize the wound or your whole group will succumb to the infection. 1 good player lost to 2 bad players is an absolute waste.

my 2
FH


Well, it just so happens that we were just talking about that in a few other threads...

Imagine you weren't playing D&D but, say, dominos. Would you accept playing with people who pout and scream when they lose? (they aren't wookies, right?) Would you accept another player yelling at your wife over a game of dominos? Of course not. You'd probably tell that person to calm down or beat it. Same thing should happen here.

This is the perfect time to remind them that this is "Just a Game". You play a game to have fun... No fun; No game!

Ultradan

The Exchange

Hmm, I still recommend talking to them first. I know that once when I was stressed by a few too many things, I let it affect my gaming in a rather negative way. The GM and I talked and I took a "leave of absence" from the game until I felt comfortable coming back.

However, if this type of solution just isn't in the cards, then, yea, chuck the players.


Ultradan wrote:
(they aren't wookies, right?)

It's sad that I say this, but you spelled wookiee wrong.

Anyways, I agree with many of the thoughts. First, you should make a list of problems, and who causes them. Then speak with each eprson inidvidually about these problems. Don't sugarcoat it, but be diplomatic. Be honest. People alone are generally more honest than in groups.

After you get all that, have the group get together, and use your knowledge of each persons feelings to run a discussion. And look at how you can maybe help out by changing. If people won't change, that's to bad.

In either situation, I concur with the idea of playing somthing else a few sessions. Let everyone cool down and get a break.


I'd try to find out, subtly, if there's any real-life issues that are rearing their ugly heads in game. I know there are times that my players "hiss and scratch" at each other, moreso because some of them are a couple and let some of their relationship issues bleed over. Maybe they've got some real-life stressors that are impacting their ability to have a good time with other people.

As was suggested, try putting the game on hold, say one or two sessions. Still keep in touch with your players and maybe go to the arcade, go to a movie, rent a movie, go on a walk, have lunch together (if you're financially able, offer to pay their half), hang out and have a late-night coffee together. Try to find things in common outside of gaming.

If anything that you try that's been suggested in this thread doesn't work...well, you've probably figured out by this time who are the troublemakers and the drama kings/queens. Find a way to confront them about it that best suits your personality and run with it.


When I was in highschool a group of friends and I played Magic the Gathering. One of my friends at the time (still is a friend actually) is pretty competative, no, very competative. I generally just like to play for fun, win or loose, no big deal, however something about the way my buddy would get worked up about the game got under my skin. Instead of taking a step backwards like a responsible person I decided to take him up on his "challenge" and tried harder and harder every week to defeat him. It got to the point where most of our games ended up being heated arguments about the rules. I realized that I more dreaded than looked foreward to our games. At that point I decided it was best not to play. Our group took a break from the game and instead just hung out together for a while. Things cooled down, people matured a little bit and when we took up gaming again, things were a lot more under control. I guess I'm not adding anything here, just relating an experience. I'm just glad we all pulled back before a friendship was permanently damaged.

In your situation though, it sounds like there is something going on beyond the game. Are your problem players having trouble at work or at home? I could be wrong, not a psychiatrist or anything, but that could be one factor influencing your players current problems.


John Robey wrote:

Hmm ... what ages are we talking about, here?

-The Gneech

Sorry I took so long to get back here - I had to go to work unexpectedly.

28 to 36 years old (I'm the oldest). The two 'problem' players are both 30.


Lord Silky wrote:


Instead of running the game in the next session, talk to them. Start with how you feel about the game and the environment and put it in the context of what you want to achieve. Start by taking responsibility for letting things get to a point where it is now. I'm not saying your solely responsible only that as DM you're the linch pin of the game and so it starts with you.

Start with yourself and say exactly how you feel. Don't accuse anyone of anything or project words into the player's mouths. Just say "I feel this. I think this. My goal is this. I like these things. I don't like these things." When you're done, ask each of your players in turn to share their feelings. Again, ensure they do not project words or feelings onto the other players or you. As soon as you hear, "So-and-so did this and so I did this." Someone is going to be on the defensive for being accused of something. That isn't the goal here. Its just to get everyone talking about it. In part you're trying to share ownership of the situation with them, and also have them become an active part of the solution as well.

When everyone is done, ask how to improve things and ask for the players to help you make the gaming session better at the table.

This might be a little too 'touchy feely' for my group. But believe me I am open minded enough to try most anything. I admit the last time we talked about it was handled about as badly as could be expected (mainly from my end of it - I lost my temper momentarily and began the discussion on far to angry a tone).

Lord Silky wrote:


I'd be curious if these behaviors extend beyond the gaming table or is everything fine until they sit down and game? Often times there are underlying issues that may not even be related to the game itself. Players and DM's alike use gaming as a way to exercise stress from their lives (a bit of irony for the DM eh?).

On last suggestion: Get together for reason's other than gaming. Have a pizza party or some other social gathering not centered on gaming and see how everyone interacts. It could be telling.

The really hard part with this is that 3 of the players (neither of the problem players mentioned) drive 2 hours just to be in my game. They are very reluctant to come if D&D isn't being played. For that matter the 2 prob players probably wouldn't show either.


Bill Hendricks wrote:


One thing that I have noticed is that the people who gripe the most (sulk, get angry, etc.) are the ones who never DM. Give them an opportunity to DM. Give them a little bit of appreciation for how much work a DM has to do to make the game balanced, fun, and fair.

Actually both of them have DMed in the past one as recently as a month ago.

Bill Hendricks wrote:


Just a few random thoughts. Most importantly though -- it really sounds like people need a break. I have really found that "Absence makes the heart grow fonder". The more that gamers are away from the game, the more they will want to play and get back to having fun.

Good luck.

It might be as easy as that (I can only hope!). Thanks for sharing your experiences.


if you were doing *anything* but D&D, and someone acted like a jerk, would you invite them the next time? Of course not! D&D shouldn't be any different.

Yawning on purpose is incredibly disrepectful and I would let the person know it.


I guess first the problem really has to be discovered whether mopey guy and hostle guy have problems with the game or with each other. Interestingly a similar thing happened in our group--only the mopey guy was the GM and the hostile guy was a player in his campaign. Without exception at some point in the game they would open up and lay into each other with every low blow insult they could hurl until either the player would get so mad he'd take off, or sulk out the rest of the session, or the GM would flare up after enough abuse and invoke the power of Divine GMly Retribution and do something to horribly blast hostile guy's character. It had little to do with the game really though, since they'd do that all the time, game or not, even with someone else GMing. Both players got increasingly surly and foul-spirited until they eventually both left.

I took the opportunity to run some solo games for hostile guy though (who is a great guy--but hugely combative and sometimes a bit immature and oversensitive) and after a few months of really great games and being able to do whatever he wanted without feeling hemmed in or criticised he got over it, developed a new roleplaying philosophy and is now a valued member of the group.

I tried to offer the same to mopey guy, but he had gotten so surly and particular about his games by then that he had no interest in being "pandered to" with a solo game, and was so disinterested in our groups games that he may as well have fallen off the planet. Nowadays mostly he just rants about how much of a waste of time roleplaying is...not that he's really doing anything with his life in the spare time. So mostly we've just sadly written him off.


Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
While I would recommend talking to the group to try and rectify the issues, people ultimately revert to type - and some people are naturally annoying and selfish. So if the discussions don't really help (and don't be surprised if they don't) you will need to expel one or other (or both) of the difficult players. It is clearly ruining your enjoyment, and I doubt your wife likes being shouted at either, and I suspect there are others suffering in silence. Life is too short to deal with stuff like this - if they have issues, send them to a psychiatist or something, you are a just DM.

I fear that this may be the ultimate problem. I've also noticed that, outside of the game, we don't get together for movies and the like much anymore. Maybe I am the problem. I really don't know at this point but I've scheduled a game for this Sunday (I cancelled our last one just because the thought of it was making me queasy) so I can at least try to come to some kind of middle ground.


Fake Healer wrote:

The 2 problem players need to leave. They don't enjoy the game and are ruining it for those who do. Ditch them nicely and post for some replacement players.

Dig out the infection and cauterize the wound or your whole group will succumb to the infection. 1 good player lost to 2 bad players is an absolute waste.

my 2
FH

The sad thing is that these two were my two best players once upon a time. I'd really like to find out what has changed so much in the past year.

The Exchange

PsychoticWarrior wrote:
Fake Healer wrote:

The 2 problem players need to leave. They don't enjoy the game and are ruining it for those who do. Ditch them nicely and post for some replacement players.

Dig out the infection and cauterize the wound or your whole group will succumb to the infection. 1 good player lost to 2 bad players is an absolute waste.

my 2
FH

The sad thing is that these two were my two best players once upon a time. I'd really like to find out what has changed so much in the past year.

BTW, welcome to the boards! You will find that the people here are extremely helpful and a great bunch to bounce ideas off of. Just don't spell ROGUE as ROUGE, some around here make it their mission to correct core-class misspelling;)

FH


Fake Healer wrote:


BTW, welcome to the boards! You will find that the people here are extremely helpful and a great bunch to bounce ideas off of. Just don't spell ROGUE as ROUGE, some around here make it their mission to correct core-class misspelling;)

FH

Thanks. I find the atomosphere here very refreshing after some of the other boards I've been to. I still spell Rogue "Thief" ;-)

On that note I want to thank everyone for their suggestions. It has helped a lot and hopefully I'll be able to tell of some good things after the game on Sunday.


I'm still working on the rouge rogue prestige class (master of disguise) just to mess you up, FH. Here's a sample....Best of Dragon Compendium II, here I come!!! ;)

Reddish Glow (Ex)
The rouge rogue's facial paint gives off a faint reddish glow that provides visibility in a 5 foot radius, similar to a fire beetle's belly. At 7th level, the range expands to a 10 foot radius.

Enhanced Disguise (Ex)
The rouge rogue gets a +2 competency bonus to all disguise checks when facial make-up was applied to enhance the disguise.

;)


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

If you have some people driving two hours to get there, and the experience they're having while they are there is nothing but negative, then don't be suprised if they decide at some point that it's not worth the effort anymore.

Then all you're left with is the problem children.

Here's my 2 cents as someone who has also gone through this (I'm using the sulking comment as a main example):

-Don't make the mistake of generalizing to the group what is a specific problem with individuals.

It's easy to start feeling like, "everybody just sulks" when it's one or two people that just sulk. (You haven't shown any sign of doing this yet, but it's an easy trap that is just around the corner).

In the same way, don't generalize how you address it. As in, don't sit ALL your group down and talk about sulking problems in a general way when it's one or two individuals that have the problem. I think this is the biggest mistake DMs (or any group leader) can make, and it comes out of a natural aversion to confrontation. However, if you have REAL problem children, it will only serve to do two things: Irritate your good players because they're getting a lecture they don't deserve and let the problem ones off the hook because they don't have to own that THEY are the ones you're talking about.

If one or two are causing a problem, then talk to those one or two individually. Now. Before your next group session. You can use all the techniques everyone else has mentioned, but bottom line is if they aren't having fun themselves and they're causing others not to have fun, then there's no reason for them to continue coming.

As a DM, you work WAY too hard to let bad players destroy your group. Your good players look to you to provide an enjoyable experience for them, and you owe it to YOURSELF to take the bull by the horns and not let bad players tear down everything you've built.

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