Chris Manos's idea to create our own conversion threads for our favorite low-support campaign worlds strikes me as eminently sane and rational, so why don't we start with the world that plays host to the ORIGINAL Isle of Dread: Mystara!
Granted it's way too early to adapt the actual Savage Tide adventures, but we can start laying the groundwork right now by taking a look at SC and AoW as they would fit in... and by thinking about the nature of the Known World itself. There really isn't much 3.5 material for it.
For starters, it pays to keep in mind that the biggest difference between Mystara and the other worlds is one of power level. In the Forgotten Realms, a handful of epic-level wizards and whatnot exert great power behind the scenes; in Eberron, there are simply NO epic members of the common races, and may never have been. The Known World, in sharp contrast, is a place where it sometimes seems you can't throw a rock without hitting a 30th-level character; epic progression is an expected part of the adventuring life. There's an empire where you have to be an epic-level spellcaster just to be part of the government! Fortunately, the high-level characters form almost a separate ecosystem of their own in which they're too busy ruling countries, scheming against one another, and trying to achieve godhood to have much time to personally hassle the lowbies.
Anyway...
Cauldron (and by extension Kuluth-Mar) could fit in on the northern coast of Davania, near the tribal lands being conquered by the Thyatian Empire; this is a jungle area on the fringes of civilization, and not that far away from the Thanegioth Archipelago and the Isle of Dread itself.
Diamond Lake... a mining town in the south of the Republic of Darokin? This lets us replace Mistmarsh with the Malpheggi Swamp, and remnant lizardmen who have really good reason not to trust humans. The Free City then becomes the capital, Darokin itself. The Nyr Dyv is represented by Lake Amsorak, and we can easily drop Magepoint on its shores and the Order's island within it.
Redhand and the Bandit Kingdoms: I'm thinking the eastern Savage Coast. Even the name "Redhand" fits in with the Curse.
The Rift Canyon... might be best to drop this somewhere in undefined inland Brun, some distance northwest of Glantri. Alternately it might fit in, or be replaced by, the Broken Lands.
Kyuss's divine sponsor is no doubt Thanatos, lord of the Sphere of Entropy; setting something like the Age of Worms into motion is the kind of thing he does for kicks. (This is a god who deliberately engineered a situation in which his rival Immortals were forced to erase their own favorite nation from living memory to save the world. Nasty.)
So! (rubs hands together) Anyone else?
I love it!
Many D&D players these days say nothing of Mystara, thinking Greyhawk as the grand-daddy of D&D, but I think that a certain amount of credit must go to that campaign setting, hense this post.
I can imagine your comment sliding down the list because there are not enough people out there willing to look Mystara up (because they are new players, and Ebberon is so shiny) or they have little interest in it anymore, which is a shame.
Good on you! AoW is a perfect set-up for a high-level Mystara game, even the Rules Cyclopedia has got a workable system of rulership within (which has yet to appear in any 3ed books HINT) as well as more than enough high-level challenges to throw a stick at.
You kiddies with the big swords and high levels in the current campaigns think you're tough? Check out modules like Twilight Calling (one of the nastiest) in the basic D&D rules, them Carnifax should really make a reappearance and spank some campaign settings ill-equipped to defend against them...like ALL of them!
Savage Tide? Let's put it down near the Immortal's Arm.
I'm not one for long adventure paths myself, but seeing as I have a couple of friends in the writing pool this time around (and no don't ask me what they're writing because they won't tell and neither would I if they did), and I love the Known World (never did I play D&D with an "A") I suppose I should do the fan-like thing and hang out on this thread if you'll have me. If it sways opionins I did finish up a manuscript for a tie-in sequel to a old "B" line adventure a few months ago.
Hmmm I wonder if the Black Eagle Barony has anything on Alhaster? Von Hendricks? Zeech? Why they could be twins I'm sure.
GGG
This should be pretty easy. Replace Sasserine with Specularum in the Grand Duchy of Karameikos. This was the original port that Rory Barbarosa set sail from.
Any other island locations in the AP could be subbed out with the Thanegioth Archipeligo.
All right! Kindred spirits!
*dusts off Gazzeteers, Almanacks, Hollow World, WotI, the Five Holy Boxes, and sundry other stuff*
Let's see... the last I heard of von Hendriks he was still in exile, but if the timeline's progressed past PWA3 (I don't count the scribblings of that deranged halfling) then I have no idea where he is, but the Barony should be long since under new management, yes?
(And, to be honest, Zeech in his short lifespan developed more character than the randomly-tyrannous Black Eagle ever did.)
Hm. Living on the coast of California, I don't have access to the latest Dragon and Heard's new Princess Ark article yet. Anyone seen it, and if so, is there anything that seems relevant to this topic?
Meanwhile, I feel like digressing into cosmology... mostly for the benefit of any new readers checking the thread, but we might as well try to get this clear, seeing as how both SC and ST involve the Abyss.
Let me see... in the Known World cosmology, there's no Great Wheel; the Astral Plane is filled with a theoretically infinite number of drifting pocket planes, many of which have been colonized by the Immortals. And there are a lot of nested or otherwise linked planes among them. So it's not too far a stretch to posit the existence of an "Abyss" consisting of any number of linked planes inhabited by some truly nasty Entropic Immortals. Or some or all of the various layers visited in the APs could be separate, depending on the needs of the story. And as a reminder, the five "Spheres of Immortality" so often talked about in the Known World material are in no sense locations -- they're concepts and affiliations.
(There's also the note that, rather than being only quasi-divine entities, Orcus, Demogorgon, and the other "demon lords" are full-fledged deities in this setting, on par with the greatest Immortals of the other Spheres. So they ought to have actual divine ranks, or whatever system is used to represent Immortality.)
Adimarchus's story could be pretty much the same, from what I know of it (I didn't start collecting Dungeon in earnest until SC was over, so my knowledge of that one is scanty). Just change a few of the locations, file off the serial numbers... The demodands and their basic goal re: Cauldron also doesn't need much tweaking, except to point out that most Immortals of ANY sphere who got wind of the scheme would have been horrified at the potential destruction of Mystara's balance... okay, maybe it DOES need a rewrite... n.n;
More cosmological notes, focusing on Kyuss.
I'm going to use "god" and "Immortal" interchangeably here. Despite the protestations of some authors, there really isn't any difference worth noting.
...I'm not quite sure if the 3rd edition Deities and Demigods rules are really sufficient to describe Immortals -- they seem to have a much greater breadth of powers available to them, along with many more levels of power before you hit Old One and vanish in a puff of overgodliness -- but let's start with that anyway:
The gods of Mystara face one crippling flaw: divinity doesn't breed true. Even the offspring of two Immortals will never possess any divine ranks -- they might be half-celestial (or -whatever) creatures, or even full-fledged outsiders, but from a god's perspective they're still ordinary mortals.
Any Immortal can grant any willing mortal divine rank 0 with a simple expenditure of Power, but this is a poor substitute for the real thing; beings with rank 0 (generically known as Titans) do not receive power from worship, and can NEVER advance in divine rank to become true gods -- they may not even be able to gain further class levels, or indeed advance in any way whatsoever from that day forth. Titan status is reserved for favored servants of the Immortals who just don't have what it takes to achieve true power.
True power, in this sense, can only be achieved by the Paths of Immortality -- fairly well-defined careers that amount to vast, years- or even centuries-long magical rituals that prepare the quester to receive true godhood. In short, Immortals can -only- bestow positive divine ranks on someone who has completed one of the Paths. (It doesn't even have to be knowing completion -- several Immortals, such as Ka and Yav, were quite surprised to find themselves ascended.)
In this context, it becomes evident that Kyuss's life represents a twisted Entropic version of the Path of the Dynast, the traditional clerical route to Immortality -- he invented countless new forms of undeath, founded a nation and ruled over it for some time, built a great monument, then sacrificed his people to achieve godhood. It's entirely possible that Kyuss's path was not finished until the final prophecy of the AoW came to pass, that he wasn't a true Immortal until his actual release from the monolith, in which case Thanatos would have been granting spells to the Kyuss cult.
another thing not to forget is the role that Demogorgon himself played in the Known World setting. :)
In those days fiends were Immortal-level monsters, only 30+ levels of PCs could take those babies out.
Yeah, they were Exalted/titan level critters. We can skip that, though, and just use 3.5 writeups, perhaps giving some of the more powerful nalfeshnees and balors and what-all Rank 0 to reflect Entropic favor. (And of course Alphaks the Roaring Demon is basically a balor with 30+ wizard levels before you add in divinity.)
...Now, upon rereading the first and second Immortals boxes, I'm reminded of a serious obstacle.
On Oerth, where most of the gods are kinda distant, you can see Kyuss popping up with no hope to stop him but the PCs. Faerun, much the same deal.
But in the Mystaran cosmology, the Immortals are organized into a more complex society. They have laws and customs -- and they police some of them rigorously.
Immortals are forbidden to manifest fully on the Prime Plane -- and the Intrusion Council is constantly on watch for such interference, and they won't hesitate to come down and personally throw whoever violated the Balance a savage beating. In short, the deus-ex-machina save is MANDATED BY THE SETTING. If Kyuss actually pops out of his monolith and starts the Age of Worms then and there, the PCs shouldn't need to lift a finger -- he's acting illegally and will be stopped by higher powers.
I have no idea how to spin this. Part of the problem is that it's already been done, several times, and any new tactic to keep the Immortals from noticing would seem like beating a dead horse...
But in the meantime, let me try to continue with some Diamond Lake church conversion notes...
Church of St. Cuthbert -- there are a few good substitutes, but I'm inclined to the idea that this is a distant outpost of the Church of Karameikos, a LN pantheistic order whose dogma bears a fair resemblance to that of dark ages Catholicism. Self-flagellation would fit right in to a fringe temple.
Wee Jas -- Nyx, benevolent lady of the undead, an Entropic who isn't evil so much as plain strange. She views undeath as the natural conclusion to life, preferring those forms of undead that retain their free will and are not ruled by unnatural hungers Z(necropolitans, liches, etc.), so her priests would stand against Kyuss and his worms.
Heironeous -- Thor, patron of honorable and courageous warriors. Alternately, Diulanna, Halav, or Tarastia.
Obad-Hai -- Ordana the Forest Mother, or maybe Djaea.
The Ebon Triad -- not sure, except that Thanatos himself is included in place of Nerull, and of course secretly backing the whole thing despite protests to the contrary.
...And another piece of evidence that the Reaper is behind Kyuss's rise: it was he who created the Burrowers, creatures of corruption and madness in the form of immense worms. :)
If Sasserine can equal Specularum(Mirros), Karameikos that would be cool, but I got the impression Sasserine would be close to Cauldron?
I definately think Cauldron should be on the Davanian coast, which is near the Isle of Dread as it should be.
Don't worry about the former status of the Demon Lords (Orcus and Demogorgon); they were revised to being regular Immortals under the WotI rules. I think basically, Immortals should be considered Deities, as is suggested.
The rules against immortal interference can be tricky, but there are ways of getting around it, as we have seen a number of times. The best way is usually to create some distraction, or make Kyuss able to hide is actions somehow. (An artifact perhaps?)
Good catch on the Thanatos/Kyuss Worms-Burrowers connection. It was what got me interested in the Age of Worms, alas sadly too late. I wont make that mistake with this AP :)
Håvard
Maybe if aspects and avatars don't count as Manifestations... it is reasonably possible for a mid-to-high-level party to defeat such things, so they might be allowable under Immortal law.
As for how the bad guys expect to get away with the AoW...
...okay. I think this can work.
Above all, the Immortals have to maintain the Balance of the spheres and elements on the Prime Plane -- without that, the Prime's high rate of successful candidates for Immortality goes down the drain. Something as vast and horrible as the Age of Worms would, you'd think, upset Mystara's balance completely, and be something that prognosticating Immortals would spot well in advance.
But this is the work of Thanatos, whose plans span millennia and who isn't about to let a mere government security agency run by gods stand in his way. As ever, the worms are the key.
The green worm, though a vector of undeath, is a living creature; in the Mystara variant, it is designed to possess an overabundance of life-force, so much that a wormspawned undead will actually "read" to the Balance just as it did in life -- hence, the AoW is simply a transition from one state of balance to another.
Kyuss's monolith, here (and possibly in the original; I still haven't got the chance to read Dawn of a New Age), functions as a long-term storage device for his Immortal energies, building up enough power to warp Mystara's ecosystem in a phenomenally short time, so that by the time the Intrusion Council notices, it will already be too late. Only the PCs will be there on time to destroy the Wormgod's avatar form and cause the whole plan to fizzle out.
Or not the whole thing: there's simply no way they can truly slay Kyuss. The Age of Worms has been stopped, but the Wormgod will still ascend to join his endlessly patient patron in further plots. The party would be wise to seek out the paths to Immortality, purely in self-defense... :)
One thought though, does Kyuss have to be an Immortal in the Mystara setting? A 36th level Lich with immense powers rising to divinity through completing his Immortal Entropic Quests would make a suitable substitute. Sure it doesn't have the ooomph of killing a god, but it allows the event to happen...
A good point, that. If all the devotional energy channeled towards Kyuss was being diverted into the monolith for the sole purpose of invoking the AoW... and he doesn't get his Immortality unless and until the Age is insured... yeah, that works.
(Also, there's no need to hew to the magic number 36 in 3.5 Mystara. Can't see any reason, other than GM sanity, why you couldn't have, say, a 47th level fighter still plugging away at her Path.)
(Also, there's no need to hew to the magic number 36 in 3.5 Mystara. Can't see any reason, other than GM sanity, why you couldn't have, say, a 47th level fighter still plugging away at her Path.)
I think the general consensus on converting Classic D&D characters to 3.5 is that you divide all levels above 10th by 2, so a 36th level character in classic would become a 23rd level character in 3.5.
That said, Kyuss could ofcourse be of any level. I like that the whole Age of Worms thing would be the conclusion of his quest for Immortality with Thanatos as his sponsor. It would give the whole AP a distinctive Mystaran flavour. I like it!
Håvard
I think the general consensus on converting Classic D&D characters to 3.5 is that you divide all levels above 10th by 2, so a 36th level character in classic would become a 23rd level character in 3.5.
Now that's wrong and I can prove it.
There's no way in hell that a 23rd level wizard could handle the magnitude of epic spellcasting that would be required to create something like Floating Ar. You need levels in the 30s or higher even to begin on the whole "radical transformation of a region" thing.
No, I think the high-level characters should retain a lot more of their highlevelness in 3.5. It's part of the Known World's charm.
Plus the old conversion rules only existed because 2nd ed had a 20lvl cap, when you look at the comparatives now there is no way to justify converting a 36th level anything across to 23rd (ish) levels. The amount of magical influence that these guys had put 20th levelers to shame, can you say 9x 9th level spells per day?
Chris Manos's idea ... strikes me as eminently sane and rational...
T'was not my intent. I appologize. :)
Plus the old conversion rules only existed because 2nd ed had a 20lvl cap, when you look at the comparatives now there is no way to justify converting a 36th level anything across to 23rd (ish) levels. The amount of magical influence that these guys had put 20th levelers to shame, can you say 9x 9th level spells per day?
Hmmm...I guess you have a point. OTOH, they didnt get a HD for every level, so comparing power between the systems becomes problematic.
But I'm not going to make this a major objection. I have no problems accepting Epic level characters of any level in the campaign; certainly for someone like Kyuss.
Håvard
This should be pretty easy. Replace Sasserine with Specularum in the Grand Duchy of Karameikos. This was the original port that Rory Barbarosa set sail from.
Maybe not... if you're starting in the jungle near Cauldron, it might make more sense to have Sasserine be the capital of the Thyatian-occupied Hinterlands. Don't see why you couldn't still use the original X1 text of Barbarosa's journal anyway.
Cauldron, maybe a surviving outpost of the Milenian Empire that's been in touch with the northern continent for a couple of centuries?
While I'm a big believer in adapting the setting to the system rather than the other way around, which is why the "official" Mystara-to-3rd-edition site bugs me, after reading the PHB2 it occurs to me that one way to capture some of the original system's flavor is simply to make Duskblade the favored class for most types of elf. :)
Maybe not... if you're starting in the jungle near Cauldron, it might make more sense to have Sasserine be the capital of the Thyatian-occupied Hinterlands. Don't see why you couldn't still use the original X1 text of Barbarosa's journal anyway.
I think I prefer this version. Since the northern coast of Davania hasnt been detailed too well in the past, this makes it easier to just use whatever details are given of Sasserine. We can even use its name.
Cauldron, maybe a surviving outpost of the Milenian Empire that's been in touch with the northern continent for a couple of centuries?
Sounds like an interesting background idea for Cauldron. I'd need to read up on AP1, but does that mean Kyuss was probably a Milennian in mortal life?
Håvard
While I'm a big believer in adapting the setting to the system rather than the other way around, which is why the "official" Mystara-to-3rd-edition site bugs me, after reading the PHB2 it occurs to me that one way to capture some of the original system's flavor is simply to make Duskblade the favored class for most types of elf. :)
I was never too enthusiastic about that aspect of the M3E project either. I run all Core races and classes as they are presented in 3.5E and I don't really feel that that changes the Mystaran feel too much. It is different from Classic D&D, but thats one reason I'm running 3.5E in the first place...
Håvard
Sounds like an interesting background idea for Cauldron. I'd need to read up on AP1, but does that mean Kyuss was probably a Milennian in mortal life?
Håvard
I'd say one of the original Traldar refugees, maybe even a student of Zirchev gone bad? :)
I was never too enthusiastic about that aspect of the M3E project either. I run all Core races and classes as they are presented in 3.5E and I don't really feel that that changes the Mystaran feel too much. It is different from Classic D&D, but thats one reason I'm running 3.5E in the first place...
Håvard
A couple of tweaks could be added to preserve flavor -- give Rockhome dwarves a small amount of spell resistance that grows (slowly!) with total character level; give halflings on Five Shires soil a counterspell once per day; and, as stated earlier, make duskblade the favored class for most elves.
But there shall be no level caps or class restrictions! Fie upon such silliness!
I'd say one of the original Traldar refugees, maybe even a student of Zirchev gone bad? :)
Interesting! Actually a friend of mine suggested he could have been advisor to King Milen, who lead the Traldar refugees to Milennia in the first place. Sounds like it would fit very well with AoW.
Oh, and for the record, I was never advovating level caps in 3E. My suggestions above simply involved how to handle conversion of existing NPCs from the old system.
A couple of tweaks could be added to preserve flavor -- give Rockhome dwarves a small amount of spell resistance that grows (slowly!) with total character level; give halflings on Five Shires soil a counterspell once per day; and, as stated earlier, make duskblade the favored class for most elves.
These would work. Personally I like to handle these things through racial feats while keeping the core races identical to the ones in the core books.
Håvard
Eh, tomato, tomahto. :)
Well, there's now enough ideas buzzing through my head to write a small sourcebook. Or maybe a Dragon article -- Races of Mystara, anyone?
Sadly, my internet access will be curtailed for the next week or two, but I'll try to leave this on a high point...
THE WHISPERING CAIRN: MYSTARA CONVERSION
Diamond Lake is a mining town in southern Darokin, in the foothills of the Cruth Mountains between Mar and Hinmeet (three hexes northeast of Mar on the Darokin Gazetteer map). It is in fact the capital of a very small Borderland holding (that includes neither of those neighboring towns), and Lanod Neff is not merely governor-mayor of the town but Magistrate of the Border. He answers to the Inner Council in Darokin City.
Diamond Lake is quite peaceful as Borderlands go; while the Cruth peaks are on the wild side, its southern neighbor is the quiet and prosperous Five Shires, and as such the region is rarely under any serious military threat. Diamond Lake is likely the next Borderland to be absorbed into the Heartlands, a prospect which Neff will go to great lengths to avoid.
In this year of AC 1015 (or whatever), the Darokinian economy is in trouble. The country is still recovering from the War of the Desert Nomads and the meteor impact of 1009, and the radical climate changes imposed by the Shadow Elves aren't helping any. (After several years of failed diplomatic efforts, the Darokinian public has stopped thinking of their new neighbors as sinister and evil and begun thinking of them as stubborn idiots -- it's become increasingly clear that the twisted forest of Aengmor is no fit place even for shadow elves, but they persist in rebuffing offers to restore the place.) In short, Darokin isn't the shining beacon of enlightened capitalism and international commerce it once was. But the citizens of the Republic are, for the most part, dedicated to restoring its glory... while making a profit.
Word of warning before we go further: I believe in acquiring as many of the books as possible, and making use of all of them, and if that means I mention a rule or prestige class you've never heard of... well, too bad. n.n; Substitute something from the books you have, or wing it for yourself. I seriously recommend getting the PHB2 in particular.
Conversion notes:
Any personality from the Darokin books listed as part-elven can safely be run as a half-elf.
Most Darokin merchants and diplomats are experts. The "Merchant Class" can be turned into the Merchant Prince prestige class from Power of Faerun, renaming a few of their abilities to reflect the Immortals of your choice (Asterius is an obvious choice) or just dropping the divine references entirely. Smenk, Tilgast, and Dourstone are all high enough level to be rebuilt with one or two levels of this class -- I'll look into that later.
Each of the mine managers of Diamond Lake is the head of his or her own very minor merchant house; each has visions of absorbing the others' operations and rising to become one of the Great Houses of Darokin. So far, they've at least managed to stay independent of the Greats; agents of any of the nine leading houses can be encountered in the area.
Ellival Moonmeadow is from the northern elven realm of Wendar, and as such is not as concerned with Aengmor as the local elves; still, he isn't likely to be sympathetic to any shadow elf PCs.
By the numbers, from Backdrop: Diamond Lake:
3. The Feral Dog - Tirra is a 7th level spellthief (Complete Adventurer).
4. Church of St. Cuthbert - The Church of Karameikos, where Jierdan Wierus (LN male human cleric of Vanya 7) presides over his slightly-heretical branch of a pantheistic religion from the next kingdom over.
12. Garrison - the Chapel of Heironeous becomes the Chapel of Thor. Valkus Dun wields warhammers rather than longswords.
14. The Midnight Salute - Purple Prose is a spellthief 3, and a Glantrian scion of Clan Alhambra -- a "flamenco elf."
...That's all I have time for; it'll probably be two weeks or more before I can continue. Laters.
I'd say this sounds pretty good.
For those who dont have all the books you refer to (well not that many yet, but still), they should be pretty easy to convert: Spellthief=Wizard/Rogue, Merchant Prince=Rogue/Bard
Håvard
Boy, I wish I'd found this thread back when it first came up. But no matter, now that I have found it, I can step up as the official "Benevolent Dictator" of the unofficially "official" M3E Conversion project and defend at least some of our work. :-)
And, by the way, for those who have never seen the M3E conversion, the site for finalized conversion notes is at [url]http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/m3e/[/url] and the yahoo group where we post our in-progress and approved-but-not-yet-published work is at [url]http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/mystara3E/[/url]
(Also, there's no need to hew to the magic number 36 in 3.5 Mystara. Can't see any reason, other than GM sanity, why you couldn't have, say, a 47th level fighter still plugging away at her Path.)I think the general consensus on converting Classic D&D characters to 3.5 is that you divide all levels above 10th by 2, so a 36th level character in classic would become a 23rd level character in 3.5.
This isn't entirely accurate. The method we did choose for character level conversion can be accessed directly at this URL: [url]http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/m3e/pages/conversions.htm#Step2-3ECharLevel[/url].
The basic gist for most human characters is that levels up to 13 are one for one, then it's one 3E level for every additional 2 0E level until level 35. At level 36 the conversion opens wide, so that characters at 36th-level may be converted to a 3E Character Level higher than 25th-level, based on how much time has passed and/or adventuring has occurred since reaching the maximum 0E character level. That is, it effectively depends on how much additional XP the character has (or, for NPCs, could reasonably have) accumulated since achieving 36th-level.
Halfings, Dwarves, Elves and Human "Foresters" first have their current level converted to a 0E Human "equivalent" and then that is converted using the above rules. Although the current site doesn't say so (mistake on my part, as the web master), any demi-human at max level can also be pushed to a higher effective level if appropriate.
Either way, as Evil Midnight Lurker says, anyone seeking Immortality could just as easily be placed at 3E level 45 as at level 36.
Jenni
While I'm a big believer in adapting the setting to the system rather than the other way around, which is why the "official" Mystara-to-3rd-edition site bugs me, after reading the PHB2 it occurs to me that one way to capture some of the original system's flavor is simply to make Duskblade the favored class for most types of elf. :)
I was never too enthusiastic about that aspect of the M3E project either. I run all Core races and classes as they are presented in 3.5E and I don't really feel that that changes the Mystaran feel too much. It is different from Classic D&D, but thats one reason I'm running 3.5E in the first place...
To each his or her own of course. :-)
To be fair, we don't actually restrict any of the races - not even the half elf which is explicitly noted as "not existing" in the Alfheim Gaz, as can be seen at this URL: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/m3e/pages/races.htm#halfelves
We have proposed modifications to the elf race, creating Mystaran-specific sub-races for the "standard" Wood Elf (i.e., the Alfheim elves, "Alfund" or Minrothad Wood Elves, and similar "cousins" like the Calarii), the "Alfasser" (Mirothad Water Elves), and the Shadow Elves, although only the Wood Elf is currently available on the "published" web site: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/m3e/pages/races.htm#elf-wood.
We've even provided variants when two options for "tweaking" something were hotly contested, even after being put to a Yahoo! group-wide vote. So, for example, if you like your elves to be inherantly magical, you can use the variant sub-race modification that gives them a small set of cantrips like the standard Gnome, or you can stick with the main sub-race variant which bases their magical tendencies on social upbringing, granting them access to a "Magical Training" regional feat and modifying the 1st level class feat for wizards trained in an appropriate manner.
A couple of tweaks could be added to preserve flavor -- give Rockhome dwarves a small amount of spell resistance that grows (slowly!) with total character level; give halflings on Five Shires soil a counterspell once per day; and, as stated earlier, make duskblade the favored class for most elves.
Sounds like I should invest in the PHBII - this duskblade class sounds like it could be a useful option to consider.
But there shall be no level caps or class restrictions! Fie upon such silliness!
Absolutely! Level caps and hard class restrictions are useless. However I do believe that "soft" class restrictions are a useful way of adding "campaign flavour" without stomping on anyone's creativity.
And by "soft" class restrictions, I mean things like suggesting that Dwarves rarely have the necessary talent to become Wizards or Sorcerers and those few that do and choose to follow it through are seen as extremely strange and are often shunned by Dwarven society, or that Dwarves who hear the call of the divine are almost always called to be clerics of Kagyar who demands that they maintain a high level of secrecy about their status outside of Dwarven communities. Dwarves who publicly announce to other dwarves a dedication to another deity would likely find there to be an odd standoffishness from them when interacting in the future. Neither one stops a player from choosing to play a Dwarf Wizard or Dwarf Cleric of Valarias, it just makes the consequences of their choice a bit more interesting.
Jenni
I only figured out how to make URLs act like links in my second post, so I'm just reposting a few of the URLs from my first post...
And, by the way, for those who have never seen the M3E conversion, the site for finalized conversion notes is at http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/m3e/ and the yahoo group where we post our in-progress and approved-but-not-yet-published work is at http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/mystara3E/.
The method we did choose for character level conversion can be accessed directly at this URL: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/m3e/pages/conversions.htm#Step2-3ECharLevel.
-j
And by "soft" class restrictions, I mean things like suggesting that Dwarves rarely have the necessary talent to become Wizards or Sorcerers and those few that do and choose to follow it through are seen as extremely strange and are often shunned by Dwarven society, or that Dwarves who hear the call of the divine are almost always called to be clerics of Kagyar who demands that they maintain a high level of secrecy about their status outside of Dwarven communities. Dwarves who publicly announce to other dwarves a dedication to another deity would likely find there to be an odd standoffishness from them when interacting in the future. Neither one stops a player from choosing to play a Dwarf Wizard or Dwarf Cleric of Valarias, it just makes the consequences of their choice a bit more interesting.
I think this is very useful. It goes into the setting rather than simply looking at the rules. Dwarven clerics of other Immortals than Kagyar will likely be considered outcasts in Rockhome. Dwarven Wizards even worse. Ofcourse that doesn't rule out the idea that there are undiscovered cultures on Mystara where this is the norm. Although not expressed in canon material, I think Alphatia would welcome such characters, perhaps even within Denwarf Hurgon. (Ofcourse, Orthodox extremist Dwarves of Denwarf Hurgon insist on Kagyar being worshipped exclusively ;) )
Håvard
Matrissa: I wasn't harshing on your group at all, but on the extremely sketchy Pandius site. Had no idea you existed until just now. :)
The "take" on Mystaran elves I've been thinking of is fairly similar to yours, but maybe a bit less specific. I agree entirely with the "soft" concept and its ramifications -- PCs shouldn't be prevented from taking career tracks that NPCs of their cultures would consider too weird for words.
The way I figure it is that magic is so ingrained into M-elves (aside from Blacklore and Gentle Folk) that it's almost unheard of to find one who doesn't have at least one level in some class that grants some kind of spellcasting or magical powers - even their "experts" are actually magewrights (Eberron Campaign Setting), and just being an elf is good enough reason to take all manner of feats granting minor magical powers, such as the regional feats from FRCS or the spell-group feats from Complete Arcane. Elves who would in human societies be rogues become spellthieves, fighter-types become hexblades or duskblades (shich really -are- the classic Elven Fighter-Magic-Users), etc. There are so many options available these days that it's easy to structure elf civilization like this. PC elves, of course, can go ahead and ignore all this to be single-class fighters or whatever, but even some humans will find them odd. :)
If you use the flaw rules in your campaign, I'd suggest making a special flaw available only to elves (non-Blacklore/Gentle) and humans from Glantri or Alphatia: Mundanity. Characters with the mundanity flaw can never learn arcane spells or gain class features involving arcane spell-like or supernatural abilities, even if they go so far as to gain levels in an arcane spellcasting class. Mundanity exists in other cultures, of course, but no one else makes so much of a fuss about it. :) For most Mystaran PCs, the decision of whether or not to be -capable- of arcane magic is simply a cosmetic choice.
Just to be weird, I have the following suggestions regarding Magic of Arcanum and Tome of Magic:
Arcanum - Up until quite recently, the only race on Mystara that had meldshaping classes was the Shadow Elves -- their shamans are incarnates and soulborn. This was the result of their long-term exposure to the filtered and purified form of the Radiance that gathered in the soul-crystals -- incarnum isn't really soul energy at all in this setting, although many who use it believe it to be such.
When the Nucleus of the Spheres was altered, however, it began emitting this balanced Radiance directly; wizards studying the Radiance have found their old powers mutating into new forms, and all three meldshaper classes have been springing up around Glantri (totemists are found primarily in the Broken Lands and Ethengar).
Tome of Magic -
Binders can be found pretty much anywhere, if you dig deep enough. Especially in "dark" regions like Glantri, where some of them might even operate openly (would the Church of Rad have forbidden them along with conventional religions?). Some vestiges might actually be Old Ones in disguise, keeping an eye on things in a very subtle way.
Shadowcasting's true home is the Five Shires, where the hin see nothing at all wrong or sinster about it -- the power of blackflame is part of their cultural heritage. Good-aligned shadowcasters may even be in the majority among halflings.
Truenamers already exist as one of the Seven Secret Crafts of Glantri, and need simply be upgraded to comply with ToM.
Plus the old conversion rules only existed because 2nd ed had a 20lvl cap, when you look at the comparatives now there is no way to justify converting a 36th level anything across to 23rd (ish) levels. The amount of magical influence that these guys had put 20th levelers to shame, can you say 9x 9th level spells per day?
2nd edition AD&D had no level cap.
The 2nd edition DMG says:
"Theoretically, there is no upper limit to character class levels (although there are racial limitations). The material presented here takes characters only to 20th level--experience has shown that player characters are most enjoyable when played within the 1-20 range. Above 20th level, characters gain few additional powers and face even fewer truly daunting adventures."
So the game only outlined levels 1-20, but 20 was not an absolute limit.
So the game only outlined levels 1-20, but 20 was not an absolute limit.
The spellcasting abilities above 20th level were given in the Complete Necromancers Handbook. Probably in other books as well, but I remember this one.
Stefan
Haavard wrote:
"I think the general consensus on converting Classic D&D characters to 3.5 is that you divide all levels above 10th by 2, so a 36th level character in classic would become a 23rd level character in 3.5."
I take this back. There are various models used by the more prominent online Mystara fans, though few seem to use the 1:1 model.
Though I lean toward "keep it simple" in Mystara 3e conversion discussions, I feel that "36 levels" is an icon of Mystara. I feel that, at least for official NPCS, that it is most fitting to for one 0e class level to equal one 3.5e character level. This would result in having to select a whole bunch of feats and spells to fill out the NPCs' stats, but this is also true of other worlds' NPCs that were converted, such as Elminster. Since the 3.5e DMG (unlike the 3.0 DMG) includes epic-level progressions it is part of the core rules.
Having thought of this a bit, I am leaning towards using this conversion model myself. Although conversions will become more complex, but I like the idea of the powerful Mystarans becoming truly powerful, once again. :)
Even though the "2.5e" Players/DMs Options series clearly laid out class progressions up to level 40, the 36-level progression of the 0e Mystara Reality was smooshed into 20 levels in the official 2e Mystara Reality (the one seen in the AD&D Mystara products such as the Karameikos and Glantri boxed sets and the later almanacs). Though the official 2e Reality is this way doesn't mean the 3e Mystara Reality must be. There would likely be other differences between the two realities, such as how 2e Mystara is a part of the Great Wheel and Spelljammer cosmology (some Immortals were mentioned in a 2e book about celestials...I forget the title...and the First Quest boxed set reportedly has a a Spelljammer tie-in for Karameikos), while in any official 3e Mystara Reality, it would likely have its own cosmology based on the Gold Box and WotI boxed sets (though any useful 2e Mystara bits could be merged in too).
Agreed. There is no reason why a 3E Mystara needs to bring in all the modified elements from the 2E version that indeed contradicted OD&D material. I dont think the 2E material should be ignored, since there is a large amount of interesting information within those books, but where things have been changed to conform to 2E reality, this can favorably be reverted back to its original OD&D form.
Havard
Has anyone bought the STAP Player's Guide yet? I did and it's making me think that Sasserine should probably be put on the northern Davania coast due to the exotic pet monsters and such from Azure district. Perhaps it could be used for Garganin, Katellios or even Raven Scarp?
--Ray.
I can't wait for Savage Tide to get started. I bought the Player Guide it's been shipped to me today. As Mystara, the best thing I like about it is the fact in amy Mystaran game that is begun will have room for my own favorite race: Lupin
Has anyone bought the STAP Player's Guide yet? I did and it's making me think that Sasserine should probably be put on the northern Davania coast due to the exotic pet monsters and such from Azure district. Perhaps it could be used for Garganin, Katellios or even Raven Scarp?
Hi Ray,
I havent bought it yet, but I am planning to. I also think northern Davania would be the best location of Sasserine. I dont really know enough about those cities to know if any of them would be good substitutes for Sasserine. Raven Scarp is a meeting point for the Barbarian Tribes of the region isnt it?What do you think of the Player's Guide?
Håvard
Hi Ray,
I havent bought it yet, but I am planning to. I also think northern Davania would be the best location of Sasserine. I dont really know enough about those cities to know if any of them would be good substitutes for Sasserine. Raven Scarp is a meeting point for the Barbarian Tribes of the region isnt it?What do you think of the Player's Guide?
Håvard
I still have to research those cities too. Of the three, I thought that Raven Scarp would be the worst choice but I didn't know why until you posted. Certainly one of the PWAs or DotE will have the information that I seek. I'm leaning toward using Garganin simply because I know so little about it. I think Kastellios is a left-over from the Milenian Empire so the Greek culture may not fit so well with Sasserine.
As for the Player's Guide, I enjoyed reading it. I think it's a good overview of Sasserine from a player's point-of-view. There are no character stats, just descriptive information. It outlines each district of the city and includes a new feat and character ideas, major NPCs and a few rumors for each. Any DM worth being called a DM will be able to use this information to do much more with the city even if they have nothing else to use.
I say buy it! It's a good use of $5.00! In fact, buy two! Pazio could use the $$$ (on Mystara!). :)
--Ray.
Did a little bit of reading last night in PWA3. I learned that of the three cities I named, Garganin would be the best to use as Sasserine. Garganin is a Hulean colony that the mother country has lost contact with in the last 100 years or so. With a little bit of reworking such as adding some deviners and clerics of Bozdogen (aka Loki), it could work.
Another option would be to just place Sasserine on the Davania coastline. Perhaps east of Ravens Scarp, south of Ochalea? IIRC, the map from the PG has jungle around the edges of the city.
--Ray.
Another option would be to just place Sasserine on the Davania coastline. Perhaps east of Ravens Scarp, south of Ochalea? IIRC, the map from the PG has jungle around the edges of the city.
I think this is the best option! This way we can use Sasserine more or less as is and simply remove any Core 3E/Greyhawk references replacing them with our own Mystara goodness!
I'll try and get my hands on the PG ASAP. :)
Håvard
Been following this thread for a while now, waiting to get my magazine before settling on anything. I had always thought Davania would be a good location, and will be setting Sasserine there as an undiscovered city at the mouth of the river north of Glauqnor. This way I can import the material with almost no conversion.
Sasserine would have originally come from Thyatis around 300 AC. Gives the place ties to the Thyatian language which shold help with any non-local PCs. Also ties in the gladiator arena well. I'll replace the Scarlet Brotherhood references with Hule/Sind and the Sea Princes with Thyatis (trying to bring Sasserine into the Hinterlands). Aniphastus Knowlern will be a Minrothaddan water elf. I may modify the population a bit, i.e. half-elves replaced by perhaps Emerondi or Yav. Halflings could be natives left-over from the northern immigration. Elves would probably be descended from a few Vyalia tempted into exploring the south. Not sure on the dwarves yet.
The one thing I see as an immediate need before I can get this to players is for Immortals to replace the stated gods. I'm thinking along these lines and would like to hear any other thoughts/plans:
Azure (Osprem, Procan, Xerbo)– Protius (perhaps worshipped in three separate aspects)
Kord – Diulanna (not really sure on this one, could be Thor/Donar...)
St. Cuthbert – Tarastia
Fharlanghn – Asterius
Olidammara – Korotiku (who'd just love being St. Worgul...)
Pelor – Ixion
Wee Jas – Nyx
Vecna – Loki (as represented by Bozdogan-imported from Sind)
Nerull – Thanatos
This configuration has most of the Immortals allied to each other in some way (except Protius who just doesn't care). And Thanatos/Loki really hate a lot of these Immortals so would want to infiltrate the city. Nyx was the only fit I could really come up with for Wee Jas.
Probably going to rewrite the Sasserine Backdrop article for myself tomorrrow to encompass all this, and will do the same with the Player's Guide once it comes out as a PDF.
Having part of Savage Tide play out on the Savage Coast might be nice. But I hope the hole Red Steel/Red Curse/Legacy bit can be toned down a bit. Personally I thought the whole cinnabryl turning into red steel bit to be interesting but the legacies were too much munchkinism for my tastes. But I bought the Red Steel boxed set for the rules on making Lupin, Rakasta and Tortle pcs more than anything else. Especially the Lupin. The fact that they got unlimited advancement in the Ranger class made me happy back then. Now in 3.5 their favored class is Ranger. Now if only there was a way to alter that prejudice against werewolves or delete it in favor of getting another feat...
I am planning on running STAP in Mystara, but it will be my own Mystara. I never played 2nd Edition Mystara, so basically what I'm familiar with is the Known World area. I'm planning on using Specularum as a stand-in for Sasserine. I think it will work, but I'll have to read the next couple of adventures to know for sure. The area surrounding Specularum is nothing like the area surrounding Sasserine, but I'm hoping I can make it fit.
I'm with you on using mostly the older Mystara sources (I never even got the Rules Cyclopedia...). Specularum was my original candidate for the game's central city (as Karameikos is almost always my default starting point), but I later wanted to go with something that would require less re-work. I actually had been split between Davania (you can find some info on it in the old Dawn of the Emperors set) and the Minrothad Guilds until I got the magazine.
In Minrothad, the city of Harbortown seems like an excellent candidate--lots of mercantile and pirate flavor, an established location for trade in exotic spices and such, etc. It's also not documented much in any other sources, could pretty easily be morphed into the Sasserine map, and with the Guild Corser influence there even has a good reason for having a somewhat lawless atmosphere compared to other Minrothaddan cities. It's a really old city, too, and one could play off the Alphatians and Thyatians as the two powers fighting for it in the past.
In the end, Davania won out for me as such an open canvas, but Harbortown was a strong contender.
For most my players, they'll be from the Known World region so I'm still relying heavily on that material for their backgrounds--they all come to Sasserine therefore with little initial knowledge of the city. I'm not real keen on the "hired hands" hook in the first adventure and have done away with it in favor of another approach. Most of the characters traveled across the Sea of Dread on the same ship with Lavinia Vanderboren as she returns from her five years of study in Thyatis (versus the Thenalar Academy noted in the adventure). They will have had quite some time, then, to get to know her personally. She offers them hospitality on arriving at Sasserine and will later look to them for support as all the troubles come to light.