This is nitpicky. But black and white dragons do not fall into the chromatic category. Black and white are not colors; they lack chroma. You cannot have an intense or subdued black or white; you get gray. To be the chromatic dragon family, it should be red, green, blue, yellow, orange and purple dragons. Black and white are on their own. These are "the value dragons" or the "tint and shade dragons" if they have minor accents of color. If they were just called "the evil dragons", which sounds lame, I wouldn't have a problem. But once you label them "chromatic" and include black and white, the whole system gets out of whack. I FEEL LIKE I'M GONNA EXPLODE, MAN!!!
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Or...do I hate the bears more than the remainder of how much I like Tony Dungy minus how much I can't stand Peyton Manning?!?
Awww...c'mon, nobody likes Tony Dungy! Colts down 18 against the Steelers, he wants to punt on 4th-and-short, only to be overridden by Manning. Of course, the Colts went on to win, no thanks to the Dungmeister.
Still, I don't hate him like this guy, though...
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Or...do I hate the bears more than the remainder of how much I like Tony Dungy minus how much I can't stand Peyton Manning?!?Awww...c'mon, nobody likes Tony Dungy! Colts down 18 against the Steelers, he wants to punt on 4th-and-short, only to be overridden by Manning. Of course, the Colts went on to win, no thanks to the Dungmeister.
Still, I don't hate him like this guy, though...
I guess not....CUSS WORD ALERT ON ABOVE.....
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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This is nitpicky. But black and white dragons do not fall into the chromatic category. Black and white are not colors; they lack chroma.
Umm... actually, black and white *ARE* chromatic (well, black is anyway and white could be argued as such). This is why black and white televisions are called 'monochrome.'
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I made a grey dragon back in the day to "complete the spectrum". For some bizarre reason, it never occurred to me to make brown or yellow dragons, but hey, I was 14...
The old 2nd edition draconomicon had rules for making mixed species dragons. So you could make purple dragons, orange dragons, pink dragons, green dragons (half yellow/blue), and gray dragons.
So, in 3.5 do you apply the half dragon template to a true dragon if different species mate?
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This is nitpicky. But black and white dragons do not fall into the chromatic category. Black and white are not colors; they lack chroma. You cannot have an intense or subdued black or white; you get gray. To be the chromatic dragon family, it should be red, green, blue, yellow, orange and purple dragons. Black and white are on their own. These are "the value dragons" or the "tint and shade dragons" if they have minor accents of color. If they were just called "the evil dragons", which sounds lame, I wouldn't have a problem. But once you label them "chromatic" and include black and white, the whole system gets out of whack. I FEEL LIKE I'M GONNA EXPLODE, MAN!!!
Damn, art-school hippies! "Value" and "tint and shade" crap! Go kiss a manatee, you pot-smoking hippie!
FH (just joking, Picasso)
I made a grey dragon back in the day to "complete the spectrum". For some bizarre reason, it never occurred to me to make brown or yellow dragons, but hey, I was 14...
Dragon did a yellow dragon back in the early to mid 80s -- maybe a brown dragon, too, for all I know.
I just can't drum up any fear of a yellow monster :/
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Damn, art-school hippies! "Value" and "tint and shade" crap! Go kiss a manatee, you pot-smoking hippie!FH (just joking, Picasso)
Oh, heavy! Bad karma, man!
Manatee's are like, Nature's original Buddhas!Quit being such a square, and like hassling everybody with your dingy aura!
You need to by a crystal and incense.
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Damn, art-school hippies! "Value" and "tint and shade" crap! Go kiss a manatee, you pot-smoking hippie!FH (just joking, Picasso)
Oh, heavy! Bad karma, man!
Manatee's are like, Nature's original Buddhas!
Quit being such a square, and like hassling everybody with your dingy aura!
You need to by a crystal and incense.
I had some bad karma once, but some Pepto helped out a lot.
I made a grey dragon back in the day to "complete the spectrum". For some bizarre reason, it never occurred to me to make brown or yellow dragons, but hey, I was 14...The old 2nd edition draconomicon had rules for making mixed species dragons. So you could make purple dragons, orange dragons, pink dragons, green dragons (half yellow/blue), and gray dragons.
So, in 3.5 do you apply the half dragon template to a true dragon if different species mate?
Well, I was going to make a joke about that, saying that you could only apply the template to (the list in the MM + "avacadoes" for no apparent reason), but there is no list of creature types applicable in the MM. The only stipulation is that the base creature must be alive and corporeal. Given that, you could indeed have a half-red dragon gold dragon.
WTF?! There's my rant for the day! How the hell does that make any sense?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Well, I was going to make a joke about that, saying that you could only apply the template to (the list in the MM + "avacadoes" for no apparent reason), but there is no list of creature types applicable in the MM. The only stipulation is that the base creature must be alive and corporeal. Given that, you could indeed have a half-red dragon gold dragon.WTF?! There's my rant for the day! How the hell does that make any sense?
Opposites attract?
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WTF?! There's my rant for the day! How the hell does that make any sense?
It doesn't. (I was half joking about it.) No matter what, you always end up with a creature that is more powerful than one, if not both parents.
Maybe there's something to that -- aren't mutts stronger, healthier, smarter, and always leading the pack?
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Manatee's are like, Nature's original Buddhas!
I thought they were tropical walruses.
...and to qualify for a rant, the Naples Zoo has a "Panther Glade" but there are no panthers. There are cougars, which to their credit are cousins of panthers, but what the heck?
Naah, I'm from Fla. They call it the Florida Panther. They are cougar-looking; I think they're a wee bit smaller. Like the deer in Florida. They look like eohippus or something. Little toy deer.
This is nitpicky. But black and white dragons do not fall into the chromatic category. Black and white are not colors; they lack chroma. You cannot have an intense or subdued black or white; you get gray. To be the chromatic dragon family, it should be red, green, blue, yellow, orange and purple dragons. Black and white are on their own. These are "the value dragons" or the "tint and shade dragons" if they have minor accents of color. If they were just called "the evil dragons", which sounds lame, I wouldn't have a problem. But once you label them "chromatic" and include black and white, the whole system gets out of whack. I FEEL LIKE I'M GONNA EXPLODE, MAN!!!Damn, art-school hippies! "Value" and "tint and shade" crap! Go kiss a manatee, you pot-smoking hippie!
FH (just joking, Picasso)
Got me mad! I almost liked it! I'd cut off my ear about it, but I've already kind of exhausted my supply. And the toes aren't getting the same reception.
And have you even *looked* at an art school since 1973? We're cocaine-snorting hipster ironic pseudo-nihilists now, man. With tight girl's jeans, stupid tattoos and mirror shade sunglasses. Not to mention our universally shaggy hair and thick grandma glasses. Skinny thighs and elbows all askew, looking as if they could snap at any moment.
But hey, it was totally lame of me to bring up something as "antiquated" as the color wheel. Such a thing totally smacks of "skill" which, as Marcel DuChamp told us, is totally, like, binding and prevents the true "flowering" of the artistic self. Remember: the Renaissance masters were all misogynists that raped women with their eyes. Therefore, we should completely dismiss them.
Well, I was going to make a joke about that, saying that you could only apply the template to (the list in the MM + "avacadoes" for no apparent reason), but there is no list of creature types applicable in the MM. The only stipulation is that the base creature must be alive and corporeal. Given that, you could indeed have a half-red dragon gold dragon.
Not only that, but you can have a Half Dragon Gelatinous Cube, a Half Dragon Treant, a Half Dragon Warforged (the Warforged being, after all, living constructs)... a Half Dragon Awakened Avocado wouldn't surprise me in the least.
(the Warforged being, after all, living constructs)
WHAT THE $%^#ING &^%% MAN! living and construct aren't supposed to go together! If you're a Construct you were built. If you're alive you were born! (or divided or were fertilized at the bare minimum)
Why don't we try some half living undead?
How about an ooze with a skeletal system?
Or an athiest cleric?
(the Warforged being, after all, living constructs)WHAT THE $%^#ING &^%% MAN! living and construct aren't supposed to go together! If you're a Construct you were built. If you're alive you were born! (or divided or were fertilized at the bare minimum)
Why don't we try some half living undead?
How about an ooze with a skeletal system?
Or an athiest cleric?
Warforged - period - stupid lame things that are a blight on the game - unsuitable even as NPC or Monsters (and I can go for almost anything as an NPC or monster if I wouldn't noramlly like it or all it as a PC)
I like the warforged. You want to start something?
Sure - lets step outside and I'll explain to you why your "Warforged" (even the name is lame) are ill conceived, unbalanced, pointless, vile, crap.
You want to run a goofy - oh I'm a robot, made of magic wood, and some metal, but I have a soul - fine, come up with a backstory that supports some drunken druid mage wittling one out of a mystic log riddled was +5 nails - I can see that, I have control my vomit reflex but I can see it - but NOOOO thats not what you want - you want a whole frikkin RACE of these things, in different flavors no less, wandering around, polluting your whole game world with their absurd presense. Well buddy thats just not right.
Lets see the clever retort - I dares ya, I double dares ya
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I like the warforged. You want to start something?Sure - lets step outside and I'll explain to you why your "Warforged" (even the name is lame) are ill conceived, unbalanced, pointless, vile, crap.
You want to run a goofy - oh I'm a robot, made of magic wood, and some metal, but I have a soul - fine, come up with a backstory that supports some drunken druid mage wittling one out of a mystic log riddled was +5 nails - I can see that, I have control my vomit reflex but I can see it - but NOOOO thats not what you want - you want a whole frikkin RACE of these things, in different flavors no less, wandering around, polluting your whole game world with their absurd presense. Well buddy thats just not right.
Lets see the clever retort - I dares ya, I double dares ya
Amen Brother! I agree whole-heartedly with you. Hell, I even agree half-heartedly. Magic robots. That's what they are really.
I like the warforged. You want to start something?Sure - lets step outside and I'll explain to you why your "Warforged" (even the name is lame) are ill conceived, unbalanced, pointless, vile, crap.
You want to run a goofy - oh I'm a robot, made of magic wood, and some metal, but I have a soul - fine, come up with a backstory that supports some drunken druid mage wittling one out of a mystic log riddled was +5 nails - I can see that, I have control my vomit reflex but I can see it - but NOOOO thats not what you want - you want a whole frikkin RACE of these things, in different flavors no less, wandering around, polluting your whole game world with their absurd presense. Well buddy thats just not right.
Lets see the clever retort - I dares ya, I double dares ya
Yes! Now this is a rant! Sock it to him, Aubrey! I don't like warforged either, but I want to see blood. :) Then Kyr can come back with a longsword in his off-hand and use a polearm defensively in one hand with no penalty on attack rolls! What a fight.
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Amen Brother! I agree whole-heartedly with you. Hell, I even agree half-heartedly. Magic robots. That's what they are really.Oh, you're just bitter that you can't make zombies out of them.
With all the undead templates they have in the game today, constructs are about the only thing that can't become undead. I'm telling you, it just ain't natural.
Speaking of undead though, can a warforged become a ghost? After all, if its alive, then it has a soul, which could, in theory, continue on after death (or dismantling in this case). Does that make sense?
Speaking of undead though, can a warforged become a ghost? After all, if its alive, then it has a soul, which could, in theory, continue on after death (or dismantling in this case). Does that make sense?
AHHHHRRRRGGGG!
Yeah why not how about a swashbuckler warforged.
YEAH! ROBOT PIRATE GHOSTS! That's freakin awesome!
That is such a blindly retarded idea I have no doubt in my mind that the warforged can pull it off. How do you make such a rediculous concept frightening?
Shaggy: Sorry, but like, I'm just not buying it man.
Scooby: Rah, rats rust rucking rupid.
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Speaking of undead though, can a warforged become a ghost? After all, if its alive, then it has a soul, which could, in theory, continue on after death (or dismantling in this case). Does that make sense?AHHHHRRRRGGGG!
Yeah why not how about a swashbuckler warforged.
YEAH! ROBOT PIRATE GHOSTS! That's freakin awesome!
That is such a blindly retarded idea I have no doubt in my mind that the warforged can pull it off. How do you make such a rediculous concept frightening?
Shaggy: Sorry, but like, I'm just not buying it man.
Scooby: Rah, rats rust rucking rupid.
I agree, it is a stupid idea. But I was curious. One of the things about living creatures is that they can become undead. So if they want to say that warforged are alive, then they should be subjected to some of the same potential problems that other PC races must face, like the risk of becoming undead.
Amen to that. Warforged suck. Someone should tell the genius who designed them that the term 'living construct' is an oxymoron. As for them turning into ghosts I think it would be possible yet entirley retarded. No offense anyone.
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Amen to that. Warforged suck. Someone should tell the genius who designed them that the term 'living construct' is an oxymoron. As for them turning into ghosts I think it would be possible yet entirley retarded. No offense anyone.
Booyah! Another person for the "Warforged Suck" Club. Maybe we can have T-shirts made.
Oh yeah....GO COLTS!
Speaking of undead though, can a warforged become a ghost? After all, if its alive, then it has a soul, which could, in theory, continue on after death (or dismantling in this case). Does that make sense?AHHHHRRRRGGGG!
Yeah why not how about a swashbuckler warforged.
YEAH! ROBOT PIRATE GHOSTS! That's freakin awesome!
That is such a blindly retarded idea I have no doubt in my mind that the warforged can pull it off. How do you make such a rediculous concept frightening?
Shaggy: Sorry, but like, I'm just not buying it man.
Scooby: Rah, rats rust rucking rupid.
*snorting laughter*
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Amen to that. Warforged suck. Someone should tell the genius who designed them that the term 'living construct' is an oxymoron. As for them turning into ghosts I think it would be possible yet entirley retarded. No offense anyone.Booyah! Another person for the "Warforged Suck" Club. Maybe we can have T-shirts made.
Oh yeah....GO COLTS!
Can I get a T-shirt? Hells, yeah! Can mine say, "Warforged Suck--A Lot!"?
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Yeah, I hate warforged, they’re stupid and dumb, and don’t fit the genre, and are unoriginal, they’re game breaking, they’ve been done to death, and are really weak for constructs.
I mean they’re basically just robots, and robots don’t belong in fantasy, they belong in science fiction, like Star Wars. Now golems, I like golems, THEY belong in fantasy, especially flash golems, like in Frankenstein, now THAT is fantasy, not science fiction.
I do like Inevitables though, now THEY make sense. Intelligent, free willed constructs as they were meant to be! You wouldn’t get anyone trying to apply the ghost template to them. And Modrons, those little guys are cool, I’m not sure if they’re constructs or outsiders or what, but they run on clockwork and they’re NOT living constructs, which is important (type and sub type is really important guys).
I like Maugs, those are cool. They’re these intelligent, free willed constructs which were created to fight a war, but now roam the planes, hiring themselves out as mercenaries and other stuff like that. They’re cool as monsters, but probably not many people would want to play them as characters, which is lucky, ‘cos they’ve got racial hit dice and high level adjustments. Hopefully no one ever comes up with a +0 EL version of them…
Half Golems. Those are cool. No messing about with this living construct sub type, they just go straight to Construct (or do they stay as their original type? I’m not sure, but whichever one it is it makes sense). Half living creature, half construct, now THAT’S the way I wanna go.
I’ll tell you a PHB race that really makes sense to me is half-orcs. The fact that these guys are common enough to form an entire race (and a common one at that) I think is really cool, it highlights the generally understated interactions between orcs and humans (much more common than you might think) and also the tolerance of both species, that they would allow all these cross-breeds to grow and prosper. Sure, they might suffer from a little prejudice, but not much more than dwarves or elves or whatever (and what reasonable human wouldn’t love another intelligent race who looks a bit like them, but not quite, and is potentially competing with them for land, resources etc?). Warforged on the other hand, it implies in the Eberron stuff that they tend to make people uncomfortable and are often the victim of racism etc. Now that would make for some really uncomfortable roleplaying situations.
I think one race that has a great name is Halfling. They’re like half the height of humans, so they’re called halflings, it makes perfect sense! Even they liked the name so much they use it themselves.
Lizardfolk. That’s a good name. They’re like lizards and people (or folk) mixed together, so you know what you’re getting with a name like that. Same with catfolk and yakfolk and various other folk.
Half Dragons. Half dragons have had some bad press, but I love ‘em. I mean, if I was playing a half dragon I’d probably play like a half dragon ogre, because they would have wings, whereas a half dragon human wouldn’t (makes sense when you think about it). And man, those cheeky dragons, they’ll mate with anything won’t they? I mean they sort of have this reputation as a mysterious, fearsome, noble creature, and then they turn that all on its head by mating with horses and umber hulks and stuff like that. Half Dragon carrion crawlers, I think we need more of those.
I like Half Fiends – now they have wings. Man, they like their wings so much they grow them even if neither of the parent creatures have them. Now that’s a race that makes sense. The fiendish blood seems to dilute pretty quickly though, if I understand things correctly if you mate a half fiend with a human you get a tiefling. Wings, gone, scaly skin, gone, spell like abilities (mostly), gone. Now that would make a really cool three generation portrait, grandpa is a big, white skinned lizard insect looking thing with a spear, mum is a black skinned, scaled, bat winged humanoid, and son is pretty much human looking with tiny horns and hooves.
Yep, there’s a lot of really cool, practical, logical and fun races out there.
But not Warforged. They suck.
On a whole new topic of hatred: Paladins. I hate em'. I don't want goody two shoes running around telling me (I usually play a halfling rogue when I'm not DMing) what to do. No thank you I don't want to know why what I'm doing is evil. You don't like someone who steals for a living and stabs people in the back? Tough. Do I want goody two shoes to sign the party up to save a village at no cost just because its the 'right thing to do'? No. I'm in it for profit and adventure, not being a hero.
I also hate it when someone mispells rogue as rouge. Another thing I hate is when people forget to put conjunctions in their posts. That drives me crazy. I'm not that particular about grammar but I mean, connecting words are a basic part of any language.
I have an almost allergic reaction to perky commercials that pretty much say "if you buy our product you will be happy and it will make you're life so much better".
People who decorate for christmas before thanksgiving, stores that start to sell those crappy inflatable snowmen and other christmasy crap and start to play christmas carols over and over again in November make me wanna hurl.
I could go on like this forever (and probably will) but I need my sleep so I will stop for now. Ranting is fun. Whoever started this thread (Saern I belive) I thank thee for a way to vent that doesn't involve killing someone.
Yes! Now this is a rant! Sock it to him, Aubrey! I don't like warforged either, but I want to see blood. :) Then Kyr can come back with a longsword in his off-hand and use a polearm defensively in one hand with no penalty on attack rolls! What a fight.
Thank you Saern - It is was those OTHER people that wanted to use a frikkin pole arm in one hand (in one hand GRRRR) and a longsword in thhe other WHILE fighting defensively - with no penalties to the sword attack - ME I would laugh and use a foil - not even real rapier - just a foil - and jack those people up - I mean really abuse and humiliate them - ever been wacked with a foil - its like getting snapped with a car antenna - but worse.
Oh and back to stupid frikkin races - animal heads - all flavors of animal heads - AS RACES - as experiments gone wrong or even gone right - as celestials/infernals, as fey, as the result of a curse your human/elf/dwarf whatever has an animal head (they never get played as anything other than humans with animal heads anyway) no culture, no relationships with other races, nothing that makes any $%$%^$%^^$% sense, add to that retarded half races - half dragons especially WTF - what did that romance look like - you want some twisted PC with a breathweapon (starts to shudder uncontrollably) FINE COME UP WITH A DECENT FLIPPIN BACKSTORY - But a race????!!!! PLEASE.
Kyr - begins babbly and hits submit - as caregiver turns on soothing Japanese koto music
A lot of people seem to not understand what Lawful Good really means.
Lawful Evil characters lie, cheat, and ambush.
Chaotic Good characters lie, cheat, and ambush.
So why is it that when people see Lawful and Good together, they automatically assume that the use of fabrication, ingenuity, poison (!), and initiative is right out?
Re: Poison. Let's take baby steps here. First, look in the entry for poison in the back of the DMG. Does anything there expressly say "using poison is an evil act"? No.
Now, look in the Monster Manual. Many vermin possess natural attacks which inflict poison. Okay, sure, they don't have Intelligence scores, so I can see that argument...
Finally, look at the Couatl. Z0MG! An intelligent, Lawful Good outsider with a poison attack!
Thank You.
TK (Paladins rule! Though they should be a PrC...)
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Sure - lets step outside and I'll explain to you why your "Warforged" (even the name is lame) are ill conceived, unbalanced, pointless, vile, crap.
You want to run a goofy - oh I'm a robot, made of magic wood, and some metal, but I have a soul - fine, come up with a backstory that supports some drunken druid mage wittling one out of a mystic log riddled was +5 nails - I can see that, I have control my vomit reflex but I can see it - but NOOOO thats not what you want - you want a whole frikkin RACE of these things, in different flavors no less, wandering around, polluting your whole game world with their absurd presense. Well buddy thats just not right.
Lets see the clever retort - I dares ya, I double dares ya
Kyr, meet the Lord of Blades. Lord of Blades, Kyr. You two have a little chat about how rubbish the warforged are, and I'll be back later with a bucket of water and a mop.
More seriously, I really don't mind the warforged. They add a steampunk-y element which is a big influence on Eberron (Sharn in particular). And they offer quite interesting roleplaying possibilities - completely abnormal origins as manufactured entities, different mindsets, developmental traits, experiences. C'mon, can't you rise to the challenge?
And this "The belong in science fiction" stuff seems a bit wrong to me. Humanoid robots? Not really "science" fiction, since most real robots seem to be on car assembly lines. The best known fictional humanoid robot is surely C3PO, and Star Wars is far from being a real science fiction movie anyway (can anyone name any actual science in there?). The trappings of SF don't actually make something SF, and I don't have a problem with magic robots (which is, of course, what they are).
To all the haters, I say "Free your minds".
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Re: Poison. Let's take baby steps here. First, look in the entry for poison in the back of the DMG. Does anything there expressly say "using poison is an evil act"? No.
I think most of us don't determine what is good or bad by reference to what is or isn't in a rulebook. the issue is far more nuanced than that. If you poison someone, you are deliberately murdering them by stealth. is that actually good? What about justice?
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Sorry - to complete my post (the boss walked past as I was doing the last one).
Good and Evil in a basic D&D world are not points of view or matters of opinion or cultural constructs. They are almost physical entities, certainly objectively definable, because planes exist which personify and exemplify these traits. So you can't really say "What I think is Good is good - so I think it is good to poison bad people." What a planetar or angel thinks is Good is good - and he or she is objectively correct.
Can I see a paladin poisoning people? No, I see a paladin challenging the miscreant to changing his ways, offering him a chance at redemption, and then (if refused) attempting to capture him or (if necessary) killing him if he is sufficiently deserving. Premeditated murder of the poisoning kind (which is what is suggested) goes against that. It is "summary justice" without the chance to redeem, is cowardly and dishonourable. It doesn't give the villain a chance to explain himself, and a paladin who reckons that he is always right and can kill as he sees fit without further reference is surely on the path to corruption. I can't see a paladin doing that under ordinary circumstances if he is true to his vows and alignment.
However.....
If the danger was sufficiently great (say a powerful, evil tyrant surrounded by bodyguards who likes sacrificing innocents to his dark gods) where this approach would be suicidal, and the pay-off in terms of the removal of said tyrant is great, then I could see a paladin using this approach as a last resort. No one said that LG = Lawful Suicidal. But it would be very much the exception to such a rule, and I would expect it to still cause moral qualms.
As I said above, there isn't a Lawful Good manual out there. The suggestion that LG is as LG does seems pretty dull - where is the moral anguish and roleplaying in that?
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Aubrey brings up some really good points. I can think, however, of maybe one other very specific instance where a paladin could use poison without being evil. Let's say that the paladin tried to get Evil Person (EP) to surrender. EP refuses, so they start combat. Now what if the paladin were determined to apprehend EP with a minimum of bloodshed. I think it would be Ok for the paladin to use some kind of poison that causes weakness or loss of ability points (nothing fatal of course) that would make EP easier to beat. The paladin defeats EP, rendering him unconcious, then ties him up and turns him in. EP then can be put on trial and, if convicted, sentenced to jail to serve his time and gain a shot at redemption.
That is the point I guess I'm trying to make, that not all poisons are fatal and there might be some ways to use them that actually work out better for the greater good.
Oh yeah, GO COLTS!
Aubrey brings up some really good points. I can think, however, of maybe one other very specific instance where a paladin could use poison without being evil. Let's say that the paladin tried to get Evil Person (EP) to surrender. EP refuses, so they start combat. Now what if the paladin were determined to apprehend EP with a minimum of bloodshed. I think it would be Ok for the paladin to use some kind of poison that causes weakness or loss of ability points (nothing fatal of course) that would make EP easier to beat. The paladin defeats EP, rendering him unconcious, then ties him up and turns him in. EP then can be put on trial and, if convicted, sentenced to jail to serve his time and gain a shot at redemption.
That is the point I guess I'm trying to make, that not all poisons are fatal and there might be some ways to use them that actually work out better for the greater good.
Oh yeah, GO COLTS!
First a huzzah to those who post with a sense of humor.
Second - in the same theme - what about a sleep spell - or poison - or tanglefoot - or anything that incapacitates, then allowing someone else to follow-up with a kill.
How does the quote go, "All evil needs is for good men to do nothing"