Is it just me?


3.5/d20/OGL


Ok, I may be wrong about this, but it seems like most talk here and most games I've played in recently focus on combat and power-gaming rather than story and roleplaying. I always liked D&D as a system for interactive story-telling with a little combat thrown in for excitement, but it seems like it's become more of a video game with a little story thrown in for flavor. Now, I like a good first-person shooter on the pc as much as the next guy, but when I play D&D, I want something with a lot more depth. Am I way off here? What do you guys think?


Chazter -

I think that it depends on how the gamer(s) approach the game. D&D (and most RPGs) combine both a mineatures (Battletech for ex.) with Role Playing (MUDs for ex.) My personal opinion is that,in general, older gamers such as myself put more stock in the role playing aspects of the game instead of the mechanics. While the mechanics are important insofar as being common stat block references for all, this is not what drives the game for a role-player. In my experience, those who are most concerned with game mechanics tend to excel at the mineatures part of D&D - not the role playing part. The depth that you speak of finding can be found in the more literary descriptions of creatures, characters, feats, societies, and worlds that are either canned or home-created. Many stat blocks attempt to subject these kinds of ideas...some do so quite well and some fail miserably. Many of the metagame issues that can be attributed to D&D (and RPGs in general) are lost on novice gamers or those who choose to strictly play the mineatures portion of the game.

Hope this helps.

As ever,
ACE


I think I have the same desires. I like the combat just fine, but for me, I think the most fun is coming up with an interesting character story/concept and interacting with a detailed world that allows me to do so. Sometimes I like to focus on class aspects, but just as often, my statistical planning goes little beyond "I'm a wizard that focuses on conjuration and evocation, and plan on taking feats X, Y, and Z," or some such thing. I try to tie that into the story as well.

I get tired of seeing characters that, when asked about them, the only description is "half-orc fighter/barbarian/frenzied berserker." Sometimes they have a decent story behind them, but it rarely has any impact on the game or makes for interesting/unique (and thus, IMO, good) roleplaying encounters. More often, the story is bland and leaves the personality of this character empty and identical to almost everyone that player has had before.

I'm more interested in the local customs of the game world, the social climate, history and back story. What does this character look like? Not just blonde hair and an elf. What facial features? Large nose, small? Pointed, flat? Things like that. What clothing does he wear? What do his weapons look like, beyond longsword or whatever he's wielding? What embellishments does it have?

What does the dungeon door look like? What are the stones like? What's the smell in the air? I don't just want this information when its particularly bizarre or a blatant sign of what's about to happen, but all the time, so it adds to the verisimilitude of the world.

I like to have characters with a detailed background that are like no other, not in stats, but in attitude and outlook and feel and appearance. I like their stories to mesh with the world around me and make a difference and have a chance to grow and prosper. I like mature, deep-imersion role playing.

On this site, I've seen many stories of players who are the same, and some that are the polar opposite. I don't think it's accurate that all modern D&D is just a stylized video game with some story thrown in the back. The current rules set certainly allow such a thing to exist, and I can't really make a statement about older ones since I've never played anything other than 3.X. But, as long the entire group is having fun, whatever they are doing must be fine.

Personally, I do try to put detail into my settings and work with players to develop something really special, not just a jumble of numbers on paper. I've yet to succeed to the extent I would like, but that partially has to do with the diverse preferences and styles of my group. I'm still trying, though.


I don't think you can argue the impact gaming RPGs have had on roleplaying games. I can only speak for my game where some nights we play for hours and never get the dice out. The one advantage good has over evil is unity and friendships. You have to cultivate friendships. Now we do have combat quite a bit sometimes as in the current unarmed arena fighting. The best campaigns have good balance to highlight the barbarian as well as the bard.


You're not off-base, Chatzer...

But what you see on the boards here involves discussion of the finer points of the game mechanics as it relates to the game...

Good storytelling and character development don't involve intricate rules and doesn't require research and inquiry to resolve conflicts between various mechanisms.

As the DM, the control and development of your story is 100% you, man.

I'm among the 'plot and story over hack & slash' crowd, but if I get into a gray area with the rules, I'll post here to get a consensus... No need to do that with story lines.

M


...ahhh, the age-old question...


The simple fact is when people talk about D&D hack N slash jump straight to mind!!!!
Me im so friggen sick of mags putting dungen hacks in every dam adventure,there is so much more to dnd than people realise.

Dont get me wronge though, i love a good epic fight etc but those bloody random enconters are wearing me thin. A game im in at the moment we have to travel somwhere and its gonna take 20 days, there is a 10% chance every hour that we get into a fight!!!! Come on!!!!

Am i the only one that finds it hard roleplaying in a 150 room dungen for the 4th week in a row?!


Rambo wrote:
... A game im in at the moment we have to travel somwhere and its gonna take 20 days, there is a 10% chance every hour that we get into a fight!!!! Come on!!!!

Rambo, this post will make your day.

Actually, you're right that there's about a 10% chance every hour that there will be an encounter of some sort... But it doesn't have to be a fight.

In my game, I use the random encounter chances found in the DM Guide... Which is about 8% on a well travelled road, 6% if in patrolled areas (like within 3 hexes of a city) and 4% in total wilderness. I also drop the chances by 2% if it's dark and another 2% if there's precipitation (rain or snow).

Once I roll and determin that there's an encounter, I roll on a second, home-made, table to determin if the encounter involves Monsters (70% - this includes NPCs, other adventurers, an other encounter in progress, or even just a wild animal like a giraff), Place (20% - this includes ruins, log cabin, cave, water source, old capsite, footprints, a dead animal, and even a small random treasure), or Event (10% - this includes a sudden downpoor or hail, a strange sound, a shooting star, an earthquake or even a portal that opens to another plane).

Now have your DM roll encounters this way and you'll encounter something different every time, even if it always involves orcs. Have fun with those encounters!

Ultradan


Ultradan, that is a wonderful table thanks for sharing it. I am making notes right now and will be incorporating it.


What a great idea dude, down poor of rain etc no one thinks of that stuff anymore!!!!

I hope your players relise(sp) how lucky they are:)
And the adventure we're doing is out of a mag, it one of the Eberron starting adventures "Whisper of the vaps blade" i think? Its the second one anyway.


Oh this is a great idea! I like to liven up the world my players are in so they have more fun. Hearing the pinging of the rain off the helm and so forth. An uncomfortable night in the driving rain. A howl off in the distance...

Thanks!


I've had great successes over the years with story based games, more so then the BAG games (bash and grab). It seems the BAG style games became more prevalent with 3rd edition. I never had this issue with 2nd let alone 1st edition games. I attribute this to the video game genre, where there is a story but no one cares. Because the next day people are talking this item they grabbed and what level they are. Not how the princess praised thee and granted you safe travel in her homeland.

Here's what I've discovered works well for me.
1) Figure out your story. What levels do you want this to spread? What resources are available? (Dungeon issues are a nice tie in).
2) It's YOUR game, so it's YOUR world, regardless of whether it's homespun or Forgotten Realms, clearly things are subject to change.
3) Always keep it changing. Don't center it around one character. When Fighters start taking feats they're not accustomed to, you're doing well.
4) To take a video game stand on the process, create only the "bosses" they're likely to face. Everything else is just a supporting cast. With that in mind be accurate and odd at the same time. If the last thing they'd expect is a hill giant, toss in a hill giant, just to keep it interesting.
5) Take notes. Sometimes you just need to step off the path of the campaign (ie get someone up a level before moving on). This will allow the chance to go back on a side adventure, which might open doors to other things.
6) Introduce NPC's early. How often is up to you. But, keep them to a minimum. The less work the players have to do the better.
7) Fight like mad to get the story back on track.
8) Be patient, sometimes players just want to go mental and kill something. Give it to them.
9) Be consistent. Don't be so techinical in one area and so bland in another. Take time off to recoup and evaluate the storyline and campaign.

Nothing is more frustrating then being a useless character. Make sure that in designing your "story" not to let someone run a druid, if the story is never going to see a forest.


Savaun Blackhawk wrote:

Oh this is a great idea! I like to liven up the world my players are in so they have more fun. Hearing the pinging of the rain off the helm and so forth. An uncomfortable night in the driving rain. A howl off in the distance...

Thanks!

Back in the early 90's, I had a group encounter an earthquake...

Not fatal, but an eye-opener still...

When I was but a lad in the late 80's, I opened one of my first campaigns with an encounter that was essentially a magical blast on the scale of a nuclear detonation...that story petered out fairly quick, though.

M


This is a complicated issue for The Koga because in essence, he prefers crunch over fluff ALOT. (Fluff means carbs. XD)

However, along with crunch ussualy comes powergaming which he hates. D&D should be a set system of rules, numbers, dice-mechanics, and turn sequinces. But it should seekout to god-mode your character, that's what makes video games suck. There should always be a challenge and a sense of danger in D&D, regardless of your level, what spells you know, or what your equipment is..

The only thing worst then min/maxers is story-teller roleplayers who never pickup a dice, that's not an rpg, that's a storybook. At that a very random, badly thrown-together storybook..

And don't even get him started on LARPers..


Aawww! Thanks guys...

And to add to my earlier post, even if you roll orcs a few times in a row on the encounter table, it doesn't mean that there's actually orcs there: It could just be orc prints, or an abandoned orc camp, or an orc totem (warning others to go no further), or even just a rusty old orc double-axe just lying there. These could spark adventures all to themselves!!

Actually, only a small percent of encounters should be real fights. How else would traders and merchants get their stuff from village to village if red dragons and tarrasques lurked around every tree?

Ultradan


Ultradan wrote:

Aawww! Thanks guys...

And to add to my earlier post, even if you roll orcs a few times in a row on the encounter table, it doesn't mean that there's actually orcs there: It could just be orc prints, or an abandoned orc camp, or an orc totem (warning others to go no further), or even just a rusty old orc double-axe just lying there. These could spark adventures all to themselves!!

Actually, only a small percent of encounters should be real fights. How else would traders and merchants get their stuff from village to village if red dragons and tarrasques lurked around every tree?

Ultradan

Maybe the Tarrasque is just a merchant itself....

Timothy Tallfellow the town cobbler, elite tarrasque expert 4: CR 23; hp 872; Craft (cobbling) 19; Monster Manual 240.

GGG


Several answers:

#1: Because townsfolk are not dumb enough to pick fights with things they can't handle, infact, to send or do anything they ussualy go in groups of fear of never returning if they send to few out there in the dangerous outer-land. Also The Koga believes Dragons/Tarrasque should either be left as major quest plothooks, or be treated as mortal dieties.. Most sentinent monsters control the world from the shadows, or have thier own elaborate schemes we cannot fathom. And less then intelligent monsters like giant fungus and oozes makeup the prime threat level, and those can be avoided with knowledge of your sorroundings and possibly running.

#2: Magick. Protection circles that prevent ceartain types of creatures from entering the safety-zone.

Ofcourse The Koga is a fan of Zelda, a game where even half way through the game Moblins can still spear you to death if you're low on hearts, where as most D&D players are avid fans of Final Fantasy. Which is more or less Pokemon, but not as cute, or as friendly..


Wow finally a topic i can relate to. Nice XD. I'm totally in concurrance here, but as a general idea it seems to come down to age and teaching, older players like myself do tend to like the RPing aspect far more and do weigh in with the hammers on that ideal i know i do younger players are more of a kick in the door style just in iot for the ctance to cut stuff down with a great sword or spell. however the DM you play under seems to be just as big I'm both a DM and Player and yeah i do like to RP a lot but when i start teaching rookies how to play i try to be fair and let them decide how they wish to play, on the same note i alternate and have run many very popular storie and RP based campeigns with little combat at all. i don't abandon combat but find that most of my Players and myself Favor good Rp chances leading up to that big boos style rumble at the end. this is a hot topic on my forum site as well.
Http://trce.proboards25.com The Blue flame citadel baby.


Great Green God wrote:
Ultradan wrote:

Aawww! Thanks guys...

And to add to my earlier post, even if you roll orcs a few times in a row on the encounter table, it doesn't mean that there's actually orcs there: It could just be orc prints, or an abandoned orc camp, or an orc totem (warning others to go no further), or even just a rusty old orc double-axe just lying there. These could spark adventures all to themselves!!

Actually, only a small percent of encounters should be real fights. How else would traders and merchants get their stuff from village to village if red dragons and tarrasques lurked around every tree?

Ultradan

Maybe the Tarrasque is just a merchant itself....

Timothy Tallfellow the town cobbler, elite tarrasque expert 4: CR 23; hp 872; Craft (cobbling) 19; Monster Manual 240.

GGG

Probably doesn't have to hear all that haggling. I'll bet he gets the price he asks for every time.


Oh look, orc bandits! Yum! ~Timmy

Yes, I sense a role-playing opportunity here rather than a combat one.

GGG


I always wondered how people NPC got place to place without gettin attacked every dam hour!!!
It just never made sence, and you dont have to attack first, in facted i cant rember the last time we did start a fight.

I supose if you take a Paliden around with you your asking for trouble:)


Marc Chin wrote:

You're not off-base, Chatzer...

But what you see on the boards here involves discussion of the finer points of the game mechanics as it relates to the game...

Good storytelling and character development don't involve intricate rules and doesn't require research and inquiry to resolve conflicts between various mechanisms.

As the DM, the control and development of your story is 100% you, man.

I'm among the 'plot and story over hack & slash' crowd, but if I get into a gray area with the rules, I'll post here to get a consensus... No need to do that with story lines.

M

These are good points and the boards membership tends to reinforce the concept. If you post a rule question many responses are forthcoming quickly. Post a number of rules questions (presuming that your being thoughtful and not just wasting our time due to your own laziness to look anything up) and you'll probably get comments every time you post. Post an interesting idea and you'll probably find that there are diminishing returns. Probably most of us are interested in hearing about your campaign that has the PCs taking the roles of plane hoping Demons - we don't, however, want to read 9 threads about it.

There is a tendency for more debate to occure around rules and the mechanics of play on this forum...which suites me just fine.


Ultradan wrote:


In my game, I use the random encounter chances found in the DM Guide...

Would you consider posting your table?


As to the original point - D&D of any edition is what you and your players make of it.

For myself and my players I find that they really like roleplaying encounters after they have done a bunch of fights and they really like big fights after a bunch of roleplaying encounters.


Barfights are a great mix of role-playing and combat, as most involve name-calling, arguing, chest-thumping, intimidation and innovative tactics involving thrown mugs, leaping over tables, using chairs as shields, etc.

One campaign I played in our party had an arch-rival party of enemy adventurers....with whom we would bar-fight at every opportunity. Legendary fisticuffs--then we ran into them in the wilderness and we worked together to take out an evil titan.

After hauling the loot back into town and splitting up treasure, both parties sat around in a bar.....looked around and....the fight was back on!!


I have to roll play my freaking life! I have two players who work in cube farms in call centers, another two in retail, if there are not at least two good knock down drag out battles... it is too much like real life and the players are less satisfied. We teach others how to treat ourselves. And for better or worse I have taught my players to love the combats... Makes running mysteries really really hard. Every one has had some really good things to say though. I enjoy the various methods posted to keep adventures on track and modifying random encounters to non combat encounters. Good stuff!

Liberty's Edge Contributor

I'm do the same thing Ultradan does, which works out just fine. I've scared the crap out of player with rabbits, deer, and stuff like that. The mysterious rustling in the bushes always makes them crazy. Is it an a deer or a ninja spy? I use a lot of weather and natural disasters too. Flash floods, avalanches, hail... all good stuff for random encounters... an don't forget weird magical weather occurances. Stuff like black snow (which can form in areas where too much dirt or soot gets into the atmosphere) can really creep out players, especially if they cannot find an immediate logical explanation for it.


Kirwyn wrote:
I have to roll play my freaking life! I have two players who work in cube farms in call centers, another two in retail, if there are not at least two good knock down drag out battles... it is too much like real life and the players are less satisfied. We teach others how to treat ourselves. And for better or worse I have taught my players to love the combats... Makes running mysteries really really hard.

Well in this regards I try to keep any sizable roleplaying encounter focused on stuff that just ain't real life. The talking rock that has informationa about the adventure the PCs are on etc. I don't normally do major roleplaying encounters when the players buy equipment. My feeling is that if we contend that combat, in D&D, should involve the fantastic and magical and should eschew the mundane then it stands to reason that role playing encounters should follow the same formula.


I'm with Mr. MacDonald on this one. My group only meets once every 6+ weeks (pesky real world!), so any role-playing has to have rather immediate significance or the campaign grinds to an ugly halt (and the beer consumption goes way up!). Let the skill checks handle the mundane. With such a limited window of play, action takes precedence.


rugbyman wrote:
I'm with Mr. MacDonald on this one. My group only meets once every 6+ weeks (pesky real world!), so any role-playing has to have rather immediate significance or the campaign grinds to an ugly halt (and the beer consumption goes way up!). Let the skill checks handle the mundane. With such a limited window of play, action takes precedence.

Good point...I try to handle a lot of mundanity via e-mail between game sessions. That way the players hit the ground running when we can get together and game....although beer consumption is high either way.


If violence was really the most interesting thing in games and fiction, non-RPG games and fiction would be more violent. Other than the fact that it originated in wargaming, why might it be that RPGs are usually more violent than films, television, theatre and novels?


I think because combat involves the most die rolling and the most visualization.....plus players are driven by what they perceive as game rewards--experience points, treasure, etc. which they receive most quickly through combat.

Watching Conan walk through a town, punching spitting camels, getting drunk, wenching and spouting drunken barbarian philosophy is as entertaining to watch in a movie as it is to watch him smite the bad guys.

However, it's difficult to pull of in an RPG to make those town scenes every bit as entertaining as combat is. Combat is action at a mile a minute pace....even the best DM can't pull off that kind of pace for non-combat interaction because the game isn't set up for it. (Nor should it be, IMHO)

....plus we enjoy violence and victory....by we, I mean, humans in general. Men, especially, even though the four women I game with are every bit as bloodthirsty as the three guys.


I don't like point-by-point replies which tend to miss the wood for the trees, but I phrased the questions specifically, you answered specifically, and they can be discussed specifically. To clarify, I'm not trying to argue a position here, but to enquire as to whether there's something inherent in the RPG medium that leads to this emphasis.

farewell2kings wrote:
I think because combat involves the most die rolling
That's not an inherent fact of RPGs, but part of the wargaming heritage.
farewell2kings wrote:
and the most visualization.....
Action is visual, but no more true than in novels.
farewell2kings wrote:
plus players are driven by what they perceive as game rewards--experience points, treasure, etc. which they receive most quickly through combat.
That's obviously a convention of D&D and similar games.
farewell2kings wrote:

Watching Conan walk through a town, punching spitting camels, getting drunk, wenching and spouting drunken barbarian philosophy is as entertaining to watch in a movie as it is to watch him smite the bad guys.

However, it's difficult to pull of in an RPG to make those town scenes every bit as entertaining as combat is. Combat is action at a mile a minute pace....even the best DM can't pull off that kind of pace for non-combat interaction because the game isn't set up for it. (Nor should it be, IMHO)

Can you elaborate on why you feel the town scenes are harder to make entertaining?
farewell2kings wrote:
....plus we enjoy violence and victory....by we, I mean, humans in general. Men, especially, even though the four women I game with are every bit as bloodthirsty as the three guys.

That would suggest that violence is the thing we most deeply want to experience vicariously. But many people watch films and read books to vicariously experience the character, and those aren't as action-centric as RPGs are. And fighting sports aren't more popular to watch or take part in than non-violent physical activities.


Faraer wrote:
I'm not trying to argue a position here, but to enquire as to whether there's something inherent in the RPG medium that leads to this emphasis

Not sure if this will help but in many of my own experiances with the game the most rewarding encounters (RPing or combat) is where something totally unexpected happens, sometimes it's the DMthat is surprized, sometimes just the characters but the best is where both are humorously, happily, or horrifically surprized. These circumstances are also the most commonly shared as they are so unique.

In combat something going unexpectedly is met with a set of rules and regulations that often allow the abnormality to slide on seamlessly.
For instance a fighter gets his weapon sundered in combat and rips the arm off of a nearby fallen ghoul , which had it's claws coated in a lethal contact poison, and begins using it as an improvized weapon poisoning his opponents

But in an RP encounter it is harder to counter such events without slowing down the game.
Example. The PCs see a man chatting in a bar with the bartender. The npc is actually a trusted contact that has been giving the pc's directions on several quests, but he is cleverly disguised and none of the Pc's recognize him. The party Rogue "for no apparent reason" decideds to pickpocket the "stranger". He ends up stealing a small magical journal that has many diologues written back and forth between their "friend" taking orders from an unknown master. Recognizing their "friends" handwriting they get a bonus on their spot and a new check and realize who the mystery man really is. And know they know that he is a double agent and has been using and deceiving them from the start.

The above examples are both exciting developements at the table but the second is slow because the DM has to invent what will happen next as he goes along. "which may be hindered by the fact that he needs to be carefull what the PC's learn does not damage his adventure path."

I do not think that violence is becoming more important or celebrated, but the game has rules to ensure it runs smoothly versus exciting RP encounters are trickier to deal with effectively.

That and many excellent RP encounters are so heavily engrossed with the campaign and characters storylines that it would require a novel to share it properly with the people on this or any other site. They are "inside jokes" if you will.

So I do not think that Combat has become more important or celebrated, but rather it is smooth and easier to share with strangers

Hope that works for you

all just MHO


Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:
Ultradan wrote:


In my game, I use the random encounter chances found in the DM Guide...
Would you consider posting your table?

Sure... Here it is:

Chance of Encounter...... Normal..... Abnormal.. Precipitation
...................................(Day%/Night%)
Desolate / Wasteland...... 5%/1%...... 3%/Nil...... Nil
Frontier / Wilderness..... 8%/4%...... 4%/Nil...... 1%/Nil
Town within 3 hexes....... 10%/6%..... 5%/1%....... 2%/Nil
Road...................... 12%/8%..... 6%/2%....... 3%/Nil

d%........Encounter
01%-80%...Monster
..........01% - 75%...No Surprise.
..........76% - 85%...Players can surprise (Max. Distance).
..........86% - 95%...Monsters can surprise (Min. Distance).
..........96% - 99%...Encounter in progress (Max. Distance).
..............00%.....Reroll + third party joins the battle.
81%-95%...Place
..........01% - 02%...Campsite
......................01% - 90%...Abandoned.
......................91% - 00%...Occupied.
..........03% - 04%...Tracks (1d20 days old).
..........05% - 09%...Cadaver / Remains
......................01% - 90%...Without Treasure.
......................91% - 00%...With Treasure.
.............10%......Treasure.
......................01% - 90%...EL.: 1
......................91% - 99%...EL.: 1d4+1
.........................00%......EL.: 2d4+1
..........11% - 20%...Structure.
......................01% - 90%...Ruins.
......................91% - 00%...Intact.
..........21% - 41%...Cave.
......................01% - 90%...Abandoned.
......................91% - 00%...Occupied.
..........41% - 70%...Clearing.
..........71% - 00%...Water.
96%-00%...Event.
..........01% - 30%...Fire (Brush / Forest).
..........31% - 40%...Insect Swarm (Ants, Bees, Locusts).
..........41% - 55%...Old Trap (El.: 1d4).
..........56% - 60%...Celectial Event (Eclipse, Meteor).
..........61% - 65%...Weird Weather (Hail, Rainning Frogs).
..........66% - 70%...Weird Terrain (a blast radius, cemetary).
..........71% - 75%...Strange Sound (Howl, Scream).
..........76% - 80%...Strange Vision (Illusion, Ghost).
..........81% - 85%...Terrain Hazard (Quicksand, Rockslide).
..........86% - 90%...Disease in Area (FORT save or get ill).
..........91% - 93%...Players Scried (Crystal Ball, Stealth).
..........94% - 95%...Teleport (Teleported, Geased, Quested).
..........96% - 97%...Gateway Opens (Demon, Devil, Githyanki).
..........98% - 99%...Paradox (Player sees himself)
..............00%.....Time Warp (Something changes in timeline)
......................01% - 90%...+/- 1d20 Min., Hours or Days.
......................91% - 00%...+/- 1d20 Weeks, Months, Years.

Ultradan


Sweet, Thanks Ultradan
igi


I agree that many new gamers use more video gaming styles than they do role playing. But that just comes from inexperience. They will learn to love the RPing side as they discover it. I have only been gaming a little over five years and I still love a good hack'n'slash, but I have also developed quite a taste for a good storyline. I always create detailed character backgrounds and get with my DM (if it's not me at the time) to find a good place, in whatever campaign world he wishes to set it in, to set my character up. As both a DM and a player I love a good story both for the game and for the characters.

A bit from my Hoarde


farewell2kings wrote:


However, it's difficult to pull of in an RPG to make those town scenes every bit as entertaining as combat is. Combat is action at a mile a minute pace....even the best DM can't pull off that kind of pace for non-combat interaction because the game isn't set up for it. (Nor should it be, IMHO)

I don't think you can pull off combat that quick (mile a minute) pace in D&D. Now adays it looks and feels more like chess.

King me,
GGG


Faraer wrote:
If violence was really the most interesting thing in games and fiction, non-RPG games and fiction would be more violent. Other than the fact that it originated in wargaming, why might it be that RPGs are usually more violent than films, television, theatre and novels?

It is my experience that PC/console games and TV and cinema are all filled with violent games/shows/movies, way more so than any rpg I have played.

Any GTA game is series of randomly violent acts strung together with a thin plot/mission based storyline. It might be that not just RPG video games are influencing how a new generations of D&Ders are playing them but a whole raft of violent mass media. Or it could be that 3.x is a munchkin paradise focusing the game back to its Wargaming roots with minitures and complex combat rules and leaving traditional RPing behind. Discuss.


I think it is partly age related.
No offense but younger players want more hack & slash and comic book violence, as well as comic book style magic.

Older players tend to like more mystery, problem solving, and heavy roleplay.

Sweeping generalities - but true enough in my experience.

Nothing wrong with either provided the characters are happy. I think the real problem is when people confuse good roleplay with optimal feat selection, or when they think a demon lying about what its weaknesses are is the ultimate in Machiavellian set-ups. If the DM and the players don't know what they want and aren't honest about it that is when violence heavy or role-play heavy becomes and issue.

IMO Heavy roleplay is more fun - however heavy roleplay requires more prep time than combat oriented play for both the players and the DM, more details have to be kept track, of and GOOD heavy roleplay requires a lot more work, backstories, details, more fleshed out npcs, riddles, mysteries, politics and relationships need to be thought through. Its a lot harder.

Combat can basically use encounter tables - marry that with a modicum of judgement and you can have a decent dungeon crawl.


Marc Chin wrote:


I'm among the 'plot and story over hack & slash' crowd, but if I get into a gray area with the rules, I'll post here to get a consensus... No need to do that with story lines.

M

I agree fully, I am very much a story/plot first DM with my group. While they do also enjoy the hack N' slash moment from time to time, it's always the memorable or funny role playing moments that they rember year after year on gaming. I've never heard them reminesce about a spell they cast or a critical hit theyhad, but the do remember that certain homespun evil cleric that took a personal liking to making their lives difficult over the course of a couple years. They hated that guy so much they totally freaked every time he was involved in what they did...ahh good times.

Sydrill

Lantern Lodge

Figure I should add my two cents to the Jar.

Personally I always looked at D&D as a gathering, some watch Football and scarf down doritos with their freinds, I prefer to run campains and scarf doritos with my freinds.

The whole point of a game is not to tell a story or get the highest character, it's just about haveing fun while your doing it. Granted their can be times when players get difficult, but that's what the DM is for.

Example: I have one player that is UBER munchkin. The guy is contantly trying to fiugre out ways to bend rules and exploit them so I do things to counter it. Like going with traditional dice roll for stats as opposed to a more popular points system as this throws some wretched Chaos into his carefully crated plans.

Adapting is what's most important for a DM no matter what his play style.

Examples: I have one guy who always like to play the stereotypical fighter... who happened to be a halfelf. All he wanted to do was fight with his claymore and get drunk at bars and hit on barmaids. Fair enough, so I had a dwarven adventuring party challenge him to a drinking contest, using simple fortitue rolls for every drink they took. This led to some amusement as it's proably the only time in the history of D&D that a half-elf has ever drunken an entire party of dwarves under the table (his rolls were 19, 20, 20, 19, 18, 19, 18, and 20 I kid you not!!). I granted him a permenant +1 natural bonus to fight off the effects of alchahol cause honestly, that was too cool a feat NOT to have gotten some type a reward.

Another time the party attacked this Desert prince because they just didn't like the guy and he gave them a dirty look.(Well there was a little more history to it and it was somewhat ok 'cause they were all chaotic, except for the cleric who was of St. Cuthbert 0.o!?) and proceded to smite the prince's caravan respectivly. The prince got away and some party memebers were hurt but not to badly. When they later ran into an Orc mercenary they had befreinded later they told him waht happened though neglected to mention that they started the fight. The mercenary then proceded to reveal he was a prince of a nation of Orcs and then declared war in their name.
Their responce: OH SH!!!
Oh yeah, and St. Cuthbert cursed the cleric. Though in the players defence, it was his first time playing so he probably didn't relize that picking a god of Law meant acting lawful...
Still they kinda relearned Nutons third law of gaming:

"For every action their is an equal but oposite reaction... that tends to screw the players over at DM's discretion."

But it's all in good fun. ^_^

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