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Also, the d20 Modern game is not an OGL "game."
What do you mean by that? As I understand it, d20 Modern was released under the OGL as much D&D was, and WotC even provided an SRD (which is still available on their site here).
Also, the d20 Modern game is not an OGL "game."What do you mean by that? As I understand it, d20 Modern was released under the OGL as much D&D was, and WotC even provided an SRD (which is still available on their site here).
You're right. I'm not sure what or where I saw some criticism about d20 Modern and the OGL, but I (erroneously) thought the better part of the game was not accessible under the OGL. The only thing that might make me guess there could be problems would be the product identity, though I don't know what all lies in that that group.
My mistake.
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I got asked this in private, off board, but now I'm thinking about it, I'll offer it here as well:
Would folks like a list of the game-rule changes that my Star Wars Saga group and I have enacted in our game? They focus on playability and closing a few resource-hoarding loopholes (such as Force Points), for the most part. If so, I can make them all pretty and provide them, if there's enough interest.
I got asked this in private, off board, but now I'm thinking about it, I'll offer it here as well:
Would folks like a list of the game-rule changes that my Star Wars Saga group and I have enacted in our game? They focus on playability and closing a few resource-hoarding loopholes (such as Force Points), for the most part. If so, I can make them all pretty and provide them, if there's enough interest.
I'm interested.
I got asked this in private, off board, but now I'm thinking about it, I'll offer it here as well:
Would folks like a list of the game-rule changes that my Star Wars Saga group and I have enacted in our game? They focus on playability and closing a few resource-hoarding loopholes (such as Force Points), for the most part. If so, I can make them all pretty and provide them, if there's enough interest.
I'd be up for seeing the adjustments you made. I didn't end up playing all that much so didn't run into too many issues with my players gaming the system, I do enjoy seeing how a system is modified.
I got asked this in private, off board, but now I'm thinking about it, I'll offer it here as well:
Would folks like a list of the game-rule changes that my Star Wars Saga group and I have enacted in our game? They focus on playability and closing a few resource-hoarding loopholes (such as Force Points), for the most part. If so, I can make them all pretty and provide them, if there's enough interest.
I would too!
Well, then, gimme a bit, and I'll throw it all into InDesign, make it all nice and pretty, and put it up on my personal site.
May take a bit. SUPER busy at work lately.
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Hey folks!
Midniiiiiight... at the Oasiiiiis....
I give you this handy dandy PDF file with the changes listed, and a single-page character sheet, to boot!
I decided to hack this out tonight, as sort of a way of celebrating and getting over a bit of melancholy (all at once!).
It was twelve years ago, January 31 2001, that I put the finishing edits on a 65 thousand word 7-part adventure supplement for a particular anime mecha rpg and sent it off to submission land. I'm sad to say that the book's never seen the light of day (although I was paid, and paid well, for it), even though my playtesters and reviewers loved what they say of it. But "Life Happens," they say, and events conspired against it being published. Perhaps one day. I'd really like to see it in some form, you know?
So, rather than get all melancholy and down about it, I threw this together, with a few extra things beyond what I had planned. I stayed up late for you when I should have been in bed. I hope that you enjoy the contribution to your Star Wars games that this may make.
Lemme know what you think, eh? :)
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I'm damn sorry to hear that, jemstone. The world needs more mecha publications.
Hey folks!
Midniiiiiight... at the Oasiiiiis....
I give you this handy dandy PDF file with the changes listed, and a single-page character sheet, to boot!
I decided to hack this out tonight, as sort of a way of celebrating and getting over a bit of melancholy (all at once!).
It was twelve years ago, January 31 2001, that I put the finishing edits on a 65 thousand word 7-part adventure supplement for a particular anime mecha rpg and sent it off to submission land. I'm sad to say that the book's never seen the light of day (although I was paid, and paid well, for it), even though my playtesters and reviewers loved what they say of it. But "Life Happens," they say, and events conspired against it being published. Perhaps one day. I'd really like to see it in some form, you know?
So, rather than get all melancholy and down about it, I threw this together, with a few extra things beyond what I had planned. I stayed up late for you when I should have been in bed. I hope that you enjoy the contribution to your Star Wars games that this may make.
Lemme know what you think, eh? :)
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I'm damn sorry to hear that, jemstone. The world needs more mecha publications.
I am, too, honestly. But, you know... it's been 12 years. At this point, I'd happily (and for free!) revise the thing for them and fix a few fiddly bits that never sat well with me. But if it's not to be it's not to be. I did it, I know I did it, and I'm proud of it.
I'm especially proud of the fact that you could sync several of the episodes to albums like Dark Side Of The Moon and In The Court Of The Crimson King. I think I referred to it as "Prog-Rock overtures with a Jazz back-beat" more than once. ;)
But enough suspense! How's that PDF look to your critically valued eye, sir?
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But enough suspense! How's that PDF look to your critically valued eye, sir?
Jem, this is a thing of beauty. The ship combat is everything I was running it as, and it the Jedi matters seem entirely appropriate. Really, the only thing I was left wanting was for you to say, "By Grabthar's Hammer, by the sons of Warvan, you shall be avenged."
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Jem, this is a thing of beauty. The ship combat is everything I was running it as, and it the Jedi matters seem entirely appropriate. Really, the only thing I was left wanting was for you to say, "By Grabthar's Hammer, by the sons of Warvan, you shall be avenged."But enough suspense! How's that PDF look to your critically valued eye, sir?
That's in the Epic-Level supplement. :)
I was trying to hit the right degree of "these are the house rules with some explanation" without getting too off into expository essays on gaming theory and methodology. I actually cut out all the stuff pertinent to the time period I'm running my game in, as well as the list of "what's considered canon in my game and what isn't."
Glad you like it, Fig! Thanks!
To answer the original question, it's got something to do with the fact that back in the day I both ran and played in dozens of Star Wars West End games and had tremendous fun.
On the several occasions we tried D20 Star Wars, we had a miserable time. The first time out there was a TPK as the party was wiped out at Level 1 in battle with a couple of Stormtroopers. Which may be true to logic and sense, but not really to the feel of Star Wars. Plus Jedi in D20 felt way overpowered compared to the WEG RPG, which felt much truer to the spirit of the movies.
ETA: I hate to be That Guy (which of course means I'm going to be That Guy), but a cannon is something you shoot people with or, in extreme comical circumstances, people out of. The term for a fictional universe is 'canon'.
And now I'm going to go kill myself for even bringing that up, thanks.
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On the several occasions we tried D20 Star Wars, we had a miserable time. The first time out there was a TPK as the party was wiped out at Level 1 in battle with a couple of Stormtroopers. Which may be true to logic and sense, but not really to the feel of Star Wars. Plus Jedi in D20 felt way overpowered compared to the WEG RPG, which felt much truer to the spirit of the movies.My problem with the WEG Star Wars involved a normally very good GM go overboard with the wild die rules. Every single time a wild die came up with a one something bad happened, whether it advanced the plot or not. To this day I won't play that game if he runs it. The guy is a great fantasy gamesmaster, but a terrible sci-fi one.
Come to think of it, I can't remember a ship-to-ship battle in a Star Trek game that didn't result in the ship losing one of the nacelles and spending the next several months in spacedock. But as I said, great at fantasy, less so as science-fiction....
But what adventures could you not have in space dock? The awesomeness of some huge shipyards out there in space with a million spaceships in for repair...and as you sneak around to snoop about the space dock, you find some very old alien vessel that isn't in any ship registry and has a thousand year old Sith in hyper-sleep.
I just don't enjoy playing in the setting, which makes it hard to use the system.
I agree, Tri: While I think the movies generally provide an enjoyable romp through the mind of George Lucas on a Friday evening, the system is stronger than trying to emulate the movies/books. That said, I enjoy some of the mythology in the SW universe.
ETA: I hate to be That Guy (which of course means I'm going to be That Guy), but a cannon is something you shoot people with or, in extreme comical circumstances, people out of. The term for a fictional universe is 'canon'.
If you're at all referring to my mention of "What's canon in my game and what isn't," I think you'll find that I used the proper term.
Unless someone else used the wrong one and I missed it and am therefore unnecessarily paranoid? ;)
And, I've said before and I'll say again, Saga fixed so many of the glaring issues that were present in D20 SW. It really did.
But anyway, I've gotten some nice comments on the PDF I posted. Glad y'all are liking it. At least I think you are. :)
I just joined up a new Saga game (leaving Pathfinder behind in the process) and I'm very excited to play again. I've run a couple of Saga campaigns, and they were a blast! /pun
I've played a lot of Star Wars d20, Revised, and Saga, and hands down I prefer Saga best. D20 and Revised were "too D&D" for the setting, and had way too many clunky rules and numbers bogging the flow of the scenes down. I felt Saga massively streamlined the mechanics and allowed for a much better flow of the game.
Jedi have always been "better than average", but at the same time, shouldn't they be? Being gifted with the power of the Force, for me, is more special than simply being taught how to use heavy blaster rifles or pick locks. But, Jedi got no free rides in my games either. If the group faced an enemy Force-user, the Jedi in the party was typically their first target.
I would always populate encounters with plenty of other bad guys for the rest of the party to deal with, trying my best to avoid having a situation where the rest of the table have to sit and watch, while the one Jedi payer is having their epic lightsaber duel. There were always plenty of thugs, soldiers, droids, and npc's for the party to stay involved and kept busy.
The flip side of this, is that you have to keep non-lightsaber using bad guys important, too. It's belittling to have only the Jedi player get to fight the named-npc bad guys, while the party mops up mooks. Gotta switch it up. Depending on the era, you could have a mob of mook SIth warriors, led by some kind of gun-toting Sith warmaster or whatnot.
Wow, I'm rambling. Always a good sign of being excited for a game, I'd think. :)
@Josh: I agree with your analysis and thinking. I think you've outlined the 'right' way to provide challenges for a mixed group of Jedi and other character types.
There's an inherent difficulty in trying to create Star Wars with a 'leveled' game system. Jedi that match a low-level scoundrel would end up being Younglings. A true Padawan would be on the power level of someone much more advanced and a Knight would be even further along.
I did some work on Star Wars in GURPS and ended up with set-up where a basic Jedi would end up costing on the order of 300-400 points. For that many points you can build a very powerful scoundrel or other character type - he'd be a marksman, excellent fast-talker, sharp streetwise skills, have lots of contacts, etc.
A group of equal-point characters in that system would work out much better than a SAGA Jedi, Scoundrel, Diplomat, etc. who are all at 6th-level...but aren't really balanced against each other.
M
@Josh: I agree with your analysis and thinking. I think you've outlined the 'right' way to provide challenges for a mixed group of Jedi and other character types.
There's an inherent difficulty in trying to create Star Wars with a 'leveled' game system. Jedi that match a low-level scoundrel would end up being Younglings. A true Padawan would be on the power level of someone much more advanced and a Knight would be even further along.
I did some work on Star Wars in GURPS and ended up with set-up where a basic Jedi would end up costing on the order of 300-400 points. For that many points you can build a very powerful scoundrel or other character type - he'd be a marksman, excellent fast-talker, sharp streetwise skills, have lots of contacts, etc.
A group of equal-point characters in that system would work out much better than a SAGA Jedi, Scoundrel, Diplomat, etc. who are all at 6th-level...but aren't really balanced against each other.
M
Class Balance was never really an issue for my group. It takes a little more effort on the GM's part, but as long as the game feature a multitude of types of challenges, geared towards different PC's strengths and weaknesses, everyone just felt very involved. The main Jedi player in my group never seemed any more or less important than anyone else.
I can definitely see where you're coming from with a point-system like GURPS, but really, Saga suited us just fine. We play our SW games fast and loose, more focused on just getting our geek fix more than getting hardcore into intricacy and numerical completeness.
I definitely think Saga is an awesome system, BTW. Just wanted to be clear on that point. I've had a great time running it and I think my players have enjoyed it.
@The Jeff: You are correct...but a 1st-level Saga Jedi is more like Luke after some training with Yoda.
M
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*Jumps on the bandwagon*
I accidentally played a SW game at my first con. (I had seen the movies exactly once, so how was I supposed to know that "Flames of the Rebellion" was a reference to SW?) It was fun, but not so much that I sought out SW games afterwards. At the beginning of the session, the GM told the guy who leapt on the jedi pregen "FYI, your mind trick will work once and only once, so make it count." Near the end of the session, the GM not-so-subtely red-flagged the moment when the jedi was supposed to use his mind trick.
That's the kind of thing that lends a lot of credence to "Books and movies are better left as books and movies." This is why I've never played the Wheel of Time rpg, the Middle Earth rpg, or the Song of Ice and Fire rpg, despite enjoying those books/movies/shows ten times more than I do SW. I don't want to play a rpg that has a built-in Mary Sue race and/or class, even if the GM is willing to bend over backwards to balance things.
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I remember playing level 7 clone (soldier/elite trooper) in a group where everyone except me was a force user / jedi and I don't remember feeling week (okay, I specialised heavily on blaster rifles to the point where i rolled something like 5d12 with burst fire without penalties). I think I could take on any one of them and come on top in the end and I could also work explosives and do a lot of commando work and some piloting.
Jedi might be easier to make powerful, but in Saga it wasn't overwhelming.
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*Jumps on the bandwagon*
I accidentally played a SW game at my first con. (I had seen the movies exactly once, so how was I supposed to know that "Flames of the Rebellion" was a reference to SW?) It was fun, but not so much that I sought out SW games afterwards. At the beginning of the session, the GM told the guy who leapt on the jedi pregen "FYI, your mind trick will work once and only once, so make it count." Near the end of the session, the GM not-so-subtely red-flagged the moment when the jedi was supposed to use his mind trick.
That's the kind of thing that lends a lot of credence to "Books and movies are better left as books and movies." This is why I've never played the Wheel of Time rpg, the Middle Earth rpg, or the Song of Ice and Fire rpg, despite enjoying those books/movies/shows ten times more than I do SW. I don't want to play a rpg that has a built-in Mary Sue race and/or class, even if the GM is willing to bend over backwards to balance things.
So you played one edition of a SW game, once, at a con, with a weird GM(Mind Trick only working once? wth?)and this has made up your mind about the game?
Some books and movies lend themselves to being better games than other books and movies. I'd much rather play a Middle Earth RPG than 2013's Taxes For Dummies. That's just too vague of a statement for me to get behind at all, especially considering just how much of the RPG hobby derived directly from fantasy story books.
As for Saga Edition, it doesn't take much of the GM bending over backwards to balance things at all. A GM just can't sit there and mindlessly pump out meaningless combat all the time, or the "Mary Sue" class, as you put it, will run the table.
Funny enough, I had a player who played a combat droid, that was an absolute monster. If anything, that combat droid was a much more effective combatant than any Jedi I've had at my table. Sure, a Jedi can deflect blaster bolts, but flamethrowers and shoulder-mounted missiles? Toast.
Just going from personal experience, coming up with interesting non-combat situations felt 10x easier in a game system like Saga, that isn't dependent on looting corpses for character progression. We could play many sessions where the party were doing things that didn't involve killing things and taking their stuff. But yet many dice were rolled, and everyone still had a lot of fun.
D&D/PF on the other hand, if you aren't in the process of killing something, or on your way to kill something, or talking to an npc about where to find something to kill, and/or taking their stuff, the game can fall apart fast. Unless your players are a theater troupe, getting their character development chops up in social encounters, it's pretty much kill/loot/travel/kill/loot/rest/repeat. I'm dramatically oversimplifying it, but really, this cycle of kill/loot/repeat lends itself much less to a good SW game than it does a fantasy RPG, from what I've played. YMMV.
Same goes for most RPG's really, but for me, telling a narrative that involved lots of non-combat encounters was a ton easier in Saga than it ever was in traditional fantasy RPG's. It's just a different style of game, period.
So you played one edition of a SW game, once, at a con, with a weird GM(Mind Trick only working once? wth?)and this has made up your mind about the game?
If it makes you feel any better, I give new songs and books even less of a chance to grab my attention. (A single listen-thru or chapter, respectively.)
But in any case, I didn't decide that I hate SW rpgs. Just that they're not my favorite, so I'm not going to go seeking out SW games with my limited game time.
So you played one edition of a SW game, once, at a con, with a weird GM(Mind Trick only working once? wth?)and this has made up your mind about the game?If it makes you feel any better, I give new songs and books even less of a chance to grab my attention. (A single listen-thru or chapter, respectively.)
But in any case, I didn't decide that I hate SW rpgs. Just that they're not my favorite, so I'm not going to go seeking out SW games with my limited game time.
I can relate to that. Heck, I'm a big SW geek, love the game, but only actually play when I'm in a "Star Wars mood." It's definitely not as routine as playing any other ongoing RPG's. Just seems once in a great while, the mood strikes, we run some adventures, and eventually tune back in to whatever else we were playing before.
@Kthulhu: You are correct. :) My Legacy-era game (two Jedi PCs) had a couple of Force ghosts and some Force zombies. It was fun and, surprisingly, didn't seem all that out of tune with the SW feel. There's some creepy stuff creeping around Sith planets.
M
@Kthulhu: You are correct. :) My Legacy-era game (two Jedi PCs) had a couple of Force ghosts and some Force zombies. It was fun and, surprisingly, didn't seem all that out of tune with the SW feel. There's some creepy stuff creeping around Sith planets.
M
Force zombies? Interesting....
I had a complete adventure written up for my Old Republic game that dealt with an Aliens (double-jawed, acid-blood, etc) crossover, but when I dropped the plot hint, the party avoided it completely. Darn shame, too.
@Kthulhu: You are correct. :) My Legacy-era game (two Jedi PCs) had a couple of Force ghosts and some Force zombies. It was fun and, surprisingly, didn't seem all that out of tune with the SW feel. There's some creepy stuff creeping around Sith planets.
M
LEGACY!!!
You will get a game experience based on the following overlaps:
1) What your GM rewards.
2) What your game system rewards (here's a hint: The more pages of character options devoted to it, the more the game system rewards it)
3) What your fellow players reward.
If you make this a Venn diagram...
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Here's a link to my opening intro for a Clone Wars era one shot:
I've put together 6 CL 3 characters, and an adventure to try out the system with some friends. I don't feel comfortable about posting them online (since I use images that I don't own), but if anyone wants a copy of No Moon (a 3rd Level adventure set during Season 5 of Clone Wars) just message me your e-mail address and I'll get to it when I can.
Because West End Games created the Star Wars Galaxy...
Seriously, Lucas gave them the power to do anything they wanted with it in the '80s, so they did just that. Lucas created 3 movies and let go after his divorce, which his x got the scripts and rights to what else he had, so he gave up.
West End created a massive universe, set the feel for the books written including the Thrawn trilogy.
And the real thing...
THE HEROES WERE HEROES.
D20 characters are weak.
Awesome, DM. It sounds like everyone had fun (I presume you did, too). Keep at the system, if you can: it offers reasonable mechanics to work with, and I don't recall it getting too bogged down in wealth/"magic items" as requirement to keep adventuring (other than the need for ships, if you opt for that route).
I would like to see the characters you made.
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Awesome, DM. It sounds like everyone had fun (I presume you did, too). Keep at the system, if you can: it offers reasonable mechanics to work with, and I don't recall it getting too bogged down in wealth/"magic items" as requirement to keep adventuring (other than the need for ships, if you opt for that route).
I would like to see the characters you made.
If you PM me your e-mail address I'll e-mail you the characters at the first opportunity, (if there's mistakes then forgive me. I'm new!)
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Some of you have asked about this (sorry for the Thread-necromancy, but it's suitable), so here are the house rules for my No-Jedi, Early-Empire Star Wars: Saga edition game:
Some changes have gone into this since it was written, such as how I decided that the ship should really be named the Sullustan Sundiver to keep with the "bird" theme for Hero Ships in the SWU, but this is basically what I gave my players. As you can see, I have a lot of story/plot call-outs, as well as options to encourage a racially diverse cast (in keeping with the spirit of the SWU).
I think Fig might like this, specifically, but I'm happy to share it with the rest of you.
It's very similar to the other document I posted earlier, but with notable changes, especially regarding player wealth and equipment.
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I really like the d20 Star Wars game however what discourages me is the fact that WotC has not released a new sourcebook in ages. The minis don't cut it for me.I don't think they have the license any more.
They dont. Its in FFG's hands now. No longer D20. They have this new dice pool mechanic. Its all right but a lot of folks hate the special dice gimmick. I didn't mind it. Thought it was something new and interesting. I am not a big SW fan so this didn't catch on with my group.
Why would anyone play d20 SW when WEG books are still available if you put some effort into finding them?
;-)
It's people like you what causes unrest.
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I'll be honest, I'm fairly new to roleplaying, I've only been playing for less than 5 yrs now. But every group I join and play with has had an amazing distaste for the new Star Wars d20 game. Is it something that I'm missing for are they just upset because they feel Wizards nerfed the Jedi classes that much? I'll be honest, I never got a chance to play in a d6 game of Star Wars, so am I missing something from not having played that? Let me know please!
It must now be about ten years ago that i played in a Starwars D20 game. The DM did a good job, we did have fun, but in a funny way, I felt like i was playing D&D. Perhaps it was the similarity between the D&D system and the Starwass d20 game. The GM was using a WEG D6 adventure and converting it. I remember he complained that he couldn't find any good d20 starwars adventures so he had to use this west end module.
I have played Starwars D6 West end games much more. My friends now have a Star wars D6 game that has been running for 14 years now. Before that I played some SW D6 West end games in the late 90s which I enjoyed. I guess I just prefer the D6 system because i have played it a bit more, and I have some good long term friends whom I enjoy playing with, and our Starwars Game of choice is D6.
I guess it is just a matter of preference and what you are used to playing.
In the WEG STAR WARS I think we used the 'wild die catastrophe' rule once or twice and then forgot about it. Rolling a 1 on a d20 and fumbling in D&D is one thing, but a 1 on a 6 and something going crazy is just stupid.
I think we may also have experimented with a double-roll system as well (if you roll a 1 you roll again and it's only a crazy catastrophe situation if you roll a 1 for a second time in a row).
