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Just read the Overload download and was interested to see Dragotha being involved. Also received my issue #126 in the post as well. I'm a little confused by this. I thought Dragotha was linked to White Plume Mountain and Keraptis? His heart is in White Plume Mountain (Return to White Plume Mountain page 42 actually has his heart as item 8) and Bruce R Cordell wrote an RPGA adventure in which he is still trapped in his lair which although for 2nd edition is still at the Wizards website http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20010817a
Anyone at Paizo care to rationalise this :)? I can handle Kyuss moving between Sulm, to the Rift Canyon (this doesn't fit too well now though and it would appear the Wormcrawl Fissure formed when he came back with Dragotha and after he had been freed from the monolith), then to Amedio and Elatalhui(?)/Spire of Long Shadows, then (back?) to the Rift Canyon as a monolith to Dragotha's Lair, which has moved from right next to White Plume Mountain and into the Wormcrawl Fissure, from which Dragotha's phlylactery was stolen by the druids.
My biggest problem is it would appear that up until now Keraptis enslaved Dragotha by stealing his heart and it can be inferred this act made Dragotha into the Undead Dragon. The Overload makes it appear Kyuss "restored" Dragotha by bringing him back as a dracolich in the Wormcrawl fissure after Tiamat killed him. Help required from Eric and James I guess.
Just read the Overload download and was interested to see Dragotha being involved. Also received my issue #126 in the post as well. I'm a little confused by this. I thought Dragotha was linked to White Plume Mountain and Keraptis? His heart is in White Plume Mountain (Return to White Plume Mountain page 42 actually has his heart as item 8) and Bruce R Cordell wrote an RPGA adventure in which he is still trapped in his lair which although for 2nd edition is still at the Wizards website http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20010817a
Anyone at Paizo care to rationalise this :)? I can handle Kyuss moving between Sulm, to the Rift Canyon (this doesn't fit too well now though and it would appear the Wormcrawl Fissure formed when he came back with Dragotha and after he had been freed from the monolith), then to Amedio and Elatalhui(?)/Spire of Long Shadows, then (back?) to the Rift Canyon as a monolith to Dragotha's Lair, which has moved from right next to White Plume Mountain and into the Wormcrawl Fissure, from which Dragotha's phlylactery was stolen by the druids.
My biggest problem is it would appear that up until now Keraptis enslaved Dragotha by stealing his heart and it can be inferred this act made Dragotha into the Undead Dragon. The Overload makes it appear Kyuss "restored" Dragotha by bringing him back as a dracolich in the Wormcrawl fissure after Tiamat killed him. Help required from Eric and James I guess.
Check out Dragon Issue #134 or #135 can't remeber which. It goes into Dragotha's origin a little more. It doesn't mention anything to do with White Plume Mountain just Dragotha's history with Timat and what it's goals are. Sorry I couldn't help more but I'm trapped at work away from all my bag of tricks.
Creative Director
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First of all... Dragotha's been around for a long time. He's certainly had plenty of time to work for other people (or to be enslaved by others). In any event, we'll be sure to explain Dragotha's links to Keraptis and White Plume Mountain as we get closer to the adventures that deal directly with him. Dragotha's certainly had more than one lair, and probably had more than one at the same time.
There's a certain amount of minor continuity revision going on, of course, but we'll do our best to make things fit together. It's a little tough because Dragotha's already got a fair amount of contradictory backstory; his/her gender changes multiple times, for example. Keep in mind that the campaign overview in Overload isn't exact. Things are certain to change, and Dragotha's deep character history may well be one of them. One thing that won't be changing is that Kyuss was the one who created him. It may turn out that Kyuss used Keraptis as a tool to effect Dragotha's transformation (since Kyuss was locked in his monolith and couldn't do anything physically about things)...
It'll all get worked out somehow; never fear!
I do hate to see him called a "dracolich", though. Way too Forgotten Realms. He's THE UNDEAD DRAGON, baby. :)
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Lord Vile: Thanks for that, I hadn't actually considered old Dragons. Doh! Typing in "Dragotha" in the Dragon Archive Compilation might prove informative :)
James & Erik: Thanks for teh prompt responses, I am sure you'll squash any continuity bugs and stop any inconsistencies :) Dragotha changing sex, eh? Sounds a bit like Hookface. Sorry couldn't resist :) It does suggest Tiamat is bisexual though :)
Yamo: True, but the way you say it makes it seem like Dragotha, International Dragon of Mystery. I wonder if Jaguar would ever build an E-type big enough for a dragon to drive. Then again there is always polymorph self :) Yeah baby, yeah.
Lord Vile: Thanks for that, I hadn't actually considered old Dragons. Doh! Typing in "Dragotha" in the Dragon Archive Compilation might prove informative :)
James & Erik: Thanks for teh prompt responses, I am sure you'll squash any continuity bugs and stop any inconsistencies :) Dragotha changing sex, eh? Sounds a bit like Hookface. Sorry couldn't resist :) It does suggest Tiamat is bisexual though :)
Yamo: True, but the way you say it makes it seem like Dragotha, International Dragon of Mystery. I wonder if Jaguar would ever build an E-type big enough for a dragon to drive. Then again there is always polymorph self :) Yeah baby, yeah.
Erik:
Why not just redo Dragotha's stats either in the next Dragon or in the next Dungeon issue? Add them in the appendix with a short revised blurb about his origins. I know the Overload helps to flesh him out a lot. But, this way everyone has the revised idea on him.
Ric
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Creative Director
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I do hate to see him called a "dracolich", though. Way too Forgotten Realms. He's THE UNDEAD DRAGON, baby. :)
Well... Dragotha's stats are yet to be finalized, but since he shows up in the installment I'm writing, I get to stat him up. Woo! :)
In any event, we're currently calling him a "dracolich" because that word works best to describe him. I'm pretty sure that when his stats do show up, he'll be presented as a unique undead monster. I might use the dracolich template as a starting point, but he's not going to be a Forgotten Realms Cult of the Dragon Boss.
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Help this degrading memory of mine, but didn't the old Erol Otus map in S2-White Plume Mountain label Dragotha a "dracolich"? This map was the first time I had seen the term. I didn't know what that implied back then, but it sure made White Plume Mountain look inviting in comparison! Twenty-two years later I am beside myself with anticipation to see/use an icon from my D&D formulative years in a real game. They say "dracolich", you say "The Undead Dragon", I say "I cannot wait!". Sometimes we have to look past the metagaming implications a word now has and remember the words are just nouns, adjectives, verbs, etc., and not some bloody stat block.
YEA! Finally a use for my Zombie White Dragon D&D mini! [:P]
Seriously, do you think we can work in a way to foreshadow Dragotha that somehow uses the ZWD? Maybe as a monster the party must fight in the Free City arena? Considering how iconic Dragotha is to Greyhawk, (one of the better known monsters) the party should be quaking in fear every time they hear his name, and the final battle needs to be worthy of someone of his stature.
Squid
and the final battle needs to be worthy of someone of his stature.
Squid
The real annoying for me is that I am the greyhawk fanatic and my regular players aside from one are FR raised and will have no concept of the import of destroying such a creature. All they will care about is what CR is it for xp and where's the loot?
sigh...
Eric, it was sheer marketing genius to include the undead dragon in the AP. Every veteran player that ever read through White Plume Mountain will want to a chance to destroy it in an official D&D adventure.
It's not that I hate dracoliches, per se, just that "dracolich" is like "orc" in that it's a whole distinct type of creature. Dragotha is such a unique individual in the Greyhawk setting (at least the canon one), that a collective "species" name for what he is would be unlikely to have been developed there.
If that makes sense.
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It does. It sounds like James is going to make him a really cool unique undead dragon, but probably with out any Austin Powers type behaviour.
I got so excited about this that even though I am running Shackled City, and they have only just entered the Kopru Ruins, I got the whole group committed to playing the AoW path straight after Shackled City. Which was nice.
This time they are all playing lawful, religious human males. The consensus is next time they want to play chaotic odd balls, or evil. Guess evil could work if they played orthodox Hextorian, Vecnan, and Erythnuulian worshippers hunting down the Ebon Triad.
Dragotha's Lair may come in useful, any chance of posting some more links to old RPGA/Greyhawk adventures?
The Erol Otus map does not reference the word "dracolich," according to my memory. I believe it says something like "Here lies Dragotha, the Undead Dragon" or somesuch.
--Erik
An arrow points northwest with the scrawl "Beyond to the lair of Dragotha, the Undead Dragon, where fabulous riches and hideous death await". There is a nice little pic of Dragotha too, though I can't make out his/her (its?) gender.
Hunter
(And beware Thingizzard's potions)
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I will definitely review "Return to White Plume Mountain" and make any appropriate tweaks, but the fact that Bruce botched something as basic as Dragotha's sex in the "Dragotha's Lair" adventure does not fill me with confidence.
--Erik
Who's to say there haven't been many dragons to inhabit the Rift Canyon and Wormcrawl Fissure over the ages?
And that some of them became undead?It could explain the confusion over the gender.
Even a sage casting Divinations to learn about 'the undead dragon of Rift Canyon' could get contradictory results if there are more than one creature that fit the description.
PS: I agree that the term 'dracolich' should be used sparingly, as it implies (to me) a high-level dragon spellcaster, who willingly undergoes the transformation ritual. Rather than, say, a dead dragon animated by someone else. Of course, most people who encounter such a creature will not want to stop and test the difference.
I think the whole idea is that Dragotha is supposed to be a unique phenomena in Grayhawk
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I do hate to see him called a "dracolich", though. Way too Forgotten Realms. He's THE UNDEAD DRAGON, baby. :)
I was hoping during the dragotha fight one of my party memebrs who call him a dracolich to his face er skull.
Pride....A dragon weakness and a players death...
But alas when the fight occurred my party was going Oh S*** to really bother talking. (I had a 11 Man party so I advanced the Age Catagory of Dragotha)
Bigest fireworks display I have ever seen.