I've been running an online game for a year now, and we recently played a side session using new 8th level characters which focused on events away from the PC's. I gave my players a 32 point buy for attributes, and a budget for standard 8th level characters. One of my players created a halfling fighter who regularly churns out 60-80 points of damage per hit, and has the potential to do much, much more.
At 8th level, this is extremely unbalanced for the other players, and also upsets the encounter difficulty level necessary to present a challenge for these one-time heros.
Here is the character in question;
He's a halfling fighter (wearing ogre gauntlets for 18 strength) who rides a dog and wields a lance.
He has the following feats;
Mounted Combat
Ride By Attack
Spirited Charge
Weapon Focus: Lance
Improved Weapon Focus: Lance
Power Attack
Weapons Specialization: Lance
He also carries a +1 Lance.
Now, his attack bonus with the lance looks like this:
+4 strength +1 Weapon Focus +1Weapon Focus+ +8 BAB +1 Lance +1 Size =+16 to hit
Damage looks like this:
1d6 +6 Lance (Two handed) +1 Lance +2 Weapon specs= +9
-The rules don't seem to negate the option of using a lance two-handed on a mounted charge, they merely give you the option to use it one-handed.
So, on a charge, his attack looks like this:
Charge (1d20+18) for (3d6+27) damage
Now that's bad enough, but, watch what happens if we toss a +4 power attack in there:
Charge (1d20+14) for (3d6+27+24) damage!
The power attack is doubled for using the lance two handed making it +8 and then tripled for spirited charge for 24 damage. If he uses a full power attack, He does (3d6+27+48) damage!
As a DM, I understand this character is not invincible. The dog can be killed, the terrain can be structured to make charging difficult or impossible (although a halfling and dog could easily fit into many dungeon crawls).
My question is not how to deal with it so much (I'm planning on a house rule that disallows use of power attack and spirited charge in one attack), I'd rather know if others feel like the spirited charge feat is out of balance.
I'm confident that this character is by the book (3.5), but I think the writers clearly overlooked the potential for abuse here. I can see that a mounted charge should be a devastating attack, but the x3 multiplier from spirited charge means that creatures are going ot be making fortitude saves with every hit, assuming they survive. His use of ride by attack, means he can very often line up for a single charge each round, (terrain allowing).
Anyway, I'd love to hear some feedback.
I always seem to reply to these things when I don't have my PHB handy; none-the-less, I'm next to positive you only apply the damage from power attack once - period! You don't multiply it along with criticals or multipliers from charges, etc... This is similar to other damage modifiers like the sneak attack.
As for the two handed charge - lets forget the rules and ask ourselves what the character is guiding the horse (dog in this case) with? You can argue the PC is guiding the horse with his/her knees (as does the mounted archer) but what happens when the attack hits home? In the real world that halfling better be hanging on to something or be flung from the back of the mount. It may seem unfair to the min/max player but it does make perfect sense that a charging rider must hold the riegns with one hand. I'm sure you could Google the phrase "jousting" to get some historical evidence to support this.
Lastly, the ability to make a mounted charge really depends on the opportunities you as DM allow. Terrain, obstacles, trip attacks to unmount a rider & attacks of opportunity from defenders set to recieve a charge can all play against the PC (for some giggles have an NPC Wizard or Sorcerer ready a Grease spell against the PC during a charge, tee hee). In the end, I don't think the mounted charge is any more out of balance than a Rogue's sneak attack.
Cheers.
The conditions for the mounted charge are very specific. . . the enemny has to be between 10 and 80 feet away, the mounts HAS to get there in the straight line in level terrain, there can be nothing between himself and his opponents, and you have to be able to see what you're charging at (if the dog's being ridden underground or at night.
Plus, how many hit points can a dog have? Any damage dealing area of affect that hits the halfling kills his mount every single time.
I don't think this is out of balance at all. It seems like your player has pigeonholed himself to a very specific role. . . in fact, if the Halfling CAN'T charge, he's almost useless in combat. As a good DM, you should WARN him to diversify or he's gonna find himself 100' feet ahead of the party with a paltry 15' movemement rate, with a dead dog underneath him, cut off and surrounded by enemies, weilding a weapon that can't attack adjacent foes.
I always seem to reply to these things when I don't have my PHB handy; none-the-less, I'm next to positive you only apply the damage from power attack once - period! You don't multiply it along with criticals or multipliers from charges, etc... This is similar to other damage modifiers like the sneak attack.
Extra dice of damage do not get multiplied. Additional bonuses to damage do get multiplied. There is some confusion because of the poor wording in the PHB:
"A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all of your ususal bonuses, and add the rolls together...Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, is not multiplied when you score a critical hit."
Multiply:
Strength bonuses
Enhancement bonuses
Power Attack bonuses
Smite bonuses
Favored Enemy bonuses
Weapon Specialization bonuses
Shiba Protector No Thought bonuses
etc.
Do Not Multiply:
Sneak Attack damage dice
Flaming Burst damage dice
Sudden Strike damage dice
Holy damage dice
etc.
Extra dice of damage do not get multiplied. Additional bonuses to damage do get multiplied. There is some confusion because of the poor wording in the PHB:
Hmmm. I'll take your word for it.
Cool Avatar! (I musn't have seen that one - drats).
Seems like it would be hard to charge later in the combat. When people get in the way, he loses his straight line to charge with.
I don't think it is out of balance, because it is so easily dealt with; mount death, non straight lines, going where a mount can't.
I would think, personally, and would rule, that the two-handed power attack wouldn't work. The key to a power attack is to hit harder, but doing so with a lance is really not possible. You thrust when you charge, and that's the best you can do. Two hands won't make that much difference.
I agree with the above. Yeah, 60-80 points an attack. For the first charge, with level ground where a mount and lance will fit. What else can he do?
Ever thought of an enemy who is a Cavalier, with a horse and the same stuff?Let them go at it for a while.
I've been running an online game for a year now...
I have to wonder if this is where the difficulty is coming from. These things are more or less balanced for table top play. If you don't have a table top and are not playing with minitures then I'm assuming the halfling has little dificulty saying 'I charge' every combat round. Something he might not do if he had to actually move the pieces across the board and through the enemy leaving his campanions behind and tending to draw the concentrated whieght of the enemys fire.
I'm hard pressed to accept that a dog charging with a Small lance is going to generate that much damage, but if the rules are broken, it has more to do with size of the charging mount or the magic gauntlets, than the feats.
I also agree that your player seems to be getting away with a lot of "circumstantial stretching" due to the nature of the online game...
- Presuming that the terrain will always be favorable for a charge (unless you describe otherwise every time);
- Presuming that he can wield the lance two-handed and charge (how does he guide the mount?)
- Presuming that there will always be a straight line of at least 80' between each target he charges...
I have my own "stat tweakers" in my group and I keep a close eye on them; I make sure to read each and every feat they choose and every prestige class they play - for all 14 players... If it's on the page, I might not like it, but I'll run it that way... BUT - I've also caught them interpreting the rules liberally in their favor, also.
Sometimes, the devil isn't in the adding up of all the feats, but the way one will interact with the other to give a 'Synergy Bonus'...
Of course, the easy way to deal with the extra offensive capability of this character would be to simply put him up against higher CR encounters that are more even of a challenge...and watch the characters drop like flies.
...But that wouldn't be fair...
M
I have to wonder if this is where the difficulty is coming from. These things are more or less balanced for table top play. If you don't have a table top and are not playing with minitures then I'm assuming the halfling has little dificulty saying 'I charge' every combat round....
Actually we use an online game table, which allows for maps and minis, the whole bit. Its really a nice way to run a campaign.
Extra dice of damage do not get multiplied. Additional bonuses to damage do get multiplied. There is some confusion because of the poor wording in the PHB:
"A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all of your ususal bonuses, and add the rolls together...Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, is not multiplied when you score a critical hit."
Multiply:
Strength bonuses
Enhancement bonuses
Power Attack bonuses
Smite bonuses
Favored Enemy bonuses
Weapon Specialization bonuses
Shiba Protector No Thought bonuses
etc.Do Not Multiply:
Sneak Attack damage dice
Flaming Burst damage dice
Sudden Strike damage dice
Holy damage dice
etc.
Skylark is right on here. In other words, the bonuses as calculated by the player are correct. In fact, he even wrote WotC afterwards, being a DM himself, and received a response that he had done the math correctly. No, the character is legitimate.
I do appreciate all the repsonse though, and yes, any DM worth his salt can take the dog out, or make charging difficult, but I can't shake the strange feeling that settles on me, when an 8th level character does this much damage in one hit. In fact, he's not really one-dimensional as posted earlier, just if you take away his charge, he becomes a normal 8th level fighter...back in the saddle, he's superhuman. (super-halfling)
In fact, he's not really one-dimensional as posted earlier, just if you take away his charge, he becomes a normal 8th level fighter...back in the saddle, he's superhuman. (super-halfling)
Ha! I keep getting this image in my head of Super Mario riding Yoshi. . . it's very weird.
Anyway, you have a good point there. However, I personally don't think he's a normal fighter out of the saddle. . . an 8th level Fighter will have 8 Feats to work with. . . he's used all of his on the Lance and Mounted Combat stuff, and wouldn't stand toe to toe with another 8th level fighter who's used his feats in a more balanced way.
Also, as to chrurning out 60-80 points per round. . . I don't think that's too bad considering the number of conditions the PC has to meet. I'm loooking outside my window right now, and the apartment complex, and surroudning area doesn't have a single good charging area anywhere (except Target, of course).
Also, I was thining about other 8th level characters dealing lots of damage. Here's another example:
8th Level Half-Orc barbarian: Let's say, with items, his strength is 22, and he uses a +1 Two-Handed Sword. He has Power Attack. If he hits in melee with both of his attacks, he will do a minimum of 24 points of damage. If he hits with both attacks with a -8 power attack, is in Rage, and manages to roll average damage, that'll be a grand total of 72 points of damage in a single round (his attacks are +8/+3). Same situation, but the guy gets two crits and rolls max damage. . . it's like. . . urgh, alot. Granted these damage examples still aren't quite as much as your halfing rider, but the Barbarian isn't putting his eggs in one basket like the halfling. He has felxibility with the extent of his Power Attack and Rage, and can use his abilities in any 10'x10' room, whether he's indoors, outdoors, blind, on an iceflow, rocky badlands, etc.
Anyway, those are my two cents. I guess if you guys aren't having fun with the character, and the ther player's are glumbling, you can always just say that Spirited Charge cannot be used. . .
So, on a charge, his attack looks like this:
Charge (1d20+18) for (3d6+27) damage
Now that's bad enough, but, watch what happens if we toss a +4 power attack in there:
Charge (1d20+14) for (3d6+27+24) damage!
The power attack is doubled for using the lance two handed making it +8 and then tripled for spirited charge for 24 damage. If he uses a full power attack, He does (3d6+27+48) damage!
From my perspective, this is an example of where the rules and reality don't synch up. How do we explain the meaning of power attack in the context of using a lance? Is he thrusting the lance forward his all his might just before impact? Is it then still "set for a charge"?
Doing 85 points of damage after a 10 foot charge on a dog just seems wrong, but more power to him for putting all his eggs in one basket. You could make a ruling that he can't power attack on a spirited charge, but I wouldn't do that since this has probably been his plan since 1st level.
He is obviously optimized for a single strong target with a reasonable armor class on good terrain. So give him something else sometimes, like:
- many weaker opponents. He can only take out one per round.
- rough terrain. He can't charge.
- people in the way, for example attacking the party from the side he is not on. He can't charge the first round.
- things in the way. He can't charge.
- a significant threat to his mount. I would consider putting every ranged attack on his dog after his first demonstration of power.
- opponents with a high armor class to prevent him from power attacking. This is a particularly good option, because it still lets him do his thing, but with more reasonable results (30-some points of damage instead of 60 or 85).
However, I wouldn't do these things all the time because that completely emasculates his carefully min/maxed character. His character is pretty un-good in every other way.
My personal response is to disallow the combination of power attack with spirited charge.
As for all of you that have suggested that charge opportunities are few and far between.....well, I guess my dungeons are full of a lot more 10' spaces than your own. The halfling also uses ride-by-attack, to take advantage of the space behind the target, linining up his next charge (if there is any space). Although this isn't a factor, because since my creatures are all CR'ed for 8th level characters, none of them survive the first charge.
Damage Reduction becomes meaningless in situations like this.
Nonetheless, I can see plenty of ways to challenge the character. But is it really feasible that a lance would do more damage than a dragon's slam attack? Or a giant boulder? Or a cannon ball?
A good CR8 encounter might be 5 Ogres. . . 2-3 Trolls, or a couple Girallions, even a group of 15 1st level Barbarian Orcs. You don't have to plan them out or anything.
Whenever a charging halfing dog flies through the ranks, killing ONE of them, the natural reaction of the others IMHO, would be to charge right back en masse. . . his turn is finished - he's alone, cut off behind enemy lines, and he presents a perfect low-risk target.
Plus, with the rest of the enemy in his face, he's going to have to waste a round backing up. . . if he survives their initial attacks at all. His dog sure won't, expecailly if the enemy attacks are indiscriminate.
He may have some inital sucess with his charge, but I'm telling you that if he keeps doing this, he's a dead little halfing.
Nonetheless, I can see plenty of ways to challenge the character. But is it really feasible that a lance would do more damage than a dragon's slam attack? Or a giant boulder? Or a cannon ball?
It's as feasable as Indiana Jones taking out a Tank, 40 Nazis, and a few other vehicles with a 6-shooter and a horse.
In D&D, at least in my humble opinion, that's the idea.
Nonetheless, I can see plenty of ways to challenge the character. But is it really feasible that a lance would do more damage than a dragon's slam attack? Or a giant boulder? Or a cannon ball?
Hey mounted knights take out dragons and giants all the time.
Your little fellow is pretty rude but not compared to my group's half-ogre, fighter/barbarian, Cleave, Large and In Charge, Monkeygrip, Power Attack, huge magical adamantine scythe-weilding wonder. Fortunately I got to see my characters before we started the game. Yes, he can sometimes beat seven bails of hell out of everything in a 30 foot field and then there are times, because of his size, the AC of the enemy, or the fact that he's best friends with the enemy spellcaster now that he can't, but that's D&D.
That was the player's character concept - you've got to work with it. Maybe this adventure was that character's time to shine but the next one could be tougher.
It's like the combat rogue example every now and then there is a dungeon full of constructs, plants, oozes, or undead and the other characters are going to have to handle the brunt of combat in it.
Let me also say that the half-ogre also experiences some social stigma as well.
Dunjon Rulz:
No Dawgs Allowed,
GGG
In the last couple of decades I've run across many, many well thought out and nearly perfected min/max characters. Yes they can be one dimensional and yes they can deal extraordinary amounts of attacks/damage but in most of my long term campaigns and adventures, the DM has used that character to set the bar and be the barometer for the difficulty of combat leaving two different outcomes. The rest of the party starts number crunching in a big hurry to catch up or the rest of the party, being slightly annoyed by repeated drops into unconciousness, leave a lone character to run around and save them all while still being attacked. If everybody min maxes to some degree than the halfling rider works, just beef up the difficulty. If everyone else is annoyed by the halfling then be creative and "enlighten" him on the problems you have with his character. Who made it mandatory that you use CR8 encounters for 8th level characters? Creativity is the key.
I agree this should basically only work in combat where the foe is spotted at long range in open terrain…something fairly rare in most published adventures. Also, this character is built only for this single attack, which may be great if you are playing a mounted warfare campaign. Against a Flying foe…something fairly common in outdoor adventures, this character is worthless…unless the dog can fly. Also if the character’s foes are grouped together, he may be subject to a bunch of counter attacks and weapons set vs charge. Thrown in spells, and this guy is meat. So let him do massive damage to a single creature…if the ground is flat, the range of combat is in his advantage, and the other factors are in his favor. If you game takes place on the Russian Stepps then this should be fine.
In a dungeon rooms will rarely allow for the 80ft straight line charge. Same goes for forests, or, well most other terrain common in D&D.
ASEO out
This particular session was part of side story developing away from the regular characters, with the foes all prepared long in advance before I saw the character sheets. In actuality, my setting couldn't have been less charge friendly (Kytons had strung up chains all over a descrated temple of Boccob, not to mention a few ice walls, courtesy of a Gelugon) and definitely didn't allow for much charging. The character had plenty on his hands, although he was able to find a stray bearded devil, kill it in 6 seconds, and also took a big chunk out of one of my ice devils before he actually killed his own dog jumping through a hole in one of the devils ice walls.
Anyway, from the sound of it, none of you would be too concerned if an 8th level player dished out 80-100 hp's of damage in a single hit, since the circumstances necessary for that particular attack limit its usage. I'm personally concerned because of the effect it has on other players, when they start feeling a bit like Aquaman in a desert, and also find it a bit difficult when the very limitations of the character become a key struggling point between player and DM i.e. "Of course I can charge here, I only need 10' and I've got such and such a feat that allows....." and so on. I know these arguments are easily quelled, but I'd personally rather stick to play, and not have to resort to the "DM maks the rules" rule.
he actually killed his own dog jumping through a hole in one of the devils ice walls.
So that pretty much ended your problem? Or did he have a spare dog in his pocket. You could actually have fun creatively killing of his dog (which should be fairly easy with some area effect spells, or just creatures targeting it) each session. Make sure you know what all his feats are and that you understand the capabilities of each one. That way he can't pull one over on you. I would think that he should be getting a max of one charge per combat. The dungeon could easily have ladders, or caverns that are high enough off the ground that they are unaccessable to the dog. You don't want to make obvious that you are excluding the dog though. But this player has a very one dimentional character, that should be out of his comfort zone in 98% of all encounters.
ASEO out
I'm personally concerned because of the effect it has on other players, when they start feeling a bit like Aquaman in a desert, and also find it a bit difficult when the very limitations of the character become a key struggling point between player and DM i.e.
A good concern. . . hopefully, they understand that he built his character so specifically. . . he WILL get a great chance to shine, in the same way that a Wizard can handle a literal swarm of humanoid warriors with a couple fireballs.
Like ASEO said, he shouldn't be charging more than once an encounter (if he can at all). . . depending on the circumstances. Make this clear with the guy before you start playing. . . I hate having game mecahnics arguments, too. They totally kill the mood.