first time dm'ing in ten years. advice?


Dungeon Magazine General Discussion


hello all,
newbie on these boards but, not to d&d...
recently joined a group and have been asked to dm,(i used to all the time).
been pouring over the core books and the forgotten realms sourcebook.
i noticed with these particular players that they are very good at min/maxing, this bothers me mainly because they become so focused on "he can't!!no way!,huh-uh!,but, i have this, this and this!!" or,simply whining when attacked by an intelligent creature that actually thinks before attacking, i can already hear the arguments coming...
what do you fellow dm's do to let players understand that your not being "evil" your just playing monsters as they should be?


The first few adventures I ran were pre-written (like from Dungeon ) and I'd just say "It's not me, that's what it says here in the adventure." That kind of let me be on their side. From then on, my group has never questioned if I'm being to hard on them. They may think it, but they don't complain.

Contributor

That's really good advice from Dagda. I would also say that you're just going to have to build their trust a bit. Roll dice in the open, tell them straight-up what's going on if they ask. I know it will ruin some of the "mystery" at first, but after a few sessions when they see you're not screwing them over, they'll relax and you can be more mysterious.

In my experience players like that have been screwed by DMs in the past who arbitrarily have them lose or have them robbed of their powers for the "sake of the story". They may be afraid you'll do the same. So build up some trust, and then don't abuse it.

-Amber Scott


thanks,
i was thinking along those lines too.
i was(am)a huge ravenloft fan when i last dm'd...i just love the gothic horror feel. those are also my favorite "monsters".
i created what i think is a really deep story with plot twists and, puzzles. some of my story will require some "trust" and, after playing with these other gamers there is a whole new breed of "invincible characters" being created, it really makes it tough to dm for them. more time is being spent debating rules and why their character is being attacked? (duh),(guess that's not really new).
thanks,
chris


Hey, the best you can do is to try and curve the adventure so that their "Min/maxing" only plays a limited effect. If they come across a sphinx, if they kill it, they could lose the greater treasure than if they sat back and used their brains. Also, play up the role playing. Too many players are getting into the hack and slash and forgetting that characters have lives too.


Also as the DM remember you control the sources that the PCs are allowed to use to create characters. I find that most min/maxer use lots of prestige classes. In my campaign the character needs a good role playing reason for having access to a prestige class. I don't let my players comb the hundreds of books to cherry pick the PrC they want and just use it. Everything not in the core rulebooks requires DM approval for my campaigns.


I'm with Randomjack on this issue. When PCs begin, I only allow the PHB (and maybe one feat or spell from a main setting suppliment). Other d20 rules are introduced once I've looked them over and there's a good reason for them. The heroes may find a scroll with some spells from Monte Cook's Book of Eldritch Might or an enemy may be using a magic weapon from a recent Dragon Magazin.

I'm VERY fortunate to have very cool players that know that I'll give their PCs great opportunities later in their careers so they don't have to pile stuff on as quickly as possible.


wngdweeler,

The "modern" gamer seems to be a min-maxer. To give them a touch of "old school", pretend you're playing like you used to "back in the day". Did you ever play during lunch in jr. high? If so, you told stories with your friends, without the aid of 50 lbs of books.

Another thing: how many players are in your game? If you want to start pushing the ROLEplaying asoect of the game rather than the ROLLplaying mode they sound like they may be in, a good trick is to find a way to split the party, and do a short 1-on-1 with each of them. Or break them into 2-player teams. Either way, put the books away completely and play a session like this, and make them describe what their characters are doing rather than encouraging lots of rules. Still use the dice, but use your godly DM powers to just look at the rolls and say "that succeeded" or whatever.


thanks for the responses,
all good info!
i brought that up with the original dm(put your books away).
he looked like a deer in headlights!
i explained to him that "back in the day", my best group and i could roleplay an entire night away with just a few die rolls.
he said"there's no way,i could never do that".
we have 5 players and the dm(me and one other that has relinquished the duty to me).
his usual response to my ideas begin with "but, the rules say"
it's hard to find players you really enjoy and i'm afraid i'll be in search of another group. thet really sap my energy when they really just want to crack the books and debate the rules and, how to bend them so their characters "win".


Actually, don't "the rules say" something to the effect of "don't let the rules get in the way of telling a good story"? I seem to remember seeing something about that in the first few pages of the DMG... ;)


oh, i completely agree slash,
when i questioned the dm about how a 4thlevel rogue can have 10 ranks in anything he had no response.
he constantly bends the rules for certain players.
in one of our sessions this rogue does nothing but,"i'm hiding,i rolled a 25 no one see's me", when i asked him how he knew he was hiding he said "i rolled a 25". the dm just nodded.
another time when my character, (dwarf cleric of moradin) was discussing with another player how we can best fit in a particular battle, he looks to the rogue and says, "gee, i didn't know table talk was allowed?" i bit my tongue but, on every ruling he made i stopped what i was doing and cracked the books just to annoy him, it worked. maybe i answered my own question....i need a new group.


I am with Bavix and Random Jack, limit the access your PCs have to stuff. Then if you want to introduce stuff then you can and see how it balances out.

I am a staunch follower of the "modern" gamer has to much stuff. So much, in fact, that they over look basic things. For instance, last campiagn one of my players was playing the groups cleric. It was his first time of playing a cleric. Also in the group was a guy that I have been gaming with for the last 5-6 years. He was playing an angel (gaheale sp?) any way he was wanting to use the BoED as did the cleric. I said sure, little did I know that I was opening up a can of worms.

I knew something was amiss when the Cleric said, "hey this sancutary spell is pretty tight." This statement was towards the end of the campaign. It made me take a look at the number of books the players had ammassed since 3ed had came out.

Surmise to say that this next campaign the entire group is allowed things only from the PHB and select other things. Not the 50 lbs of books before. Your in control and the trust is important.

Rolling dice infront of the characters can be bad as well. Since there is no way to shave the damage dealt out. Last campaign I was rolling at the table with the players. One of the players told me to go back behind the screen to give us a break...all in all good luck in your game!!!


wngdweeler, it sounds like you do need a new group. May Maradin lead you to one, my brother (I also play a dwarf Cleric of Moradin).

griffrat, I've gotten to where I only roll dice in secret if it absolutely has to be done. Damage and to-hit rolls are all up front for the players to see, even if inopportune hits or damage cause problems. From experience on both sides of the DM screen, I've found that the players feel like the DM is cheating (either being a bastard or a wuss) if he rolls behind the screen too often. Especially for hits and damage. Hurting (or even killing) characters is a great way to give them incentive to learn to use better tactics. Besides, death in D&D is hardly the end of a character's career.


I know it's heresy to say this, but in my opinion 1st. edition AD&D will always be my favorite version of the game because of all the min/maxing that goes on and the stacks of books that you seem to need these days.


slashdevnull wrote:
.... Hurting (or even killing) characters is a great way to give them incentive to learn to use better tactics. Besides, death in D&D is hardly the end of a character's career.

Couldn't agree more. That was the whole reason of mew moving in front of the screen.

I think that with the incarnation of D&D we have now allows for more of a fluid battle with the aspects of logic and tactics for the characters to figure out and think before charging into a room of Gnoll fighters with only four hps...

Sometimes players are not as tough as they think they are....;p

Liberty's Edge

wngdweeler wrote:

...been pouring over the core books and the forgotten realms sourcebook.

i noticed with these particular players that they are very good at min/maxing, this bothers me mainly because they become so focused on "he can't!!no way!,huh-uh!,but, i have this, this and this!!" or,simply whining when attacked by an intelligent creature that actually thinks before attacking, i can already hear the arguments coming...
what do you fellow dm's do to let players understand that your not being "evil" your just playing monsters as they should be?

Just a hint: If you already have min/max players, be very careful when running a FR campaign! I love the realms, but I don't use it as the high-magic (sometimes monty haul) setting it is. A lot of npcs in the FRCS have damn good magical stuff and (as players most of the time defeat the npc) they might end up with a lot of stuff. You wrote that you are a experienced DM and I don't want to offend you with this tip (I am sure you already gave a thought to this), but I made this mistake with my first FR campaign and will never do this again!

Dagda and Medesha are both right here with their tips! Roll the dice openly and tell them it's written in the module! They might complain at first (for sure) but after a while they will trust you, even if you now roll the dice behind a screen!
Another hint: If you show them off, don't laugh or grin at them, because they might get the feeling you are working against them! If you stay cool and honest, your players will stop complaining after a while!


I'm pretty much exclusively the DM with my group. None of them has ever run the game before. My people are pretty trusting, because I've done nothing to betray them. I don't grin evilly when they get killed, and I always congratulate them if they make it out of a sticky predicament. I have never rolled dice in the open because I want the players to strategize based on the action, not the dice. Imagine what happens when a golem trudges in and whacks their best armored character with a roll of 3. It's no longer just a hit, it's a reason to bolt. Likewise, if some daunting-looking foe swings and misses with an 18, those characters aren't going anywhere. If I roll a 20 or a 1 at a critical or questionable moment, I'll show the die to them to avoid the eye-rolling.

Rolling behind the screen doesn't foster distrust in my game, it increases the tension (like when I roll and just stare wide-eyed for a few seconds), and allows me to "shave damage" on occasion. Treating the players like fodder, like each dungeon is designed to kill them, fosters frustration and distrust. Instead, treat the dungeon as a challenge to be beaten, and express that to your players in small doses. My guys are completely addicted to the game now.

P.S. It sounds like the entire problem was spawned by a bad DM. Maybe some good DM'ing can turn your guys around, but expect the old DM to be defensive if they like the game better with you.


Hiya Griff!

Anyway, I've gotta say that after I started rolling my dice in front of the player's (hit and damage) they started using better tactics, when a couple of them died. They have found out that monsters/villians have Intelligence scores as well, and I'm not afraid of using them!

The only dice I roll behind the screen are random encounters and skill checks for the bad guys or NPCs.


Asberdies Lives wrote:

I'm pretty much exclusively the DM with my group. None of them has ever run the game before. My people are pretty trusting, because I've done nothing to betray them. I don't grin evilly when they get killed, and I always congratulate them if they make it out of a sticky predicament. I have never rolled dice in the open because I want the players to strategize based on the action, not the dice. Imagine what happens when a golem trudges in and whacks their best armored character with a roll of 3. It's no longer just a hit, it's a reason to bolt. Likewise, if some daunting-looking foe swings and misses with an 18, those characters aren't going anywhere. If I roll a 20 or a 1 at a critical or questionable moment, I'll show the die to them to avoid the eye-rolling.

Rolling behind the screen doesn't foster distrust in my game, it increases the tension (like when I roll and just stare wide-eyed for a few seconds), and allows me to "shave damage" on occasion. Treating the players like fodder, like each dungeon is...

I absolutely agree with Asberdies. I have never rolled the dice in the open, and I don't intend to start. There are too many situations where rolling secretly allows you to preserve the mystery and tension of the game. Heck, I'll generally throw in a few completely meaningless dice throws just to keep them off balance.

Of course, my players all know that I am not out to kill their characters (though I will), and that I tend to reward smart play. My games are not all about playing the odds.

I had a new player complain about this once, but before I could even open my mouth, my other players were jumping in and defending me. I can't ask for a better endorsement than that.

I've also had my share of min/max type players. I have found that they either change their approach to the game, or they eventually leave the group when they find that their super stats or skill combos don't mean as much to me as creative role playing. When they stay, that tells me I have done a good job.

Here's a tip: If you have to kill a character off, make it as dramatic as you can. Play it up. Make it part of the mythos. If you can, arrange it so that the "sacrifice" of the character saves the party from "sure destruction", or something to that effect. Don't be afraid to fudge a bit to make it happen - just don't be too obvious, or do it every time, or it will get boring. If you do it right, your players will love it, and be eager to jump back in with a new character.


Just last weekend I had a player who played really foolishly. He had bluffed his way into the Crater Ridge Mines (Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil) all by himself. He started just wandering around. Worked fine until he wandered into a green dragon's lair. One round later, the dragon had him at 1 hp and was standing over him with a claw on his chest.

I guess sometimes I'm a soft DM because I let the player plead with the dragon. He gave up all his magical items, over 6000gp worth of coin and gems (which was all he had on him except for his clothes). The PC was last seen running away down the tunnel to the sound of a laughing dragon. 8-)

I thought it fit to have the dragon enjoy to taunting the cultists in the mines to show his superiority.

Long story short. A few times of letting the characters live like this, and they do trust that although they die occasionally, I'm not trying (too hard) to kill them off.


that's too funny!
i planned on having a recurring character(vampire).
i similarly would like to fleece the characters a bit...
this is where the"no way, i'm hiding!" starts to creep in...
oh well, i'll just run what i have planned and deal with it.
thanks, for the helpful posts though,i'll keep you all posted on how it goes.


At the beginning of D&D 3e, I was returning to DMing for the first time in ten or more years. Instead of throwing a single clever, tough monster at them, I just pounded them with tons of lesser adversaries.
It allowed me to insure the preservation of my plotline and let me learn the rules at the same time. It's much better than risking it all with one villain and screwing up the story when he's killed in their first encounter.


One of the best ways to deal with a min-maxer is to just put them in situations where their lack of broad-based ability hurts them a bit. Intelligent players will tend to broaden their horizons (if you used a light touch, and they don't hate you).

Min/maxers tend to be so focused on one tactic that they don't have any other real abilties.

For example, if you have melee-maxed guys, throw in a few encounters that favor ranged attackers. For example, put a few kobolds on tree platforms or a ledge. While the mage is throwing spells that way (and spending way too many slots for such a small encounter), the melee guys are going to be sitting on their hands or climbing (under fire) trying to get to the enemy or throwing their single back-up dagger with that Dex of 10.

Clerics that rely on masssive buffs get really unhappy when anyone casts a targetted or area Dispel Magic on them. Wands with a few charges of Dispel Magic are great for NPCs and great treasure for PCs.

Mages that abuse mind control magic can usually be foiled by enemies that use AoE attacks that kill off Charmed monsters. Surprise traps are also a way to "use up" Charmed monsters, but still make the PCs feel that they got a good value from the monster.

Sundering a favored weapon is also a great way to force a player to reevaluate his character choices (but make sure that the Sunder takes a few sucessful hits/rounds to work, so that the player knows that the enemy is trying this and by continuing the combat, the player is making a choice to take the risk). Archery-focused characters tend to be suckers for this tactic. If you do this on a magic weapon, you must also make sure that you have a replacement weapon somewhere in the adventure. Going a few encounters without a favored weapon is one thing, but making a PC loose thousands in GP of equipment is another!

But remember, don't use "anti-min/maxer" tactics too often, or it will feel like you are "out to get" the PCs. If ten to twenty percent of your encounters are like this (or the occcasional boss-battle), you should be fine.

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