|
I just had the chance to read Cheliax Empire of Devils (great book btw) and saw this little feat and the wording struck me as odd.
It says that whenever you make a succesfull attack during the surprise round you can make a second attack with the same bonus and that the target isn´t considered flat footed against said attack.
Now the reazon for my confusion is that it sounds like it would allow a rogue to keep attacking as long as he didnñt miss, or am i reading it wrong or is the wording just weird?
In general, what´s the intention of the feat?
I just had the chance to read Cheliax Empire of Devils (great book btw) and saw this little feat and the wording struck me as odd.
It says that whenever you make a succesfull attack during the surprise round you can make a second attack with the same bonus and that the target isn´t considered flat footed against said attack.
Now the reazon for my confusion is that it sounds like it would allow a rogue to keep attacking as long as he didnñt miss, or am i reading it wrong or is the wording just weird?
In general, what´s the intention of the feat?
You can't make an additional attack beyond the second because that wouldn't be a second attack -- it would be a third. The feat doesn't grant any ability to make more than 2 total attacks in the surprise round.
Also, there's a key different between making an attack as a standard action (see Vital Strike) and using your standard action to use a feat that has an attack as a part of it. That said, you wouldn't be able to use (Great) Cleave with this feat. However, you could use Vital Strike (:
|
|
It only mentions an attack. And I jus wanted to make sure. However how does that work with multiple attacks?
For example my rogue charges and stabs someone triggering hellcat pounce, he gets an extra attack (and since it´s only a second one then it ends there). What happens if on that same round the oponent provokes an attack of op, Would that trigger the feat? As i see it it triggers each time i make a legitimate attack during the surprise round (whenever you attack and damage an oponent...)
How does that work with two weapon fighting or multiple attacks? Does the word ¨second¨on the description is supposed to imply that it stops at once during the entyre surprise round?
PS i don´t want to come off as annoying or a munchkinizer, I just want to know what was the intent on the feat.
It only mentions an attack. And I jus wanted to make sure. However how does that work with multiple attacks?
For example my rogue charges and stabs someone triggering hellcat pounce, he gets an extra attack (and since it´s only a second one then it ends there). What happens if on that same round the oponent provokes an attack of op, Would that trigger the feat? As i see it it triggers each time i make a legitimate attack during the surprise round (whenever you attack and damage an oponent...)
The use of the word "attack" during the surprise round typically means the attack standard action.
Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.
Attacks of opportunity aren't actions players take, they're triggers to other actions. So the feat would not trigger if you take an attack of opportunity during a surprise round. You can't take an attack standard action during an attack of opportunity, you just make an attack.
How does that work with two weapon fighting or multiple attacks? Does the word ¨second¨on the description is supposed to imply that it stops at once during the entyre surprise round?
Once you use the attack standard action, you are granted a second attack. There's no additional attacks beyond that second attack.
I can definitely see the confusion. I think they had to preserve the confusing wording from 3.5 to maintain 3.5 compatibility.
It only mentions an attack. And I jus wanted to make sure. However how does that work with multiple attacks?
For example my rogue charges and stabs someone triggering hellcat pounce, he gets an extra attack (and since it´s only a second one then it ends there). What happens if on that same round the oponent provokes an attack of op, Would that trigger the feat? As i see it it triggers each time i make a legitimate attack during the surprise round (whenever you attack and damage an oponent...)
How does that work with two weapon fighting or multiple attacks? Does the word ¨second¨on the description is supposed to imply that it stops at once during the entyre surprise round?PS i don´t want to come off as annoying or a munchkinizer, I just want to know what was the intent on the feat.
Considering you only get a standard or move action in the surprise round you shouldn't have a second attack to worry about confusing things. As for Attacks of Opportunity... It's something that will come up fairly rarely so I would probably let my player get a second attack on an AoO.
Alright that makes sense, the feat makes reference but does not specify attacks made as standart actions, that works. So i guess that attacks made within a full attack (as a full round action) don´t trigge it at all
You can't make a full attack during the surprise round so this feat would never apply in combination with a full attack.
You can't make a full attack during the surprise round so this feat would never apply in combination with a full attack.
That's not exactly true. Normal Pounce lets you full attack even on a surprise round, provided you can charge. How that works with Hellcat pounce, I have no idea.
You can't make a full attack during the surprise round so this feat would never apply in combination with a full attack.That's not exactly true. Normal Pounce lets you full attack even on a surprise round, provided you can charge. How that works with Hellcat pounce, I have no idea.
Hmm.. Pounce requires "Charging" which is listed as a full round action. Surprise is limited to standard or move therefore no charging/ pouncing during the surprise round. That's kind of wonky IMO because during the surprise round is the best time to make a charge/ pounce but thems the rules from what I can tell.
Regardless:
My feeling is that anytime you mix and match feats/ abilities from different sources there is DM's discretion involved. Sometimes GMs just gotta wing it, in particular when you are mixing 3.5 supplements with PfRPG materials.
You can charge with a standard action if you are only allowed to take a standard action (say you are slowed or during a surprise round).
Dennis just missed something in the combat section.
You can charge with a standard action if you are only allowed to take a standard action (say you are slowed or during a surprise round).
Dennis just missed something in the combat section.
Hmm... I stand corrected... apologies. Should have read the whole section. (It's about 2 paragraphs down from where it says it's a full round action)
Thanks Abraham
It seems now that it is a fairly good option to give rogues an extra combat advantage, specially since the pre requisite is a fairly good feat itself.
Yeah, the prereq is almost too good. Hide in daylight even while observed? Yeah you still need cover or concealment but it almost seems like a rogue with blur plus that spell has something pretty close to improved invisibility. I'm going to see if I can't talk my GM into letting me have that one. He kind of rolls his eyes already when I use stealth though so I'm not sure.
Don't rogues also get a trick they can take that makes an opponent flat footed for the entire surprise round? I'm AFB right now.
However I would point out that Surprise rounds -- especially for a party -- are not a common occurrence... and spending a feat on the chance you might be able to take advantage of one is a bit huge too.
(Don't sweat it guys, I have missed plenty in that book myself already)
|
|
Point being that there aren´t that many feat options for rogues floating around there for PFRPG, and since the prereq feat is almost a no brainer for a stealth rogue, and characters have more feats nowadays, might as well be really good at what rogues do best (which is hitting you when you´re not ready)
PS. This gives me a lot of hope for new splatbooks to come, new options are always fun.