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Looks like we are being treated to more fluff from Wizards of the Coast. Why do we need a Player's Handbook 3. Were 1 and 2 not up to scratch. I know why. All the new books I've checked out recently from Wizards are thin tomes with large fonts (i.e. low word count) and ridiculous price tags.
Personally I felt that Wizards had pulled off a remarkable rule system with the advent of D&D version 3 (and 3.5 was an improvement)and I would say, arguably, that this was the acme of their rule system achievement. I invested heavily in 3rd edition D&D over the years and was impressed with the scale and quality of the Forgotten Realms supplements which I relied on for my own adventures.
Then suddenly D&D 4 comes out and we're plunged 100 or so years into the future in FR where everything changes. I could live with that, but the new rule system I believe is a shambles. It appeared to me that Wizards had oversimplified the game, perhaps in order to boost sales of even more books and appeal to the lazier gamer. Do we not have enough games of this ilk already?
It was bad enough that there was a rule change, but having no further support from Wizards for 3rd edition aficionados, I felt like giving up gaming altogether. I've been playing since the 1970's when the first edition came out.
I understand that any company wishes to make a profit, but why not tweak the rules over the years with the help of GM and player feedback, release more actual source books and most importantly publish more adventure modules. Is it me or was their a dearth of adventure modules published by Wizards for the Forgotten Realms campaign setting? My favorite adventure and for my players was the brilliant large scale adventure "City of the Spider Queen" by James Wyatt.
It wasn't until I discovered Pathfinder by Paizo that I realized there were others out there who still loved 3.5. I was very excited about this product and the rule tweaks are excellent. I purchased the Core Rulebook and Bestiary immediately and I am looking forward to the new Pathfinder source books to be released in the future. It's great I don't need to throw away all my old 3rd edition books after all I just need to convert them.
Please, please Paizo don't go down the same path that Wizards went.
Okay, first off, let me state that I'm still a hard-core 3.5e fan, still transitioning my home campaign to Pathfinder. You'd be surprised how tough it is to convert a 5-year-old campaign world :)
However, since I have the 4e PHB3, I think I'm justified in commenting that it's not just another fluff book.
If you don't play 4e, of course, it's a pointless thing to own, and thus not really fair to rant about especially if you don't know what's in it.
If you *do* play 4e, however, it is an excellent addition to the existing PHB and PHB2. In fact, the hybrid class rules are an alternate to multiclassing that works pretty well, and the new classes are just as good as the ones in the previous books.
The whole reason I have any of this stuff, of course, is becuase I help run a living convention campaign that we did transition from 3.5e to 4e.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Hi, welcome to the internet! As you may know, the ability to post messages and communicate with other people has existed for well over a decade now. It may come as something of a shock to you, having just emerged from whatever remote internet-less location you inhabit to discover the existence of 4e and PFRPG, but this discussion has already happened almost 2.6 bazillion times. Maybe you could go peruse some old threads and pretend like you got to participate on the ground floor.
Ooh! I hear that there's a lively debate going on in some circles about the deportation of Elian Gonzales. Maybe you could chime in there as well.
I like Sebastian's answer much better than mine :)
Hey, did you hear about that tussle that Roe was having with Wade?
Hey, did you hear about that tussle that Roe was having with Wade?Now all we need is a Godwin.
Also, Nazis.
There.
This will solve everything.... Express yourself with this random survey. I'll just provide the usual canned responses so we can all avoid this in the future.
4e just doesn't feel like __________________ to me.
A. Jello laced with chunks of zucchini
B. D&D
C. My old worn blankey
It feels like _______________ on paper.
A. Pac-Man
B. World of Warcraft
C. The silent cry of my soul realized
If I wanted to play a ______________ I would.
A. Game of spin the bottle with my cousins
B. Miniatures Simulation
C. Mexican guitar solo
The system fails to support ________________.
A. My broken desk chair
B. Role playing
C. Grandma's sagging addiction to Werther's Originals
Really, folks? It'd be nice if people could just let a discussion of 4th edition pass by without taking the opportunity to dredge up old fights. If you have an opinion of the product actually featured in this store blog, please feel free to share, but any addition edition-war trolling, or responses to it, in this thread will be removed.
Nah. Just nuke it from the sky, Ross.
That survey is pretty damn hilarious. I LMAO at work :-)
IF I were playing 4E I would absolutely pick this book up for Psionics alone much less whetever else is in it.
Just curious now you mentioned it ... what did they end up doing with Psionics, anyway? Anyone?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Really, folks? It'd be nice if people could just let a discussion of 4th edition pass by without taking the opportunity to dredge up old fights. If you have an opinion of the product actually featured in this store blog, please feel free to share, but any addition edition-war trolling, or responses to it, in this thread will be removed.
Er...uh...the OP was a dredge up of old fights, and we responded with "no thanks, we've already done that" and went in to silly mode. If you want to delete the OP to make the blog posts useful, by all means, please do so. The OP was going to start an edition war, and the posters in this thread did a pretty good job stomping it out early.
Er...uh...the OP was a dredge up of old fights, and we responded with "no thanks, we've already done that" and went in to silly mode. If you want to delete the OP to make the blog posts useful, by all means, please do so. The OP was going to start an edition war, and the posters in this thread did a pretty good job stomping it out early.
The defense rests.
Well I don't have anything to add to the edition wars, and I don't have anything snarky to say to those who do, so I'm not sure this is the place to mention my take on PHB3.
As someone who owns much of the 3.5 and the 4e catalog, this book looks great, and I'll probably purchase it in the next couple months. I'll certainly get it before my copy of Dark Sun arrives, as I'm sure it will be required to run a Dark Sun campaign.
I'm uncertain if the XX1, XX2, XX3 model works for every major line though. I was happy to buy Arcane, Divine, Martial, and Primal Power, but I'm not at all excited about a Martial Power 2, and kinda get the heebie-jeebies about the potential for a Martial Power 3. The PHB, DMG, and Monster Manual lines, however, are products I'd be interested in purchasing as long as the content continues to interest me.
Of course, I'm at Paizo commenting so I'm not an exclusive 4e/Wizards customer. I really really like Pathfinder's adventures, and I like the Pathfinder rpg just fine.
I think it's interesting that each company is taking slightly different, though similar, approaches:
Pathfinder: One single rpg book with everything in it. Multiple adventure modules, campaign setting chronicles, and Game Mastery map packs, cards, etc. (Pathfinder also has a print-based subscription service)
D&D 4e: Series of modular rules books, multiple campaign settings of just two volumes each, multiple adventure modules, and Dungeon Tiles/minis/power cards. (D&D 4e also has an electronic subscription service)
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Just curious now you mentioned it ... what did they end up doing with Psionics, anyway? Anyone?That survey is pretty damn hilarious. I LMAO at work :-)
IF I were playing 4E I would absolutely pick this book up for Psionics alone much less whetever else is in it.
How dare you make an on-topic post that actually discusses the product!
In seriousness... There's been some debate over the merits of the way psionics were implemented in this book. Psionic characters don't have encounter powers. Instead they have a bank of power points that resets every encounter that they can use to enhance their at-will powers for nifty or more-powerful effects.
The debate comes into play because one of the benefits of the 4e system was that the powers mechanic could be used to reflect a variety of power sources without having to reinvent the mechanic each time. Psionics could have been the same, but instead they changed it. Some people like that, and point to other differences in the mechanics of various power sources as precedent, while other people aren't as pleased with it.
For me personally, I think they easily could have introduced psionics without changing mechanics and that would have worked fine, but having played with psionic characters, they tend to be interesting and not broken, so it seems to be working out pretty well.
There's been some debate over the merits of the way psionics were implemented in this book. Psionic characters don't have encounter powers. Instead they have a bank of power points that resets every encounter that they can use to enhance their at-will powers for nifty or more-powerful effects.
The debate comes into play because one of the benefits of the 4e system was that the powers mechanic could be used to reflect a variety of power sources without having to reinvent the mechanic each time. Psionics could have been the same, but instead they changed it. Some people like that, and point to other differences in the mechanics of various power sources as precedent, while other people aren't as pleased with it.
For me personally, I think they easily could have introduced psionics without changing mechanics and that would have worked fine, but having played with psionic characters, they tend to be interesting and not broken, so it seems to be working out pretty well.
Thanks for responding. Not being as familiar with 4e mechanics, I was wondering how they were proceeding because of the issues we have on this side about whether to stick with the 3.5 PP system or revert to Vancian style.
I'm over the edition wars as well, each camp rests firmly on their own soil, seige laid to each other...there are various runners, and a strange border town has grown up betwixt the two which is an mixture of both camps...
Let the uneasy peace remain...
It seems to me that whether or not a continuation of the edition war is warranted this is just about the worst place to have at it if you care about Paizo.
Paizo derives some significant sum of their revenue from their online store - anything that causes potential customers to not buy product from their store is not doing them any favours.
Let me put it this way - if a ton of 4E players were buying their 4E material from Paizo that money would translate into more and better Pathfinder products and will mean that they can afford to give James a padded room with a nice view when he finally cracks under the work load.
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OK People. I didn't intend to start an edition war or anything else for that matter. My apologies if I upset people here, it was certainly not my intention and yes you are right I didn't go back and read any of the earlier posts on this issue. My bad.
If my comments were considered inflammatory then by all means remove the original post. I guess I let my enthusiasm for discovering Paizo and its commitment to 3.5 overcome my usual reserve.
I am not a troll and I have no intention of trolling your forums and that I upset so many devoted RPGers by my comments saddens me deeply.
I have been running D&D games for a heck of a long time and would ask if you could point me towards more up-to-date discussion threads, so that I can hopefully redeem myself.
As for the comments about my lack of computer savvy I'll say just this. I have been a software developer for many years. I run websites and write software and am very up to speed with all the modern techs.
It was my laziness for not reading earlier threads that led to this to which as I will re-iterate I am sorry. Kind regards to all.
And a better alias would probably help your path toward redemption. ;)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Hey filthypete,
Sorry for giving you a hard time, we've just had a lot of edition wars here, and your post risked bringing them up again. Your response shows a lot of character, and you're cool in my book. It's probably best just to avoid 4e discussions and focus on PFRPG in all it's glory. That's really what brings us here, and you'll find a wealth of information and assistance regarding that topic.
Oh, and welcome to Paizo.
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And a better alias would probably help your path toward redemption. ;)
Alas its been my alias ever since I started playing Quake and Unreal Tournament. But you're right I can see it not being the most endearing of names. My real name isn't Pete after all, so I'll think about changing it. Suggestions welcome. Printable ones anyway ;)
Nah. Just nuke it from the sky, Ross.
It's the only way to be sure.
Ahem. While I'm not a big fan of 4E, I do have to say that their business model/book concepts (XX 2, XX 3, XX etc.) has something to it (not that I'm recommending PF to do the same thing). What are the most used/most loved/most hated (and therefore interesting) books from 3.5? For me and my group, I'd have to say the Complete series and similar books (like the Races of series). They wanted more options, more choices, more spells, more powers, more feats, more well, whatever. Yes, it bloated. Yes, it wasn't all perfect. But they sold.
With the way the powers are built, it's hard (very hard) for them to stack or combine in unimaginably devious combinations (if you can only use one a round, and they don't last much longer than one round, they won't pile up). So, they can always add more powers (that may or may not be just re-named versions of the same thing (i.e. deal X damage of Y type and maybe a little bonus thrown in, and yes, I'm over simplifying). And since you can't multi-class (in any true sense of the awkward compound word), more classes mean more chances to find one that fits your concept. So more books is a good thing. It means that folks get more races, more classes, more powers. And they can even buy cards that have the powers printed on them again!
This wouldn't have worked quite as well with 3.5 (which bloated their word count tremendously too in the complete books -- did we really need to duplicate the descriptions of every prestige class power one or two pages later in the 'helpful' example character?). But with the way 4E works, it's fairly a genius method to keep the books interesting and appealing. Even if they don't have very much in the way of flavor/fluff. Heck, if I liked 4E, I'd be thrilled and very broke. It's a way of giving many people what they wanted.
As it is, I find I much prefer PF and their attitude toward the whole thing, and I'm very broke.
A new invitation for an edition war.<facepalm>
I apologize, this was not meant to be an edition war. As I said, I was truthfully admiring the way that they put out books. Within the context, and if you like 4E's style, it's probably a good idea, as well as pointing out how it was a logical extension of what people shopped for in 3.5.
Hey, as far as I'm concerned, there's no edition war any more. The borders have been hashed out, the troops have gone home and we can visit each other occasionally and marvel at the different cultures we meet. Thankfully, people can move freely from one to the other, and even back to 2E and 1E land.
Although, to be honest, I did toss in one or two jabs. But I tried to call myself out and be fair in both directions.
And a better alias would probably help your path toward redemption. ;)Alas its been my alias ever since I started playing Quake and Unreal Tournament. But you're right I can see it not being the most endearing of names. My real name isn't Pete after all, so I'll think about changing it. Suggestions welcome. Printable ones anyway ;)
Well, it looks like you're busily looking for an avatar, which is a good start. :D As for your alias ... you have up to 10 posts you can make before you are stuck with the one you have. Maybe you can just formalize as Filthy Pete and be a swashbuckling pirate (and how's that for a stereotype?).
EDIT: At the time I'm responding, you've made 4 posts on Paizo.
Yes looking for an alias and completed. Using Marcus Aurelius the last of Rome's great emperors.
Any Good? I tried to use an avatar that few people are using so as not to cause more offense. :)
An excellent choice. Renown philosopher as well. You've got my redemption. :-D Welcome aboard!
Don't worry about what avatar you use or don't use. There's at least three others that use the same one I do that posts semi-regularly.
Yes looking for an alias and completed. Using Marcus Aurelius the last of Rome's great emperors.
Any Good? I tried to use an avatar that few people are using so as not to cause more offense. :)
It is ok. I offend easily. So you are SOL in that area! ~grins~
I vote that we burn him. Who is voting for a good old hanging? ~grins and runs~
I vote that we burn him. Who is voting for a good old hanging? ~grins and runs~
Hm. While you do that, I'll grab his stuff? Ok.
;)
Yes looking for an alias and completed. Using Marcus Aurelius the last of Rome's great emperors.
Any Good? I tried to use an avatar that few people are using so as not to cause more offense. :)
By the way, welcome to the Paizo boards. I hope that you enjoy your stay.
ThanksBy the way, welcome to the Paizo boards. I hope that you enjoy your stay.
Welcome! *offers cookies*
Oh well, I don't often browse Website Feedback these days, but welcome to the boards and please be aware that the word smurf does that to your avatar (or at least picks from a random selection of smurf images - unless you happen to be Kobold Cleaver) even if you don't normally have an avatar.
Ahh..ok got it..Psionics in every other edition used a mechanic totally divorced from the rest of the game and 4E continues that tradition.
Nice to see some things never change...like war..war never changes.
I vote that we burn him. Who is voting for a good old hanging? ~grins and runs~
Build a bridge oot of 'im!
Ahh..ok got it..Psionics in every other edition used a mechanic totally divorced from the rest of the game and 4E continues that tradition.
There's a lot of the book I haven't checked out yet, but I've heard the psionics was interesting. Personally, I played an anti-civilization seeker during out playtest and avoided the psionics due to time limitations since I was getting ready for ConnCon.
Now I'm getting ready for next week's epic game, so I probably won't dip back into my 4e stuff for a couple weeks.
Well, I would have welcomed Filthy Pete yesterday. So today, Welcome, Marcus Aurelius. You can always keep "Filthy Pete" as your pirate alias. As you can see from my profile, some of us like to keep a few spare aliases around for posting fun.
Marcus Aurelius should check out Spes Magna Games' newsletter, since he loves the game and Roman stuff.
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Well, I would have welcomed Filthy Pete yesterday. So today, Welcome, Marcus Aurelius. You can always keep "Filthy Pete" as your pirate alias. As you can see from my profile, some of us like to keep a few spare aliases around for posting fun.
Thanks Mairkurion {tm}
I wasn't aware that you could keep spare aliases, but Filthy Pete the pirate sounds kid of fun. Loved the "Dread Pirate" prestige class in Wizard's 3.5 "Song and Silence" sourcebook. Never got to play it though, spent most of my time GMing :(
Try this.
Well, I would have welcomed Filthy Pete yesterday. So today, Welcome, Marcus Aurelius. You can always keep "Filthy Pete" as your pirate alias. As you can see from my profile, some of us like to keep a few spare aliases around for posting fun.Thanks Mairkurion {tm}
I wasn't aware that you could keep spare aliases, but Filthy Pete the pirate sounds kid of fun. Loved the "Dread Pirate" prestige class in Wizard's 3.5 "Song and Silence" sourcebook. Never got to play it though, spent most of my time GMing :(
You could join a PBP (Play By Post) and play your pirate.