Pathfinder Adventure Path #180: The Smoking Gun (Outlaws of Alkenstar 3 of 3)

Announced for June! Product image and description are not final and may be subject to change.

Just going off the descriptions, this AP sounds like a real delight! Here’s hoping it sticks the landing.

Looks pretty awesome!

This sounds really good

I see that this starts at lvl 8, what level does it end at?

I see that this starts at lvl 8, what level does it end at?

I believe it is a 1-10, just like Abomination Vaults and Quest for the Frozen Flame.

Hmm, Deputy Loveless looks cooler here than in first book. I'm not sure why exactly.

With the preview in book 1, I’m really, really curious to understand the antagonists’ motivation in this one.

I love Seoni (and that's snazzy art, especially of Loveless), but that cover really sums up how the whole "City that doesn't rely on magic" thing was discarded for this AP.

It was hardly discarded, but was definitely altered. They realized placing an AP in a region that was completely devoid of magic would isolate half the player base who prefer to play spellcasters. So now, magic works, albeit it is very unstable. As such, Alkenstar still doesn't rely on magic to survive. But they aren't explicitly prevented from trying to utilize it, at their own risk. This is mostly done by scholars and spellscasters who are attempting to understand and potentially reverse the phenomenon.

BTW, this is specifically a "this AP only" thing. Basically, you play during an unusually calm time there, with only a few mishap. This is not a retcon in the setting, and all books mentioning this place will continue talking about the instable magic.

Considering that I have seen way more people asking if they can still play casters in that AP (and being happy with the answer being "yes") than people sad that they can, I think overall it was a good decision.

(Personally, I would have prefereed if it was 100% no magic, but I understand the choices they made and still really want to play this adventure.)

Um, just got my copy of this and am really concerned about the whitewashing of a key character

Um, just got my copy of this and am really concerned about the whitewashing of a key character

** spoiler omitted **

That’s incredibly frustrating if so. Alkenstar has long had an issue of its populace looking much whiter than they have any real reason to, but retconning an established NPC like that is a real kick in the shorts.

EDIT: Peeked at a friend’s copy and yup, that’s a very pale, redheaded, light-eyed Trietta. It doesn’t look like the same person in LOWG at all. Alkenstar is roughly where Ethiopia is on a real-world map, but too many artists see “steampunk Wild West” and toss the Garund part of the equation in the trash.

At Gen Con last year, talk about this AP included a mention of Mana Wastes rules coming in Lost Omens: The Impossible Lands - a book that hadn’t been announced yet, but that we now know is coming. It’s easier to write an AP and say “if you wanna be lore-compliant, use the rules in this upcoming lore book” than it is to say that over half the classes in the game are barred from three months worth of releases.

It’s not how I would’ve done it, but I see how they got there.

For those that got a book early, what are the clockwork creatures at the back matter? I am running a 1e AP converted to 2e and am hoping for the clockwork golem (kinda redundant conceptually imo) or clockwork angel

For those that got a book early, what are the clockwork creatures at the back matter? I am running a 1e AP converted to 2e and am hoping for the clockwork golem (kinda redundant conceptually imo) or clockwork angel

Neither of those are in the book. There’s the Clockwork Buccaneer and the Clockwork Puppeteer.

silversarcasm wrote:

Um, just got my copy of this and am really concerned about the whitewashing of a key character

** spoiler omitted **

That’s incredibly frustrating if so. Alkenstar has long had an issue of its populace looking much whiter than they have any real reason to, but retconning an established NPC like that is a real kick in the shorts.

EDIT: Peeked at a friend’s copy and yup, that’s a very pale, redheaded, light-eyed Trietta. It doesn’t look like the same person in LOWG at all. Alkenstar is roughly where Ethiopia is on a real-world map, but too many artists see “steampunk Wild West” and toss the Garund part of the equation in the trash.

Hate to see it happen when staff forget both character already having art and geographical context

keftiu wrote:

silversarcasm wrote:

Um, just got my copy of this and am really concerned about the whitewashing of a key character

** spoiler omitted **

That’s incredibly frustrating if so. Alkenstar has long had an issue of its populace looking much whiter than they have any real reason to, but retconning an established NPC like that is a real kick in the shorts.

EDIT: Peeked at a friend’s copy and yup, that’s a very pale, redheaded, light-eyed Trietta. It doesn’t look like the same person in LOWG at all. Alkenstar is roughly where Ethiopia is on a real-world map, but too many artists see “steampunk Wild West” and toss the Garund part of the equation in the trash.

Hate to see it happen when staff forget both character already having art and geographical context

I rememeber a stream a couple years ago at PaizoCon with Eric Mona explaining that sometimes, they asks for specific skin colors in art, and don't get what they want. So at one point, they started sending "skin color palette" to have exact skin colors, and found out that, weirdly, they had even MORE wrongly skinned characters. :(

Hmm I wonder if that could be matter of "screen lightning" (like with that dress people argue if its white or blue gold) but not sure what kind of screen settings you would need to mix dark and light palettes

It’s easier to write an AP and say “if you wanna be lore-compliant, use the rules in this upcoming lore book” than it is to say that over half the classes in the game are barred from three months worth of releases.

It’s not how I would’ve done it, but I see how they got there.

Thankfully, nobody has proposed banning certain classes from being played in Outlaws of Alkenstar. But if I bought the Archery Contest adventure for Pathfinder, one would at least think whoever wrote it might spare a thought for what to do with all the characters that don't have martial proficiency.

As for the "Pay us 55/75$ now, and we'll give you the rules on how to run this AP properly nine months later" approach -- I'm not a fan of that either.

keftiu wrote:

It’s easier to write an AP and say “if you wanna be lore-compliant, use the rules in this upcoming lore book” than it is to say that over half the classes in the game are barred from three months worth of releases.

It’s not how I would’ve done it, but I see how they got there.

Thankfully, nobody has proposed banning certain classes from being played in Outlaws of Alkenstar. But if I bought the Archery Contest adventure for Pathfinder, one would at least think whoever wrote it might spare a thought for what to do with all the characters that don't have martial proficiency.

As for the "Pay us 55/75$ now, and we'll give you the rules on how to run this AP properly nine months later" approach -- I'm not a fan of that either.

The problem with including Magic is Screwy in Alkenstar Rules in an AP somewhat multifaceted.

silversarcasm wrote:

Um, just got my copy of this and am really concerned about the whitewashing of a key character

** spoiler omitted **

That’s incredibly frustrating if so. Alkenstar has long had an issue of its populace looking much whiter than they have any real reason to, but retconning an established NPC like that is a real kick in the shorts.

EDIT: Peeked at a friend’s copy and yup, that’s a very pale, redheaded, light-eyed Trietta. It doesn’t look like the same person in LOWG at all. Alkenstar is roughly where Ethiopia is on a real-world map, but too many artists see “steampunk Wild West” and toss the Garund part of the equation in the trash.

I'd argue it's closer to where northern Sudan would be, but...yeah, there definitely does seem to be a weird trend of forgetting that the Wastes are supposed to be in fantasy counterpart Africa.

(there's a bit of that with the Shackles too, but it's a little more justified given that those islands have people from all over and it was initially settled by Chelaxians, kind of like Cape Verde)

** spoiler omitted **

That and the Aftermath Feat are real treats.

Anyone know when the Foundry VTT version of this will be released?

Currently running Book 1 and having a frikken blast!

Anyone know when the Foundry VTT version of this will be released?

Currently running Book 1 and having a frikken blast!

Presumably on or after the release date.

Reebo Kesh wrote:

Anyone know when the Foundry VTT version of this will be released?

Currently running Book 1 and having a frikken blast!

Presumably on or after the release date.

Looking forward to it. Thanks

It is absolutely ridiculous that we have three adventures set in Alkenstar without a gazetteer for Alkenstar.

It is absolutely ridiculous that we have three adventures set in Alkenstar without a gazetteer for Alkenstar.

Do you want the one published in Guns & Gears, or the writeup we’ll inevitably get in Lost Omens: The Impossible Lands?

captain yesterday wrote:

It is absolutely ridiculous that we have three adventures set in Alkenstar without a gazetteer for Alkenstar.

Do you want the one published in Guns & Gears, or the writeup we’ll inevitably get in Lost Omens: The Impossible Lands?

I was pretty specific for what I was asking for. Don't be obtuse.

It's pretty shitty to have the map in one product and the gazetteer in another.

You don't buy a TV and then buy a DVD player for the instructions for using the TV.

If you don't like my opinion too bad, I'm merely providing feedback to paizo on how they can improve in the future (and certainly not to you).

keftiu wrote:

captain yesterday wrote:

It is absolutely ridiculous that we have three adventures set in Alkenstar without a gazetteer for Alkenstar.

Do you want the one published in Guns & Gears, or the writeup we’ll inevitably get in Lost Omens: The Impossible Lands?

I was pretty specific for what I was asking for. Don't be obtuse.

It's pretty s$~!ty to have the map in one product and the gazetteer in another.

You don't buy a TV and then buy a DVD player for the instructions for using the TV.

If you don't like my opinion too bad, I'm merely providing feedback to paizo on how they can improve in the future (and certainly not to you).

I have autism and genuinely don’t understand where this hostility is coming from. I was offering you two sources of information that might help you.

captain yesterday wrote:

keftiu wrote:

captain yesterday wrote:

It is absolutely ridiculous that we have three adventures set in Alkenstar without a gazetteer for Alkenstar.

Do you want the one published in Guns & Gears, or the writeup we’ll inevitably get in Lost Omens: The Impossible Lands?

I was pretty specific for what I was asking for. Don't be obtuse.

It's pretty s$~!ty to have the map in one product and the gazetteer in another.

You don't buy a TV and then buy a DVD player for the instructions for using the TV.

If you don't like my opinion too bad, I'm merely providing feedback to paizo on how they can improve in the future (and certainly not to you).

I have autism and genuinely don’t understand where this hostility is coming from. I was offering you two sources of information that might help you.

Perhaps then you need to reread your answer.

I stand by what I said.

So you stand by needlessly acting like an ass?

If the frustration is that there’s not an Alkenstar gazteer in the AP itself, then that’s understandable, but certainly has precedent - Outlaws of Alkenstar and Strength of Thousands both assumed you would be assuming their respective Lost Omens books if you needed more setting info.

The Gazetteer for Natambu (Strength of Thousands) is 14 pages in Lost Omens: The Mwangi Expanse. AP volumes get 18 pages of back-matter. So what exactly do you propose cutting from the AP to fit in a 14-page gazetteer that is already planned to be published in another book? Frankly, I'd rather have 18 pages of material that I won't be paying for two different times than 14 pages of repeated material.

There's a gazetteer in the PF1 module Wardens of the Reborn Forge, granted that module came out like 8-9 years ago.
It does seem odd not to have one in book-1 since all 3 books take part there to some extent, it could be marketing to get you to buy more books, or probably just not enough space to include it, or no freelancers available that they trust to get the city written up to their satisfaction.

If the frustration is that there’s not an Alkenstar gazteer in the AP itself, then that’s understandable, but certainly has precedent - Outlaws of Alkenstar and Strength of Thousands both assumed you would be assuming their respective Lost Omens books if you needed more setting info.

I said Outlaws of Alkenstar here where I meant to say Agents of Edgewatch. Apologies for any confusion.

Paizo has started to publish hardcover setting books and APs that dive into them. But they are not released in that order. This implies that customers should wait to play an adventure until all the support materials are available. I understand how this is sub-optimal. I imagine Mr. Mona and the editorial team already see this and do that best they can, but I'll take the note for planning future releases in the years to come. Thanks for the input.

I've been on vacation so just got my hands on my physical copy, but the white redheaded Duchess Trietta Ricia is really disappointing, expecially since we already have art for this person. The adventure itself is good, I plan to run it, but that's something Paizo should be being extra careful about--and the artists, too.

It's been suggested in this thread that Paizo has had trouble getting the skin tones they asked from from their artists--if true, and especially if the error always/usually trends towards lighter skin tones, Paizo should maybe stop contracting with those artists. I understand that deadlines are what they are, and I'm not an artist myself, but it can't possibly be that difficult to draw a brown woman instead of a white one.

Paizo has started to publish hardcover setting books and APs that dive into them. But they are not released in that order. This implies that customers should wait to play an adventure until all the support materials are available. I understand how this is sub-optimal. I imagine Mr. Mona and the editorial team already see this and do that best they can, but I'll take the note for planning future releases in the years to come. Thanks for the input.

The problem is you have the map in the AP and the setting material in a completely different book. I hope you understand how this is also suboptimal.

Okay, but again, what would you cut from the AP book to make room for the setting material?

Aaron Shanks wrote:

Paizo has started to publish hardcover setting books and APs that dive into them. But they are not released in that order. This implies that customers should wait to play an adventure until all the support materials are available. I understand how this is sub-optimal. I imagine Mr. Mona and the editorial team already see this and do that best they can, but I'll take the note for planning future releases in the years to come. Thanks for the input.

The problem is you have the map in the AP and the setting material in a completely different book. I hope you understand how this is also suboptimal.

Oh I see. Paizo decided to create a gazetteer of the salon rather than the town. It was a design choice to use limited page resources in that way.

I've been on vacation so just got my hands on my physical copy, but the white redheaded Duchess Trietta Ricia is really disappointing, expecially since we already have art for this person. The adventure itself is good, I plan to run it, but that's something Paizo should be being extra careful about--and the artists, too.

It's been suggested in this thread that Paizo has had trouble getting the skin tones they asked from from their artists--if true, and especially if the error always/usually trends towards lighter skin tones, Paizo should maybe stop contracting with those artists. I understand that deadlines are what they are, and I'm not an artist myself, but it can't possibly be that difficult to draw a brown woman instead of a white one.

I once saw a drawing of a black woman that was actually the drawing of a white woman with black skin colors. Not good IMO.

But yes, there are artists out there who are very good at drawing African features.

Yeah if that’s a repeated issue, find new artists. Not hard as many would think.

Aaron Shanks wrote:

Paizo has started to publish hardcover setting books and APs that dive into them. But they are not released in that order. This implies that customers should wait to play an adventure until all the support materials are available. I understand how this is sub-optimal. I imagine Mr. Mona and the editorial team already see this and do that best they can, but I'll take the note for planning future releases in the years to come. Thanks for the input.

The problem is you have the map in the AP and the setting material in a completely different book. I hope you understand how this is also suboptimal.

You mean like how it’s always been done, back in 3.5 where you had the Adventure Path line and the Chronicles/Campaign Setting line?

I think it is important to remember that the setting material isn't exclusive to the adventures; rather, the adventures are exclusive to the setting material. While yes, it is a bit of a buzz kill to have to wait on a setting book, they aren't explicitly necessary to run the adventures themselves. They present what information is needed within the adventures themselves. Anything outside of that is really just a bonus imo.

Based on what I've read of book 2 and what I'm hearing about this one I'm probably just gonna take my players off rails once they finish book one in a week or two. I think there are probably enough plot threads to weave something together.

Based on what I've read of book 2 and what I'm hearing about this one I'm probably just gonna take my players off rails once they finish book one in a week or two. I think there are probably enough plot threads to weave something together.

I have to admit I’m pretty underwhelmed by Outlaws of Alkenstar, and it breaks my heart.

keftiu wrote:

Reebo Kesh wrote:

Anyone know when the Foundry VTT version of this will be released?

Currently running Book 1 and having a frikken blast!

Presumably on or after the release date.

Looking forward to it. Thanks

I think it comes out same time as the PDF does on this site. The others did.

captain yesterday wrote:

Aaron Shanks wrote:

Paizo has started to publish hardcover setting books and APs that dive into them. But they are not released in that order. This implies that customers should wait to play an adventure until all the support materials are available. I understand how this is sub-optimal. I imagine Mr. Mona and the editorial team already see this and do that best they can, but I'll take the note for planning future releases in the years to come. Thanks for the input.

The problem is you have the map in the AP and the setting material in a completely different book. I hope you understand how this is also suboptimal.

You mean like how it’s always been done, back in 3.5 where you had the Adventure Path line and the Chronicles/Campaign Setting line?

No. They never had the map for a place in one book and the gazetteer for it in a completely different book in a completely different line (for example for Mummy's Mask or Iron Gods they had a book about the region come out at the same time but you still had gazetteers and maps for Wati and Tephu (Mummy's Mask) and Torch, Iadenveigh, and Starfall (Iron Gods).

And, they were waaaay better at timing releases for the campaign setting line and the AP line.