Looking for help with a Tiefling Rogue

I am fairly new to PFS. I have only been playing a few months. I am looking to build a rogue and looking to use the Tiefling race. I have read the guides (some of them) and advice threads (some more) and know that the human race is preferred by most. I want a more mysterious appearance. I am also conflicted on the style of play. I want to be able to help the party by scouting ahead, but still be able to contribute to combat (TWF?). Here is what I have so far.

Darcos Nightshade
Male Tiefling Rogue (Scout) 1
CN Medium outsider (native)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +5
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 18, touch 15, flat-footed 13 (+2 armor, +5 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 11 (1d8+3)
Fort +2, Ref +7, Will +1
Resist cold 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee dagger +5 (1d4+1/19-20) and
dagger +5 (1d4+1/19-20) and
morningstar +1 (1d8+1) and
shortsword +5 (1d6+1/19-20)
Special Attacks sneak attack +1d6
Tiefling Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st; concentration -2)
1/day—darkness
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 20, Con 15, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 5
Base Atk +0; CMB +1; CMD 16
Feats Weapon Finesse
Traits reactionary, sacred touch
Skills Disable Device +10, Escape Artist +9, Knowledge (local) +3, Perception +5 (+6 to locate traps), Sense Motive +5, Sleight of Hand +9, Stealth +9
Languages Abyssal, Common
SQ fiendish sprinter, prehensile tail, trapfinding +1
Other Gear leather armor, dagger, dagger, morningstar, shortsword, backpack, masterwork, belt pouch, grappling hook, rope, thieves' tools, 35 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Fiendish Sprinter 10-ft speed bonus when using charge, run or withdraw.
Prehensile Tail Your tail can retrieve small objects on your person as a swift action.
Sacred Touch You were exposed to a potent source of positive energy as a child, perhaps by being born under the right cosmic sign, or maybe because one of your parents was a gifted healer. As a standard action, you may automatically stabilize a dying creature mer
Sneak Attack +1d6 +1d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trapfinding +1 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.

Thanks in advance.

Tiefling's a fairly solid race, just in general, as well as for Rogue specifically.

That said, and this is basically obligatory, have you considered the Slayer class? It does what you seem to be aiming for (low-charisma combat Rogue) flat-out better than the Rogue class does, and is PFS legal to boot.

Lose the morning star and use light mace. You can use weapon finesse with it. Higher to hit will likely outweigh the extra 2 potential damage. just my 2cp....

Lose the morning star and use light mace. You can use weapon finesse with it. Higher to hit will likely outweigh the extra 2 potential damage. just my 2cp....

This is good advice. You can also make the short sword Cold Iron and the light mace Silvered and still come in under budget. I'd definitely do that, given the relative cost/benefit analysis. Grab a sling as well (for now) and buy a bow after your first scenario. Having ranged and material overcoming DR options is always a good plan.

Also consider getting a longspear. That way you can flank from behind a fighter and still get sneak attack due to reach. I used this to some effect with one of my rogues. The sling is a good idea too...for the first level or so....bows are cost prohibitive early on.

This thread here has a lot of rogue builds and general theory lodged in 39-or-so pages of its entirety.

A couple of general considerations as you level up are:
How are you going to reliably sneak attack? Scout means you can when you charge/move, but how do you gain it on full attacks? Improved Two-weapon feint, Moonlight Stalker Feint, Shatter defenses and several other ways can give you more options.
How do you improve your defenses? Rogues are squishy and have poor saves. Some things like Offensive Defense can be very useful, as can gear or feats like Iron Will.

To OP, does it have to be the rogue class?
As others mentioned slayer may be probably closer to what you are looking for...or even core ranger.

What are the main criteria for your class selection?

Longer term options
Would fiendsight1 and 2(see in darkness) be in your future?
Being unchained by sight range is useful to creatures of the night
Are you seeking to use dispelling strike and pressure points as debuffs?
A precursor is minor magic (acid splash) and major magic (true strike)
Listed spells are just my suggestion feel free to use others
Consider gang up to increase position options.

A fellow Rogue enthusiast

Tiefling's a fairly solid race, just in general, as well as for Rogue specifically.

That said, and this is basically obligatory, have you considered the Slayer class? It does what you seem to be aiming for (low-charisma combat Rogue) flat-out better than the Rogue class does, and is PFS legal to boot.

I have not considered the Slayer class. I actually don't know much about it. I will check it out.

FYI ... I am only using the Core Rulebook, APG and ARG with Hero Lab right now if that makes a difference.

Also consider getting a longspear. That way you can flank from behind a fighter and still get sneak attack due to reach. I used this to some effect with one of my rogues. The sling is a good idea too...for the first level or so....bows are cost prohibitive early on.

Thanks for the advice! The weapon advice makes sense. The research I have done has been utilizing shortswords with TWF feat to try to maximize damage with flanking and sneak attack. I will lean on this excuse, but it is valid ... I am new to RPGs and PFS so I am still learning the details.

This thread here has a lot of rogue builds and general theory lodged in 39-or-so pages of its entirety.

A couple of general considerations as you level up are:
How are you going to reliably sneak attack? Scout means you can when you charge/move, but how do you gain it on full attacks? Improved Two-weapon feint, Moonlight Stalker Feint, Shatter defenses and several other ways can give you more options.
How do you improve your defenses? Rogues are squishy and have poor saves. Some things like Offensive Defense can be very useful, as can gear or feats like Iron Will.

Thanks for the link (I had not read that one) and information. Some very good things to consider. My previous Rogue (died valiantly in battle due to his player making a stupid mistake) relied mostly on fellow party members to establish flanking and surprise rounds to gain the sneak attack.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Tiefling's a fairly solid race, just in general, as well as for Rogue specifically.

That said, and this is basically obligatory, have you considered the Slayer class? It does what you seem to be aiming for (low-charisma combat Rogue) flat-out better than the Rogue class does, and is PFS legal to boot.

I have not considered the Slayer class. I actually don't know much about it. I will check it out.

FYI ... I am only using the Core Rulebook, APG and ARG with Hero Lab right now if that makes a difference.

It's from the ARG playtest. So that seems workable.

To OP, does it have to be the rogue class?

As others mentioned slayer may be probably closer to what you are looking for...or even core ranger.

What are the main criteria for your class selection?

It doesn't have to be a rogue. My pick is a mix of mostly lack of experience and knowledge combined with a real desire to be the guy in the shadows. I want to be the stealth of the party that scouts ahead to disable those pesky traps before the party triggers them and/or gets into an advantage position to attack with the party frontline.

Longer term options

Would fiendsight1 and 2(see in darkness) be in your future?
Being unchained by sight range is useful to creatures of the night
Are you seeking to use dispelling strike and pressure points as debuffs?
A precursor is minor magic (acid splash) and major magic (true strike)
Listed spells are just my suggestion feel free to use others
Consider gang up to increase position options.

A fellow Rogue enthusiast

I'll be honest. I am slightly lost on your advice, but I will definitely research it. Are you suggesting a multiclass level in a spell caster at some point?

EDIT: Nevermind. I figured it out. I wasn't considering the Major and Minor magic talents because my intelligence isn't high enough to gain them.

Thanks for the input.

poppy_thompson wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Tiefling's a fairly solid race, just in general, as well as for Rogue specifically.

That said, and this is basically obligatory, have you considered the Slayer class? It does what you seem to be aiming for (low-charisma combat Rogue) flat-out better than the Rogue class does, and is PFS legal to boot.

I have not considered the Slayer class. I actually don't know much about it. I will check it out.

FYI ... I am only using the Core Rulebook, APG and ARG with Hero Lab right now if that makes a difference.

It's from the ARG playtest. So that seems workable.

Sorry, not trying to be snarky, but did you mean the Advanced Class Guide?

Edit: Found it. This sounds very appealing. Thanks.

There's a feat that will let Tieflings use Darkness 3x/day instead of 1x/day. All rogues should find that very useful. There's a reason why every ranger's first favored enemy is human, and it means that a lot of your enemies won't have darkvision. As such, getting concealment or total concealment will be a huge benefit, even giving you reliable ranged sneak attack damage when it works. Just be sure to get far enough away from the rest of the party first.

Also, it can save your ass when stealthing to scout ahead. If you get noticed, you can drop Darkness to slow them as they're chasing after you while you get away at full speed to rejoin the rest of your party, etc.

I'm also a big fan of the Blinding Sneak Attack feat. It only triggers blindness for 1 round per hit, but they're probably not going to make that Fort save, and this feat only requires you to be standing in a Darkness effect so it works whether the enemies have darkvision or not.

Sorry, not trying to be snarky, but did you mean the Advanced Class Guide?

Edit: Found it. This sounds very appealing. Thanks.

Shit, yes. Damn use of initials confusing things...

And you're very welcome.

Looks like there are a lot of options I didn't consider for one reason or another. I am at work and therefore can't make adjustments to my build to post for additional feedback anytime soon. When I make the adjustments, I'll post it and try to explain my plan through 12th level.

Darcos Nightshade
Male Tiefling Rogue (Scout, Spy) 1
CN Medium outsider (native)
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +4
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 17, touch 14, flat-footed 13 (+2 armor, +4 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 11 (1d8+3)
Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +0
Resist cold 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee cold iron longspear +2 (1d8+3/×3) and
cold iron shortshort +4 (1d6+2/19-20) and
silver mace +4 (1d6+2)
Ranged sling +4 (1d4+2)
Special Attacks sneak attack +1d6
Tiefling Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st; concentration +1)
1/day—darkness
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +0; CMB +2; CMD 16
Feats Weapon Finesse
Traits reactionary, sacred touch
Skills Acrobatics +8, Bluff +4 (+5 on opposed rolls to attempt to deceive someone (does not apply to feint attempts or attempts to pass secret messages)), Disable Device +8, Perception +4, Sense Motive +4, Sleight of Hand +8, Stealth +8; Racial Modifiers skilled liar
Languages Abyssal, Common
SQ fiendish sprinter, prehensile tail
Other Gear leather armor, cold iron longspear, cold iron shortshort, silver mace, sling, sling bullets (20), backpack, masterwork, belt pouch, grappling hook, rope, thieves' tools, 1 gp, 8 sp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Fiendish Sprinter 10-ft speed bonus when using charge, run or withdraw.
Prehensile Tail Your tail can retrieve small objects on your person as a swift action.
Sacred Touch You were exposed to a potent source of positive energy as a child, perhaps by being born under the right cosmic sign, or maybe because one of your parents was a gifted healer. As a standard action, you may automatically stabilize a dying creature mer
Skilled Liar +1 (Ex) +1 Bluff to Deceive
Sneak Attack +1d6 +1d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.

1. Toughness, Sneak Attack 1d6, Skilled Liar
2. Evasion, Finesse Rogue
3. Two-Handed Fighting
4. Weapon Training(Shortsword, +1 Dex.

Well, I only got to fourth level tonight. Maybe I will be able to plan the rest tomorrow. Thoughts?

There's a feat that will let Tieflings use Darkness 3x/day instead of 1x/day. All rogues should find that very useful.

I can't find that feat right now.

Fiendish Darkness
You can use your darkness spell-like ability more often.
Prerequisites: Darkness spell-like ability, tiefling.
Benefit: You can use darkness three times per day as a spell-like ability.
Normal: Tieflings can use darkness once per day as a spell-like ability.

You can find it in Blood of Fiends.

I'm also a big fan of the Blinding Sneak Attack feat. It only triggers blindness for 1 round per hit, but they're probably not going to make that Fort save, and this feat only requires you to be standing in a Darkness effect so it works whether the enemies have darkvision or not.

Yeah, it's one of the few rogue/SA-specific feats that's actually good. I also highly recommend it. Not as keen on the 3/day darkness, 1/day is usually enough, it lasts a while.

Darkness is an emanation that alters the brightness level by one degree, going from normal to dim or from dim to dark, etc. As such, you may need it more than once to go from normal to dark and gain the benefits of total concealment. Also, you can generally expect to have three encounters per scenario in PFS.

I didn't think you could stack the spell with itself like that...

In any case, apparently paizo nerfed the duration of darkness from 10 min/level in D&D 3.5 to 1 min/level in PF, I didn't realize that. Not sure why they thought it was overpowered, but whatever, I guess the 3/day is useful.

Each casting is a separate emanation, like a darkness lightbulb. Just like two lightbulbs will make an area even brighter, two objects with Darkness cast upon them will make an area darker if those areas are overlapping. At least, that's always been my understanding.

Recommend drop sacred touch trait and replace with indomitable faith to boost that will save.

Fiendish Darkness

You can use your darkness spell-like ability more often.
Prerequisites: Darkness spell-like ability, tiefling.
Benefit: You can use darkness three times per day as a spell-like ability.
Normal: Tieflings can use darkness once per day as a spell-like ability.

You can find it in Blood of Fiends.

Thanks. But, would you recommend taking that in place of the typical early rogue feats? In other words, when would you suggest taking that feat?

Recommend drop sacred touch trait and replace with indomitable faith to boost that will save.

Fair point. This character wouldn't be too concerned about fallen party members as much as a Silver Crusade Paladin. It has come in handy a few times to stabilize an enemy after a battle for questioning.

Thanks again everyone for you input. It is helpful for me to vet out how I want this character to play out. Also still looking at the Slayer build.

You won't be able to pick up Blinding Sneak Attack until at least 7th level since it requires a +5 base attack bonus as a prerequisite so I would recommend taking it before then. I generally take it as early as possible. If you're planning to be a ranged rogue, then I might take it at first level so you can make ranged sneak attacks from relative safety inside your own magical darkness. For melee, you'll obviously need other feats first like Weapon Finesse, but I would still take it at 3rd or 5th. It can be a save your ass power, and there will be times in PFS when the entire party will have Darkvision, which will make this power shine even more.

Okay poppy, threw together a switch-hitting slayer build. Hopefully decent in melee or ranged. If you prefer to focus on melee or ranged then you can easily swap out a Slayer Talent and pick up Trapfinding and get the rogue class ability.

Take this build with a shaker of salt, throw against the wall and see what sticks.

You won't be able to pick up Blinding Sneak Attack until at least 7th level since it requires a +5 base attack bonus as a prerequisite so I would recommend taking it before then. I generally take it as early as possible. If you're planning to be a ranged rogue, then I might take it at first level so you can make ranged sneak attacks from relative safety inside your own magical darkness. For melee, you'll obviously need other feats first like Weapon Finesse, but I would still take it at 3rd or 5th. It can be a save your ass power, and there will be times in PFS when the entire party will have Darkvision, which will make this power shine even more.

Makes sense. Thanks. With only a few months in the game, I feel overwhelmed at times. Plus, I don't have all the books to research all of these items.

Okay poppy, threw together a switch-hitting slayer build. Hopefully decent in melee or ranged. If you prefer to focus on melee or ranged then you can easily swap out a Slayer Talent and pick up Trapfinding and get the rogue class ability.

Take this build with a shaker of salt, throw against the wall and see what sticks.

** spoiler omitted **...

WOW. I really appreciate the time you took to put this together. Love the name, too. Let me process and I am sure I'll have questions.

Okay poppy, threw together a switch-hitting slayer build. Hopefully decent in melee or ranged. If you prefer to focus on melee or ranged then you can easily swap out a Slayer Talent and pick up Trapfinding and get the rogue class ability.

Take this build with a shaker of salt, throw against the wall and see what sticks.

** spoiler omitted **...

First question ... How did the ability modifiers change from +2 Dex, +2 INT and -2 CHA to +2 STR, +2 Wis, -2 CHA?

Rerednaw wrote:

Okay poppy, threw together a switch-hitting slayer build. Hopefully decent in melee or ranged. If you prefer to focus on melee or ranged then you can easily swap out a Slayer Talent and pick up Trapfinding and get the rogue class ability.

Take this build with a shaker of salt, throw against the wall and see what sticks.

** spoiler omitted **...

First question ... How did the ability modifiers change from +2 Dex, +2 INT and -2 CHA to +2 STR, +2 Wis, -2 CHA?

Whoops, right sorry didn't think to mention I was using splatbooks.

Variant tieflings (different SLA, skill perks, stat bonuses) in Blood of Fiends.
Variant aasimar in Blood of Angels. Both are Paizo, not 3rd party supplements and legal in Society Play (though you have to own the book or pdf).

The details of the sub races can be found on paizo's PRD or my personal favorite website (less ads than d20pfsrd) archives of nethys.

poppy_thompson wrote:

Rerednaw wrote:

Okay poppy, threw together a switch-hitting slayer build. Hopefully decent in melee or ranged. If you prefer to focus on melee or ranged then you can easily swap out a Slayer Talent and pick up Trapfinding and get the rogue class ability.

Take this build with a shaker of salt, throw against the wall and see what sticks.

** spoiler omitted **...

First question ... How did the ability modifiers change from +2 Dex, +2 INT and -2 CHA to +2 STR, +2 Wis, -2 CHA?

Whoops, right sorry didn't think to mention I was using splatbooks.

Variant tieflings (different SLA, skill perks, stat bonuses) in Blood of Fiends.
Variant aasimar in Blood of Angels. Both are Paizo, not 3rd party supplements and legal in Society Play (though you have to own the book or pdf).

The details of the sub races can be found on paizo's PRD or my personal favorite website (less ads than d20pfsrd) archives of nethys.

Being brand new, I don't have those books. Just dealing with the Core, APG, and ARG. Thanks though. Would have driven me nuts trying to find that.

...

Being brand new, I don't have those books. Just dealing with the Core, APG, and ARG. Thanks though. Would have driven me nuts trying to find that.

Gotcha. I think they are worth picking up (at least the PDF version).

Without getting into too much math, let's say 18 strength. Big 2-hander style uses greatsword, TWF uses shortsword.

First level:
2H: +1(bab)+4(st)=+5 to hit
damage on hit: 2d6+6

TWF: +1(bab)+4(st)-2(TWF) = +3 to hit, 2 attacks.
damage if BOTH hit: 1d6+4+1d6+2=2d6+6 with a lower chance to hit on each attack. And if the TWF has to say...move, he forfeits the second attack.

Not that TWF isn't workable. It just costs more in terms of feats, items, etc...and there are situations where TWF seems desirable.

poppy_thompson wrote:

...

Being brand new, I don't have those books. Just dealing with the Core, APG, and ARG. Thanks though. Would have driven me nuts trying to find that.

Gotcha. I think they are worth picking up (at least the PDF version).

But even if you don't I'd pretty much leave the build as is (just flip a few stats around). Bottom line, a melee with a big 2-hander weapon is usually better off than a melee with TWF.

Without getting into too much math, let's say 18 strength. Big 2-hander style uses greatsword, TWF uses shortsword.

First level:
2H: +1(bab)+4(st)=+5 to hit
damage on hit: 2d6+6

TWF: +1(bab)+4(st)-2(TWF) = +3 to hit, 2 attacks.
damage if BOTH hit: 1d6+4+1d6+2=2d6+6 with a lower chance to hit on each attack. And if the TWF has to say...move, he forfeits the second attack.

Not that TWF isn't workable. It just costs more in terms of feats, items, etc...and there are situations where TWF seems desirable.

Seems logical, even without delving into the statistics. I am not playing this weekend, so I will tinker and keep this post going with more builds. Thanks again for all the advice. I will look into those products, too.

Before you decide upon picking Bludgeoner, sap adept and sap master, make sure you have some way of making all foes flatfooted.
Ex Difficult terrain, Shatter defenses featchain, "Scout" Archtype.

Before you decide upon picking Bludgeoner, sap adept and sap master, make sure you have some way of making all foes flatfooted.

Ex Difficult terrain, Shatter defenses featchain, "Scout" Archtype.

Valid point. thanks.

TorresGlitch wrote:

Before you decide upon picking Bludgeoner, sap adept and sap master, make sure you have some way of making all foes flatfooted.

Ex Difficult terrain, Shatter defenses featchain, "Scout" Archtype.

Valid point. thanks.

If you want to focus on the flat-footed portion you can do this:

The switch-hitter build had sap master thrown in as a nice bump to start a combat with. Default assumptions are encounter at a short distance (so have your bow and blunt arrow ready) and fire that first shot with the extra sneak dice versus a flat-footed opponent. Or if viable, charge in the surprise round.

I have finally been able to put some time into my character development. Only been able to set them up, though. No planning through 12th level, yet. Here is my rogue build right now.

Here is my Slayer build. For some reason I don't have access to the Bludgeoner feat at this moment (using Hero Lab).

poppy_thompson wrote:

TorresGlitch wrote:

Before you decide upon picking Bludgeoner, sap adept and sap master, make sure you have some way of making all foes flatfooted.

Ex Difficult terrain, Shatter defenses featchain, "Scout" Archtype.

Valid point. thanks.

If you want to focus on the flat-footed portion you can do this:

** spoiler omitted **
The downside is you lose your versatility. Having ranged as a backup is almost always a good option. And this build doesn't come fully online till 9th which is very late. But when it does come online, you will be quite effective in melee.

The switch-hitter build had sap master thrown in as a nice bump to start a combat with. Default assumptions are encounter at a short distance (so have your bow and blunt arrow ready) and fire that first shot with the extra sneak dice versus a flat-footed opponent. Or if viable, charge in the surprise round.

I submitted my Tiefling Slayer build in a previous post. Where is the Bludgeoner feat listed in the books? It isn't listed in the Hero Lab software for the packages I bought. Found it. It is in the Ultimate Combat book. I don't have that one, yet (book or Hero Lab).