Undine’s curse

In the ARG there's the spell Undine’s curse (1st level). If a creature subject to this spell turns unconscious (including sleeping), it stops breathing and starts to suffocate. I guess that the spell can also be cast on an already unconscious creature. As I read it, the target then - if nothing happens to wake it up - dies in 3 rounds. Or would it be allowed to hold breath, thus surviving 2 rounds for each Constitution point, and then start saving? The former would also apply to witch's slumber, as on the first round the creature would drop unconscious, so would not wake up due to damage.

wow, if used properly that could be a deadly little tool, no idea on the actual rule question though.

I think that the phrase "begins to suffocate" is not precisely defined, since "slow suffocation" is completely different, and yet you cannot finish suffocating without beginning to. With vague terms, I look to the fluff, and undine's curse basically forces a creature to hold its breath. It doesn't suck the air out of its lungs or anything.

So, I'd say that you have two minutes to notice that your 10 Con buddy stopped breathing after lying down to take a midday nap. Then he'd start making increasingly-difficult Con checks every round that he was still asleep, and he'd die three rounds after failing one.

And hope that the target isn't an internal alchemist that held his breath before he went to sleep...

I think that the phrase "begins to suffocate" is not precisely defined, since "slow suffocation" is completely different, and yet you cannot finish suffocating without beginning to. With vague terms, I look to the fluff, and undine's curse basically forces a creature to hold its breath. It doesn't suck the air out of its lungs or anything.

So, I'd say that you have two minutes to notice that your 10 Con buddy stopped breathing after lying down to take a midday nap. Then he'd start making increasingly-difficult Con checks every round that he was still asleep, and he'd die three rounds after failing one.

Thank you very much, of course you're right. When I posted I was thinking that holding breath is a voluntary action, but anyway 3 rounds are too few to suffocate.

Fredrik wrote:

I think that the phrase "begins to suffocate" is not precisely defined, since "slow suffocation" is completely different, and yet you cannot finish suffocating without beginning to. With vague terms, I look to the fluff, and undine's curse basically forces a creature to hold its breath. It doesn't suck the air out of its lungs or anything.

So, I'd say that you have two minutes to notice that your 10 Con buddy stopped breathing after lying down to take a midday nap. Then he'd start making increasingly-difficult Con checks every round that he was still asleep, and he'd die three rounds after failing one.

Thank you very much, of course you're right. When I posted I was thinking that holding breath is a voluntary action, but anyway 3 rounds are too few to suffocate.

Suffocation

A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. If a character takes a standard or full-round action, the remaining duration that the character can hold her breath is reduced by 1 round. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The check must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success.

When the character fails one of these Constitution checks, she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates.

Not sure if I should post quotes from the spell, as it is not yet on the SRD, but here's the gist: the spell imposes conditions on the creature and when those conditions are met it begins to suffocate.

As such it's pretty clear cut:
-under the rules for holding your breath, you begin to suffocate when you fail a Con check after the initial Con*2 rounds.
-under the effect of the spell, you begin to suffocate when you can't take physical actions.

If either of these conditions are met, the target begins to suffocate and falls unconscious at 0hp and will die 2 turns later of left alone.

Balance-wise this is powerful (especially in the hands of a Witch with a Slumber hex), but by no means broken. You could always do terrible things to sleeping targets in combat and taking 3 rounds to kill someone is rather long. The spell shines when stealth is key, but even then you can only cast it so many times a day. If you want to kill a sleeping target, have the damage dealer coup de grace it.

Hmm that 1 hour/level duration makes me have all sorts of evil thoughts.

Casting Raise Thread!

If this spell is effecting a sleeping creature, would suffocating wake them up?

As it stands, I can't really see a use for this spell.

If someone is conscious, having to "breathe on purpose" has no listed drawback. If they are sleeping, it's arguable that this spell would wake them (suffocation deals damage). If they are unconscious, there's no reason to cast this on them in the first place.

It is about as useful as Contagion.

Neither spell is likely to kill a foe in combat, but they both cause major problems for the character afterwards. It is most effective as a hit and run tactic used by a villain -- less so for heroes who generally want to win an encounter and then move on.

You know, that'd actually be a pretty good way to take down a dragon. After all, as Bilbo pointed out: Dragons sleep.

Even if it doesn't sleep because of the curse, an extended version at high levels is going to mean that the dragon has been without rest for at least a day and a half. I think an exhausted dragon would be much easier to fight than a fresh and ready one, don't you?

It is about as useful as Contagion.

Neither spell is likely to kill a foe in combat, but they both cause major problems for the character afterwards. It is most effective as a hit and run tactic used by a villain -- less so for heroes who generally want to win an encounter and then move on.

I don't see how it's useful in that regard. It just means a few hours of having to "breathe on purpose" and then you're fine. If it wakes you up when you start to choke, it means you can't go to sleep until the curse ends, but that's about it. It would take multiple successful castings over the course of days to even Fatigue or Exhaust someone.

If the spell doesn't mean "if you fall asleep or pass out, you will die" then I'm not sure what it is supposed to do.

Its an interesting spell, but its worded in a way that doesn't make its intent or effects terribly clear.

Where in the rules does it say that suffocation causes damage? It says "she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates." It never talks about taking damage. Falls unconscious and drops to -1 hit point are different than takes enough damage to fall unconscious or takes 1 damage to drop to -1 hit point. Slow suffocation actually talks about taking damage where as suffocation does not.

Are there rules for normal sleep? The slumber hex says the effects end if you take damage (although i agree that undine's curse does not actually deal damage and so would not end the effects) but i dont see any rules about normal sleep being interrupted immediately by taking damage

David knott 242 wrote:

It is about as useful as Contagion.

Neither spell is likely to kill a foe in combat, but they both cause major problems for the character afterwards. It is most effective as a hit and run tactic used by a villain -- less so for heroes who generally want to win an encounter and then move on.

I don't see how it's useful in that regard. It just means a few hours of having to "breathe on purpose" and then you're fine. If it wakes you up when you start to choke, it means you can't go to sleep until the curse ends, but that's about it. It would take multiple successful castings over the course of days to even Fatigue or Exhaust someone.

If the spell doesn't mean "if you fall asleep or pass out, you will die" then I'm not sure what it is supposed to do.

Its an interesting spell, but its worded in a way that doesn't make its intent or effects terribly clear.

You are purposefully misreading this spell and how suffocation rules work.

1. The spell says if you fall asleep this spell still works.

2. Suffication DOES NOT cause damage, an ability that reduces your hp doesn't automatically do damage. No where in the suffication rules (accept slow suffication) does it say you take damage. Undines curse specifically states that you start to suffocate, not that you start to suffocate slowly.

3. But let's say your right. You're automatically at zero hp and you fall unconscious again because now you have zero hp. Undines curse doesn't stop working just because you take dmg. So now your unconscious again, and in 3 turns you die.

So either way, if you wake up or dont, you will die in 3 or 4 rounds from this combination.

It is an extremely powerful spell if used correctly. Because no matter what it drops thr creaTure to zero hp (if they were asleep).

So now let's say I'm still wrong and they are awake, ok, but your still at zero hp and can't take any strenuous actions or you will fall unconscious again, and again die in 3 rounds.

Doomed Hero wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

It is about as useful as Contagion.

Neither spell is likely to kill a foe in combat, but they both cause major problems for the character afterwards. It is most effective as a hit and run tactic used by a villain -- less so for heroes who generally want to win an encounter and then move on.

I don't see how it's useful in that regard. It just means a few hours of having to "breathe on purpose" and then you're fine. If it wakes you up when you start to choke, it means you can't go to sleep until the curse ends, but that's about it. It would take multiple successful castings over the course of days to even Fatigue or Exhaust someone.

If the spell doesn't mean "if you fall asleep or pass out, you will die" then I'm not sure what it is supposed to do.

Its an interesting spell, but its worded in a way that doesn't make its intent or effects terribly clear.

You are purposefully misreading this spell and how suffocation rules work.

1. The spell says if you fall asleep this spell still works.

2. Suffication DOES NOT cause damage, an ability that reduces your hp doesn't automatically do damage. No where in the suffication rules (accept slow suffication) does it say you take damage. Undines curse specifically states that you start to suffocate, not that you start to suffocate slowly.

3. But let's say your right. You're automatically at zero hp and you fall unconscious again because now you have zero hp. Undines curse doesn't stop working just because you take dmg. So now your unconscious again, and in 3 turns you die.

So either way, if you wake up or dont, you will die in 3 or 4 rounds from this combination.

It is an extremely powerful spell if used correctly. Because no matter what it drops thr creaTure to zero hp (if they were asleep).

So now let's say I'm still wrong and they are awake, ok, but your still at zero hp and can't take any strenuous actions or you will fall unconscious again, and again die...

Also I forgot this will work with any paralysis type spell. Because Undines curse also specifically states you need to be able to take physical action. You cannot take any action while paralyzed.

Which just makes this level one spell that much better.

Applied critical sleep apnea is a cruel thing. Lack of rest unless you can meditate I suppose. Why does the ARG have so many spells I would not allow at my table?