Wand of CLW - who has one and when / how did you buy it?

I do not beleave this.

BELIEVE it. :)

Earlier this year when we were having discussions about how hard scenarios should be, Mark Moreland confirmed that assumption is made when they design scenarios. << Now that's hard to believe. :)

In looking at the "always available" item list for PFS, I just noticed that wands aren't on it. Is that why everyone is using PA to buy their wands at low levels?

My only character's first chronicle sheet had the wand for 750 gp, which is why it never occurred to me earlier in this thread that not everyone could just buy one once they have the money.

You can buy off the "always available" list, the easy way.

You can buy with 2 PA for a 750go item. Wands are 750gp. They can be bought for 2PA anytime regardless of TPA total.

Items on the chronicle sheet can be bought after award, despite your current TPA.

The last way has some variation between DMs. I think I am right when I read the rule as saying after 9 TPA (as per the TPA table) you can buy anything for cash to 1500GP, even if its not on the chronicle sheet.

Can I get an amen from another judge from the last part?

Another option is "Fighter D" who just takes a one level dip into Ranger and can then use a CLW wand without any checks. No hit on BAB or hit points, bonus to saves, and a bunch of skill points and class skills. Pick the Guide archetype if you want more flexibility with attack spikes and away you go!

Dominick is correct.

• "Always available" items are, just that, always available.

• Items on the chronicle sheet essentially become "always available" regardless of your Fame/Prestige. note that some chronicle items have a purchase limit, and once bought, are no longer available.

• You are limited to purchasing other items by your Fame score. Reference page 21, table 5-3 in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. For example, when you have earned 9 Fame, you can buy any approved item (see the Additional Resources) with a total value up to 1,500gp.

• Spending Prestige to acquire an item is not limited by your Fame. Once per scenario, you may "spend" one prestige point to gain any approved item worth up to 150gp. Consider it a "gift" from the Pathfinder Society, a reward for services rendered. Alternately, you can "spend" two prestige points to gain an item up to 750gp value.

Note that TPA and PA are "old" terms and could be confusing with regards to the newest release of the Guide (4.0)
Fame refers to the total amount of prestige you have earned and only changes when you are awarded more points at the end of a scenario.
Prestige Points (PP) are the "spendable" portion of the mechanic. You can never have more PP than Fame. You spend these for goods and services and you can never recover spent PP, only gain more when awarded points at the conclusion of a scenario.
Also note that items acquired with prestige have no value so you cannot sell them.

nosig wrote:

I do not beleave a masterwork tool will give you +2 on a skill other than Craft... or maybe Profession.

Masterwork tools can apply to any skill. See link.. I learned that earlier this year from these boards.

ok, I just went to the link and read it all. Mostly is was a bunch of people in 2008 saying they would like the Masterwork Tool bonus restricted to the Craft skills - and a number saying they saw no problemn with this as long as players aren't abusing it. the use of a Lucky Rabbits Foot to give a bonus to Use Magic Device was ... not well excepted. Thou one poster did give an idea for a book on common device trigger phrases etc. that should give a bonus for UMD if you had the time to reference it.

So, I still do not beleave this. and will do some additional research and/or start another thread to see which way it should work at PFSOP tables.

nosig wrote:

I do not beleave this.

BELIEVE it. :)

Earlier this year when we were having discussions about how hard scenarios should be, Mark Moreland confirmed that assumption is made when they design scenarios. << Now that's hard to believe. :)

do you have a link for this please? or some idea of what I can search on to find it myself? I would like to see what MM said exactly. (realizing that my memory is very bad, and perhaps other people can remember things out of contest too.)

The important entry is by Jason Bulmahn. While he does not really state definitely that all skills can benefit from a masterwork tool, he certainly expresses that as his opinion. Being as he is the lead designer for Pathfinder, that's good enough for most.

Hey there all,

I think that you can come up with a masterwork tool for every skill, if you give it some thought. Here are some examples I came up with on the fly...

Spellcraft - A tome containing a myriad of sample spell effects and guides for identifying them.
Diplomacy - A pleasant perfume or situationally appropriate attire.
Bluff - Bribes or an appropriate distraction. This one is actually pretty tough and highly dependent on the situation.
Use Magic Device - A guide of common magic phrases and activation techniques.

So.. I am not really in favor of limiting this option, but I think that a GM is well within his right to limit abuses of this particular rule.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Another option is "Fighter D" who just takes a one level dip into Ranger and can then use a CLW wand without any checks. No hit on BAB or hit points, bonus to saves, and a bunch of skill points and class skills. Pick the Guide archetype if you want more flexibility with attack spikes and away you go!

this is my choice... and he can also mention to the other's that he can use the CLW wands.

My Rogue 4/Wizard 1 can use a wand of Infernal healing... I just need to decide if he'll buy one. Character Personality wise that is...

The important entry is by Jason Bulmahn. While he does not really state definitely that all skills can benefit from a masterwork tool, he certainly expresses that as his opinion. Being as he is the lead designer for Pathfinder, that's good enough for most.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there all,

I think that you can come up with a masterwork tool for every skill, if you give it some thought. Here are some examples I came up with on the fly...

Spellcraft - A tome containing a myriad of sample spell effects and guides for identifying them.
Diplomacy - A pleasant perfume or situationally appropriate attire.
Bluff - Bribes or an appropriate distraction. This one is actually pretty tough and highly dependent on the situation.
Use Magic Device - A guide of common magic phrases and activation techniques.

So.. I am not really in favor of limiting this option, but I think that a GM is well within his right to limit abuses of this particular rule.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

so we are saying that in PFSOP it is ok for my Rogue to just buy a Masterwork tool (cost 50gp, 1 lb.) for Disable Device and get a +2 bonus there, rather than buying Masterwork Thieves tools (100 gp and 2 lbs)? and this would work just as good? (why am I getting an immage of a sonic screwdriver here?).

And another for a Climb, and forgo the Climbers kit (which cost more and weighs alot more)?

this is legal in PFSOP?

I think this 2008 posting is outdated. This was before the Pathfinder Core Rulebook was done.

Let's see at examples given by Jason:
Perfum - does exist now
Bribes - always possible and often detailed in scenarios

He also mentioned the alternative would be to generate individual items. To me it seems that is the way Paizo has gone.

If you just look at the APG
Astrolabe +2 on Knowledge Geography, Survival to navigate, profession sailor - 100 gp
Balancing pole +2 - 8 sp
Bellows
Compass
Footprint book
Fortune teller deck
Leeching kit
Map maker kit
Pulley +5 !
sextant
Symptom kit

To me you need an official tool in any of the rule books and shouldn't just be able to make them up because of a 2008 posting - even if this was by Jason.

Actually - I probably should make up a list of existing items with weight and cost. My Wizard/Pathfinder Chronicler might just have the right item somewhere in his deep pockets or carried by his porter.

this is legal in PFSOP?

I would rule that any specific masterwork tool in any approved resource would over-rule the general rule of +2/50gp.

• Climber's Kit 80gp
  
• MW Musical Instrument 100gp
  
• MW Thieve's Tools 100gp
  
• MW Artisan's Tools 55gp
  
• etc

so we are saying that in PFSOP it is ok for my Rogue to just buy a Masterwork tool (cost 50gp, 1 lb.) for Disable Device and get a +2 bonus there, rather than buying Masterwork Thieves tools (100 gp and 2 lbs)? and this would work just as good? (why am I getting an immage of a sonic screwdriver here?).

And another for a Climb, and forgo the Climbers kit (which cost more and weighs alot more)?

this is legal in PFSOP?

First of all, where's the new thread you promised for this topic? :D

Second of all, since it is what is RAW, it's not legal to deny it in PFS.

The example of the kits is a valid one, however. Way I run it is the tools apply a flat bonus to skills that do NOT have a kit associated. The Mwk tool is still applicible, however it would only be useable in a certain circumstance.

Example: Climber's Kit gives +2 to all climb checks. Mwk Ice Pick (climb tool) only gives that same +2 to climbing ice. And since they're both circumstance bonuses, you can't stack them both.

Since UMD does not have a kit, a mwk tool is sufficient for the +2 all the time.

nosig wrote:

so we are saying that in PFSOP it is ok for my Rogue to just buy a Masterwork tool (cost 50gp, 1 lb.) for Disable Device and get a +2 bonus there, rather than buying Masterwork Thieves tools (100 gp and 2 lbs)? and this would work just as good? (why am I getting an immage of a sonic screwdriver here?).

And another for a Climb, and forgo the Climbers kit (which cost more and weighs alot more)?

this is legal in PFSOP?

First of all, where's the new thread you promised for this topic? :D

Second of all, since it is what is RAW, it's not legal to deny it in PFS.

The example of the kits is a valid one, however. Way I run it is the tools apply a flat bonus to skills that do NOT have a kit associated. The Mwk tool is still applicible, however it would only be useable in a certain circumstance.

Example: Climber's Kit gives +2 to all climb checks. Mwk Ice Pick (climb tool) only gives that same +2 to climbing ice. And since they're both circumstance bonuses, you can't stack them both.

Since UMD does not have a kit, a mwk tool is sufficient for the +2 all the time.

Goodness, where to start...

Some of the existing Kits give a +2 bonus in limited circumstance - Perfume for example only works on persons that could be sexually attracted to the user - so can I get a mwk tool that would give me a +2 in all other circumstances? ones not covered by an existing kit?

If I do not have the source that gives me access to the Kit for a skill, can I get a mwk tool to cover the skill. For example, the Perfume above is available in the Armory - so if I don't own it can I buy a Tool to give me a +2 to Diplomacy?

If a Kit appears in a new published source, do my older Tools still work? if not, can my PC get his gold back on them?

IMO, the rule about "most recent rule" applies. Until a Paizo staffer says otherwise, Jason's rule will continue to be the "official" one at my table.

I understand Thod's point about 2008, but since Pathfinder is written on the fundamentals of 3.5 OGL, and back-ward compatible, I see no reason to change.

Oh, and for the record, I still don't think that MWtools would work for any skill - otherwise why would they list the other kits?

Yeah, sometimes it seems like there are two types of gamers: those who stay away from poorly-defined areas of the rules, and those who are drawn to them like moths to the flame. :-)

I do not beleave a masterwork tool will give you +2 on a skill other than Craft... or maybe Profession.

I wanted to address this, as I've seen other people thinking this as well (more specifically "Craft only") and no one's really spoken to this specifically yet (in this thread).

Note that there's a separate Core item called Masterwork Artisan's Tools that apply to Craft. Thus, the more generic "Masterwork Tool" must be intended for more than just Craft.

And since it's the only tool item that doesn't specify what skill it's tied to, it stands to reason that the whole point of including it in the Core Rules was for it to exist in more than one "version", each covering a different skill. This notion is supported by Jason Buhlman's statement of intent.

As for details of whether or not you need to figure out what each incarnation of it physically is (as opposed to just "MWK Tool: Stealth") and if there are any skills for which it doesn't work, that's a little fuzzier. But it's clear that it exists for the sole purpose of being a "catch-all" item to prevent the designers from needing to invent and price an item for every single skill individually.

For the sake of not risking confrontations with the occasional easily-offended GM, I personally choose to limit my use of the Masterwork Tool to things that "make sense", like fine cookware for Profession(Baker), nice athletic shoes for Acrobatics, etc. But that's just me. :)

I seem to really read the entry in detail for the very first time.

My feeling is - this was done as a catch-all so with GM disgression you have a ball park cost for a +2 to enhance a skill.

But looking at the above athletic shoes for 50gp for +2 Acrobatics I feel I did a very bad deal on my Boots of Elvenkind for 2500 gp for +5.

But wait - wasn't there in Knights of the Dinner table the pink legwarmets of speed. The non-magical MW version should give me a+2 and as it stacks RAW (Elven Boots are competence, MW tools are circumstance bonus) - this should give me a +7 for both - time to upgrade my Elven boots with some leg warmers.

I really feel uneasy with that.

Also - Jason mentioned items that are used up. So what about some draughts - special beer - that I just drink. This is my draught of acrobatics - Drunken Rager takes a gulp of it - and adds +2 to his tumbling or jumping.

What about specific items that grant a +2 but are only granted via a cronicle.

Why bother if such items are more difficult to get and more expensive if you can make up your own?

(Concerns about MOAR BONUSES!)

I really feel uneasy with that.

Don't worry, that's a common knee-jerk reaction whenever someone learns that there's "more" of something than they thought. I.e., you had an idea of what the "baseline" for bonuses to a skill were, and then something got "added" to that, so naturally it looks like "more" and upsets the sense of balance to which you'd already become accustomed. But if you had always known you could do this with the MWK Tool, I bet it wouldn't be bothering you. :)

I've seen the same thing when someone learns skills don't auto-fail on a 1 (sometimes making it impossible for a character to fail a certain task). Once they've come to accept one paradigm as "appropriate", a perceived shift in that will always be alarming at first.

Just try to keep in mind that this is what the CRB was published with years ago. Although it feels new when you learn about it, it's actually been around a while and hasn't broken anything.

But you should still feel uneasy about pink legwarmers. ;)

What about specific items that grant a +2 but are only granted via a cronicle.

** spoiler omitted **

Why bother if such items are more difficult to get and more expensive if you can make up your own?

Maybe the scenario writer forgot about/didn't read up on the MWK Tool before creating that item? Alternatively, what kind of bonus does the item you listed grant? Perhaps it stacks?

I keep planning to buy a masterwork tool of +2 Perception that only works when searching for things. I envisage it as a headband with lots of magnifying glasses and the like on it, inspired by Johnny Depp in Sleepy Hollow. I'm curious as to how many people here would allow that.

I keep planning to buy a masterwork tool of +2 Perception that only works when searching for things. I envisage it as a headband with lots of magnifying glasses and the like on it, inspired by Johnny Depp in Sleepy Hollow. I'm curious as to how many people here would allow that.

realizing that there is an Alchemical item that gives a +2 to perception (and to Knowledge skills), but has draw backs ....

In a home game I can see giving this. In PFSOP?

I seem to really read the entry in detail for the very first time.

My feeling is - this was done as a catch-all so with GM disgression you have a ball park cost for a +2 to enhance a skill.

But looking at the above athletic shoes for 50gp for +2 Acrobatics I feel I did a very bad deal on my Boots of Elvenkind for 2500 gp for +5.

But wait - wasn't there in Knights of the Dinner table the pink legwarmets of speed. The non-magical MW version should give me a+2 and as it stacks RAW (Elven Boots are competence, MW tools are circumstance bonus) - this should give me a +7 for both - time to upgrade my Elven boots with some leg warmers.

I really feel uneasy with that.

wouldn't the Elven boots already BE masterwork? so it should give you a +7 now? +5 for the magic and +2 for the Masterwork tool?

I keep planning to buy a masterwork tool of +2 Perception that only works when searching for things. I envisage it as a headband with lots of magnifying glasses and the like on it, inspired by Johnny Depp in Sleepy Hollow. I'm curious as to how many people here would allow that.

it appears that some of the Judges here would say that you are limiting it too much. Masterwork tool (Perception) - looks like a Deerstalker hat - +2 on skill (Perception).

Again I ask - is this legal in PFSOP?

wouldn't the Elven boots already BE masterwork? so it should give you a +7 now? +5 for the magic and +2 for the Masterwork tool?

Wondrous Items are not like weapons/armor where they're already of masterwork quality before being further enchanted, and where being masterwork has a pre-defined benefit (like the +1 to hit with MWK weapons).

The "masterwork tool" does not imply a rule that "tools" which happen to be of masterwork quality automatically provide a +2 bonus. "Masterwork tool" is an item in itself, not a quality level of an existing item.

nosig wrote:

wouldn't the Elven boots already BE masterwork? so it should give you a +7 now? +5 for the magic and +2 for the Masterwork tool?

Wondrous Items are not like weapons/armor where they're already of masterwork quality before being further enchanted, and where being masterwork has a pre-defined benefit (like the +1 to hit with MWK weapons).

The "masterwork tool" does not imply a rule that "tools" which happen to be of masterwork quality automatically provide a +2 bonus. "Masterwork tool" is an item in itself, not a quality level of an existing item.

ok, I'll bite. Why not? if I can make my MW tool be a set of boots, can't I then enchant them? and if so, do I just raise the cost of the item by say... 50 gp to give it another, stakeable +2? so my elven boots are +5,+2?

Ok... I got it.
(sarcasm alert)
Nosigs' Tool Box.
Cost 1750 gp, wieght is 36 lbs (35 lbs of tools and 1 lb of box).
This box contains a masterwork tool for 35 different skills, each of which provides a +2 circumstance bonus for a different skill (35 total skills).

ok, I'll bite. Why not?

Because there is no such rule.

Ok... I got it.

(sarcasm alert)
Nosigs' Tool Box.
Cost 1750 gp, wieght is 36 lbs (35 lbs of tools and 1 lb of box).
This box contains a masterwork tool for 35 different skills, each of which provides a +2 circumstance bonus for a different skill (35 total skills).

Aw, but now that you've made it public, you can't enter it in RPG Superstar 2012! ;)

nosig wrote:

ok, I'll bite. Why not?

Because there is no such rule.

Ok, you lost this old guy Jiggy... huh? I thought you were saying the rule for Masterwork tools gave the cost of a tool to get a +2 circumstance bonus for a skill would give you a set of footgear that would give you +2 on stealth.

Jiggy wrote:

nosig wrote:

ok, I'll bite. Why not?

Because there is no such rule.

Ok, you lost this old guy Jiggy... huh? I thought you were saying the rule for Masterwork tools gave the cost of a tool to get a +2 circumstance bonus for a skill would give you a set of footgear that would give you +2 on stealth.

If this is so, why can't this set of footgear be enchanted to be Elven boots? Is it not of high enough quality to be enchanted?

It's possible I misunderstood your question, so I'll try and be thorough:

With weapons and armor, there's a sort of "progression":
Item --> MWK Item --> Magic Item

You can have a longsword, or for a higher price you can have a masterwork longsword, or you can take that MWK longsword and enchant it to be a +1 longsword.

But that progression does not exist for other (non-armor, non-weapon) items. There is no:
Shoes --> MWK Shoes --> Magic Shoes

Now, magical footwear exists (like Boots of Elvenkind), and a mundane item called Masterwork Tool which you might describe as footwear exists, and certainly ordinary shoes exist. But they are 100% unrelated.

The magical properties of a Wondrous Item do not build upon the properties of the base item the way Magic Weapons and Magic Armor/Shields do. They exist exactly as their stat blocks indicate.

Now, presumably, a wizard crafting Boots of Elvenkind would need a pair of boots to enchant. But there is no rule in Pathfinder saying that any special properties of whatever you enchanted to become a Wondrous Item would carry over.

So... does any of that clear anything up for you at all? :P

maybe, sort of...
I know that in magic item creation for Craft Wonderous Items you need masterwork items - the cost of which is normally included in the cost of creation of the item. At least it was that way in 3.5 and I would be surprized if it did not get taken into PF as well.

So, to create Elven boots, you need MW boots - which normally give no bonus in play (though I have had DMs in home games give some circumstance bonus to them, a +1 to Diplomacy or some other CHA based skill for being "rich".).

So what I was asking is, can I just enchant the Masterwork tool to give me the bonus? and if it CAN be, why ISN'T it already? Does the Enchantment distroy/overlay/replace the bonus for Masterwork tool?

sheesh - this needs it's own thread. Guess I should go start one now.

This Mwk thing really belongs in a thread of it's own in main.

I've let a player pick up a masterwork mapping kit to map out an area. Brain is squishy right now so I forget what the skill was. Profession mapmaker? Ugh, it was for a scenario. Kind of funny because he wanted to buy it but wound up no needing it.

This Mwk thing really belongs in a thread of it's own in main.

I've let a player pick up a masterwork mapping kit to map out an area. Brain is squishy right now so I forget what the skill was. Profession mapmaker? Ugh, it was for a scenario. Kind of funny because he wanted to buy it but wound up no needing it.

Profession Cartographer, and the module was likely either