Serinbaal the Lands of Torment ("Dark Sun" Homebrew Pathfinder 1e)

Game Master Sebecloki

Maps and Images:

Battlemaps:

Current Encounter Maps:

Plaza of Power: Sideview
Plaza of Power
Tarek Camp

The Lair of Kchac'Thraa the Inimitable: Overview

Shraagroom's Sporulation Chamber -- Battlemap: Round 6
The Lair of Kchac'Thraa the Inimitable: Shraagroom's Sporulation Chamber -- Battlemap: Round 4
The Lair of Kchac'Thraa the Inimitable: Shraagroom's Sporulation Chamber -- Battlemap: Round 3
The Lair of Kchac'Thraa the Inimitable: Shraagroom's Sporulation Chamber -- Battlemap
The Lair of Kchac'Thraa the Inimitable: Shraagroom's Sporulation Chamber -- Plain View

The Lair of Kchac'Thraa the Inimitable: The Door to Doom -- Battlemap

pngs/pdfs of battlemaps

PNG of Map w/ Tokens
PNG of Map w/out Tokens
The Lair of Kchac'Thraa the Inimitable - The Door to Doom pdf

Current Encounter Maps:

Myceloid Cavern
Earth Drake Layer: Overview
Earth Drake Layer w/our Grid
Earth Drake Layer w/ Grid

Hex Grid

The Ruins of Kalidnay
The Ruins of Kalidnay I: The Ceramic Desert and Outskirts of New Kalid
The Ruins of Kalidnay II: Elder Kalidnay and the Diamond Mines of Khnum-Khamunkhephres
The Ruins of Kalidnay III: The Iridescent Desert and Magma Lake

Setting Maps

The Free City of Tyr
The Ruins of Yaramuke
The City State of Raam

The World of Athas

World Map I
World Map II
World Map III

The Valley of Dust and Fire
The Tyr Region
The Tyr Region and the Valley of Dust and Fire

Some additional ideas from the 'Arena' discussion forums of Athas.org that I will be using for this fan-created expansion of the Dark Sun world map include ideas from the following threads:

East side of the Sea of Silt

Beyond the Tablelands

And here are some ideas I will be incorporating in some fashion if Spelljamming ever comes up:

Dark Sun Sphere

The Tablelands and Beyond

The Tablelands I
The Tablelands II
The Tablelands and Beyond I
The Tablelands and Beyond II

Giuestenal

The Ruins of Giustenal
New Giuestenal

Chapter One: The Howl of the Carrion King

Tyr Region

The Ruins of Kalidnay Overview

The Riese: Levels 1-2
The Riese -- Side Perspective

The Scarab Hold: The Fortress of the High Templar Ahmun-Ahnpur -- Overview
The Scarab Hold: The Fortress of the High Templar Ahmun-Ahnpur -- The Spires of Apep: The Central Keep

Destiny's Chariot -- Overview
Destiny's Chariot -- Detail

Trading Post of Kelmarane I
Trading Post of Kelmarane II

Battle Market of Kelmarane -- Ground Level
Battle Market of Kelmarane -- Second Level

Temple of Elemental Earth of Kelmarane

Guard Post I
Guard Post II

Sulfuric Baths of Kelmarane -- Overview
Sulfuric Baths of Kelmarane -- Detail

Guild Hall of Kelmarane

Mills


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Male Yaksha Shadow Lord Stalker 10/Harbinger 10(gestalt) Trickster 2(mythic), Mage Hunter 2

Might I suggest Unavoidable Strike to help ensure you almost always hit?


Male Clockspeaker Bard 6/Clockstopper Gunislinger 6/Genius 3 (Gestalt Necrotech Necros 6)(Spellcaster Incanter 3)(Prestigious Necromant 1) | Vitality: 82/84 | Wounds: 36/36 | AC: 35 | TAC: 31 | FFAC: 28 | Fort: 16 | Refex: 19 | Will: 17 | CMD: 33
Resources:
22 Spell Points|2/3 Dancing Lights|0/1 Faerie Fire|1/1 Entangle|1/1 Glitterdust|1/1 Deep Slumber|1/1 Missive|14/27 Rounds Bardic Perform|4/10 Hypertoxins|7/9 Mythic Power|

Okay, so--Lemme put the disclaimer here, I don't want to force you into any decisions, but these are things that might be conducive to your technique. If these aren't the direction you're going in, that's cool--This is all about finding what works for you. With that said, I think you might get a lot out of Vital Strike.
One of the weaknesses of the Meta-attack powers in general, and in fact one I'd like to address with Sable, is that they're explicitly worse than actual metamagic, which is silly, because Martials should get more mileage from their feats, not less. It's already got a Times/day limit, why also give it an action economy limit? Pick and choose, y'know.

But I digress. With the right choices, you can get a lot of mileage out of them by simply reducing your attack to one act to begin with, which Vital Strike does.
So, with that in mind:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/vital-strike-combat will be your bread and butter. Then you'll want:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/mythic/mythic-feats/vital -strike-mythic/ which does this silly thing where you can actually raise your damage waay up by simply having lots of damage dice. Then you follow it up with:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/legendary-games/ki-feats/ki- touch-combat-ki/Which will do Unavoidable Strike, and I actually recommend getting both, except at the cost of 2 Ki Points. Then you get:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/devastating-strike-combat/ Which just...Adds extra flat damage. Optionally, you can add:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/staggering-blow-combat/ for more CC options, the
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/ascension-games-llc/techniqu e-feats/inevitable-technique-combat-technique to raise your floor, and
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/flaming-crab-games/combat-fe ats-3rd-party-flaming-crab-games/vicious-cleave-combat/ to give you the potential to combat multiple foes. I'm at work, but when I get back, I'll explain how you tie this into a Flurry build next--But it's possible, I promise. And then we'll get to adding Powers to it, as well.


Male Yaksha Shadow Lord Stalker 10/Harbinger 10(gestalt) Trickster 2(mythic), Mage Hunter 2

Tyren, your links are all broken. They all link back to Seb's character creation rules in the Campaign Info tab.


AC 29/27/21 | hp 90 | F+11*, R+14*, W+8* | Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune sleep, disease | Weaknesses light sensitivity Init +10 | Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +15 (14 on vision-based Perception checks.) Pic 1 | Pic 2 |

Besides that, there are several mythic and hop feats and abilities which greatly enhance casting and damage disks etc.
That might also be an option.


Male Clockspeaker Bard 6/Clockstopper Gunislinger 6/Genius 3 (Gestalt Necrotech Necros 6)(Spellcaster Incanter 3)(Prestigious Necromant 1) | Vitality: 82/84 | Wounds: 36/36 | AC: 35 | TAC: 31 | FFAC: 28 | Fort: 16 | Refex: 19 | Will: 17 | CMD: 33
Resources:
22 Spell Points|2/3 Dancing Lights|0/1 Faerie Fire|1/1 Entangle|1/1 Glitterdust|1/1 Deep Slumber|1/1 Missive|14/27 Rounds Bardic Perform|4/10 Hypertoxins|7/9 Mythic Power|

*Ahem* Thanks for the catch, Hamza! Lemme just repost that, but fixed.

Okay, so--Lemme put the disclaimer here, I don't want to force you into any decisions, but these are things that might be conducive to your technique. If these aren't the direction you're going in, that's cool--This is all about finding what works for you. With that said, I think you might get a lot out of Vital Strike.
One of the weaknesses of the Meta-attack powers in general, and in fact one I'd like to address with Sable, is that they're explicitly worse than actual metamagic, which is silly, because Martials should get more mileage from their feats, not less. It's already got a Times/day limit, why also give it an action economy limit? Pick and choose, y'know.

But I digress. With the right choices, you can get a lot of mileage out of them by simply reducing your attack to one act to begin with, which Vital Strike does.
So, with that in mind:

Vital Strike will be your bread and butter. Then you'll want:
Mythic Vital Strike which does this silly thing where you can actually raise your damage waay up by simply having lots of damage dice. Then you follow it up with:
Ki TouchWhich will do Unavoidable Strike, and I actually recommend getting both, except at the cost of 2 Ki Points. Then you get:
Devastating Strike Which just...Adds extra flat damage. Optionally, you can add:
Staggering Blow for more CC options, the
Inevitable Technique(Which is a Style) to raise your floor, and
Vicious Cleave to give you the potential to combat multiple foes. I'm at work, but when I get back, I'll explain how you tie this into a Flurry build next--But it's possible, I promise. And then we'll get to adding Powers to it, as well.


Lion Heart: CG Witch/Bard(10) | Vitality: 218 | Wounds: 144/31 | AC: 66| T: 60 | FF: 29 | DR: 10/silver | Fort: 46 | Ref: 46 | Will: 49 | CMD: 38 | Init: 51 | Per: 46 | Speed: 70' | Darkvision: 60' | See in darkness | Low-light Vision |
Amunet-Ra wrote:
besides Cae and Tyrens shenanigans.

I'm not certain why it did, but this made me laugh. =)


Male Clockspeaker Bard 6/Clockstopper Gunislinger 6/Genius 3 (Gestalt Necrotech Necros 6)(Spellcaster Incanter 3)(Prestigious Necromant 1) | Vitality: 82/84 | Wounds: 36/36 | AC: 35 | TAC: 31 | FFAC: 28 | Fort: 16 | Refex: 19 | Will: 17 | CMD: 33
Resources:
22 Spell Points|2/3 Dancing Lights|0/1 Faerie Fire|1/1 Entangle|1/1 Glitterdust|1/1 Deep Slumber|1/1 Missive|14/27 Rounds Bardic Perform|4/10 Hypertoxins|7/9 Mythic Power|

Okay, so, lemme just say, Amunet's got a very good point--We can't invest entirely into the Monk part without addressing marrying psionics into it--And I'll get to some tricks for doing just that in a moment. But first, I've spoken about Vital Strike, now I want to talk about turning Vital Strike into something that doesn't sacrifice the Monk's flavor. We need to Flurry of Blows on an attack action.

Introducing the Street Fighter. For the most part, we don't care about either of the Spheres it gives us. What we care about is that it gives us Flurry of Blows, but with one fewer attack overall, and as part of an attack action. I think it stands to reason that Flurry Strike should work for Flurry of Blows for your class features, but double-check with Sable on that one.

So, now our Vital Strike has two attacks--One Supercharged OnePunchMan-style punch that will(eventually) do hundreds of damage by itself, if properly buffed, and one punch afterwards to assert dominance. But we need more, don't we? What kind of monk just hits twice? So more we shall achieve.

On the topic of Throwing Monks:
I'd like to make an aside here: I have not brought you down the path of madness, so I'm not converting your unarmed attacks into thrown attacks, but that's actually possible. If you're willing to master this dark art, you can eventually achieve a mythical...Let's see...Twelve(?) attacks per round? As a standard action. With one attack dealing literally hundreds of damage.

We're going to need Cleave and Mythic Cleave. I can already hear what you're thinking: Er...Mythic Cleave? Tyren, I'm trying to punch one guy lots, not lots of guys that may not necessarily exist. To which I say, I know! We're going for the Horrifically Overpowered Cleave. It has two advantages: One, it's cleave on Steroids, since it allows you to punch everyone else for your un-multiplied amount of hits, and two, it doubles your attacks one your target. You see, if you read the feat carefully, you might note that it tells you you get one additional attack against every opponent in your reach. That includes the one you just hit.

Karmic Strike and You--A Primer:
You might be under the impression that you don't want to be hit. That is not necessarily true. With Karmic Strike, getting hit means a new world of opportunity. If you combine this powerful technique with the feat seize the opportunity, you can basically full-strike the opponent as many times as they're stupid enough to attack you. At this point, you can seriously consider dumping AC, as it's entirely possible you'll kill the opponent long before they're superhumanly capable of killing you.

Finally, for Unarmed Strikes, we can utilize Haste. Or, as you might know it, Physical Acceleration. We're now at six attacks.

I believe that's the most we can get from one set of attacks. Well. Where to from here? That's going to be swapping out all those less useful attacks...For manifesting powers. Here's the part where I address what Amunet-Ra has very rightly pointed out--You can fill an excellent gap for us! And you don't have to sacrifice your offensive capability, either. I'll detail how in my next post.


AC 29/27/21 | hp 90 | F+11*, R+14*, W+8* | Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune sleep, disease | Weaknesses light sensitivity Init +10 | Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +15 (14 on vision-based Perception checks.) Pic 1 | Pic 2 |

That's very nice stuff Tyren. Pretty sure I can learn something from that myself.

We have to keep an eye on playability though and need to find a variance for our GM as well.
This combat also serves as a test.
So if we all outmax everything, things become a lot more difficult and a lot more rocket tag.
And I'm pretty sure we want to avoid rocket tag as good as possible.


Male Clockspeaker Bard 6/Clockstopper Gunislinger 6/Genius 3 (Gestalt Necrotech Necros 6)(Spellcaster Incanter 3)(Prestigious Necromant 1) | Vitality: 82/84 | Wounds: 36/36 | AC: 35 | TAC: 31 | FFAC: 28 | Fort: 16 | Refex: 19 | Will: 17 | CMD: 33
Resources:
22 Spell Points|2/3 Dancing Lights|0/1 Faerie Fire|1/1 Entangle|1/1 Glitterdust|1/1 Deep Slumber|1/1 Missive|14/27 Rounds Bardic Perform|4/10 Hypertoxins|7/9 Mythic Power|

So, I should admit something to you.
Amunet-Ra is actually correct. I think I've said it three times, but Amunet-Ra deserves a lot more nods, there. Spellcasting is powerful. It can ascend beyond hitpoint damage and corporeal forms, and allow you to strike against the Gods itself. If we ignore your spellcasting, we're doing you a disservice. With that in mind, You should invest some HOPF feats into your casting. Specifically, you should invest into:
Metanatural Spell: This gives you "Metanatural" points you can spend to simulate Metamagic or, in this point, Metapower. Metamagic is at a 1:1 ratio, so Metapower *should* be on a 1:2 ratio. You gain 3+int/wis/cha, whatever's highest. If you haven't boosted one of these stats, do so. You should have at least +10. 13 points should allow you to reliably use any Metapower you want about as much as you want to. Then choose whichever Metapowers strike your fancy.

You should also get Full Casting Action. Two powers in one turn is seriously overpowered. See Synchronicity if you don't believe me. With this one HOP feat, you could turn your six attacks into 24. And that's just *one* use. There's more.

I should admit something else to you. I can't actually replace all your other attacks with powers. I could get you mixing in powers with your attacks, but that's up to you if you want to pursue this path.

However, with this, you should have a good idea if this sort of path is what you'd like to follow! I'm sure Amunet-Ra can give you more tips on the psionics ends of things. To that end, I can only remind you--Fission, Fusion, Synchronicity, and Schism. These are the most powerful Psionics in the game. Grab them when you can.

EDIT: Amunet does also serve a great point in advising on playability! While I did get a bit--Ahem--Carried away with the idea of Vital Strike combined with Unarmed Damage to literally multiply your damage into the range of 'hundreds', you'll probably want to stay between 150-250 for your average damage. That's about in-line with the rest of the party, and will let Sable more accurately produce a consistent line of monsters.

EDIT EDIT: So, after having posted that Primer, I looked through this: Just for Funsies And I'd honestly reccomend it more. It fixes a lot of the rules inconsistencies, scales better, and opens up full-attacks as remaining a valid option, in case you decide to add natural attacks to the mix.


OK -- the droid was stunned if Amunet-Ra's ability did that -- and maybe poisoned too.

I need everyone to double check their location before I post next. The line up of the characters will be crucial to what is about to happen.


Male Yaksha Shadow Lord Stalker 10/Harbinger 10(gestalt) Trickster 2(mythic), Mage Hunter 2

On the subject of rocket tag, massively increasing numbers, and other insanity,

Legendary Games has a section in their Mythic Hero's Handbook that handles a lot of these concerns.

Seb, I *strongly* suggest you not only look at these suggestions, but also start implementing them, before this game gets so out of hand, it almost becomes unplayable.

Because that is definitely a concern.


Is it in this wiki spheresofpower.wikidot.com? If it's not -- how much material are we talking about? I don't want to buy a whole book that's mostly available already online for 5 pages of info.


Male Yaksha Shadow Lord Stalker 10/Harbinger 10(gestalt) Trickster 2(mythic), Mage Hunter 2

They can be found here Mythic Solutions


Hamza Mīnakshi wrote:
They can be found here Mythic Solutions

That seems like a long list of variant rules -- are there any you'd like to highlight? I'm honestly not even sure how to begin evaluating all these different options and how it would effect play.


Female Half-Elf Alchemist (Eldritch Poisoner) 6 | Warder 6 | Guild Poisoner 2
Sebecloki wrote:

OK -- the droid was stunned if Amunet-Ra's ability did that -- and maybe poisoned too.

I need everyone to double check their location before I post next. The line up of the characters will be crucial to what is about to happen.

Jin and Gu are definitely where they're supposed to be.


Male Weremonkey Rogue/Ranger/Trickster
Sebecloki wrote:
That seems like a long list of variant rules -- are there any you'd like to highlight? I'm honestly not even sure how to begin evaluating all these different options and how it would effect play.

They aren't variant rules, they are fixes to prevent the game from breaking down, written by some of the very same people who wrote the Mythic Adventures book from Paizo in the first place.

The advice ranges from outright bans(like the Foe-Biting weapon quality) to alterations(like to Amazing Initiative) to limitations(like for buffs).

They are *not* options or alternate rule systems. They will affect play by keeping us from breaking your game, easily destroying your NPCs, and running wild over the setting.

Honestly, I would take the time to read through them all, and decide which ones you feel you should implement for your game.

Some that you should look at include the above mentioned Foe-Biting, Amazing Initiative, limitations on buffs, Power Attack, and Vital Strike are some of the bigger issues for Mythic play.


Male Yaksha Shadow Lord Stalker 10/Harbinger 10(gestalt) Trickster 2(mythic), Mage Hunter 2

Hamza is currently on the droid's back, and since I was able to make my saving throw and took no damage from the electric barrier without needing to use a counter, I am potentially ready for whatever attacks it might make against me.


Male Thri'Kreen UMonk 5/Psychic 5|Champion 3 | Vigor 71/71 Wounds 28/28 T14 | AC:38 T:27 Fl:31 | CMB: +10 CMD: 34 | F +9 R +10 W +9 | Init +10 | Perc: +12 Sense Motive +12
Resources:
Spells: 1st 5/7 2nd 4/5 | Ki pool 4/5 | Mythic Power 8/9
Current Effects:
Mage Armor, Resist Energy (Acid), Shield

I haven't had a round yet so I'm still where I was when the combat started (just over the trap in the stairs).


AC 29/27/21 | hp 90 | F+11*, R+14*, W+8* | Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune sleep, disease | Weaknesses light sensitivity Init +10 | Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +15 (14 on vision-based Perception checks.) Pic 1 | Pic 2 |

This is my most favorite game, no doubt about that.
I'm a bit worried though.
The last rules rework was meant to even out things and make them more easy.
Instead we got something else. Now things are even more complex, gaps between PCs bigger it seems.
I don't have the feeling using even more 3PP and especially 3.5 stuff helps there.
Worse, this even more slows down the game.
Yes we have a lot more posts, but i somehow don't really feel the flow of the game, because most are about rules discussions and more minmaxing.

Hence i'm making an appeal for less minmaxing and i'm totaly ready to remove vital strike and mythic vital strike from my character, because i think it's ridiculous.
Same is true for getting however many attacks with the highest possible damage.
We need to strike a balance there, not press the last bit of crunch out of somewhere.
I guess all of our PCs have more than enough cool abilities, that's what i thought the gestalt thing is about when we started.
And i have/had one of the stronger PCs i guess.


Monkeygod wrote:
Sebecloki wrote:
That seems like a long list of variant rules -- are there any you'd like to highlight? I'm honestly not even sure how to begin evaluating all these different options and how it would effect play.

They aren't variant rules, they are fixes to prevent the game from breaking down, written by some of the very same people who wrote the Mythic Adventures book from Paizo in the first place.

The advice ranges from outright bans(like the Foe-Biting weapon quality) to alterations(like to Amazing Initiative) to limitations(like for buffs).

They are *not* options or alternate rule systems. They will affect play by keeping us from breaking your game, easily destroying your NPCs, and running wild over the setting.

Honestly, I would take the time to read through them all, and decide which ones you feel you should implement for your game.

Some that you should look at include the above mentioned Foe-Biting, Amazing Initiative, limitations on buffs, Power Attack, and Vital Strike are some of the bigger issues for Mythic play.

What I meant by variant was 'rules that are different from what's in the Paizo core books'.

This would be a significant alteration in the existing rules. I'm happy to consider some of them, but that's a lot to wade through, and I'm not even sure how to evaluate the effect of a lot of them on individual character builds. Again, if you'd like to suggest some you think are important, I'm happy to take on requests.

At this point all I could personally see using was the villain buffing rules.

Most of the other stuff is going to deal with very technical issues in individual character builds I don't have a good sense of -- the whole unarmed combat system is not something I've delved deeply into, or have any sense of what these changes would entail for the monks among us, for example.


Male LN Human gestalt unchained monk/psion (kineticist) 12 | overmind 3 | Vigor 746/746 | Wound 76/76 | DR 3/-*, AC 51 t 42 ff 32 | CMB+61 CMD 71 | F+42 R+45 W+34 | Init +41 | Perc +21, SM +21 | Speed 70ft | Stunning Fist: 12/12 | Ki: 12/12 | Power Points: 182/182 | Psionic Focus: 2/2 | Mythic Power: 9/9 | Emissary: 1/1 | Eternal Hope: 1/1 | Hero points: 1 | Denied: 1/1 | Empowered Attack: 2/2 | Extended Attack: 3/3 | Widen Attack: 3/3 | Extra Meta-Attacks: 5/5 | Active conditions: Biofeedback, Ethereal (1m)

Unavoidable Strike was already on my list, as were the vital strike path :)

I'll look into those others Tyren, thanks!

Likely these will still just be feats lined up for future levels, and even if I wanted to swap out anything I have now I won't be able to do it for a couple of weeks (as I'm travelling now).


Amunet-Ra wrote:

This is my most favorite game, no doubt about that.

I'm a bit worried though.
The last rules rework was meant to even out things and make them more easy.
Instead we got something else. Now things are even more complex, gaps between PCs bigger it seems.
I don't have the feeling using even more 3PP and especially 3.5 stuff helps there.
Worse, this even more slows down the game.
Yes we have a lot more posts, but i somehow don't really feel the flow of the game, because most are about rules discussions and more minmaxing.

Hence i'm making an appeal for less minmaxing and i'm totaly ready to remove vital strike and mythic vital strike from my character, because i think it's ridiculous.
Same is true for getting however many attacks with the highest possible damage.
We need to strike a balance there, not press the last bit of crunch out of somewhere.
I guess all of our PCs have more than enough cool abilities, that's what i thought the gestalt thing is about when we started.
And i have/had one of the stronger PCs i guess.

I need to clarify whether you stunned the robot or not for my next action.


Also, I'm trying to take on some comments from the players about making sure this experiment doesn't run off the rails. I probably haven't replied to every message from everyone, but I do read feedback and I hope I generally succeed at being a fairly responsive GM.

I agree that this combat is exposing some potential issues.

One solution is to all agree that this will be a fairly low-combat game. We'd have set piece combats for major events, but basically get rid of random encounters and filler combats that are in a lot of APs.

The difference would be a game where none of the combats we've done so far would have happened -- the only thing I would have made a combat would be a complicated set piece with the thri-kreen wraith and his allies. All the dungeon random encounters would be replaced by other stuff.

Do consider that there are other uses of combat abilities -- getting rid of physical obstacles, hunting, different kinds of crafting (like using offensive magic to level a mountain top for a fort).

The idea would be to make the campaign more role-playing, non-combat focused -- something like the Planescape: Torment or Numenera: Tides of Torment games.

I'm personally fine with that, as I mostly enjoy the world-building aspects of play, but I understand that might frustrate some people if they're mainly in it to use combat abilities, so I'd like to get some feedback on that suggestion.

From my perspective, that would make things easier to GM, because I currently have to look up tons and tons of stuff every time we do combat actions, and its also a lot of work to try to make NPC stats for these encounters.


AC 29/27/21 | hp 90 | F+11*, R+14*, W+8* | Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune sleep, disease | Weaknesses light sensitivity Init +10 | Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +15 (14 on vision-based Perception checks.) Pic 1 | Pic 2 |

If the robot didn't make his save, he is stunned.
By spending a mythic power point, i can overcome immunity to stun.

No combat is no solution, i think it should be fairly distributed between all aspects.
Using the bench pressing table like in the other game aiming at ~CR10 could be a solution and good orientation. I think it helped very good in the Numenera game.

Also, did you consider having more enemies on the battlefield instead of only 1? Those could be less powered, but having more of them also makes more impact.
That is of course if not everyone of us has powers where he can attack every enemy or lock them down on the battlefield with AoOs they will barely survive.

It's probably best when the weaker and the stronger PCs meet somewhere in the middle.
And having nukes doesn't mean they need to be used all the time.


I honestly find the idea of the bench pressing table kind of unappealing aesthetically -- I'm not really interested in a set of characters that have the same mechanical gradations across all measurements -- samish AC, BAB+, Health, Saves etc.

I'd rather attempt to average out more impressionistically, by developing a niche for each character than just forcing everyone to build towards certain values on a spread sheet.


Male Clockspeaker Bard 6/Clockstopper Gunislinger 6/Genius 3 (Gestalt Necrotech Necros 6)(Spellcaster Incanter 3)(Prestigious Necromant 1) | Vitality: 82/84 | Wounds: 36/36 | AC: 35 | TAC: 31 | FFAC: 28 | Fort: 16 | Refex: 19 | Will: 17 | CMD: 33
Resources:
22 Spell Points|2/3 Dancing Lights|0/1 Faerie Fire|1/1 Entangle|1/1 Glitterdust|1/1 Deep Slumber|1/1 Missive|14/27 Rounds Bardic Perform|4/10 Hypertoxins|7/9 Mythic Power|

Well, a consideration should be made in what we actually consider to be the ideal gradation upon which difficulty is set. This should be measured via three criteria:

How long should a battle take?
How much of our resources should the battle deplete?
What are the odds of a player becoming incapacitated, how should those odds be effected by their respective resource levels, how should those odds be effected by their respective skill levels?

For instance: At level 8 or so, I recall Humanoid opponents, even six or seven of them, to typically be a low-level encounter. Trolls were mid-level, and a Troll with character levels was considered a high-level encounter.

7 humanoids would take about 2-3 turns for a party of 6 to mop up. They would use next to no resources, and the chances of incapacitation were next to nil.

2-3 trolls were mid-level, taking about 4-8 turns for a party of 6 to mop up(disparity resulting in things like availability of acid, whether we were willing to Nova spells or not, etc. etc.), would usually require a small expenditure of resources, mostly healing, and the chances of incapacitation were low-level, but raised dramatically if we exposed a spell-caster.

A Troll with character levels could easily range from 10-15 turns, required at least a moderate expenditure of resources, and almost guaranteed an incapacitation if those were the only resources expended. A TPK would likely happen without such resources, and the possibility of incapacitation became more distant the more resources we had.

From a basic scale like this, we can kind of get an idea of what a battle should look like, and it should be a little more clear as to exactly what needs to be fixed.

Right now, I think we can agree definitely the problem here comes from a duality of either incapacitation becomes all-too probably, or else too few resources are spent. We're also a little bit on the quick end of where I'd expect this fight to go. Keeping in mind this isn't the boss, but the pet of the boss, this thing should last for at least 4 turns. Assuming it has Damage Reduction and some forms of Energy Resistance, maybe with some Fast Healing thrown in or some form of CC, I see it lasting 3.

Personal thoughts on solution:
I believe our encounters need perhaps 2 things: 1, some form of ablative damage houserule--If I were to make up one on the spot, it'd be something like 'the max damage anyone can do in a turn is 100. Any other damage is treated like a successful bull-rush, pushing the enemy back 1 ft. per 5 damage.'
2, Our enemies need group CC, more than they need group damage. Not confusion, not stun, not domination. If these are used, it should be with the intention of those being the enemy's victory condition--As these are all immediately lethal--But the nauseated, dazed, prone, blinded conditions, that can be countered or fought through.

Further, right now when we attack it, we're only really losing resources in the form of HP damage and mythic points. This is actually more of a weakness of the setting, believe it or not--Athas is a world that lends itself to those being our only resources. Those and PP, which our players use readily enough outside of Combat. This does lead into our next problem, however.
Personal thoughts on solution:
This may not need so much of a solution. Our characters are largely mundane, so our resources are largely HP--PP, our only real source of magic, gets used fairly regularly. I'd say if we want to see that more regularly used, there should definitely be more supernatural scenarios that appear while we adventure, situations where mundane senses simply can't gather all the details.

When HP damage is dealt, it is often lethal even though this is a mid-level encounter--And lethal to a wide variety of characters. Further, saves are a little beyond where they should be. The creature's defenses are where they usually should be--25% chance of success against most of our good abilities--But should likely be a little higher, with only a 15% all-around chance of success for those same abilities. This stems from the fact that our PCs have a lot of encounter-ending spells, powers, and poisons at this level, that immunities might not account for.
But I digress. That's less to do with our chances of dying. What does, however, is the fact that saves are more likely to balloon. An important rule of thumb is that 34 is a good mid point. We have, right now, our lowest player having a +11 to saves. That means that, given that they're the most susceptible to failing saves, they should have a 25% chance of succeeding a mid-ranged roll, meaning they should be able to succeed on a 15. While initially 34 might look high, Tyren more or less guarantees the party is always 8 higher on their saves. That means that they're almost always guaranteed to have +19 to their saves.
Moreover, most abilities that are used would likely be best as lines and cones. Right now, the fault of us all taking damage from a cone would be with us--We're more than mobile enough to avoid all getting caught in the same blast. Bursts larger than 40 ft. should mostly be avoided.
Finally, I know I mentioned earlier in the post about CC as an option for extending battles--It's also a good idea for lowering lethality. If you've taken a player out of the battle for a few turns by nauseating them, your monster:
A) doesn't have to deal as much damage, because they've achieved the objective of being dangerous without it, and
B) doesn't have to focus on that player, which will reduce the probability that the player will die.

This is all just my feedback, though, and is of course subject to criticism. Finally, we do need to determine what our expected average for each type of battle we can come across should be.


AC 29/27/21 | hp 90 | F+11*, R+14*, W+8* | Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune sleep, disease | Weaknesses light sensitivity Init +10 | Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +15 (14 on vision-based Perception checks.) Pic 1 | Pic 2 |

No criticism taken, at least from me.

What you describe with the saves, that's exactly what the bench pressing table is for.
That doesn't generate PCs with the same numbers and stats by the way, but it helps to define a range, so some of the PCs aren't oneshotted as a by product or without any chance generaly.

It also helps if we don't build PCs who can do everything, but keep some vulnerabilities and stuff we can't do as a single PC (includes via companion).
In other words, i think we need to regulate ourselves a bit.

Amunet-Ras saves for example aren't that high, because she has quite a setback gained from the Red Pool. It would be boring and meaningless could she make those saves all the time, there should be a chance to fail actually.


Male Yaksha Shadow Lord Stalker 10/Harbinger 10(gestalt) Trickster 2(mythic), Mage Hunter 2

I absolutely agree that we should use the bench-pressing numbers as a guideline for our PCs.

Hamza is around level 10, which I believe is roughly the CR Seb wants us to be at.

Looking at the numbers:

His to hit is 10+ the good range,

AC is basically exact(2 higher),

Saves are around the good, except for his Ref which is over by 5(due to a class feature letting him add his Wis to Ref),

And his highest skill bonus(stealth) is roughly the same as a level 10 PC that was optimally built for being sneaky. In fact, assuming a game that had normal access to magic items, a level 10 stealth focused PC would likely have a decently higher bonus to that skill.

However, one of the main reasons Hamza's bonus to attack is so much higher than a good level 10 PC should have is due to us using the Horrifically Overpowered feats. As he took Mythic HOP Weapon Finesse, which adds both his Str and his Int mods to attack, along with Dex.

If he didn't have access to that, his to hit bonus is roughly around that 22, with all the other bonuses we have. BAB+Dex alone gets him +15.

I think for this game, with gestalt, mythic, templates, HOP feats, in game granted boons, etc,

The bench-pressing guide should be used as a rough baseline minimum. All PCs should strive to hit those numbers, and only in super rare circumstances, should they be much higher(Ie, Hamza being combat focused and thus having 10+ the to hit bonus).

However, being a little high, little low on the some of the numbers is okay, and even encouraged. Which will prevent the sameness Seb was worried about.

What this will also do is give Seb a cheat sheet, that let's him quickly see the general rough capabilities of the entire party, more or less.

If all the PCs have an AC around 33(plus/minus about 5 or so) he'll know any major combat threats needs at least a +25 or so to hit. He'll also know that having a DC 30ish special ability has a solid chance to succeed if the PCs best saves are all around a +17.


Female Half-Elf Alchemist (Eldritch Poisoner) 6 | Warder 6 | Guild Poisoner 2

At this point we are hacking d20 so heavily that I almost wonder if something looser/more flexible would be better-suited for Seb's artistic vision. GURPS? Mutants and Masterminds?


AC 29/27/21 | hp 90 | F+11*, R+14*, W+8* | Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune sleep, disease | Weaknesses light sensitivity Init +10 | Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +15 (14 on vision-based Perception checks.) Pic 1 | Pic 2 |
Jin En Mok wrote:
At this point we are hacking d20 so heavily that I almost wonder if something looser/more flexible would be better-suited for Seb's artistic vision. GURPS? Mutants and Masterminds?

Clear no from me.

If you people want to play that, have fun.
I would be pretty pissed though about loosing my Dark Sun game here.

And for the hacking, it seems there are different approaches.
Sometimes less is more.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm happy to consider incorporating some elements from other d20 systems if someone wants to suggest something, like throwing in some easily convertible powers from Mutants and Masterminds, which seems to run on a similar chassis and have an online open source document.

However, I want to hold off on any such experiment till we've sorted out the present issues.

GURPS/Mythras/Heroes/Anima or anything else like that is not a possibility for me -- I'm not sufficiently familiar with any RPG system besides Pathfinder to run it, and I have 1,200 or so pdfs of 3.5/PF, so I don't want to convert or substantially abandon what we're already working with right now.

If anything I'd suggest we incorporate some point buy elements from Eclipse: The Codex Persona, which is a d20 point buy system with pathfinder conversions for everything, and is available for free.

We've also spent an ungodly amount of time making the PCs, so I'd like to find a way to hack what we already have some more into something that will work.

I'm still trying to get my head around the bench-pressing table -- I don't understand the EDV statistic and the explanation isn't very clear.

I'm open to using it if everyone thinks it will help so long as I have the agreement beforehand that someone is going to translate this for me -- like I'll ask what the AC, BAB, save DCs etc. for a given group of monsters should roughly be and someone will produce those numbers for me.


I'm also thinking about whether we could incorporate some kind of character flaws to even things out -- like everyone would have a kryptonite such as a crippling allergy or paralyzing phobia.

I think Tyren's idea for a max damage per round is worth considering.

What about making a potential cost to using magic and spell-like abilities -- I was think every round you use it increases (maybe like by 5 or 10%) the possibility of a wild magic surge. So you can only count on using buffs so many rounds before they go haywire.


Male Yaksha Shadow Lord Stalker 10/Harbinger 10(gestalt) Trickster 2(mythic), Mage Hunter 2
Sebecloki wrote:
I'm also thinking about whether we could incorporate some kind of character flaws to even things out -- like everyone would have a kryptonite such as a crippling allergy or paralyzing phobia.

I plan incorporating this into the Red God's corruption, I just haven't had time the last week+ due to family and some other things that have taken up a lot of my free time.

However, as an example, Hamza is going to suffer from sunlight weakness(not as crippling as vulnerability, but pretty bad) and I'm actually thinking of making him go blind as well.

There's also the Anathema of the Red God that we all now suffer from as well, that I posted a little while back.


I'm also looking at the hero points system more -- and if I gave those to some of the monsters, that actually would resolve some of these issues too -- like there's an ability that would let them act first, or cheat death, or re-reroll a save, etc.


AC 29/27/21 | hp 90 | F+11*, R+14*, W+8* | Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune sleep, disease | Weaknesses light sensitivity Init +10 | Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +15 (14 on vision-based Perception checks.) Pic 1 | Pic 2 |

Amunet-Ra already has light blindness and blood hunger as weaknesses.


AC 29/27/21 | hp 90 | F+11*, R+14*, W+8* | Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune sleep, disease | Weaknesses light sensitivity Init +10 | Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +15 (14 on vision-based Perception checks.) Pic 1 | Pic 2 |

We could also consider skipping stuff that let's you avoid all attacks and overcome immunities, since that usualy changes the game a lot.


Male Yaksha Shadow Lord Stalker 10/Harbinger 10(gestalt) Trickster 2(mythic), Mage Hunter 2

I read Endzeitgeist's review of Eclipse, and it sounds very interesting!

From just his review, I do not think we should fully switch over, as any sort of rebuild at this point will be incredibly time consuming not to mention it might even be next to impossible to fully convert due to all of the 3pp stuff we're using.

That said, it seems like we could possibly make use of some of rules elements.

I'll have to take a look at the full system, and give my suggestions later. I am rather fond of those sorts of point buy systems, and this one sounds pretty epic!


AC 29/27/21 | hp 90 | F+11*, R+14*, W+8* | Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune sleep, disease | Weaknesses light sensitivity Init +10 | Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +15 (14 on vision-based Perception checks.) Pic 1 | Pic 2 |

I would say it is a good idea to avoid some 3PP and 3.5 stuff, because that changes the balancing as even HOP doesn't do it.
Also limit companions to 1 per PC, that's a generaly used rule of thumb usualy.


No, I'm totally not suggest converting or anything like that -- I was more thinking giving pools of build points to use for the abilities as part of leveling up, and you could use his PF packages to acquire 1/2, 2/3 etc. class packages or whatever if you needed some more direction.

Like, maybe for the next 'level up' you'd get a pool of points, and you can choose to spend it on health, BAB, an ability etc. It provides a little more flexibility. Like you could decide to forgo anything like a class ability if you just wanted more health, or a higher strength score.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Amunet-Ra wrote:

I would say it is a good idea to avoid some 3PP and 3.5 stuff, because that changes the balancing as even HOP doesn't do it.

Also limit companions to 1 per PC, that's a generaly used rule of thumb usualy.

I like 3pp. stuff and have an enormous collection of it. One reason I DM is so I can use it.


Lion Heart: CG Witch/Bard(10) | Vitality: 218 | Wounds: 144/31 | AC: 66| T: 60 | FF: 29 | DR: 10/silver | Fort: 46 | Ref: 46 | Will: 49 | CMD: 38 | Init: 51 | Per: 46 | Speed: 70' | Darkvision: 60' | See in darkness | Low-light Vision |

I like the less combats idea actually. In PbP, combat tends to use a lot of time. It seems like we have had an encounter in every room so far which is part of the reason we have been in the tombs so long.


Male Clockspeaker Bard 6/Clockstopper Gunislinger 6/Genius 3 (Gestalt Necrotech Necros 6)(Spellcaster Incanter 3)(Prestigious Necromant 1) | Vitality: 82/84 | Wounds: 36/36 | AC: 35 | TAC: 31 | FFAC: 28 | Fort: 16 | Refex: 19 | Will: 17 | CMD: 33
Resources:
22 Spell Points|2/3 Dancing Lights|0/1 Faerie Fire|1/1 Entangle|1/1 Glitterdust|1/1 Deep Slumber|1/1 Missive|14/27 Rounds Bardic Perform|4/10 Hypertoxins|7/9 Mythic Power|

I definitely don't mind using those bench-press numbers as an idea for what an encounter should look like--And knowing whether or not a character's above the line. CR 10 is just about perfect, from what I can tell.

I'd also like to advocate the use of more DR. Maybe DR/Silver. It really is one of the best limiters for multi-attack builds like my own. If it turns out that single-hit characters are becoming more of a problem, and our party needs to incorporate spellcasting or something else more often into our routines...Incorporeality. Projected images. Stuff like that.

Also, yeah, the damage/round thing was something I'd considered as being more cinematic. You can deal 100 damage, and then anything above that and the enemy's liable to fly into a wall or something.


AC 29/27/21 | hp 90 | F+11*, R+14*, W+8* | Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune sleep, disease | Weaknesses light sensitivity Init +10 | Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +15 (14 on vision-based Perception checks.) Pic 1 | Pic 2 |

I son't mind the 3PP stuff per se, i quite like some of it as well.
Only the synergies which are created there are really difficult to handle i think.

Also i literally built to make enemies fly around and through walls.
Greater trip, ki throw, bull rush, hurricane punch, aided by some mythic abilities.
I'm waiting for an opportunity to really use it ingame^^
But we only had giant constructs so far.


Male Clockspeaker Bard 6/Clockstopper Gunislinger 6/Genius 3 (Gestalt Necrotech Necros 6)(Spellcaster Incanter 3)(Prestigious Necromant 1) | Vitality: 82/84 | Wounds: 36/36 | AC: 35 | TAC: 31 | FFAC: 28 | Fort: 16 | Refex: 19 | Will: 17 | CMD: 33
Resources:
22 Spell Points|2/3 Dancing Lights|0/1 Faerie Fire|1/1 Entangle|1/1 Glitterdust|1/1 Deep Slumber|1/1 Missive|14/27 Rounds Bardic Perform|4/10 Hypertoxins|7/9 Mythic Power|

Good point, good point--Probably should take into consideration CMB for that suggestion.


AC 29/27/21 | hp 90 | F+11*, R+14*, W+8* | Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune sleep, disease | Weaknesses light sensitivity Init +10 | Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +15 (14 on vision-based Perception checks.) Pic 1 | Pic 2 |

CMB is pretty high already with +33 on those maneuvers.

What we could consider is leaving out certain options like hop weapon finesse. That the one thing that gives Amunet-Ra the most power and damage there.
And put a more strict reading on mythic vital strike, like only double your damage. When 2d6 becomes 4d6, you only take what comes after the dice twice for example. That's what i already did.


Male Clockspeaker Bard 6/Clockstopper Gunislinger 6/Genius 3 (Gestalt Necrotech Necros 6)(Spellcaster Incanter 3)(Prestigious Necromant 1) | Vitality: 82/84 | Wounds: 36/36 | AC: 35 | TAC: 31 | FFAC: 28 | Fort: 16 | Refex: 19 | Will: 17 | CMD: 33
Resources:
22 Spell Points|2/3 Dancing Lights|0/1 Faerie Fire|1/1 Entangle|1/1 Glitterdust|1/1 Deep Slumber|1/1 Missive|14/27 Rounds Bardic Perform|4/10 Hypertoxins|7/9 Mythic Power|

Well, that change would certainly make me feel better about some of the synergies it uses.
But verifying, here. Are we:
A) just doubling
B) dividing weapon dice by 2 and multiplying by that
Or
C) multiplying by the current Vital Strike Multiplier? With regards to improved/greater vital strike being x3 and x4


AC 29/27/21 | hp 90 | F+11*, R+14*, W+8* | Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune sleep, disease | Weaknesses light sensitivity Init +10 | Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +15 (14 on vision-based Perception checks.) Pic 1 | Pic 2 |

What i did:
-normal spear attack = 1d8 + 38/19-20*3
-mythic vital strike spear attack = 2d8 + 72/19-20*3

Should have been 76, because i took it directly from herolab, where not all numbers like the chopping down the christmas tree 1/3 hd bonus are figured in.

Now my imporved unarmed strike is:
normal attack: 2d6+38
vital strike: 4d6+ 76

That is your option "C" Tyren, which seems the right one to me. As a GM i would also go with that one.

Without hop weapon finesse that number would be a lot smaller though, because it of course is dependant on the base damage and what is multiplied on a critical hit there.


Male Clockspeaker Bard 6/Clockstopper Gunislinger 6/Genius 3 (Gestalt Necrotech Necros 6)(Spellcaster Incanter 3)(Prestigious Necromant 1) | Vitality: 82/84 | Wounds: 36/36 | AC: 35 | TAC: 31 | FFAC: 28 | Fort: 16 | Refex: 19 | Will: 17 | CMD: 33
Resources:
22 Spell Points|2/3 Dancing Lights|0/1 Faerie Fire|1/1 Entangle|1/1 Glitterdust|1/1 Deep Slumber|1/1 Missive|14/27 Rounds Bardic Perform|4/10 Hypertoxins|7/9 Mythic Power|

That's doable, I'd think. Even if I do\id have fun with the thought exercise of maximizing the damage dice.


AC 29/27/21 | hp 90 | F+11*, R+14*, W+8* | Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune sleep, disease | Weaknesses light sensitivity Init +10 | Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +15 (14 on vision-based Perception checks.) Pic 1 | Pic 2 |

There can be lots of theoretical fun, but that doesn't mean we really have to do it or take it ingame ;)
You'll find i didn't take every mximizing thing either. In fact i'm more of a mind to get rid of some again.
Theoretically i have panther style, which i wanted to combine with snake style and possibly with whirlwind attack/tsunami strike.
That would mean i move 180 feet a round, trigger as many AoOs as i can.
Then this would happen:
-i hit everyone once from tsunami strike, probably tripping them (except for 2, which i can hit and trip at the same time).
-They are now tripped, giving me a bonus to hit and them a malus to hit. They also take my improved unarmed strike damage when i trip and ki throw them.
-I get 1 AoO from greater trip.
-I get a second AoO from vicious stomp.
-They get an AoO from me moving around, i retaliate for free from panther style, giving them a -2 on their AoO when i hit (currently 10 times).
-They miss me, i get 1 attack on some of them limited by immediate actions.

That's a possible 4-5 attacks on one opponent per round, at full BAB.
Most likely even more exploitable, but you see where that leads too.
Let's say there are 10 opponents i could all reach.
That would be 41 individual attacks in one round.

And this is just Pathfinder combined with 1 mythic ability regarding AoOs and one HOP feat tsunami strike. Each of those attacks hits on a +32 and deals 2d6+38 damage and crits on 19-20*3, from level 8 on it's 17-20*3.
No further 3PP or 3.5 stuff involved. You bardic and other buffs would come on top.
Who wants to do or track that?
While on one hand i am thrilled by that theory, i don't want to track that ingame. Just too much and not something i want to put on a GM either, because i GM myself and know how much work that is.
It would also slow down the game considerably, because probably the GM would need 1h+ to handle my turn alone.
That would cut into others time and fun probably, something i also don't want to do.


Male Yaksha Shadow Lord Stalker 10/Harbinger 10(gestalt) Trickster 2(mythic), Mage Hunter 2

Mythic solutions offers this help on Mythic Vital Strike:

Problematic Rule: Mythic Vital Strike feat:

This feat is problematic because of its ambiguity. The way it is written seems to imply its use with weapons that deal a single die of damage, like a longsword dealing 1d8 damage. When you use Vital Strike, you double that base weapon damage to 2d8, so by extension Mythic Vital Strike would double your bonuses from Strength, magic, feats, etc. However, as written the feat states that you multiply damage bonuses by “by the number of weapon damage dice you roll.” Hence, if you wield a weapon that deals two dice of damage, like a falchion (2d4) or greatsword (2d6), the feat suddenly becomes twice as effective as if you were wielding a greataxe (1d12). This is to say nothing of Gargantuan or Colossal monstrous enemies that might deal 4 or 8 dice of damage with an attack. Using Greater Vital Strike as written, such a creature might deal 32 dice of damage but also multiply its already prodigious Strength bonus and other bonuses by 32 as well.

Alternative Rule: Replace the rules text for the Mythic Vital Strike feat with the following: Whenever you use Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike, multiply the Strength bonus, magic bonus, and other bonuses that would normally be multiplied on a critical hit by 2 if you are using Vital Strike, by 3 if you are using Improved Vital Strike, or by 4 if you are using Greater Vital Strike.

Alternative Rule #2: Replace the rules text for the Mythic Improved Vital Strike feat found in this book with the following:

Whenever you use Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike, multiply all damage (even damage from sources that wouldn’t normally be multiplied on a critical hit) by by 2 if you are using Vital Strike, by 3 if you are using Improved Vital Strike, or by 4 if you are using Greater Vital Strike.

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