Touch attacks made with natural melee attacks on one dice throw. How's this done?

Here's a scenario. A sorceress with a dragon bloodline can pop magic claws that do 1d4 slashing damage("These claws are treated as natural weapons.."). Any attack she makes with her claws is obviously against her target's full AC. Now the same sorceress casts Elemental Touch on her clawed hands. Elemental Touch: "You gain a melee touch attack causing 1d6 damage of that energy type (in her case fire, not that it's important)....You also deal energy damage and the related special effect when you attack with your hands using an unarmed strike, a single claw, or a single slam attack."

So if her firery hands are by themselves (no claws) a touch attack and her claws are a natural melee attack, then when she swipes someone with a single burning claw attack and her roll to hit isn't high enough to penetrate their full AC (ie: the claws failed to get past the armor) but at the same time is high enough to touch their touch AC, (ie: Ha, ha I still tagged you! You're on fire!)does she still do 1d6 elemental damage? I think she should. If she can run around just touching targets doing 1d6 fire damage whenever she hits their touch AC (ie: with no claws), then it doesn't make sense to me that when she slashes those same targets with her claws(melee attack) while they are on fire with the same spell(touch attack) that the fire damage needs to get around the target's full AC all of a sudden.

Do the pathfinder rules support this? Would you run this another way?

you make either touch attack or a natural attack you can't do both. while elemental touch is allowing for the natural attack to also do the fire damage. it is no longer a touch attack when using a natural attack. it is a all or nothing thing. As are most things in pathfinder most things work like a on off switch.

RAW no, and I wouldn't run it that way. This is an instance where realism gives way to balance, I'd say, and there's only fluff to support it. Here's how such a scenario would play out.

"I want to roll to hit full AC."

"You miss."

"Okay, now I want to hit touch AC even though I decided to attack full AC because I think the fluff supports it."

"No. Bob, your PC's turn."

If it helps, think of the claw as full-out swiping with one hand versus poking the beastie. If you miss with a swipe, you miss entirely, no contact is made at all.

I believe KainPen is incorrect. Let me quote the important section on touch attacks:

"If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge."

Thus, from the reading I get on those two sentences, you have to hit and deal damage. So you actually have to beat the full AC, not just the touch AC. Although, you could make a house-rule that says if you beat the touch AC it also goes off, but strictly reading those two sentences suggests you have to deal damage with a natural weapon for the spell to discharge.

Here is the full quote:
"Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge."

I believe KainPen is incorrect. Let me quote the important section on touch attacks:

"If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge."

Thus, from the reading I get on those two sentences, you have to hit and deal damage. So you actually have to beat the full AC, not just the touch AC. Although, you could make a house-rule that says if you beat the touch AC it also goes off, but strictly reading those two sentences suggests you have to deal damage with a natural weapon for the spell to discharge.

Here is the full quote:
"Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you...

I never said you lose the charge. All I said the attack is all or nothing, if you fail to hit the full ac with a natural attack you can not then choose to then use the touch ac to do the fire damage. you either hit the ac or you don't. once it is a miss it is a miss. their is no middle range.

everything you put up supports that argument. If the caster choose to do touch attack, then he goes for touch ac. if he hits he does damage fire damage per normal. + reflex save dc 15 to see if caught fire, that is not automatic either, read catching fire rules. Just about everything in pathfinder is set up like a on off switch of a light.

power attack is either on or it is not. attacks either hit or miss, saves either pass or fail. skill checks pass or fail. there is no well I am aiming for the full ac so I can get claw damage and fire damage, but I only manged to hit the touch ac so it only gets fire damage. there is no I kind of missed but kind of hit thing. The game is setup this way to keep it running smooth as possible. There are a some gray areas. Where the on off switch is not working properly or is broken do to wording of the rules. This is the reason for so many RAW vs RAI topic on these board, which a lot of times end up leading to devs to making wording changes or revamping rule entirely.

see FAQ on deflecting attacks the answer to the op question is it is all or nothing

FAQ link

Elemental Touch grants you a damaging melee touch attack. You can either use a hand-based natural weapon, rolling versus AC, and deal natural weapon damage plus the Elemental Touch damage if you hit; or you can perform a touch attack, versus touch AC, dealing only the Elemental Touch damage if you hit.

just to be clear if you have a held charge and hit a target with a natural attack the charge goes off there is no second atttack the touch spell discharges and does its effect.

if you miss no charge is expended and no further attacks are granted.

just to be clear if you have a held charge and hit a target with a natural attack the charge goes off there is no second atttack the touch spell discharges and does its effect.

if you miss no charge is expended and no further attacks are granted.

The spell in question is not actually a touch spell. It's a personal spell that grants you the elemental damage on one attack per round for 1 round per level.

So your statement is correct for touch spells, but doesn't fit this particular scenario. Effectively on the first melee or touch attack per round with which you hit, you deliver a charge. You can continue to deliver charges for the duration of the spell.

I have a follow-up question on this thread then about holding a touch attack.

Assume you are a druid using the wildshape ability, and the druid is a cat-form like a lion or tiger. Normally, the cat would get bite and two claws as their attack.

Prior to battle, the druid casts a touch attack spell (say, frostbite) and decides to hold the charge. Then, when battle starts the druid, in cat form, charges the enemy.

Question: Can the cat-form actually hold a charge since the claws that would normally be attacking are touching the ground? The relevant quote is "If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges." So, does the cat running on the ground qualify as "touching anything" and therefore discharges the touch spell before reaching the enemy?

I suppose it depends if the claws touch the ground, but technically tigers have retractable claws like all cats. So, is it feasible for a cat form to hold a touch attack?

Question: Can the cat-form actually hold a charge since the claws that would normally be attacking are touching the ground? The relevant quote is "If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges." So, does the cat running on the ground qualify as "touching anything" and therefore discharges the touch spell before reaching the enemy?

I suppose it depends if the claws touch the ground, but technically tigers have retractable claws like all cats. So, is it feasible for a cat form to hold a touch attack?

There isn't going to be a simple answer, but I'd probably say that no, on the grounds of too much headache over which animals could pull this off or not. I'd let it rest on the decision about whether touching the ground counts as discharging the spell for this purpose - I could go either way on it, but I wouldn't have some animals capable and others not.

I agree with Bizbag, no, but mostly for simplicity.

I agree with Bizbag, no, but mostly for simplicity.

Well, how do you walk or carry armor or anything while holding a touch attack? The claws retract like any other cat, and it isn't the paw that does the damage, it's the claws.

The claws are mostly irrelevant. It'd be the fact that your current form's hand-like appendage is touching something; it's the touching of something with that appendage that causes the spell to discharge, not damage done with that appendage. So you could walk up to an enemy in your cat form and just touch it with your paw, and discharge the spell.

My interpretation of the rulings and designer comments related to touch spells (a lot of which are focused on Magus, but could\should apply more widely) is that if you're touching something when you cast the spell, then you can continue touching it or touch it again without discharging the spell. For example, FAQ tells us that a Magus who is holding a sword could drop the sword and pick it back up without discharging a held touch spell; the rules also clarify that things like touching your armor or wearing a gauntlet don't cause the spell to discharge.

So I'd say that as long as the Druid was touching the ground when he cast the spell, it wouldn't discharge into the ground.

That's my take on RAI; RAW doesn't really cover the subject clearly.

Claxon wrote:

I agree with Bizbag, no, but mostly for simplicity.

Well, how do you walk or carry armor or anything while holding a touch attack? The claws retract like any other cat, and it isn't the paw that does the damage, it's the claws.

As a humanoid you avoid touching anything with your hand that is holding a charge. Claws or not doesn't make a difference, it's the appendage.

If our wildshaped friend can avoid touching the appendage to something then it would be possible to deliver the touch attack. As a four legged animal can't really do that it's not possible.

To avoid long discussion of whether or not a specific animal can avoid touching somehting with a limb its easier to just say none can.

The claws are mostly irrelevant. It'd be the fact that your current form's hand-like appendage is touching something; it's the touching of something with that appendage that causes the spell to discharge, not damage done with that appendage.

Except it doesn't actually work like that because a magus that is disarmed while holding a charge doesn't lose the charge even if he picks up his weapon or draws another. Similarly charges are not lost if an attack is negated with a parry mechanic nor if the attack rolls between touch and full AC and is therefore diverted by a shield or armor. Similarly a quiggong monk holding a charge of Poison does not lose his charge by walking even though he can discharge the SLA with a kick.

In FAQs on touch attacks the unwritten rule is always that the charge is only discharged by attacks made by the person holding the charge. To try to do things otherwise is impossibly complicated.

Except it doesn't actually work like that because a magus that is disarmed while holding a charge doesn't lose the charge even if he picks up his weapon or draws another. Similarly charges are not lost if an attack is negated with a parry mechanic nor if the attack rolls between touch and full AC and is therefore diverted by a shield or armor. Similarly a quiggong monk holding a charge of Poison does not lose his charge by walking even though he can discharge the SLA with a kick.

In FAQs on touch attacks the unwritten rule is always that the charge is only discharged by attacks made by the person holding the charge. To try to do things otherwise is impossibly complicated.

I don't mean this to be offensive, but I have to assume that you didn't read the entirety of my post. I actually quoted the exact Magus FAQ you mention.

Additionally, the "unwritten rule" you quote is not accurate. The end of the FAQ we both mentioned states, "However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal." So as that FAQ says, you can drop your weapon and pick it back up, and you could even feasibly pick up a weapon that someone else dropped - but if you reach into your pocket and touch a potion, the spell goes off.

And more importantly, the FAQ technically only applies to a Magus. Magi have an odd relationship with weapons, that effectively makes them an extension of their body for the purposes of touch spells. If a Wizard were to do the same thing - drop his staff and pick it up - then a held spell would discharge.

Generally speaking, the way that I run it is using the thumb rule I mentioned above: If you're in contact with something at the time you cast a spell, and you maintain consistent contact - like walking across the ground, for example - then the spell won't discharge.