Pathfinder Adventure Path #127: Crownfall (War for the Crown 1 of 6)

Chauvinism and infantilizing of women leaders is rarely amusing.

Agreed! Which why my party will strive to be an equal-opportunity infantilizer ensuring that everyone man, woman and child in Taldor's royal court is a feeble-minded meatpuppet under our control. Letting something like chauvinism or sexism make us less effective tyrants is beyond stupid, I say.

The Mad Comrade wrote:

I think of it as a smart-mouth chauvinist getting put in his place by his social better without resorting to something as gauche as kicking his butt. ;)

If anyone thinks that the princess is going to be some mush-minded weak Willed pretty thing susceptible to Jedi mind tricks and petty charm or dominate spells ... well, IMO the savvy GM will take care of that if the authors don't.

Besides, I love making stat blocks. It'll be pretty easy to come up with one to file the flavor text off of and swap in. *grin*

Edit: few cavaliers have the ability to use enchantments, so the reasonable supposition is that words will suffice to establish Princess Eutropia's status and attitude. One imagines that Her Highness will be quite capable in the new 'social combat' mechanics, especially when dealing with entry-level characters.

Yeah, your probably right that a I well stated Eutropia will be pretty resilient to jedi mind trick shenanigans. Still though, players might as well try to be the power behind the throne, or else what's the point of trying to save a kingdom from another group of a$#**#+s if you don't get to secretly rule it through a figurehead?

Pretty sure that's on the Evil Overlord list.

*chuckling* Yeah, that'd be on there.

The Kingmaker AP (and coming soonTM CRPG via the just-concluded Kickstarter) is currently the best choice for carving one's own kingdom out of the wilderness. Ruins of Azlant seems to start with something vaguely similar (tiny settlement in the derriere of nowheresville).

Getting in with Her Highness' good graces now, oh yeah. Bonus points for shmoozing her up enough to agree to either a convenient political marriage or straight up becoming her consort/spouse. I have a feeling that her getting permanently killed off would take the AP straight off the rails and into a massive sinkhole.

Conquering/freeing a nation is also vastly different than running one, I'll take the former any day of the week.

"We're damage control. I'm the damage. You're the control."

Conquering/freeing a nation is also vastly different than running one, I'll take the former any day of the week.

"We're damage control. I'm the damage. You're the control."

Why not both? Having your cake and not being able to eat too is overrated and definitely not fun in my opinion. But, hey, to each their own.

I was just pointing out that just because someone is good "in the field" does not mean they'll be good in charge. Has absolutely nothing to do with having your cake.

If you can make a character that can do both go right ahead :3

I'm not any good at making politicians.

I was just pointing out that just because someone is good "in the field" does not mean they'll be good in charge. Has absolutely nothing to do with having your cake.

If you can make a character that can do both go right ahead :3

I'm not any good at making politicians.

Ohhh...

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I guess figured everyone secretly wanted to rule the world deep down.

No worries ^w^

Aspiring politicians:

Artistry (literature) to write speeches, Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge (history, local, nobility), Perform (oratory), Profession (barrister) and Sense Motive. Add sufficient Linguistics to pick up the languages spoken in the target nation. You can see where having some highly skilled minions could be quite useful. A freebie level of Aristocrat or Expert could start this off without ridiculous nomm'ing of skill ranks for most characters. If Hell's Rebels is any indication, having these skills at a high bonus (+25 or a bit higher) is going to be of great benefit!

Feats are completely optional.
A couple of good ones though ... Prodigy (choose 2 from among Artistry (literature), Perform (oratory) and Profession (barrister)), Scholar (any two of the three Knowledge skills mentioned)

Tack on Intimidate if evil, although this implies an upbringing as a pawn of the Sczarni, Teamsters or a previous group of PC-pirates from a completed Skull-n-Shackles campaign.

Can we cut the blabla and get back to the product please?

We're a year out from release. Some babbling is to be expected. ;)

We're a year out from release. Some babbling is to be expected. ;)

Exactly my Mad Comrade. Babbling and arguments is what keeps people interested in the product even though its months away and there's little info about it.

Anyways, speaking of incoherent babbling, is anyone else hoping that Princess Eutropia is a big time Cayden Cailean worshiper? Shelyn would probably be a better fit for a royal Taldan princess but I think moving away from that stereotype would be neat. Also, the idea of Eutropia secretly being a fun party girl under all that royal posturing makes me chuckle.

Eutropia, the queen you could have a beer with.

But she's below drinking age! Did anybody think of what damage to our youth would such a role model do?

But she's below drinking age! Did anybody think of what damage to our youth would such a role model do?

Isn't she like 10 years older than in 2007 when paizo's timeline started? :p

Gorbacz wrote:

But she's below drinking age! Did anybody think of what damage to our youth would such a role model do?

Isn't she like 10 years older than in 2007 when paizo's timeline started? :p

i believe so. Wow 10 years. and a lot has happened in those 10 years.

All in all, a great journey so far. lets do our best to make the future even better.

And Make Taldor Great Again.

ps. yes that was a reference, but i am staying neutral in this. Long live Queen Eutropia. and yet i might decide to make a masked maiden vigilante and have her sometimes forget the queens name and spout "Long Live Queen Ileosa, Death to the traitors."

Lemartes wrote:

Are there any special rules being used in this AP such as mass combat or the verbal dueling?

Or Mass Verbal Dueling.

"Go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!"

"Run Away!!!!"

So too early to know?

Why are we assuming that Princess Eutropia is good, wise, smart, or innocent? Isn't that basically the definition of chauvinism?

Hopefully this AP will not be so juvenile, and supporting her will be only an option, one of at least a few possible ones, and she and others are all questionable to fairly equal degrees.

Why are we assuming that Princess Eutropia is good, wise, smart, or innocent? Isn't that basically the definition of chauvinism?

Hopefully this AP will not be so juvenile, and supporting her will be only an option, one of at least a few possible ones, and she and others are all questionable to fairly equal degrees.

How are expectations of wisdom and/or intelligence chauvinist? Chauvinism would presume "groomed to enter a politically-determined marriage and make babies", not "just as able to take the reins of power as daddy".

Chauvinism is a misused word that has nothing to do with sexism. It instead means soemthing more along the lines of being ultra patriotic, or following a political view or ruler without regard for stances you otherwise disagree with, but because that party or person does, it is okay. Its a blend of tradition for tradition's sake and the idea of voting all Republican or all Democrate, even when you do not agree with everything they stand for.

She is a political figure. Her happening to be born with lady parts shouldn't have anything to do with her being wise or smart, and my understanding is that she has not been groomed for the throne. What I am saying is I seriously hope that this AP does not assumes the party just tags along and supports her because she is just so perfect and the party are mindless lackeys. That isn't interesting to me, nor do I want the AP to be a soap box.

Give her good and bad qualities in fairly equal proportions, just like a real person, and a few other reasonable candidate, male and female, that all have pros and cons.

excessive or prejudiced loyalty or support for one's own cause, group, or gender.

Having loyalty to your own gender at the expense of another is chauvinism. Thinking the main woman you're going to be working for in order to save Taldor is incompetent or evil just because she is a woman is chauvinism.

The AP won't assume the party wants to work with Eutropia "just because
", they'll want to work for her because she's the best bet at saving and uniting Taldor, because otherwise would make for a crappy story, but we don't have to worry about that, because Paizo has awesome writers.

We don't even have a writeup for her so we don't know what all qualities, good and bad, she possesses. I'll doubt she be a perfect person, no one has claimed she is in the first place.

I don't want a "few other 'reasonable' candidates", I want a badass and Good Queen. We have that with Eutropia, rather than an assortment of NPCs that would not get the same development and depth as a single one would.

And because the AP is helmed by an awesome lady who has a knack for writing great NPCs and stories.

And because the AP is helmed by an awesome lady who has a knack for writing great NPCs and stories.

I was still editing my post before this but yes, this ^

Crystal without fail knocks it out of the f~&#ing park. I've yet to read anything by her that I didn't like.

The thing about APs is you can't really have multiple branching story paths. There's simply not enough wordcount for major plotline shifts. Choice in an AP as written has to be on a smaller level, like whether or not to kill Devargo Bavarsi in Curse of the Crimson Throne or who to trust in Hell's Rebels. Things like "which potential sovereign do we align with" would be a majorly artificial choice since you'd ultimately have to end up doing exactly the same things regardless of choice, even though on the surface it seems like an important one.

So yeah, we're not assuming Eutropia is the best person for the job because of anything other than that's what the plot will demand she be.

It could just be a matter of circumstances conspiring so that the PCs' interests align with Eutropia's -- so even if other people might have a real decision about who to support, something happens in book 1 to ensure that everyone present at some event is assumed to be in her faction and thus a target to all other factions. Then all that is necessary if for Eutropia not to be depicted as an obviously bad choice for the succession.

Chauvinism wrote:

excessive or prejudiced loyalty or support for one's own cause, group, or gender.

Having loyalty to your own gender at the expense of another is chauvinism. Thinking the main woman you're going to be working for in order to save Taldor is incompetent or evil just because she is a woman is chauvinism.

As I said, it's often misused, to mean something about sexism. But, the point is, is it chauvinist to say: "Don't infantilizing her because she is a women" or a joke that actually treats the character as a real person, regardless of her gender? By ANY definition of the word. Would gender swapping that have made it different, or is it all because the subject was a she?

Erm, contemporary usage is being applied and used by far more people than not instead of original usage. Few seem to even know of its definition as intemperate nationalism/patriotism. I didn't until your post! :)

Learn something new every day. Awesome.

It could just be a matter of circumstances conspiring so that the PCs' interests align with Eutropia's -- so even if other people might have a real decision about who to support, something happens in book 1 to ensure that everyone present at some event is assumed to be in her faction and thus a target to all other factions. Then all that is necessary if for Eutropia not to be depicted as an obviously bad choice for the succession.

Seems that is taken care of rather messily based on the summary atop the thread. ;)

This sounds really cool to me. More excited for this. My group is moving more towards homebrew stuff though, so may not get to do it :(.

I like the use of art in this cover.

I like the use of art in this cover.

Well, it's a placeholder.

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

I like the use of art in this cover.

Well, it's a placeholder.

I too like the use of art in the covers, placeholder or not.

The letters are nice too.

I like it overall. I've always liked the original Taldor cover art, and I like the gray theme. We could really use a lot more knightly character pictures, but especially male ones, (for the message boards).

I do hope overall we get just more knightly and more heavy armored warrior types overall.

Love this AP beginning. I hope it involves conflict with Qadira, putting this great sourcebook to use in their border rivalry. Maybe that is the next AP after Taldor....

xidoraven,

Eh. I'd rather have something more like Legacy of Fire oriented but whatever.

I like it overall. I've always liked the original Taldor cover art, and I like the gray theme. We could really use a lot more knightly character pictures, but especially male ones, (for the message boards).

I do hope overall we get just more knightly and more heavy armored warrior types overall.

Agreed. Most heavily armored classes now have archetypes to trade out the heavy armor for something... it would be nice if there would be more options for the opposite (like they did with the armored hulk barbarian archetype)

I'll be honest: I'm excited for this AP. I really hope the devs will deepen Taldor's background getting it away from its current cartoonish depiction.
I also hope for a competent Eutropia. She doesn't have to be good (to my jaded mind the nature of politics doesn't leave much space for innocence) but determined and driven, on top of her game and not willing to back down from anyone or anything.
All things considered I really have great expectations on this AP!

I'll be honest: I'm excited for this AP. I really hope the devs will deepen Taldor's background getting it away from its current cartoonish depiction.

I also hope for a competent Eutropia. She doesn't have to be good (to my jaded mind the nature of politics doesn't leave much space for innocence) but determined and driven, on top of her game and not willing to back down from anyone or anything.
All things considered I really have great expectations on this AP!

I agree on determined and driven, but I'll be happy if they make her good and naive, but with the guts to follow through her promises, akin to Forgotten Realms' Alusair Nacacia Obarskyr (the Steel Regent of the kingdom of Cormyr, and the youngest child of King Azoun IV and Queen Filfaeril).

Not every head of state NPC should be described as an astute hyper-diplomatic wet noodle. Politics is not for everyone, and maybe it's time that Taldor steps out of its usual bureaucratic personae and adopt a more direct approach.

Rogar Valertis wrote:

I'll be honest: I'm excited for this AP. I really hope the devs will deepen Taldor's background getting it away from its current cartoonish depiction.

I also hope for a competent Eutropia. She doesn't have to be good (to my jaded mind the nature of politics doesn't leave much space for innocence) but determined and driven, on top of her game and not willing to back down from anyone or anything.
All things considered I really have great expectations on this AP!

I agree on determined and driven, but I'll be happy if they make her good and naive, but with the guts to follow through her promises, akin to Forgotten Realms' Alusair Nacacia Obarskyr (the Steel Regent of the kingdom of Cormyr, and the youngest child of King Azoun IV and Queen Filfaeril).

Not every head of state NPC should be described as an astute hyper-diplomatic wet noodle. Politics is not for everyone, and maybe it's time that Taldor steps out of its usual bureaucratic personae and adopt a more direct approach.

Personally I don't think copying the FR would be a wise idea for Golarion and for Taldor. The nation doesn't look like Cormyr and I like how Golarion seems to be a bit more "adult" than Toril is

That's exactly the mold Taldor needs to break from if you want a bold, exciting adventure.

Politics are fine but I don't want the entire AP focused on that.

The novel "Dagger's Trust" does a good job showing the patriotic side of most Taldans, and how they have to remind Chelaxians and Andorans that the bounty of the Empire and its institutions comes at a cost: loyalty.

One can have an exciting AP set there without the whole mired in politics downside...

Sorry I meant to say The Dagger of Trust, available at all reputable webstores near you! :)

Some of us find politics to be infinitely exciting, so I hope its neck deep in intrigue myself.

I suspect that politics are the motivating force for the intrigue, thus instigating copious usage of the social combat et al subsystems in Ultimate Intrigue. Edit: or set via "default rules" in the script with sidebars inserted to incorporate said subsystems.

I guess you can call me guilty of playing the devil's advocate a little bit earlier. Of course I'd be fine with a political AP... or any other type of AP... so that's my point: I don't think it really necessary to build up expectation for one type of AP or another at this point.

A lot of people hold Taldor on some kind of pedestal because of many reasons including that it's been long awaited.

The thing to remember is that we should give the authors a chance to express their own vision of the place and allow for artistic license. Otherwise you end up with a very boring, no surprise left "Age of Ultron."

Well ill be disappointed if this thing turns into a dungeon crawler as latter end APs tend to do. Hopefully, they can at least avoid that much. I love Taldor for its political intrigue opportunities. I wont be fine if its "I want to be queen gather this list of McGuffins for me to become one" So if they avoid that trap at least I should be content.

In my experience the dungeon crawl is a crucial part of this game. This is where the BBEG is and where the adventure culminates. The last book of Council of Thieves (instead of a 'large dungeon crawl') offered a hundred little fires to put down all across the City of Westcrown, and this didn't exactly resonate with everyone's taste, if I recall correctly (ironically, 'thieves' excel *in* a dungeon, apparently... not so much on rooftops).

The dungeon focuses the players on one problem at a time, more or less, and the controlled environment reduces or at least controls the amount of variables. The building blocks of this game are meant to play a role in a dungeon setting, and if you stray away from that you need to make corrections to how the game is played (i.e. the sidebars you mentioned, which *can* be hit and miss... depending on their design/function).

I like a sandbox as much as the next gamer, but when the GM rolls out the dungeon map I feel a certain sense of reward that we've strayed somehow in the right direction... :)

I dunno, the last book of Council of Thieves has issues other than a lack of dungeon crawling.

It's still pretty good mind you. :-)

I believe there are a wealth of archetypes and prestige classes that could use environments that work better for them (which means outside the dungeon). There is plenty of room for artistic license in this underused concept. I think its important that Paizo rotates traditional campaigns with non-traditional campaigns. I'm hoping for non-traditional this time around. YMMV.

I'd be down with a palace crawl where you have to talk your way through a huge party to get to the villain.

Looking forward to running this and bring Heroes of the High Court to enhance this. I start players first on Honor's Echo from Pathfinder Society. Anyone have other ideas to start players?

Anyone else thinking Brienne of Tarth from the cover art?

Hmm I hope Princess Eutropia is not another Mary Sue, and we won't get the same dynamic as in Jade Regent.