4E blog post by Chris Pramas, head of Green Ronin

Now here's a question.

Where does THIS post fit into the entire discussion

A newbie's experience with 4e.

How do you think it fits in?

Let me see . . .

The DM is apparently experienced at playing Magic.
Both he and a friend are experienced at playing WoW.
The others are supposedly novices, yet they apparently can make a comparative analysis of the power level of the characters.
They are a very close family and friend group.
The poster seems confused about whether he had ever played before or not. (It was his first experience, but he had done it before, apparently completely solo, and was bored playing a group game alone.) Then he "randomly decided" to try it again, coincidentally when a new edition came out.
He makes a spontaneous purchase of a $30 adventure, and from reading it realizes it is nothing like something he thought it might be, although seeming to not have a real basis for comparison.
You can also find in his post about his second play experience the rather significant effects of experience and cooperation in the game, two things typically completely overlooked in reviews and analysis of the system.

So really, where does it fit in?

Krauser_Levyl wrote:

Fake Healer wrote:

I love it. A respected rpg developer expresses his opinion and now HE is a moron and an idiot because he isn't suckling at 4E's teat too. Keep on trashing him and everyone else who tries to display an opinion that isn't in line with yours.

First it was 'don't make opinions until you hear more', then 'wait until you see the rules', then 'wait until you play a couple sessions, to give it a real chance', then I hear stuff like 'well once they get some splatbooks out' and other nonsense......

... Who said that Pramas was an "idiot and a moron"? Or even barely implied it?

Bad choice of words on Fake Healers part... but on the second page of this thread, a poster implies that a very respected and experienced RPG designer doesn't know what he's talking about and must be a 4E hater because he states his OPINION that 4E might be hard for newbies to get into. And states it pretty well. There was no reason for the poster to take a very skewed shot at Mr. Pramas.

Thanks Rclifton, for the defense. I adjusted my wording slightly in response to the way Pramas was being attacked by some people.

Which BTW, even Mr. Pramas himself felt happening, stating that he was getting more hostility here than over on Enworld. Yeah, I was WAY out order to point that out.....

The guys over at Battletech use a layered system to bring people into the game. Starting with the boxed set, it then moves on to the Starterbooks and finally ends up with Total Warfare. Which is leading on into other products and whatnot. Although the system seemed somewhat flawed because nothing spelled out where to start or what you needed,,,it has potential. But since 4th is out with the core rules already i don't see why they now release a starter line.....shouldn't a starter set , you know start something?

Can't we all just get along?

You know, when I was little, there was a sign on the wall of the bedroom my brother and I shared. It said, "Toys Will Be Shared. No Fighting Allowed."

The guys over at Battletech use a layered system to bring people into the game. Starting with the boxed set, it then moves on to the Starterbooks and finally ends up with Total Warfare. Which is leading on into other products and whatnot. Although the system seemed somewhat flawed because nothing spelled out where to start or what you needed,,,it has potential. But since 4th is out with the core rules already i don't see why they now release a starter line.....shouldn't a starter set , you know start something?

It all depends on your marketing push. WotC decided to market towards current DnD gamers first, and attempt to bring the new guys in later (hence, putting the Starter Set out later this year.)

It makes sense to me. If they had just put out a Starter Set with basic rules, I'd be considerably irked. I want my full set of rules now, and since I'm already experienced here, I know I can handle them. Meanwhile, the new guy may or may not even know a new edition is out, and is likely willing to wait for the Starter Rules if they feel daunted by the full set.

I know 3E's Starter Set took a while before it came out ... was it even in the first year?

So again, this wisecrack about Kool-Aid is missplaced. 4E fans get 'razzed' a lot more over here than they do at ENWorld. It's only natural that they're a little more sensitive.

(emphasis mine)

They are a little more sensitive from drinking the special Kool-Ade.

Thanks Rclifton, for the defense. I adjusted my wording slightly in response to the way Pramas was being attacked by some people.

Which BTW, even Mr. Pramas himself felt happening, stating that he was getting more hostility here than over on Enworld. Yeah, I was WAY out order to point that out.....

It's good to defend a person. But it's better if you can defend a person without offending others, and even better if you don't generalize your comment as you are clearly speaking about the attitude of a specific person. Particularly, saying things like:

"So many are trying to pull his statement apart to make themselves look better, smarter, more informed, more in touch with existing trends, or whatever else makes them feel better than anyone else. "

... really don't sound better than what the original troll said.

Actually the Planescape adventure I had mentioned was Harbinger House and its designer was Bill Slavicsek.

Thanks for reminding me about one of the raddest adventures I've ever played.

Stedd Grimwold wrote:

The Kool-Ade is special over here.

Not really.

I, in no way, am joining in any Pramas bashing. The man deserves respect.

But there is nothing weird or provocative about 4E fans being harsher over here than over at ENWorld. I'd be shocked if they weren't.

(No offense Mr. Pramas)

In this neighborhood, a 4E fan has to be tough and thick skinned in order not to want push back at critique of the system. The rule set is constantly under fire by a majority of the community, ...

I don't know that that is true. I suspect that the majority of the community (and I may be projecting my own feelings here) overwhelmingly are neither excited nor offended by 4E. There are very vocal minorities on either side of the edition wars but most of us, I suspect, are in the middle.

That's just my perspective but I'd like to see some evidence to back up your claim.

It's a little bizarre that I've gotten more hostility from 4E fans on the Paizo boards than on EN World.

Folks who read a little more of my blog might have noticed that I am trying out 4E right now. I'm running two groups every week, with a total of 13 players. Depending on what the GSL looks like, Green Ronin may also publish some 4E material. For the record.

Chris Pramas
Green Ronin

Yes, unfortunatly the air is pretty cloudy here still. The edition war was fought hard here, and people are still raw about it.

As for your actual blog, I agree with you that the book is not well laid out. Important things like what the different action types and status effects are are left until much to late in the book, and the lack of a good glossary is a real pain.

However, I think you are forgetting an important factor in determining how difficult it will efor new players to get into the game with 4th edition. The generation gap between those who started playing in 1st, 2nd, and even 3rd edition is huge.

The kinds of game I played as a kid were things like the original Mario Brothers and Castlevania. However great those games may have been, they were extreamly simplistic game play. Now, kids expect to have their games do a LOT more. Look at one of the biggest kid game franchises, Pokemon. Those games, and their many, many spin offs, have hundreds of combinations, attacks options, and are generally very complex games to play. Those games have been aimed squarely at young kids for a generation, and they understand them just fine. Just like they understand CCG's and MMO's, other extreamly complex games that didn't exist ten or twenty years ago.

This is not to say kids have gotten smarter, it's just that the entertainment they consume en mass is more complex and detail oriented then what was offered one or two decades ago. Yes, there used to be extreamly complex kids game when I was young, but they were not the media block busters that things like Pokemon, Magic, and MMO's have become. They no longer need a simplified beginner class. They expect things to be complicated.

While the formating of the books might provide a speed bump, I seriously doubt that an eleven year old of today is going to have a major problem playing 4th edition except when it comes to the price tag. Except of course when you compair it to what a gaming system costs these days...

Fake Healer wrote:

Thanks Rclifton, for the defense. I adjusted my wording slightly in response to the way Pramas was being attacked by some people.

Which BTW, even Mr. Pramas himself felt happening, stating that he was getting more hostility here than over on Enworld. Yeah, I was WAY out order to point that out.....

It's good to defend a person. But it's better if you can defend a person without offending others, and even better if you don't generalize your comment as you are clearly speaking about the attitude of a specific person. Particularly, saying things like:

"So many are trying to pull his statement apart to make themselves look better, smarter, more informed, more in touch with existing trends, or whatever else makes them feel better than anyone else. "

... really don't sound better than what the original troll said.

You're right, I should apologize in case some troll decides to take offense at my putting them down for trolling. Hmmmmm. I would if I cared about trolls' feelings but I don't. I only care to point out the total irony that I felt was going down on this thread. If that offends anyone, tough. If you feel like you need to constantly attack my statements to try to make them decrease in worth, feel free, I will continue to defend my position and your assaults only serve to validate my point.

You're right, I should apologize in case some troll decides to take offense at my putting them down for trolling. Hmmmmm. I would if I cared about trolls' feelings but I don't. I only care to point out the total irony that I felt was going down on this thread. If that offends anyone, tough. If you feel like you need to constantly attack my statements to try to make them decrease in worth, feel free, I will continue to defend my position and your assaults only serve to validate my point.

Fire and acid is at the ready if necessary.

Okay. Since your last statement made clear that you believe it's okay to insult others, there is nothing I can do but disconsider your posts from now on.

For the rest, please continue with the relevant discussion.

I love it. A respected rpg developer expresses his opinion and now HE is a moron and an idiot because he isn't suckling at 4E's teat too. Keep on trashing him and everyone else who tries to display an opinion that isn't in line with yours.

First it was 'don't make opinions until you hear more', then 'wait until you see the rules', then 'wait until you play a couple sessions, to give it a real chance', then I hear stuff like 'well once they get some splatbooks out' and other nonsense......
Is anyone ever allowed to make a decision to not like 4E and not be just an ignorant, stuck-in-their-ways, uneducated lout?
If Chris Pramas had come out saying that 4E was good he would be used as a hero, shining beacon, and a rallying leader for the 4E lovers' arguments.
Now he is getting his position assaulted and people are trying to undermine his opinion to make him look like he is either uninformed or just plain dumb to make a statement against 4E.
I wouldn't be upset if so many weren't trying to pull his statement apart to make themselves look better, smarter, more informed, more in touch with existing trends, or whatever else makes them feel better than anyone else.
The man is an RPG Developer. It's OK to disagree with him, (although I have been told on some of the 4E thread that I don't have the credentials to question WOTC's developers' decisions) but to sit here and pick his statement apart to try to 'spin' it in favor of 4E is ridiculous.

Hey Fakey, don't mean to dogpile, but I would just note that there are many people who like 4e and found the post attacking Chris Pramas to be repugnant as well. I just hope you're not letting one a!%%%&@ paint all 4e lovers the same way. I'm a$#+@#+ enough without getting credit for other people's words.

I'd also add that I think Chris raises a valid point - the 4e books do have less examples of play. Significantly less. The books are more designed for ease of use as references at the table, and I'm guessing that the examples went away in favor of that goal. Whether or not other products are better gateways to learning to play D&D is really beside the point. A stated goal of WotC with the 4e books was to increase the accessability of the game. I would agree with Chris's observations that the books did not succeed in that goal.

The magnitude of that failure or the importance of that goal are debatable, but I don't have any problem with Chris pointing out that (i) accessability was a goal and (ii) the 4e books fall short of that goal. That's an entirely valid and reasonable criticism, and well founded in my rarely-humble opinion.

While I didn't have any trouble with the books in general, I agree with several others (and Chris) that it was surprising to find no examples given. I think it might be the first book I've bought to do so, but I'd never have enough time to read my collection and back that claim up.

So then how is 4e supposed to bring more newbies into the fold? I thought WOTC was are one and only hope to save and revitalize the gaming industry.

So then how is 4e supposed to bring more newbies into the fold? I thought WOTC was are one and only hope to save and revitalize the gaming industry.

That step comes later. ;)

So then how is 4e supposed to bring more newbies into the fold? I thought WOTC was are one and only hope to save and revitalize the gaming industry.

In theory, there will be a gateway product designed to bring new players in. That's the way to fix the problem, but it doesn't mean it's not a problem.

Heathansson wrote:

So then how is 4e supposed to bring more newbies into the fold? I thought WOTC was are one and only hope to save and revitalize the gaming industry.

That step comes later. ;)

The check is in the mail?

Heathansson wrote:

So then how is 4e supposed to bring more newbies into the fold? I thought WOTC was are one and only hope to save and revitalize the gaming industry.

In theory, there will be a gateway product designed to bring new players in. That's the way to fix the problem, but it doesn't mean it's not a problem.

That was supposed to be what 4e did, dude. Or was it Eberron?

The bottom line is that the head of another major D20 third party is not happy with the new edition. This opens the door to more 3.5E adventures being produced instead of switching over.

Personally, I agree with a post several pages back that said most new gamers don't come from the books, but from old gamers introducing them to the hobby. So the real question will be...which system do most old gamers play?

Time will tell.

The bottom line is that the head of another major D20 third party is not happy with the new edition. This opens the door to more 3.5E adventures being produced instead of switching over.

Personally, I agree with a post several pages back that said most new gamers don't come from the books, but from old gamers introducing them to the hobby. So the real question will be...which system do most old gamers play?

Time will tell.

I'm not sure, but since WotC first marketing push was current gamer retention, I think they might just agree with you there.

Cheers! :)

The bottom line is that the head of another major D20 third party is not happy with the new edition. This opens the door to more 3.5E adventures being produced instead of switching over.

Personally, I agree with a post several pages back that said most new gamers don't come from the books, but from old gamers introducing them to the hobby. So the real question will be...which system do most old gamers play?

Time will tell.

Actually his point is not that 4e is a bad game. His point is that the 4e PHB is not a good entry level product.

That was supposed to be what 4e did, dude.

Yes, but the 4e product line is bigger than just the phb. I cut my teeth on the red box having never played an rpg before; I can't imagine having picked up the game from just the 1e or 2e phb. I'd rather not have the phb as the go-to point for newbs - the functionality for me would be significantly reduced. That being said, a stripped down entry level product and a phb which is more newb friendly than the 4e phb would be the ideal combo for new players. One problem with the 2e intro level product was that it was so significantly different from the 2e phb that they were effectively different games altogether. I think 4e is particularly well suited to a stripped down entry level version that transitions cleanly into the full product because the bulk of the 4e phb is powers and magic items.

That being said, there was some seriously low hanging newb-friendly fruit that could've been plucked for the 4e phb. The back cover is a particularly good area, as Chris pointed out. The criticism is well-founded that the 4e phb could be more newb friendly, but that doesn't mean another product can't step up to fill that gap.

That was supposed to be what 4e did, dude. Or was it Eberron?
I can't remember...
You....get my drift, right?

You edited your post while I was responding! Good point re: Eberron. I'll be the first to admit that WotC's track record on introductory products is...not stellar... Though, then again, I never played the 3.5 intro product. Maybe that kicked ass. I know the 3.0 intro product got bad reviews.

The red box rocked though. Don't get me wrong in my comments that it didn't integrate will into 2e. It was a lot of fun and I used it to recruit new players into 2e up until 3e rolled out.

Okay.
Eberron. naaah, didn't happen.
4e PHB. err, not 'user friendly.'
New product? O-TAAAAAY!

Is anybody else seeing a trend here?

Actually his point is not that 4e is a bad game. His point is that the 4e PHB is not a good entry level product.

That is true. On this point he stated, "Nor does this bear upon Green Ronin's plans to potentially support 4E with product. That's a whole other discussion (the gist of which is, if it makes sense, we'll do it)."

However, the fact that he used the phrase "if this makes sense" suggests he is not convinced yet.

Okay.

Eberron. naaah, didn't happen.
4e PHB. err, not 'user friendly.'
New product? O-TAAAAAY!

Is anybody else seeing a trend here?

That trend being that WotC has a history of making promises and then failing to follow through? I wish I could disagree, but I can't. They may drop the ball on the introductory product too. That being said, as Chris points out, they are the 800 pound gorilla. If anyone can revive table top rpgs, it's WotC. They're still the best candidate to keep the hobby alive and bring in new blood. They aren't an ideal candidate, but at this point, we haven't got anyone else, or, to the extent we do *cough* Paizo *cough* they're an even longer shot given the brand penetration of D&D and their considerably smaller resources.

When a 'campaign promise' is broken, it brings a brief modicum of joy to my bleak little shriveled Grinchlike heart.

When a 'campaign promise' is broken, it brings a brief modicum of joy to my bleak little shriveled Grinchlike heart.

Have some pie, dog-boy.

Heathansson wrote:

Okay.

Eberron. naaah, didn't happen.
4e PHB. err, not 'user friendly.'
New product? O-TAAAAAY!

Is anybody else seeing a trend here?

That trend being that WotC has a history of making promises and then failing to follow through? I wish I could disagree, but I can't. They may drop the ball on the introductory product too. That being said, as Chris points out, they are the 800 pound gorilla. If anyone can revive table top rpgs, it's WotC. They're still the best candidate to keep the hobby alive and bring in new blood. They aren't an ideal candidate, but at this point, we haven't got anyone else, or, to the extent we do *cough* Paizo *cough* they're an even longer shot given the brand penetration of D&D and their considerably smaller resources.

Have you ever heard of Arthur Anderson Accounting? IDK exactly how old you are; forgive me if this sounds snarkish.

Have you ever heard of Arthur Anderson Accounting?

Dude, that's so apples to oranges, I can't even begin to grapple with it. It's not like the accounting industry was in danger of dying because no one wanted to buy accounting services anymore. Look, we're fundamentally on the same page. We want the hobby to grow and not die. Whether it's 4e or Pathfinder or Exalted, it doesn't really matter. But at the end of the day, WotC is best positioned to lead the drive at this point in time. Is it possible they'll fumble and implode the brand? Sure. If they do, will someone else be there to step up? God, let's hope so. Is anyone big enough to push as hard as they can right now? No. Not even close.

Wicht wrote:

They make fun reading but I wouldn't advise actually using them in a game. :)

I would say the same about the HoL game. Impossible to run, yet guaranteed to make you laugh at least once out loud, and if you are a hard-core gamer, probably every page.

Ok, having read this wiki-article on the game: I really want to find a copy of it.

LOL
It makes me happy.

You know, I have to say, I think that a good solution to this problem might be to release a new 4th Edition D&D for Dummies.

I'm serious here, I thought the 3.5E version of D&D for Dummies was fantastic for introducing such a complex game to new players. And seeing as Bill Slavicsek is the one who wrote it and he's also working on 4E, it seems like it would be a natural fit.

Of course, there's the starter product coming out in November, I think? But I can't say I really liked the starter product I got with 3rd edition (I think it was called the D&D Adventure Game?), perhaps the starter set with 3.5 was better, but I feel that dumbing down the game for a starter doesn't help people learn to play the game as much as it makes them learn to play this stripped-down version. Once I moved on to the core books, I still felt as though I didn't have much of a grasp on the rules.

On the other hand, with all the good examples and explanations in D&D for Dummies, I think any new player would have an easy time understanding how the game works afterward. I've only used it once for a new player, but he seemed to pick it up very quickly after giving it a quick read-through.

Okay. Since your last statement made clear that you believe it's okay to insult others, there is nothing I can do but disconsider your posts from now on.

For the rest, please continue with the relevant discussion.

Boo-hoo. Whatever will I do without your attention? Twist my words all you want, I never said it was OK to insult others. What I said was that I don't care if trolls got offended. If that offends you, well......again, tough.

Sebastian, for the record, I have no thoughts of painting all 4Eers with a broad brush because of the actions of a few. Just like I don't judge all people by what a select few from a group do. I just took offense when I started seeing hypocrisy and attacks aimed at an RPG developer who expressed an opinion.
My defense of him would have been the same if he was being assaulted by 3.5ers or Pathfinders.

You know, I have to say, I think that a good solution to this problem might be to release a new 4th Edition D&D for Dummies.

I don't think they'll do that.

;-)

Sebastian, for the record, I have no thoughts of painting all 4Eers with a broad brush because of the actions of a few. Just like I don't judge all people by what a select few from a group do. I just took offense when I started seeing hypocrisy and attacks aimed at an RPG developer who expressed an opinion.
My defense of him would have been the same if he was being assaulted by 3.5ers or Pathfinders.

I figured as much, but it's good to hear. And I agree completely regarding the attacks on Chris Pramas. He deserves way better than to be called a hater and have his well thought out views disregarded.

4th Edition for Dummies

Please note this is a LINK. It is not a slam. I repeat, a LINK.

Edit: Gah! Beaten by the Rambling Scribe (more like Speedy Scribe I'd say) :)

4th Edition for Dummies

Please note this is a LINK. It is not a slam. I repeat, a LINK.

Well they did release one for "D&D" before... so it's not too surpising...

Nameless wrote:

You know, I have to say, I think that a good solution to this problem might be to release a new 4th Edition D&D for Dummies.

I don't think they'll do that.

;-)

Clearly I failed my Search check. I knew I should have searched Amazon instead of Chapters. :)

Alright, so there we go! July! That's not far away at all. I bet that'll help teach the game better than the start product in November will. This is my prediction, based on the 3.0 started product.

Though, I do still use the counters from that set...

I'll be the first to admit that WotC's track record on introductory products is...not stellar... Though, then again, I never played the 3.5 intro product. Maybe that kicked ass. I know the 3.0 intro product got bad reviews.

It was not good. When you levelled up, they didn't let you pick feats, they just assigned them to you. I thought this was a pretty poor decision considering 3E was all about choice at the time. Plus you couldn't go further than level 3.

So hopefully the 4E one will be better, for everyone's sake.

Heathansson wrote:

Have you ever heard of Arthur Anderson Accounting?

Dude, that's so apples to oranges, I can't even begin to grapple with it. It's not like the accounting industry was in danger of dying because no one wanted to buy accounting services anymore. Look, we're fundamentally on the same page. We want the hobby to grow and not die. Whether it's 4e or Pathfinder or Exalted, it doesn't really matter. But at the end of the day, WotC is best positioned to lead the drive at this point in time. Is it possible they'll fumble and implode the brand? Sure. If they do, will someone else be there to step up? God, let's hope so. Is anyone big enough to push as hard as they can right now? No. Not even close.

It's not apples and oranges. Same thing as wooly mammoths; size doesn't guarantee survival. Look at the cockroach, man.

It's not apples and oranges. Same thing as wooly mammoths; size doesn't guarantee survival. Look at the cockroach, man.
Dinosaurs went extinct; cockroach has been around for hundreds of millions of years.
Same damn thing.

Okay, and everything living dies, but just because John McCain has health problems doesn't mean he's not the best candidate for president. Sure, WotC could fold, but that doesn't have anything to do with the fact that they are still the best positioned company to introduce new players to the game at this time.

I am Chris Pramas!

...

Ok, having read this wiki-article on the game: I really want to find a copy of it.

LOL
It makes me happy.

It is soooooo worth picking up HoL, even if you have to eBay it. It's suppliment Buttery Wholesomeness is a scream as well.

Man go to work and everyone gets all angsty again. Time to think up more trivia!

Heathansson wrote:

It's not apples and oranges. Same thing as wooly mammoths; size doesn't guarantee survival. Look at the cockroach, man.
Dinosaurs went extinct; cockroach has been around for hundreds of millions of years.
Same damn thing.

Okay, and everything living dies, but just because John McCain has health problems doesn't mean he's not the best candidate for president. Sure, WotC could fold, but that doesn't have anything to do with the fact that they are still the best positioned company to introduce new players to the game at this time.

And I feel that the fact that they not only have a track record of failure in this endeavour, but continue to plug away at it with the same tired bullwinklesque strategy of "this time for sure! Preth-to!" means that regardless of their own corporate girth, they will fail.

OK a little trivia for the WoD fans:

(it may be a little easy ..but hey I just got home)

What 'lost' clan of vampires was known for their healing powers? What weird disfigurement did they sport? Which other vampire clan came into being by diablerizing the lost clan's leader Saulot? And what was the name of their healing power?

Sorry for being a dick.
Some of my fence blew over, and I have to put it up this weekend, instead of doing whatever.
I need to stop.
I'm never opening the arrowhead on this 4e thing again.
Out.

3.5 and 4th Edition and Pathfinder CAN all coexist.

Damn!!!!.. there goes my.."There can be only one!" Joke...

;-)

Kruelaid wrote:

Indiana Jones shooting the guy with the scimitar in Temple of Doom.

[nitpick]That was Raiders of the Lost Ark.[/nitpick]

Adding to Nitpickitry

It sure was.... Temple of Doom he lost his gun in the same situation.... My favorite scene in Temple of Doom :-)

Sorry for being a dick.

Some of my fence blew over, and I have to put it up this weekend, instead of doing whatever.
I need to stop.
I'm never opening the arrowhead on this 4e thing again.
Out.

Heathy, I wouldn't call you a dick for your posts. I see your point, and it is a good point. I don't blame you for not having any confidence whatsoever in WotC's ability to execute. I guess all I'm trying to say is that they have the greatest potential to open up the game to new players because of their resources at this time. Those resources don't appear to grant them any extra competence and their launch of 4e is has shown that they are capable of wasting those resources in a spectacularly incompetent way.

I'd also chime in that Paizo has an absolute ass-kicking business model. I can't believe WotC didn't steal it. Paizo may well be the monkey that survives and rebuilds should WotC ultimately fail.

right on.