Pathfinder Player Companion: Disciple's Doctrine (PFRPG)

4.30/5 (based on 3 ratings)
Pathfinder Player Companion: Disciple's Doctrine (PFRPG)

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Trust and Your Faith Shall Provide

Having faith doesn't always mean worshiping a deity. From the far-flung corners of Golarion to the center of its major cities, many adherents find faith in small congregations dedicated to obscure beliefs and complex philosophies. Pathfinder Player Companion: Disciple's Doctrine explores a dozen of these cults and traditions, including such groups as the Esoteric Order of the Palatine Eye, Magnimar's mystery cults, the Oracular Council of Po Li in Tian Xia, the Prophets of Kalistrade, and many more. Learn more about these lesser-known groups, and discover the class and character options that true faith and deep traditions can unlock.

Inside this book you'll find:

  • A host of character traits for those with a background in devotion or dogma, including the natural ritualist faith trait for those who venerate the outdoors and the ecumenical social trait for those who grew up learning about many deities.
  • Archetypes for adherents of these doctrines, from the fist of the Godclaw warpriest for members of that Hellknight order to the seeker of enlightenment spiritualist dedicated to learning about Sangpotshi, the River of Life.
  • A wide array of spells for the faithful and those who have learned from them, including protective spells tied to the Kalistocrats of Druma and prophetic spells connected to the Harbingers of Fate.

This Pathfinder Player Companion is intended for use with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game and the Pathfinder campaign setting, but it can be easily incorporated into any fantasy world.

ISBN-13: 978-1-64078-011-8

Note: This product is part of the Pathfinder Player Companion Subscription.

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4.30/5 (based on 3 ratings)

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Good crunch with lots of useful world content.

5/5

The Monk, Ninja, and Spiritualist archetypes are the standouts here. Monk gets a style-switching elemental setup that’s pretty cool, Ninja gets an archetype (rare in itself, and you now have a non-Tien flavor option), and Spiritualist gets the largest skill bonuses I think I’ve seen, giving them a flavorful skill monkey option. The Ninja is penalized too much for not wearing a mask, which is rough with UC Rogue overshadowing it. The book has nice talents for various classes (Investigators can whip up extracts at combat-viable speeds, and Vigilantes get sizable knowledge bonuses) plus bloodline-esque options (Wizards get a Divination subschool that is powerful without being must-have, good for replacing the base school with, and Psychics get a discipline with discounted reach metamagic). Overall, enough stuff that I’ll solidly consider on the relevant classes for me to give a five-star rating.

One cool thing worth noting is the minimalist options. Medium and Occultist both get archetypes that don’t replace much, but subtly change things about the class. Neither is something I’d probably use much, but it is something I’d like seeing more of.

The last reviewer seems to have misunderstood the power of a trait. The only thing I might consider overpowered is the Spiritualist’s large untyped skill bonuses.


Flavorful if strong ootions

4/5


Pretty good, spread out

4/5

Good flavor text, solid art, and a lot of little cool things.

An Archtype for Oracle, Ranger, Monk (works with vinalla and unchained), Occultist, Warpriest, Ninja, Spiritualist, Skald, Samurai, and Medium.

Arcanist exploits, Bardic masterpieces, a Warpriest blessing, Investigator talents, Magus arcana, Occult rituals, a cavalier Order, a psychic discipline, a few new Variant channels, some Vigilante talents, some cool new spells, and a few Magic items.

Like most companion books, there are a few gems, several non optimal (but interesting) options, and a few clunkers that are laughably bad. Overall I like this book. 4 out of 5 stars.


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In my opinion, this is a book that may appeal to GM's as well. It gives some in depth information on several peripheral organizations that are really quite interesting.

Paizo Employee Developer

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kalindlara wrote:
When I finally build my Thunder and Fang character, I'm definitely looking forward to getting a Storval's Thunder and Storval's Fang matched set.

Yay!


To add to the absurd options, at least half of the Aspect of the Quah sub-traits are way overpowered, and one is completely ridiculous power level for a trait (2nd to last).


No one said you have to allow traits Majuba...

Sovereign Court

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Majuba wrote:
To add to the absurd options, at least half of the Aspect of the Quah sub-traits are way overpowered, and one is completely ridiculous power level for a trait (2nd to last).

No offense intended, but I think you may have missed something in the trait. ^_^

Spoiler:
It only works if you're a hunter or otherwise have the hunter's animal focus power, and it just switches out an option for that. So the storm roc power you mentioned is no different that the bear or bull options, just applying to a different ability score.


I see there is another one star review without a reason for it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

No, they gave a reason... they just didn't extrapolate.

Once they read a certain spoiler about how a certain power actually works they'll hopefully change their opinion.


Can you say what that power is?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

... 5 posts up.


I don't have the book, but how does that trait work with something like the Courtly Hunter or Scarab Stalker? Can I choose which focus to give up, or does it have to be a specific one? Because many Hunters really wouldn't mind giving up the Bear focus for... well, just about anything. And one of the versions with a variant list could probably find something to give up for some kind of stat boost (the nature of which hasn't been publicly revealed.)

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'd say they work, you just need Animal Focus and an Animal Foci to give up.


What's the Book Bound magus arcana about ?


Can anyone tell me what advantage the Elemental Strike class feature gives? I see no point to choosing after. Perhaps i'm missing a clever use or just reading it wrong. If anything, won't it hurt when trying to use some of those style feats?


Only got a brief chance to scan the Occult stuff, but first impression was that the Occultist archetype is useless, the Spiritualist archetype is neutral and ok for flavor, and the Psychic discipline combines strong discipline powers with a pretty unfortunate bonus spell list.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
TTDScoop wrote:
Can anyone tell me what advantage the Elemental Strike class feature gives? I see no point to choosing after. Perhaps i'm missing a clever use or just reading it wrong. If anything, won't it hurt when trying to use some of those style feats?

You do extra damage a limited number of times per day, like a limited flaming weapon, only you get to change the elemental damage type. That lets you get around resistances and match whatever style you’re using to get bonus damage.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Xenocrat wrote:
Only got a brief chance to scan the Occult stuff, but first impression was that the Occultist archetype is useless, the Spiritualist archetype is neutral and ok for flavor, and the Psychic discipline combines strong discipline powers with a pretty unfortunate bonus spell list.

The Occultist archetype is flexible. You can move your points at no cost, which lets you stock up in a useful resonant power (like Transmutation) and shift points over to spend on weird utility powers (like Divination). If you run out of Evocation blasts, you can stock up between fights. It’s a pretty minamalist archetype, but it’s useful for people who don’t like trying to predict their daily needs in advance.

Spiritualist archetype can get some amazing perception or social skill bonuses. I don’t know of any other constant level-to-skill bonuses?

Psychic assessment seems about right. I really like putting reach on curse spells, so I’d consider it when not playing Rebirth.

———

On another note, I think I’ll be replacing the base Divination school power with the subschool in here. It’s strong, but not auto-pick for high level rocket tag.


Can someone tell me what the Convert Wand does?
Thank You


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Elemental Monk is really awkwardly written. They way it's written makes it look like the archetype trades out every single bonus feat the Monk gets for the ability to use Elemental Fist, and then ancillary features get traded out for the ability to use other feats. I get what the idea was, but that makes the archetype look WAY worse than it is when the first thing someone's going to think is "It trades out ALL the bonus feats for ONE?"

Also, their Plane Shift ability is oddly written. The current wording says "It costs 1 ki to transport 7 creatures. Adding an additional creature is 1 ki." Is that 1 ki to transport all 7, then additional ki for every creature over 7, or 1 ki per creature as a flat cost, with a max of 7?

Dark Archive

nighttree wrote:

What's the Book Bound magus arcana about ?

It lets you gain a bonus to concentration checks on your next round as an immediate action if you are wielding your spellbook in your off hand.


QuidEst wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Only got a brief chance to scan the Occult stuff, but first impression was that the Occultist archetype is useless, the Spiritualist archetype is neutral and ok for flavor, and the Psychic discipline combines strong discipline powers with a pretty unfortunate bonus spell list.
Psychic assessment seems about right. I really like putting reach on curse spells, so I’d consider it when not playing Rebirth.

The free metamagic at half phrenic cost (most spell level boosters cost 2 points/level) is pretty crazy, it seems like it lets you break the usual level caps, which even Spell Perfection doesn’t. So a Persistent Plane Shift or very long range Euphoric Tranquility or Imprisonment seem allowed.

I hate the spell list (other than at 1st and 3rd level) enough that I can’t call it overpowered, though. It’s nice to see Transformation pull ahead of a late access Ethereal Jaunt as the go to “oh, please, not this again” of psychic discipline bonus spells.


QuidEst wrote:
TTDScoop wrote:
Can anyone tell me what advantage the Elemental Strike class feature gives? I see no point to choosing after. Perhaps i'm missing a clever use or just reading it wrong. If anything, won't it hurt when trying to use some of those style feats?
You do extra damage a limited number of times per day, like a limited flaming weapon, only you get to change the elemental damage type. That lets you get around resistances and match whatever style you’re using to get bonus damage.

Sorry, i was trying to be non-spoilery and i think my question became vague. I know how the Elemental Fist works. Im just not sure how the features added benefit helps at all. Normally you choose the element before you strike but Elemental Strike lets you chose after. How does that impact it at all? Am i missing something?


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TTDScoop wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
TTDScoop wrote:
Can anyone tell me what advantage the Elemental Strike class feature gives? I see no point to choosing after. Perhaps i'm missing a clever use or just reading it wrong. If anything, won't it hurt when trying to use some of those style feats?
You do extra damage a limited number of times per day, like a limited flaming weapon, only you get to change the elemental damage type. That lets you get around resistances and match whatever style you’re using to get bonus damage.
Sorry, i was trying to be non-spoilery and i think my question became vague. I know how the Elemental Fist works. Im just not sure how the features added benefit helps at all. Normally you choose the element before you strike but Elemental Strike lets you chose after. How does that impact it at all? Am i missing something?

That's exactly what I meant about it being really awkwardly written. The trade is just Stunning Fist for Elemental Fist, but the ability throws in other stuff alongside it for some reason.

...Although you do have a point. On re-reading it the main benefit of Elemental Strike is supposedly being able to apply the elemental damage choice after landing the hit, but applying the effect before or after makes no difference since you're either blindly guessing or you already know what element works best. A change would be being able to apply elemental fist itself on a successful hit, but that's not what the ability does.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Oh, huh. I misread Elemental Fist. I thought the feat made you pick one element upon feat selection. I’m guessing the author misread it as well.


QuidEst wrote:
Oh, huh. I misread Elemental Fist. I thought the feat made you pick one element upon feat selection. I’m guessing the author misread it as well.

gotta love archetype features that do nothing. Le sigh...


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TTDScoop wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Oh, huh. I misread Elemental Fist. I thought the feat made you pick one element upon feat selection. I’m guessing the author misread it as well.
gotta love archetype features that do nothing. Le sigh...

It does though. It trades out Stunning Fist for Elemental Fist. It's just not a great trade, since Monk of the Four Winds gives a bonus on top of trading it out.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
TTDScoop wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Oh, huh. I misread Elemental Fist. I thought the feat made you pick one element upon feat selection. I’m guessing the author misread it as well.
gotta love archetype features that do nothing. Le sigh...

It’s still getting you the feat either eight or ten levels early, depending on which Monk type you’re using.


Unflappable Mien is a pretty cool spell, although I'm not sure how useful the 5' push back is. If it's a full attack they can probably just 5' step back to finish, but if it's a grapple does the 5' knockback break the grapple or do you get dragged with them?

Silver Crusade

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rysky wrote:

No, they gave a reason... they just didn't extrapolate.

Once they read a certain spoiler about how a certain power actually works they'll hopefully change their opinion.

*wateches tumbleweed*

Grand Lodge Contributor

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Xenocrat wrote:
Unflappable Mien is a pretty cool spell, although I'm not sure how useful the 5' push back is. If it's a full attack they can probably just 5' step back to finish, but if it's a grapple does the 5' knockback break the grapple or do you get dragged with them?

I believe it would resolve before the grapple attempt. Assuming the player was using unflappable mien it would look something like this:

A theoretic game wrote:


GM: The grapple-master moves up to you and attempts to grapple you.

Player: I have unflappable mein cast; he feels a field of force blocking him. Does he still want to try and grapple me?

GM: Yeah!

Player: Ok, I release the force energy dealing <a decent amount> of damage and he needs to make a Fortitude save.

GM: He rolls a natural 1 and is pushed back 5 feet; you are now out of range of his reach. The grapple fails.

Player: Phew!

A developer or designer would have to weigh in on this to know for sure, but that was the original intention.


Andrew Hoskins wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Unflappable Mien is a pretty cool spell, although I'm not sure how useful the 5' push back is. If it's a full attack they can probably just 5' step back to finish, but if it's a grapple does the 5' knockback break the grapple or do you get dragged with them?

I believe it would resolve before the grapple attempt. Assuming the player was using unflappable mien it would look something like this:

A theoretic game wrote:


GM: The grapple-master moves up to you and attempts to grapple you.

Player: I have unflappable mein cast; he feels a field of force blocking him. Does he still want to try and grapple me?

GM: Yeah!

Player: Ok, I release the force energy dealing <a decent amount> of damage and he needs to make a Fortitude save.

GM: He rolls a natural 1 and is pushed back 5 feet; you are now out of range of his reach. The grapple fails.

Player: Phew!

A developer or designer would have to weigh in on this to know for sure, but that was the original intention.

Thanks.

I think that’s a reasonable (but not necessary) reading of it as published, and was actually my first interpretation, but being able to “nope!” a grapple or touch attack seemed a bit strong as a 3rd level spell that doesn’t require an immediate action and has a healthy duration.

Grand Lodge Contributor

Xenocrat wrote:
Andrew Hoskins wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Unflappable Mien is a pretty cool spell, although I'm not sure how useful the 5' push back is. If it's a full attack they can probably just 5' step back to finish, but if it's a grapple does the 5' knockback break the grapple or do you get dragged with them?

I believe it would resolve before the grapple attempt. Assuming the player was using unflappable mien it would look something like this:

A theoretic game wrote:


GM: The grapple-master moves up to you and attempts to grapple you.

Player: I have unflappable mein cast; he feels a field of force blocking him. Does he still want to try and grapple me?

GM: Yeah!

Player: Ok, I release the force energy dealing <a decent amount> of damage and he needs to make a Fortitude save.

GM: He rolls a natural 1 and is pushed back 5 feet; you are now out of range of his reach. The grapple fails.

Player: Phew!

A developer or designer would have to weigh in on this to know for sure, but that was the original intention.

Thanks.

I think that’s a reasonable (but not necessary) reading of it as published, and was actually my first interpretation, but being able to “nope!” a grapple or touch attack seemed a bit strong as a 3rd level spell that doesn’t require an immediate action and has a healthy duration.

Perhaps, but it also does nothing for weapon attacks with manufactured weapons... so... It's not fool-proof. Also, as pointed out, it doesn't prevent a full-round attack if the attacker starts their turn in melee range (and assuming nothing preventing a 5-foot step). Compare this spell to say... nuking a room with a fireball. Seems balanced.

If a GM wanted to rule that it's resolved after the attack that triggers the force damage and knock-back, then I'd say that it's up to the GM to decide if forced movement ends a grapple. You can find arguments for and against in this thread.

Personally, I'd be understanding about a GM who wanted to rule in either direction. I can only help their decision along by giving my intentions.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:

No, they gave a reason... they just didn't extrapolate.

Once they read a certain spoiler about how a certain power actually works they'll hopefully change their opinion.

Indeed. Thank you Kalindlara.


Re: Aspect of the Quah: Am I missing something, or is it asking for a class feature that doesn't exist?

Quote:
You must be a hunter or have access to the animal aspect class feature to select this trait...

I was wondering if classes with a similar ability (like the totemic skald) could benefit from the trait, but that also begs the question of how you could wild shape into a cliff or a will-o-wisp, so I'm guessing not.

Paizo Employee Developer

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pounce wrote:

Re: Aspect of the Quah: Am I missing something, or is it asking for a class feature that doesn't exist?

Quote:
You must be a hunter or have access to the animal aspect class feature to select this trait...

I believe the intent was to require the animal focus class feature, like a hunter.


Andrew Hoskins wrote:
I'd say that it's up to the GM to decide if forced movement ends a grapple. You can find arguments for and against in...

This actually involves a question of core grapple rules which Paizo has declined to address so far in spite of impacting LOTS of situations even just in Core Rules. Search my posts for "grapple movement" to get more specifics than are in that thread.

Essentially, grapple contains no "sticky" clause to ensuring target remains adjacent (or within reach) if grappler moves (which they undoubtedly can with abilities like Kraken 'you aren't considered grappled'), yet it also contains no clause ending grapple immediately upon grappler not being adjacent/within reach - although it's reasonable to require that to maintain the grapple (the action on their next turn, which they can move before doing), although I'm not sure even that is 100% clear, neither with "Maintain" counting as attack itself... Same with "Escape from Grapple", which if an attack requires the target (controller) be in reach (which may not be case if controller has reach advantage), while if not true the grappled character can ALWAYS try "Escape from Grapple" even if they cannot reach controller. It is only after end of next turn if they fail to Maintain Grapple that the grappled condition ends.

There is also question on nature of grappled condition's "no movement" limitation, namely does that apply only to the grappled creature's (normally both grapplers, but not always, see above) own self-initiated/ normal movement, or does it apply to ANY movement including by 'outside' forces? Which could include the Force spell discussed here, Bullrush, or even having the floor beneath be Distentigrated and gravity kick in. (or characters grappled while riding flying mount have mount killed from beneath them, etc) In scenario where both Grapplers suddenly have no floor to stand on, do they both float in mid-air? What if one is still standing on solid ground - the controller or the target?

IMHO the difference in wording between Grappled condition and the (anchored) Entangled condition does indicate a difference that Grappled only restricts "self-movement" but others can disagree on that. Notably there is no means defined to mechanically contest a 'forced movement' vs Grappled situation. Which plausibly could use opposed CMB or CL vs CMD (possibly increased vs normal Grapple escape check), but there is nothing in RAW to give basis for that, so if one wants to rule that Grapple movement restriction only applies to normal self-movement and NOT 'external'/forced movement, then by RAW those would work exactly the same as if the target were not grappled at all. (such forced-movement could occur while not immediately ending grappled condition, although it does end if not maintained on controller's next turn)

And of course, teleporting can be viewed as not strictly 'movement' at all, so one could travel very far distance while the grappled condition still continues until it is not maintained on controller's next turn.

Now one can house-rule these situations to one's liking (although it's very advisable to have strong grasp of full issue first), but that isn't saying much re: state of official rules.


It would be very good generally and especially for the PathfinderWiki to have the organizational symbols on the Inside Front Cover of this book added to the CUP - pretty please.

Thanks

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