Is this unfair to the players?

Fair is relative. It really depends on how the group gained the quasit's ire. If they went through it's summer home already and took the quasit's things - yes. Yes, it is warranted that the hammer comes down. If the PC group accidently delayed the quasit's plan, or succeeded in preventing the quasit's minions from doing their appointed task, then it is more likely the quasit would seek information about the goals of the group before doing something drastic - or even changing plans to mitigate further interference (read, foreshadowing distant events that might tie into what the group has been heading towards).

Anyway, the quasit doesn't have to leave the message - can just hire a messanger to deliver it. If the group is smart enough to realize no one should know where they are, then reward them for their caution - no explosive rune attack. If curiosity gets to them, boom. No one tells the group they have to immediately go to the dungeon after said attack either. Give them time to heal and collect information. This gives the quasit time to prepare, maybe hire a hit on the PCs too (something more level appropriate to give the PCs more XP before they have to face the quasit).

I think having the players fight enemies who are high CR is a great idea, it forces them to think critically about the encounter and play intelligently.

I hope your approval of this is somewhat conditional and it depends in part on just how high the CR is. There's no justification for demanding a bunch of fifth level characters fight a pit fiend and win.

One of the major problems with the planned encounter is not that it's "high CR." It's that it's "stupidly and unfairly high CR." The math has been done, and this is an encounter "balanced" for characters of nearly triple the level they are currently at.

MrCharisma wrote:

I think having the players fight enemies who are high CR is a great idea, it forces them to think critically about the encounter and play intelligently.

I hope your approval of this is somewhat conditional and it depends in part on just how high the CR is. There's no justification for demanding a bunch of fifth level characters fight a pit fiend and win.

One of the major problems with the planned encounter is not that it's "high CR." It's that it's "stupidly and unfairly high CR." The math has been done, and this is an encounter "balanced" for characters of nearly triple the level they are currently at.

When this campaign started, I asked my players, "I'm willing to grant you guys more and better treasure, but know that combat difficulty may increase, as a result." They already agreed to this, unanimously.

When the party was level 1, they faced a CR 3 Skeleton Champion, and managed to survive.

I'm saying that difficulty spikes are not unheard of, in this campaign, or by this party.

When the party was level 1, they faced a CR 3 Skeleton Champion, and managed to survive.

So, because they can handle a CR+2 encounter, which is a typical boss fight, they should be able to handle a CR+6 encounter, which is absurdly unfair?

With a 5 person party, far better equipped than a standard level 3 group, Yes.

With a 5 person party, far better equipped than a standard level 3 group, Yes.

Since you've obviously decided that this is a good idea, and the near-unanimous disapproval of everyone on this thread hasn't even registered, let alone shifted your opinion....

Why did you bother creating this thread in the first place?

Here's what you do, you tell them they receive a mysterious letter and don't give them anymore details. If they are stupid enough to open it without doing the detect traps, magic, evil, etc. Then its all on them.
Its called Role-playing, expect the unexpected. lol(laughs evilly in the background!)

With a 5 person party, far better equipped than a standard level 3 group, Yes.

I always explain this to new GM's in terms they understand:

It's the same thing in Pathfinder, using levels for age. If you're party level 15 facing a CR 20 or 21 encounter isn't that big a deal, especially if you're well equipped. At level 1 facing a CR 6 or 7 can get you killed quickly. Imagine a party of 1st levels taking on a Young Black Dragon (CR-7).

Orfamay Quest wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

I think having the players fight enemies who are high CR is a great idea, it forces them to think critically about the encounter and play intelligently.

I hope your approval of this is somewhat conditional and it depends in part on just how high the CR is. There's no justification for demanding a bunch of fifth level characters fight a pit fiend and win.

One of the major problems with the planned encounter is not that it's "high CR." It's that it's "stupidly and unfairly high CR." The math has been done, and this is an encounter "balanced" for characters of nearly triple the level they are currently at.

When this campaign started, I asked my players, "I'm willing to grant you guys more and better treasure, but know that combat difficulty may increase, as a result." They already agreed to this, unanimously.

When the party was level 1, they faced a CR 3 Skeleton Champion, and managed to survive.
I'm saying that difficulty spikes are not unheard of, in this campaign, or by this party.

Nobody on this thread knows the party, or the encounter as well as you do, so really we're all just guessing here. I think a couple of people have been a bit too reactionary, but their points are still valid.

You've asked the thread for advice, and it's almost unanimously been "Make it easier for the PC's".
One thing to remember is that at this level, even the Martial characters tend to be fairly squishy. Even if they have Magic gear that triples their damage output and their AC is in the heavens, their HP is low enough that one bad round can end the party's tank.

The other thing to remember is that Character Death should be something that comes from player mistakes, not GM design.
The players have to know the *rules of the encounter. If you've never used invisibility against them before and they get sneak-attacked for 1-bazzilion-d6 damage by an invisible rogue, you're changing the rules on them unfairly. If they've been fighting invisible creatures for the last 2 campaigns and said rogue sneaks up on them, it's really their own fault for not being prepared. Having Explosive Runes that could send characters into negative HP just appear without warning is kind of changing the rules on them (unless your party has an equally ridiculous healing capacity). If your Sorcerer only has one 3rd level spell, chances are s/he really likes that spell, so maybe the party comes across a dead adventurer near the lair who's holding the charred remains of a letter in his crispy black hands (or something similar). Your idea to trap a hallway with 1d6 runes is a good one.

You've asked this thread what they think, and they've looked at it and (whithout knowing the encounter or players as well as you do) most people think you're looking at a TPK. Play the encounter how you want to, but it's probably worth investing some time into a contingency plan. What will you do if the party isn't up to it? Do they have a chance to escape if things go south? Will someone show up to save the day? Maybe in the event of a TPK they all wake up in the dungeon or something?
Basically, if the people in this thread looked at this encounter and thought "That looks unfair", chances are your players will too. If they die and think "That was unfair, there's nothing I could have done", that's on you. (If they win/survive when it was "unfair" they might feel bad-ass, but it's a risk)

*By "Rules of the Encounter" I don't mean any actual rules, I mean the social contract between you and the other players. The idea of RPG's is to have players react to the GM's scenario. If they don't get a chance to react, they're not getting a chance to play.

I think the quasit, playing to her strengths, using good tactics, has a high probability of killing one or two of the party, and if things happen to go very poorly, result in a TPK.

I would suggest going through with the explosive runes, if you know, numerically, it WILL not kill them, and then, after healing, taking a break, going back to town, or otherwise recuperating, having them experience CR2 worth of kobolds, using spot on tactics. This will especially drive home the lesson, much more so, then explosive runeing them, and then moving into boss fight.

Soilent wrote:

With a 5 person party, far better equipped than a standard level 3 group, Yes.

Since you've obviously decided that this is a good idea, and the near-unanimous disapproval of everyone on this thread hasn't even registered, let alone shifted your opinion....

Why did you bother creating this thread in the first place?

Probably the same reason a lot of people come onto the forum, and ask if they did the right thing with their group, and then ignore any negative feedback. The OP wasn't looking for criticism, they were hoping to have their actions validated. That way when the GM gets an accidental TPK he can say "Hey, I asked on the Paizo forums, and they all said it was cool."

If you want to make it exciting have the letter addressed to them but have someone else read it and die.

The lesson that someone is out there hunting them is clear. But in no way should the sorcerer be able to MAKE SURE the letter is only read by the PCs.

So yes the warnings there, they get an idea someone's after them. But not at the cost of walking into a room and dying.

This actually is hilarious and a great idea. Have a courier deliver and read the letter to the PC's, then describe the look of horror on his face as he realizes the letter is signed "Sincerely, Explosive Runes".

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Soilent wrote:

With a 5 person party, far better equipped than a standard level 3 group, Yes.

Since you've obviously decided that this is a good idea, and the near-unanimous disapproval of everyone on this thread hasn't even registered, let alone shifted your opinion....

Why did you bother creating this thread in the first place?

Probably the same reason a lot of people come onto the forum, and ask if they did the right thing with their group, and then ignore any negative feedback. The OP wasn't looking for criticism, they were hoping to have their actions validated. That way when the GM gets an accidental TPK he can say "Hey, I asked on the Paizo forums, and they all said it was cool."

My initial post should have had more information, I agree.

But I learned a great deal from some people in this thread about how to go on from here.

I did not just come looking for validation, I came looking for help brainstorming ideas.

You don't have to be a Judgy Jason about it.

Cavall wrote:

If you want to make it exciting have the letter addressed to them but have someone else read it and die.

The lesson that someone is out there hunting them is clear. But in no way should the sorcerer be able to MAKE SURE the letter is only read by the PCs.

So yes the warnings there, they get an idea someone's after them. But not at the cost of walking into a room and dying.

This actually is hilarious and a great idea. Have a courier deliver and read the letter to the PC's, then describe the look of horror on his face as he realizes the letter is signed "Sincerely, Explosive Runes".

Or, alternatively, go with a real classic. Have the letter consist of a single line.

"Guess what I prepared this morning?"

Probably the same reason a lot of people come onto the forum, and ask if they did the right thing with their group, and then ignore any negative feedback. The OP wasn't looking for criticism, they were hoping to have their actions validated. That way when the GM gets an accidental TPK he can say "Hey, I asked on the Paizo forums, and they all said it was cool."

There will be nothing "accidental" about this TPK.

Since the letter is in the sorcerer's house, the PCs deserve whatever they get for poking around where they don't belong. A simple detect magic spell will reveal the letter is magical, and a DC 28 Perception check will reveal it is a magical trap (same DC to disable with trapfinding).

Since the letter is in the sorcerer's house, the PCs deserve whatever they get for poking around where they don't belong.

In that case, make the sorcerer a pit fiend instead of a quasit, since there's obviously no concerns at all about level-appropriate encounters. Make it a married pair of pit fiends,....

If all you want to do is kill characters instead of making fun encounters for players, why limit yourself? In fact, why bother with the encounters? Simply declare the characters dead and move on to the next event.

This example is level-appropriate. Perhaps it is just my experience, but players are a tough and resourceful lot, with a fool's luck. A simple cantrip defeats this trap. Even if triggered, it deals an average of 21 points of damage in a relatively small area. My players would never all stick their noses in the same few squares while going through an enemy spellcaster's private stash.

The problem with this kind of 'trap' is that it convinces your players to not interact with their environment any more. You will not be able to drop hints and clues with anonymous letters ever again as your players will dispose of them without reading them.

The main reason this kind of trick works is metagaming. The players suspend their caution to interact with a plot hook. Much like they immediately accept some random stranger into the party when you introduce a new PC.

This example is level-appropriate.

In what universe is CR=APL+6 a level appropriate encounter?

Lord Kakabel wrote:

This example is level-appropriate.

In what universe is CR=APL+6 a level appropriate encounter?

I think he's looking just at the letter, not the Quasit after it.

My players have earned the ire of a villainous sorcerer.

The sorcerer has taken to following them around, while flying and invisible.

The players (4 players) are currently level 3, and the sorcerer is level 6.

I'm considering having him leave a letter delivered to one of the players, with the letter containing Explosive Runes.

Is this unfair to the players?

Yes. You're actually using a flying, invisible caster as an enemy. Against a party too low level to have any counters to flight. This is the sort of theorycraft people bring up to justify claims of unassailable caster supremacy and you're actually using it as an encounter.

What the ever loving #### are you thinking?