Pathfinder Player Companion: Healer's Handbook (PFRPG)

Luthorne, you might want to have a look at the Elemental Saturations section of Occult Realms. I think you'll find the fire saturation's wild talent quite to your liking. ^_^

Luthorne, you might want to have a look at the Elemental Saturations section of Occult Realms. I think you'll find the fire saturation's wild talent quite to your liking. ^_^

Oh, I do like purging flame quite a bit. It's just...not always viable to travel to Minkai to perform a sidequest to unlock it in many games.

Hm... I'll give you that. I'm used to GMing, and thus, being able to help customize content for my players.

In more straight-laced campaigns, I can definitely see that being an issue. ^_^

The more non-caster healing options there are the better.

Hm... I'll give you that. I'm used to GMing, and thus, being able to help customize content for my players.

Tangential Tale:

For example, in my Emerald Spire campaign, I placed a special event on one of the floors so that the party's protean-emulating telekineticist could get access to Primal Aether. It's been very... interesting.

In more straight-laced campaigns, I can definitely see that being an issue. ^_^

Yeah, that's definitely optimal, but a lot of the GMs I've played under haven't been that interested in adapting things specifically for my characters, even outside of Pathfinder Society, so while I do think that elemental saturations are a cool idea, by default...they fall into the category of things you need to ask your GM about rather than assume will be available, if that makes sense?

Yeah, that's definitely optimal, but a lot of the GMs I've played under haven't been that interested in adapting things specifically for my characters, even outside of Pathfinder Society, so while I do think that elemental saturations are a cool idea, by default...they fall into the category of things you need to ask your GM about rather than assume will be available, if that makes sense?

Perfectly clear. ^_^

I hope the druidic herbalism uses actual magic items/effects and are not weak options.

I hope the druidic herbalism uses actual magic items/effects and are not weak options.

A menu of minor options that can optionally be taken in place of certain minor Druid features (like Qinggong Monk) would also be pretty cool.

A menu of minor options that can optionally be taken in place of certain minor Druid features (like Qinggong Monk) would also be pretty cool.

Honestly, more archetypes in this vein would be great - it's a very interesting design space. (They know it, too... you can see it in the unchained monk and the vigilante.)

I do have high hopes for this book... It's always bugged me just how inefficient healing is in pathfinder. Even if you focus your entire concept around healing, taking no other options, you're still just "alright" at healing until you can get access to the "Heal" and "Heal, Mass" spells. One spell slot worth of damage takes multiple spell slots worth of healing to get rid of, and that disparity has always turned me off of playing a healer (until I played Dreamscarred Press's Vitalist class with the focus of stealing health from enemies and giving it to allies).

I agree, it is a lot harder to specialize in healing especially if you do not have heal or mass heal.

I'm currently playing a Witch (well, Unlettered Arcanist) because as the solitary spellcaster of the party, I wanted something that could heal but also didn't want to play a cleric/oracle. Up until I got access to the "Heal" spell (14th level...), every single bit of healing I did was through wands because cure spells are not worth using spell slots (also why I didn't play a White Mage arcanist). Now that I have Heal, that's pretty much all of my 7th level spell slots because I can instantly bring someone back into the fight.

Will rangers be able to use druidic herbalism?
Please?

Subscribers should be getting this in the next week or so, correct? Cannot wait!

Subscribers should be getting this in the next week or so, correct? Cannot wait!

Shipping is the 9th through the 20th.

I know, less then a week away.

I was joking about the kineticist by the way. Mostly.

Man. I'm hype. I finally caved and got the Subscription to this line.

In my view, this book's success or failure rides entirely on giving non-magical classes a way to replace the cleric as the group's healer. Restoring HP is not enough. If you still need a divine caster to remove the maladies that actually kill an adventuring party then this book has no purpose.

In my view, this book's success or failure rides entirely on giving non-magical classes a way to replace the cleric as the group's healer. Restoring HP is not enough. If you still need a divine caster to remove the maladies that actually kill an adventuring party then this book has no purpose.

I can already give you the devs' answers: Either A. "Alchemist/investigator, because they're not divine" or B. "Scrolls and potions exist".

Well...gonna be honest here, I strongly suspect that in your view this book will have no purpose. In your view. But maybe I'm wrong.

Status Pending. Can't wait. I wonder what's in this besides what's listed. Also whatever "their own means" and "vigor" mean.

Arachnofiend wrote:

In my view, this book's success or failure rides entirely on giving non-magical classes a way to replace the cleric as the group's healer. Restoring HP is not enough. If you still need a divine caster to remove the maladies that actually kill an adventuring party then this book has no purpose.

I can already give you the devs' answers: Either A. "Alchemist/investigator, because they're not divine" or B. "Scrolls and potions exist".

The Alchemist list doesn't cut it because they get the spells late. It's pointless to rely on an Alchemist for your party's healing because you'll inevitably run into a malady that the Alchemist can't cure until a few levels later.

Scrolls don't cut it because "just UMD it" isn't an acceptable answer. Now, if there was a feat that made it so that, for the purposes of using scrolls and wands of spells in the conjuration (healing) school, you counted as a Cleric of equal level to your ranks in Heal, then THAT would be sufficient.

Ashram wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

In my view, this book's success or failure rides entirely on giving non-magical classes a way to replace the cleric as the group's healer. Restoring HP is not enough. If you still need a divine caster to remove the maladies that actually kill an adventuring party then this book has no purpose.

I can already give you the devs' answers: Either A. "Alchemist/investigator, because they're not divine" or B. "Scrolls and potions exist".

The Alchemist list doesn't cut it because they get the spells late. It's pointless to rely on an Alchemist for your party's healing because you'll inevitably run into a malady that the Alchemist can't cure until a few levels later.

Scrolls don't cut it because "just UMD it" isn't an acceptable answer. Now, if there was a feat that made it so that, for the purposes of using scrolls and wands of spells in the conjuration (healing) school, you counted as a Cleric of equal level to your ranks in Heal, then THAT would be sufficient.

lolnah, that second "feat" is literally the strength of a class feature and not a feat.

The real problem is we do not have non-caster healing focused class(es).

1)New Class- A healer class that relies on spell powers and supernatural abilities would be awesome. But a new class wouldn't be in a player companion book.

2)Kineticist- A healing focused positive energy kineticist element would be cool. But if we were getting such a thing I think we would know about it by now.

3)Archetypes- Some really good archetypes that grant classes channeling, lay on hands, mercies, fast healing, healing auras, etc. to non-caster classes. I doubt we will see too much of this since none of the archetypes we know about are non-casters and most of the rest will likely have caster ability of some kind.

4)Feats- We could get some really good feats for healing and curative options. But how powerful could a feat be in that ability.

5)Magic items- This would be a very likely option.

6)Mundane healing- the use of non-magical healing like mundane items, skills, and better ways of natural healing. There might be some options like these in there.

7)Other- Other options would healing/curative focused sorcerer bloodlines, psychic disciplines, rogue talents, alchemist discoveries, witch hexes, etc. I can see these working but doubt we will see too much of these ideas.

I hope at least one archetype will grant a class fast healing that is a constant effect, none of these x/day or x/rounds/minutes per level stuff.

Fast healing is completely overpowered as a permanent effect. Think about it. Combat finished? Great. I'm fully healed.

After.

Every.

Combat.

To make matters worse, I was playing a game where each player could ask for one special trait. I asked for Fast Healing 1.

We had no rogue.

I ran into traps, triggered them, I was fully healed. It trivialized ALL traps. It was very abusive. He removed that trait from me when he realized his mistake. Even fast healing 1 is broken.

Fast healing 1 is not broken, it does not protect you from the many nasty effects in the game and it will not save you in combat from any enemy that is a damage dealer or uses effect that bypass HP like ability damage/drain. Now regeneration would be broken for any character to have.

In fact some races could really use it such as constructs(Wyrwood) wich are hard to heal and races healed by negative energy(like Dhampirs) since most groups I have played with rarely use negative energy.

A smart DM could change up the traps to do effects other then HP damage or make it where you are timed to get through an area with traps so you can't sit there and wait to get healed. Also what where the other players doing while they waited for you to get healed?

Fast healing 1 is not broken, it does not protect you from the many nasty effects in the game and it will not save you in combat from any enemy that is a damage dealer or uses effect that bypass HP like ability damage/drain. Now regeneration would be broken for any character to have.

It's not about saving you in combat, it's about screwing up the resources economy which assumes that your party is at best running around with happysticks which do run out/get sundered/blown up on a failed save and at worst has to rely on limited castings of healing spells and channel energy uses.

Healing in combat, except for heal is never optimal nor desirable. Healing is all about the downtime.

Now, ring of regenration costs 90k. If you want to have a PC that grants fast healing to anyone, you need to budget this ability at around, say, 120k - since unlike the ring, the ability cannot be destroyed and can be switched around more easily than swapping a ring between people is. Given that the WBL of a level 20 character is just 880k AND that they need to blow most of it on the usual items needed, the ability you are talking about is something you could give to a level 19-20 or mythic/epic level PC.

In fact some races could really use it such as constructs(Wyrwood) wich are hard to heal and races healed by negative energy(like Dhampirs) since most groups I have played with rarely use negative energy.

A smart DM could change up the traps to do effects other then HP damage or make it where you are timed to get through an area with traps so you can't sit there and wait to get healed. Also what where the other players doing while they waited for you to get healed?

They're sitting together with you in a rope trick, like every sane adventuring party does.

You need to think less in terms "what is cool" and more in terms of "how does it fit into the existing system" and "how do people usually do things in D&D". Design "by cool" with no consideration for practical application gives you stuff like 3.5 ravid or the Sacred Geometry feat. They're both super cool and thematic, but utterly annoying in game.

Thing is, there are several ways to get unlimited HP healing;

Tuned Bowstring + Skald's Vigor (or Greater for whole party)
Drunken Master + Booze + Wholeness of Body (+ Sensei for whole party)
Tumor Familiar + Protector Archetype + Die for Your Master (+ Life Link from Life Oracle or Shaman for whole party)

Et cetera.

Thing is, there are several ways to get unlimited HP healing;

Tuned Bowstring + Skald's Vigor (or Greater for whole party)
Drunken Master + Booze + Wholeness of Body (+ Sensei for whole party)
Tumor Familiar + Protector Archetype + Die for Your Master (+ Life Link from Life Oracle or Shaman for whole party)

Et cetera.

None of which are results of conscious design, but rather of writer of spell A being not aware that combining it with item B, feat C and archetype D leads to things that should not be.

Fast healing 1 is not broken, it does not protect you from the many nasty effects in the game and it will not save you in combat from any enemy that is a damage dealer or uses effect that bypass HP like ability damage/drain. Now regeneration would be broken for any character to have.

In fact some races could really use it such as constructs(Wyrwood) wich are hard to heal and races healed by negative energy(like Dhampirs) since most groups I have played with rarely use negative energy.

A smart DM could change up the traps to do effects other then HP damage or make it where you are timed to get through an area with traps so you can't sit there and wait to get healed. Also what where the other players doing while they waited for you to get healed?

One of the main challenges in dungeons is resource management. You have X amount of potions and Y amount of heals. If you run out of heals, you need to rest. If you run out of potions you need to go back and buy more.

If you run into a trap, it whittles away at your HP and forces you to use a potion or heal that could have been used in combat. Not many traps, unless the DM is malevolent, auto kills people who trigger the trap.

So if you have fast healing 1, what's the point of having a rogue? Just let your char run in and trip all the traps. No need to use skill check. The traps, if they don't kill you, become trivial. No more wasting valuable resources such as potions (which cost gold), wands (which cost gold), or healing spells (which need to be saved for combat)

It trivializes a lot of content. Furthermore, after combat is over with, you don't need a heal. Just wait a few turns! Out of combat, 40 turns (if you are down by 40 hp) goes by instantly since that's only 240 seconds. That's 4 minutes. Four minutes of IN GAME time and you're back all the way up. So pretty much immediately when you get out of combat, you're fully healed. No need to do the, "Well, combat's over. Who needs a heal?" game. Healing essentially becomes an unlimited resource.

This is why it is not a permanent effect.

Thing is, there are several ways to get unlimited HP healing;

Tuned Bowstring + Skald's Vigor (or Greater for whole party)
Drunken Master + Booze + Wholeness of Body (+ Sensei for whole party)
Tumor Familiar + Protector Archetype + Die for Your Master (+ Life Link from Life Oracle or Shaman for whole party)

Et cetera.

There's a difference between, "That's an amazing combination you found that breaks the game a bit! Bravo!" and "Eh. Who cares about exploring neat obscure combinations. Let's just break the game from the beginning"

For 1) Finding neat combinations and going OUT OF YOUR WAY to achieve them is balanced by the fact that it makes it a little more powerful. But if you go out of your way to achieve those concepts, then other aspects of your character will falter.

2) Breaking the game from the beginning with a class that already has infinite fast healing doesn't reward people who find nifty combinations and everyone will be able to do it. Plus, it creates a situation where the devs are purposefully trivializing encounters.

It's also IMPOSSIBLE for every writer at paizo to have immediate knowledge of every option available.

1) There are multiple teams. One team handles the player companions. Another team handles the hard cover books.

2) There is so much information and combinations out there, that no one will memorize them all at any given moment and tune all of the abilities around every single combination that is possible. That's impossible to even comprehend doing.

3) Writers for games like paizo need to understand the balance that is possible within the book that they are writing in AND compare the balance of the individual skill or ability or feat or spell with others of that same level. They shouldn't look for combinations because the amount of various combinations are almost endless. They would never release books and they would never get any work done.

A smart DM could change up the traps to do effects other then HP damage or make it where you are timed to get through an area with traps so you can't sit there and wait to get healed. Also what where the other players doing while they waited for you to get healed?

In Neverwinter, the traps slow your movement (like caltrops) by inflicting a leg injury, or otherwise cause lasting effects that must be individually dealt with, other than just HP damage.

That seems like one option, although it would require adding some more wound conditions (other than the lamed condition applied already by caltrops) to the game, or just recycling preexisting conditions, like a trap that sprays acid in your face and leaves you dazzled until a Heal check or magical healing clears that up, or a trap that sprays you with skunky noxious fluid and renders you sickened (and easier to track?)until fed a counter-agent or neutralized in some way. Stuff that simple fast healing wouldn't fix, since it's not just HP damage.

btw. One class I would LOVE to be in this book is a Skald Archetype.

Level 1: Invigorating Chord. Fast healing 2 to everyone within 30 feet. This healing increases by 1 per every 5 levels of Skald. Replaces raging song. Counts as a performance.

level 3: Bloodline. Replaces your rage power at level 3 with a bloodline that can be granted to all party members. This replaces the rage power at level 3.

Level 5: Bloodrites. As a swift action, the Skald can use a round of bardic performance per level of spell to cast the cure wounds line of spells. (Cure moderate costs 2 rounds of bardic performance, etc). This replaces spell kenning.

Something like that would be pretty neat.

The fast healing would heal everyone in the party a little bit over time OR you can do a burst of healing on one person by using your future healing over time performances while maintaining the concept of a combat character.

If a fighter archetype gave the class always active fast healing, then no one would complain the fighter "sucks";)

I would prefer a bard archetype that grants fast healing with bardic music.

The funny thing with the whole "It's impossible for the devs to know every single option!" is that Archives of Nethys and Ctrl+F exists. :v

The funny thing with the whole "It's impossible for the devs to know every single option!" is that Archives of Nethys and Ctrl+F exists. :v

Archives is not exaustive and you're still relying on Humans to check things, and do you think Paizo doesn't have their own in-house collection of everything?

That and you can't really search anything with "Does anything like Option B interact with Options D,L, and Z?"

A healing aura ability would be cool, aura that grants fast healing to allies/friendly creatures. The duration would be 1 round per level and the rounds do not need to be consecutive but must be spent in 1 round increments. The amount of fast healing would start at 1 but would increase to at least 5 if not 10 by level 20.

If a fighter archetype gave the class always active fast healing, then no one would complain the fighter "sucks";)

I would prefer a bard archetype that grants fast healing with bardic music.

And if a fighter archetype had the ability to one shot Gods at level 1. No one would complain the fighter sucks.

Your point?

The funny thing with the whole "It's impossible for the devs to know every single option!" is that Archives of Nethys and Ctrl+F exists. :v

It's impossible to consider every option available. No one said it's impossible to look up options. -_-

If a fighter can one shot a god, he wouldn't need fast healing, so what is your point?

None of which are results of conscious design, but rather of writer of spell A being not aware that combining it with item B, feat C and archetype D leads to things that should not be.

So... Ring of Regeneration then? :]

Basically, this 'thing that should not be' is indeed built right in to the game... with multiple ways of achieving it, some of which are very much conscious design.

They are just controlled by requiring time / effort to achieve.

If the existence of any form of constant Fast Healing 1 would 'break the game' then the availability of constant Regeneration 1 in the Core Rulebook means that the game has been 'broken' since day 1.

Or maybe some people are being a bit hyperbolic.

If a fighter can one shot a god, he wouldn't need fast healing, so what is your point?

Point is, if you give a class overpowering abilities that are game breaking, people won't complain that class is underpowered.

Dragon78 wrote:

If a fighter can one shot a god, he wouldn't need fast healing, so what is your point?

Point is, if you give a class overpowering abilities that are game breaking, people won't complain that class is underpowered.

I'm pretty sure some people still would.

Gorbacz wrote:

None of which are results of conscious design, but rather of writer of spell A being not aware that combining it with item B, feat C and archetype D leads to things that should not be.

So... Ring of Regeneration then? :]

Basically, this 'thing that should not be' is indeed built right in to the game... with multiple ways of achieving it, some of which are very much conscious design.

They are just controlled by requiring time / effort to achieve.

If the existence of any form of constant Fast Healing 1 would 'break the game' then the availability of constant Regeneration 1 in the Core Rulebook means that the game has been 'broken' since day 1.

Or maybe some people are being a bit hyperbolic.

The ring of regeneration is balanced by the cost. A level 10 has 105,000 gold worth of items. Total. The ring costs 90,000 gold. That ring is only logically available at around 16th level. That makes it not game broken because it's not actively really available to most parties. Most people play from levels 1-6 in most games. The ring of regeneration is definitely not available from levels 1-6.

The ring of regeneration is balanced by the cost. A level 10 has 105,000 gold worth of items. Total. The ring costs 90,000 gold. That ring is only logically available at around 16th level. That makes it not game broken because it's not actively really available to most parties. Most people play from levels 1-6 in most games. The ring of regeneration is definitely not available from levels 1-6.

Great.

So, as long as any hypothetical 'constant Fast Healing 1' ability were suitably restricted by level, cost, or some other mechanism it would be equally "balanced" and appropriate.

Let's face it. All characters at level 16+ are broken in some capacity. But it doesn't affect the vast vast majority of games. So it's a moot point.

A ring of regeneration is more powerful then just fast healing, it allows you to regrow lost limbs and organs and makes you immune to bleed.

I never said that the fighter archetype would gain fast healing at level one and even if it did it would more then likely be like a 1 HP a minute or even 10 minutes starting out.

If all characters at level 16 are "broken" then they are balanced;)

A ring of regeneration is more powerful then just fast healing, it allows you to regrow lost limbs and organs and makes you immune to bleed.

I never said that the fighter archetype would gain fast healing at level one and even if it did it would more then likely be like a 1 HP a minute or even 10 minutes starting out.

If all characters at level 16 are "broken" then they are balanced;)

What effects in game make you lose limbs and organs? And I'm not talking about crit decks or 3PP. Where, in the game, do rules obligatorily mandate that you lose a limb or an organ?

Bleed is a trivial hindrance given that any magical healing removes it entirely. Not to mention the fact that PF fights last 3-4 rounds on average, reducing the impact of any damage over time effects.