Everyman Unchained: Fighters (PFRPG) PDF

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Everyman Gaming LLC returns to their acclaimed Everyman Unchained series with an all-new unchained base class! Created by popular demand, the fighter finally gets his turn at the unchaining table with Everyman Unchained: Fighters!

Written by the mind behind some of the most innovative martial content, Everyman Unchained: Fighters takes many of the advances made to the fighter class in recent years and combines them together into a proper, 20-level base class complete with new class features and new options to choose from.

Everyman Unchained: Fighters includes:

The Unchained Fighter, a warrior who uses overwhelming stamina and determination honed by advanced weapon and armor trainings to defeat enemies with overwhelming martial skill.

An updated list of fighter weapon groups, including a compiled list of fan-favorite weapons from throughout the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game.

Three new advanced weapon groups that allow fighters to specialize in finesse, performance, and primitive weaponry.

Unchained versions of every fighter archetype from a vast assortment of Pathfinder Roleplaying Game hardcover that are compatible with the new base class presented within, ranging from the Advanced Player's Guide through Occult Adventures.

Four pages of new feats to customize your fighter, including often-requested abilities like Aerial Assault, as well as several new weapon mastery and armor mastery feats.

And much more!

With Everyman Gaming, innovation is never more than a page away!

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***** (based on 5 ratings)

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A must-have replacement for fighter

*****

I and another player in my groups immediately switched our fighters to the unchained version after buying this PDF. Alex's work is amazing as always. Just like the official Paizo unchained classes, unchained fighter is the new baseline. Get this, use this, never look back.


An Endzeitgeist.com review

*****

This re-design of the fighter-class clocks in at 46 pages, 1 page front cover, 1 page editorial, 1 page introduction/ToC, 3 pages of SRD, 2 pages of advertisement, leaving us with 38 pages of contents, so let's take a look!

The fighter. Know what? the last vanilla fighter anyone played for non-testing purposes in my group...was in 3.0. The class has no unique selling points, only receives a ton of feats, lacks skills to excel beyond combat and is just BOOORING. Heck, one of my players tried to play a talented fighter and switched characters because, even with the talented flexibility, he considered the class too boring.

So let's see if this redesign finally makes it work? The fighter remains a full BAB-class, gains all proficiencies (including tower shields and weapon group training), d10 HD, good Fort-saves...and 4 + Int skills per level. Thank the deities for the skills! 1st level and every even level thereafter nets a bonus feat, with 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter allowing the replacement of such a feat.

Armor training is situated at 3rd and 7th level, armor mastery at 19th and weapon training is gained at 1st level, choosing a group and gaining the weapon group's weapons - including the exotic weapons! Weapon mastery is gained at 20th level. Weapon training's bonuses are still increased at 5th level and every 4 levels thereafter - oh, and the fighter can just spend stamina to increase the weapon training bonus.

Wait...yep, the class thankfully has the stamina-mechanic of PFU completely integrated into its framework, with BAB + Con-mod denoting the pool-size and the regain conditions etc. all coming in Alexander Augunas' trademark precision. 2nd level retains bravery, which increases every 4 levels thereafter - so if you're like me and really like the Bravery feats by Rogue Genius Games, the respective base-line still exists. 3rd level provides second wind, which represents a swift action and stamina-expenditure based ability to gain temporary hit points - interesting here is that the cap of the temp hit points is oriented at the damage taken by the class, with higher levels (11th and 19th) also providing the options to do so at 11th and 19th level as a free/immediate action.

Starting at 4th level, the unchained fighter can use a move action to gain the benefits of a combat feat for 1 minute, at the cost of 3 stamina, providing some wild-card flexibility here. 5th level nets advanced weapon training, with 9th level and every 4 levels thereafter, one such option is gained. Originally featured in the Weapon Master's Handbook, this basically represents the on-steroids-version of this: From new weapon groups to Ultimate Charisma-support, sharing teamwork feats, additional daily uses for limited use tricks, battle trance, a Dazzling Display that makes action-economy-wise sense, dual-wielding chosen weapon group weapons, finessing non-finesse weapons, stamina-based parry, damage upgrades when finessing - and I haven't even come close to mentioning even half of the options available - so yes, fighters now have a serious array of different distinguishing abilities beyond feats.

This much required differentiation also extends to advanced armor training, with 7th level, 11th and 19th level providing one such choice from a seriously impressive, if briefer, list that includes a wide variety of defensive options, including DR, better CMD, being capable of protecting nearby allies, full sprinting in armor, quicker armor donning and even piecemeal armor training...oh, and scaling SR. Yes, the badass fighter is now no longer the sucker that jealously looks at the barbarian for things he ought to do to those spell-slingers. So yes, massive, massive customization options.

Now here is the thing: Even if the weapon training and armor training offer a metric TON of options, there is more to be found - namely fighter training options that you can choose to substitute either. Yes, I am not even kidding, the unchained fighter has a metric ton of even more options - with negative condition suppression powered by stamina, ranger traps, item mastery feats, improving the options for the aforementioned wild card option (which is btw. called martial spontaneity), mounts, etc. - and yes, some build upon one another. This is a gigantic array of unique tricks and, as we've come to expect from Alexander Augunas, he has skillfully woven the stamina-mechanic into the powerful options. The pdf also lists the respective weapon groups, advanced weapon groups - and better yet, uncommon weaponry from ultimate equipment has similarly been added, including a massive amount of tables listing all those aspects as and rules-relevant stats...so amazing. Have I btw. mentioned the finesse weapon group and the options it allows for in conjunction with the new options?

But this is not even close to reaching the density of crunch this offers: The book has a massive, colossal amount of archetypes modifies for the use with the unchained fighter: Airborne Ambusher, Archer, Armor Master, Brawler, Cad, Cavern Sniper, Crossbowman, Dirty Fighter, Dragoon, Foehammer, Free Hand Fighter, Gladiator, Mobile Fighter, Phalanx Soldier, Polearm Master, Roughrider, Savage Warrior, Sensate, Shielded Fighter, Tactician, Thunderstriker, Tower Shield Specialist, Two-Handed Fighter, Two-Weapon Warrior, Unarmed Fighter, Unbreakable, Weapon Master. I can't cover all of these in the detail I'd usually provide without bloating the reviews beyond belief- just let me say that the further tweaks of this massive array of additional options provide is amazing. They take all the customization options we expect and smoothly streamline them to fit the new chassis.

Oh, and obviously, for the fighter as the formerly-feat-centric class, this pdf also features a significant collection of different feats: We can find a feat for stamina-based save rerolls; we can find an option that allows for the ignoring of temporary physical ability score damages; quicker natural healing...and then there is the exceedingly cool fact that, yes, the feats come with combat tricks beyond the already neat benefits!!! So yes, the leitmotif here is MAXIMUM FLEXIBILITY.

Conclusion:

Editing and formatting are top-notch on both a formal and rules-language level. Layout adheres to a 2-column full-color standard with numerous Jacob Blackmon-artworks throughout - and yes, copious kitsune and nagaji included. The pdf comes fully bookmarked with nested bookmarks for your convenience.

Alexander Augunas delivers the class the fighter always was supposed to be: We retain the massive depth of combat tricks, but instead of making one-trick pony specialists that play alike in every single round, the unchained fighter not only has a colossal amount of customization options - the talented fighter had that as well. The accomplishment of the class lies definitely in the flexibility that is not restrained to the building path chosen, but to the options it allows the player to take within said paths: Even if you compare two fighters employing the same weaponry and roughly similar fighting styles, you will have differentiations between them, completely different experiences. The in-depth integration of the stamina-system further provides fun to the act of playing a fighter and adds a component of resource-management to the experience. In short: The unchained fighter provides a ton of player and character agenda - the increased skills per level and other abilities available mean that the fighter no longer has to impotently twiddle his thumbs while the barbs and rangers get to do all the non-combat fun stuff.

This rebuild of the fighter is the best I have seen so far and most certainly should be a required addition to any game that has players who want to play one; mechanically precise, fun and well-designed, chock-full of unique and fun options, this pdf is worth every cent of its asking price twice and deserves a final verdict of 5 stars + seal of approval and also receives a nomination as a candidate for my Top Ten of 2016. Very much required and from this point onward the point of reference that other fighter fixes will have to beat in order to have any raison d'être.

Endzeitgeist out.


FINALLY!!

*****

"Unchained Fighters" is another tangible step in Alexander Augunas' burgeoning career as an RPG/Pathfinder designer. I was always baffled by Pathfinder Unchained's lack of a rebuilt fighter and while I appreciate the options provided in the "Weapon Master's Handbook", said options came at too much of a cost for the core fighter. Everyman Gaming's "Unchained Fighters" provides a wealth of well constructed and creative options AND most importantly ... provides meaningful, well balanced boosts to the class.

My biggest criticism of the "Weapon Master's Handbook" was that the new advanced weapon and armor training options they provided were not baked into the fighter's core set of abilities. "Unchained Fighters" not only solves this issue in a smooth & easy way, but also provides some fantastic, empowering options:

CLASS FEATURES - Stamina, Second Wind, and Martial Spontaneity are elegant and useful abilities that should have existed with the first iterations of 3rd or 3.5 edition fighters. Gifting the class with 4 automatic advanced weapon training & 3 advanced armor training abilities was a NO BRAINER!! Small detail and not inherently complicated, but kudos for spreading these abilities out at a near perfect pace.

ADVANCED WEAPON TRAINING - a few highlights include Effortless Dual Wielding [where has this ability been for the last 15 years??], Focused Weapon [some Warpriest sacred weapon sauciness here] , and Tactics Training [some "Brawler spice" here ;)] ... the features are well crafted and provide genuinely useful mechanical bonuses.

ADVANCED ARMOR TRAINING - highlights here include Armored Sprint [NO, heavily armored characters don't have to be plodding and lacking in grace!], Shielded Evasion [one of those creative ideas that makes you say 'why didn't I think of that?!'], and Spell Warding. For anyone building an unchained fighter, Spell Warding is practically a MUST HAVE ability granting a very powerful spell resistance option for a class that has always been outshined by spell casters.

Forgive the classic 80s film reference, but the Spell Warding and Shielded Evasion abilities are the moment in Rocky IV when the towering, seemingly invincible Ivan Drago [spellcasters] gets shockingly punched in the face and cut ['The Russian is cut!'] by an invigorated Rocky Balboa [fighters with strong spell resistance and evasion]. Do Augunas and these abilities magically fix and close the gap between martial and spell casters? No. But they certainly help ...

FIGHTER TRAINING OPTIONS - incredibly flexible options that allow characters to select one of these abilities in place of one of THREE other abilities ... bonus feats, advanced weapon training, advanced armor training. Such flexibility is a welcome relief. Highlights here include the basic but VALUABLE Fighter's Reflexes and Fighter's Tenacity which take poor saving throws and bullrushes them into a strength. There are a few augmentations to Martial Spontaneity that open the doors to some fabulous character customization.

The addition of a Finesse Weapon Group is inspired and a good number of the feats are really VIABLE options [many feats in new splatbooks, while cool and creative, often struggle to usurp the utility of the great "bedrock" feats for various classes] ... Masterful Grace, Recovery, and Recuperation are among the feats that may very well become player favorites.

This product is a LONG time coming and Everyman Gaming hits a home run ... congratulations Alexander. Now the pressure is on to push your rising star and take charge as the leader of MAJOR Paizo/Pathfinder products.


Great boost to Fighters

*****

This book gives a really nice update to the Fighter. It uses the Stamina System from Pathfinder Unchained, gives it to the fighter by default, then expands on it in multiple ways. It buffs the Fighter in all the right ways, giving the class more versatility and utility, without altering it's identity. 5 stars.


The Fighter is Fun Again!

*****

One of the biggest complaints from fans over the years has been how underpowered and unimpressive the Fighter is when compared to all the other martial classes. They lack the power of the Barbarian, the specialized niches of the Paladin and Ranger, the special abilities of the Cavalier, the Brawler, and the Slayer. Along with the baseline Rogue the poor Fighter was all but forgotten. It was hoped that Pathfinder Unchained would rectify this, but while it did introduce the Stamina rules they were made potentially available for all classes, diluting them.

But as the Rogue was made once more amazing by Legendary Games' Legendary Rogues, so has Everyman Games tried their best with the Fighter. In this 46 page PDF – with one page each for the cover, credits, and contents, two and a half for the OGL, two and a half for ads, leaving 38 pages for content --- they did a great job!

It opens with a description of the new Unchained Fighter class. In many ways it resembles the old original fighter, with full BAB and d10 hit dice and full armor and martial weapons proficiencies, so I see no need to go into that here. They also still get a new combat feat at first, second, and every even level afterwards. You do get an extra 2 skill points per level, which I like. Armor training still comes at third and seventh, Armor Mastery at 19th and Weapon Mastery at 20th, it's all mostly the same. But the new stuff is something else again.

First of all the unchained fighter gets Weapon Training starting at 1st level. They can choose an entire weapon group and become proficient with every martial and exotic weapon in it from the very start. They still gain bonuses to hit and on damage at 5th level and every four levels after that, but can't gain any new weapon groups unless they choose them with advanced weapon training. More later on that.

The unchained fighter also gains the Stamina pool rules from Pathfinder Unchained. The rules for it here seem to be the same as in 'Unchained', though now some uses are limited to your weapon group. Like using Stamina points to get a competence bonus on attack rolls. I will also add here that Stamina allows the Fighter to get something like the Brawler's rule that permits them to get certain feats even if their stats are too low, which I enjoy.

Starting at 3rd level the Fighter now gets Second Wind, permitting them to get temporary hit points when injured with Stamina points for 1 minute. This scales over levels, making for a decent boost to keep you in the fight without having to drop out for healing. This reminds me of all those Howard-esque Conan stories where the hero is able to stay on their feet through sheer determination no matter how badly hurt.

At 4th level we get Martial Spontaneity, permitting the fighter to spend Stamina to get a new combat feat. This is like but not as good as the Brawler's ability; then again the Fighter gets so many more feats than the Brawler does. After this comes the new and improved, very improved, Advanced Weapon Training that was originally introduced in Weapon Masters Handbook. But oh my gosh has it been expanded here. You can add your Bravery bonus to Will saves. You can enter a trance and increase your weapon training bonus. Want to overcome negative conditions, get new Weapon Groups, expand single-weapon feats to cover more of your weapon group, gain an improved damage bonus when using light or single-handed weapons, get a mount, use improved combat maneuvers at range, or even improve your Psychology DC (from Everyman's Ultimate Charisma), or share teamwork feats? And much, much more? They've got you covered. You'll need to spend Stamina points and to be using a weapon from one of your weapon groups for most of these, but not all. This feels like an amazing improvement to the base fighter, providing lots of room for individual customization.

And that's not all! The new Unchained Fighter also provides Advanced Armor Training from the Armor Master's Handbook starting at 7th level. You can use Armored Confidence and Dutiful Guard to become an amazingly aware and intimidating guard. Armor Specialization and Armored Juggernaut can make you an untouchable or invincible opponent. Buckler Training and Shield Training improve your use of those defenses. And quite a bit more. The base Fighter has become quite the attractive character choice again!

The PDF then helpfully lists all weapons currently described in the game in a section for weapons and weapon groups. It include weapons from sources like the Player Companions, giving them full stats as well. I did notice a few minor discrepancies. The Boarding Pike doesn't get a description along the other weapons, and neither does the Flambard. And is it intentional that the Sharpened Combat Scabbard is much more expensive yet far less useful than the regular Combat Scabbard? I'd consider these all to be minor flaws though given just how much information we do get here. There's a tremendous list of odd weapons for those looking for that special something for their fighter.

We also get a redone listing of nearly every single fighter archetype, updated to work with the new class. They all look to me like they add up properly. It seems like the PDF covers archetypes from the Advanced Player Guide, Ultimate Combat, Occult Adventures, the Advanced Racial Guide, and more. There doesn't seem to be any specific to Golarion, but that won't be a problem for everyone. You've got a great selection to choose from.

Lastly are some new feats with combat tricks included for use with the Stamina pool. Many of them require you to possess either Armor Training or Weapon Training. Like Charging Momentum, which allows you to make a single Vital Strike enhanced attack at the end of a charge. Cheat Death permits you to use Stamina to save yourself at the last minute by turning all the damage to nonlethal; once again, this reminds me of many an old Howard tale where the hero is saved by being hit with the flat of the blade at the last moment. Leaping Assault allows the classic samurai-style kiai-and-leap, adding your Acrobatics score to your damage roll at the end of a charge. Recuperation permits for those rapidly-healing heroes who are ready to charge out for more after resting an hour or so. Others permit you to temporarily ignore ability damage or recover quickly negative conditions via a second saving throw. Masterful Grace is for everyone who wants a finesse-fighter that isn't a swashbuckler, allowing for dextrous use of weapons ranging from daggers to greatswords.

I will admit the feats section has some very minor typos. Some of the text for Elven Weapon Training is repeated under Gnome Weapon Training. But really, that's it, and anyone can tell what the feat is supposed to do.

This is an AMAZING product. The fighter badly needed an overhaul for a long time and here it got one that seems impossible to improve on. If you are a fighter fan like me, you needed this long ago. If not, you still seriously need to think about getting a copy. It is just that darned good. My old favorite class has retaken pride of place in my heart thanks to this. The only problem might be if you don't use the Stamina rules but you'll be missing out on a lot without them. Five stars and my sincerest recommendation to every lover of the fighter.

EDIT as of 11/21/16: The missing information for the Boarding Pike and Flambard has been added in, and the discrepancies about the Sharpened Combat Scabbard and Combat Scabbard have been cleared up.

Also, the Crossbowman and Polearm Master have both had some minor adjustments, mainly centering on their namesake weapons getting Advanced Weapon Training bonuses unique to these archetypes.

Lastly, the Unchained Fighter got something else new, Fighter Training Options. They can be taken in place of Advanced Armor Options, Advanced Weapon Options, and Fighter bonus feats. Some of them were originally one or another of the old Advanced options, like Master Craftsman which now can be used in place of either the old Master Armorer and Master Weaponsmith. Mount is here too but can now be taken twice if the Fighter wants a more potent steed. Old save bonuses to Reflex and Will are now under Fighter's Reflexes and Tenacity; and the improvements to Martial Spontaneity and Determination.

We also get a few new options like Dutiful Guard, Establish Perimeter, and Fortify Perimeter for people who want their Fighters to be even better defenders.

Th wording of some feats, like the various racial Combat Training ones, has been clarified. Great work all around making an already great product even better!


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Since nobody else has posted here, I thought I would call some attention to this great product.

The only thing I don't like about it is that because it was not published by Paizo, it can never become Paizo's official "Unchained Fighter". But if you are dissatisfied with the power level of the official Fighter, this class does for the Fighter what the Unchained Rogue did for that Fighter -- albeit not with the same near perfect compatibility.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thank you for doing so! (*cart*)

Contributor

It's available? Sweet!

Thanks, Chris and/or Rick!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Between this and Legendary Games' Legendary Rogues, two of my once-favorite classes have returned to their best beloved status in my heart. Thank you, Mister Augunas.

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Eric Hinkle wrote:
Between this and Legendary Games' Legendary Rogues, two of my once-favorite classes have returned to their best beloved status in my heart. Thank you, Mister Augunas.

Glad to have helped!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

By the way -- On a thread about good 3rd party products, one of Endzeitgeist's recommendations was Everyman Gaming's entire Unchained product line.

Contributor

David knott 242 wrote:

By the way -- On a thread about good 3rd party products, one of Endzeitgeist's recommendations was Everyman Gaming's entire Unchained product line.

I saw earlier! I need to pop in there and thank End for the shoutout.


David knott 242 wrote:

By the way -- On a thread about good 3rd party products, one of Endzeitgeist's recommendations was Everyman Gaming's entire Unchained product line.

He spoke as wisely as usual.


Not too bad, Attack Focus is a very nice benefit for those poor fools using bludgeoning weapons (used with Battle Trance, and the Disruption Special Quality can reap some serious undead with ease), and effortless Dual Wielding is pretty nice bonus to all those two-weapon builds (though the sawtooth saber is pretty much useless now).

You even high-jacked some of the Swashbucklers toys to boot, which grabs a few nice things for Throwers too.

The one big issue I have with it is Archetypes, while most have improved a fair bit some (like the Crossbowman) are still entirely useless, in addition to that the Weapon Master Archetype is totally broken.

Not because the abilities themselves are broken, but their costs are by FAR too small, in particular Deadly Critical. This ability is pretty powerful due to its effect of increasing the critical multiplier, but when it used to be usable only about 4 times a fay Max it's now only costs 1 Stamina Point to spam at-will.

Simply put, the best weapons in game are the high Crit-Threat weapons (kukri, scimitar, falchion, etc) and this ability effectively makes them even stronger (16-20/x3 or 17-20/x4 for the Falcata) which pushes other weapons back even further.

Bottom line I guess is that this needs its Stamina cost upped a good deal... especially when you compare it to other, lesser effects, that cost a good deal more.

Contributor

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Magus Black wrote:
Not too bad, Attack Focus is a very nice benefit for those poor fools using bludgeoning weapons (used with Battle Trance, and the Disruption Special Quality can reap some serious undead with ease), and effortless Dual Wielding is pretty nice bonus to all those two-weapon builds (though the sawtooth saber is pretty much useless now).

I would disagree on the sawtooth sabre being useless—if you choose to specialize in that weapon, you can effectively have your "I dual wield two longswords," build up and active at 1st level (EWP and TWF as your 1st level feats). Every other weapon needs to wait until 5th level, and is forced to spend an advanced weapon training option on it.

I would say that the sawtooth sabre lost a monopoly if you're an Unchained Fighter. (And honestly, with the history behind the weapon in the Golarion setting I think that's fine. I've always viewed Red Mantis Assassins as rangers, slayers, warpriests, and rogues, personally. Effortless Dual Wielding doesn't benefit those characters without a significant dip into the fighter class.)

Quote:
You even high-jacked some of the Swashbucklers toys to boot, which grabs a few nice things for Throwers too.

Specifically, the "precise strike mechanic." The baseline damage portion of that ability is less about, "Let's give the swashbuckler something unique," and more about, "Let's make freehand fighting numerically viable." Arguably, all freehand style characters need a damage bonus like that to function.

Quote:
The one big issue I have with it is Archetypes, while most have improved a fair bit some (like the Crossbowman) are still entirely useless,

Can you be more specific? What about the crossbowman is useless, and what other archetypes do you think are in the same boat?

Quote:

in addition to that the Weapon Master Archetype is totally broken.

Not because the abilities themselves are broken, but their costs are by FAR too small, in particular Deadly Critical. This ability is pretty powerful due to its effect of increasing the critical multiplier, but when it used to be usable only about 4 times a fay Max it's now only costs 1 Stamina Point to spam at-will.

Simply put, the best weapons in game are the high Crit-Threat weapons (kukri, scimitar, falchion, etc) and this ability effectively makes them even stronger (16-20/x3 or 17-20/x4 for the Falcata) which pushes other weapons back even further.

I agree with reliable strike—I'm going to move that back to a uses per day mechanic before the print version is released. that ability with stamina just doesn't work well, especially not at a cost of 1 point.

For Deadly Critical, I'm trying something weird—weapon statistic override. Here's my current draft:

Spoiler:
Deadly Critical (Ex): At 11th level, whenever a weapon master confirms a critical hit with his chosen weapon, he can spend 4 stamina points as an immediate action to change his weapon’s base critical threat range to 18–20 and its critical multiplier to x3. Further modifications to his weapon’s critical threat range or critical multiplier stack (such as the Improved Critical feat) stack with this effect.

People reading this thread—please let me know what you think so I can adjust accordingly. While I am very satisfied with the quality of the published product, a few tweaks here and there before printing couldn't hurt. ;-)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It does not appear that your new version of Deadly Critical would work at all, unless I am seriously misreading it. Increasing the weapon's critical threat range does nothing when you have already confirmed the critical hit -- which makes this ability completely pointless if the chosen weapon already has a critical multiplier of x3 or greater.

Contributor

David knott 242 wrote:

It does not appear that your new version of Deadly Critical would work at all, unless I am seriously misreading it. Increasing the weapon's critical threat range does nothing when you have already confirmed the critical hit -- which makes this ability completely pointless if the chosen weapon already has a critical multiplier of x3 or greater.

That's fixable. What about the other "bad archetypes," that you and others have mentioned?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I only mentioned two that were missing -- the ones from the Advanced Class Guide, which you said that you were planning for a later product.

For the Martial Master, I think I would have settled for a sidebar explaining why an unchained archetype wasn't needed (since you had a standard class feature and advanced weapon training options that covered all but the 20th level version of Martial Flexibility).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have a question...
One of my Crazy Character Concepts(tm) I'm currently theroycrafting (don't know when/if I'll get to play it) is a warrior who dual-weilds large greatswords. Would this product have anything that could help make that not totally terrible? :P

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nate Z wrote:

I have a question...

One of my Crazy Character Concepts(tm) I'm currently theroycrafting (don't know when/if I'll get to play it) is a warrior who dual-weilds large greatswords. Would this product have anything that could help make that not totally terrible? :P

Not in this book, but I'm working on giant weapon stuff for the expansion product that I'm hoping to put out next month.

Dual Wielding massive weapons is tough mechanically, but its also a key part of certain fighter fantasies. I'm doing what I can to make it work.


Sorry about the delay.

To start with the Crossbowman Fighter Archetype its existence wasn’t well-met when it first came out and after the outburst of the Gunslinger class the rise of the Bolt Ace has sent to a Archetype Grave. There are several reasons for this so I’ll start from the top.

DAMAGE: Okays sure, the Crossbowman gains (Crossbow) Weapon Training but its benefits are few and far between (then and now) but only get to use half their Dexterity modifier until level 11 (which means its likely only a +1~2 Bonus until then). Compare and contrast the Bolt Ace gets to add their Full Dexterity Modifier at level 5 and get a nice bonus along the way (improving the Critical Multiplier by 1) and realistically most people wont get to use the Crossbowman’s full damage potential; since most games end around 10~11 anyways.

ACTION ECONOMY: This also ties in with DAMAGE because this is what REEEEALLY screws the Crossbowman over, see the Crossbowman is restricted to a single attack each round…that has to be Readied…which is BAD. Why? Because not all DM’s will allow extremely vague triggers (“I attack if the Enemy does Anything“) and you may end spending your turn doing nothing at all (making Attacks of Opportunity I believe cancels your Readied Action if I remember correctly). Not only that but its restricts you to only a single attack, and while you can use Vital Strike with it you have to take the Feat first (making it a Feat Tax), without which your damage out-put plummets further.

In comparison the Bolt Ace has no such restrictions and has the versatility to play any type of crossbow-user you want. Want to pump out enough bolts to make it rain red oak Inexplicable Reload Deed can let you do this with a Heavy Crossbow. Want to make a single powerful shot then the Dead Shot Deed gives you the effective full Vital Strike-chain at level 7; and if that don’t seem reliable enough (or don’t want stand still to do it) you can take Vital Strike and use your Sharp Shoot Deed to make the attack a Ranged Tough Attack in its first range incensement (between 30ft for hand crossbows to 120ft for most bigger crossbows).

CLASS ABILTIES: Tipping the scales even further than the above is that the Bolt Ace does all of the Crossbowman’s Abilities Better and Earlier:

At level 15 the Crossbowman gets Pinpoint Shot which effectively makes the attack a Ranged Touch Attack. The Bolt Ace gets Sharp Shot at level 1 and can use Vital Strike (Pinpoint Shot is a Standard Action so double-ouch).

At level 3 a Crossbowman can add Half their Dexterity Modifier to Damage with a Readied Attack-Action, which improves to Full-Dex at level 11. A Bolt Ace gets Full-Dex at level 5 and gets an Improved Critical Multiplier as a bonus…no restrictions on attacks.

At level 9 you a Crossbowman gets Quick Sniper…which isn’t all that bad but there are Feats now that cover half of the ability that be acquired earlier, and the free attack doesn’t benefit from any Class Features except Crossbow-Expert.

At level 13 you gain Safety Shot which doesn’t provoke Attack of Opportunities when you attack with a crossbow (but you still do if you reload). A Bolt Ace gets Vigilant Loading Deed at level 1 that prevents Attacks of Opportunity when you load a crossbow (as long as you have 1 Grit left) and gets Vigilant Shooter at level 11 that prevents it from making attacks with a crossbow…2 levels earlier than the Crossbowman. STAB. TWIST.

At Level 17 the Crossbowman gets Meteor Strike which uses a Standard Action (sorry no Pinpoint Shot or Vital Strike for you) and lets you follow the damage up with a Combat Maneuver Check to perform a Bull Rush or Trip Maneuver. At level 7 a Bolt Ace gets Targeting which allows you to make a No-Save No-Maneuver Check Disarm/1-round Confusion/Trip/Anti-Air effect…people honestly tend to consider Targeting a little broken really.

At level 19 you get Penetrating Strike which is the only thing going for the Archetype…but not only is it a pie-in-the-sky ability that most will never see used it also requires each attack to be a Confirmed Critical Hit in order to function…which unless you really lucky you arent not going to hit more than two foes at a time….if ever.

As backstabist on the old d20 Modern forums used to say “Any plan that requires you to make a Critical Hit, is not a plan.”

This doesn’t even count all the other benefits of Bolt Ace class (including better Saves).

VERDICT: The Crossbowman has got NOTHING on the Bolt Ace. In the battle of High Noon, the Bolt Ace is taking a handicap of wearing a blind fold and shooting second…there was still no question on who’s the better man.

====

Moving past that for Reliable Strike and Deadly Critical I think the best and simplest way to deal with it just make the costs higher 5 for Reliable Strike and 6 Deadly Critical will be enough that you can use it multiple times per day but cant spam on every attack.

…Quite frankly I still cant believe the nonsensical crap that prevented Keen and Improved Critical from stacking… “Special” my ass.

====

Back to Archetypes there are several that are still good even now (Lore Warden is my particular favorite) but honestly …well after the Advanced Weapon/Armor Training abilities came to be almost all of the Fighter Archetypes came under a new type of scrutiny when it came to determining worth.

In the past Bravery was the weakest ability in the game and just about every Archetype got rid of it for something (ANYTHING) better than a dopey +1 to resist Fear. Now though, the lose of Bravery is a Major Lose (and in some cases a deal breaker), losing it means losing a eventual +5 to Will Saves (and +10 vs. Intimidation Checks). If you’ve seen the forum you know that Will Saves are “serious business” for martial characters.

Weapon and Armor Training have some the most powerful abilities a Martial character can want (short of Spellcasting) which meant that any Ability that traded them and couldn’t take the Advanced Training (not much an issue now but I have another point to add below). There are some abilities that actually are pretty good trade-offs but by-and-by the older Archetypes are hit-or miss.

A note to add about the Unchained Fighters Archetypes is that while Weapon Training seems to have gotten good treatment, Armor Training seems to have gotten the shaft. In the early days Armor Training (like Bravery) was considered pretty low in priority and many Archetypes gave it up for more useful abilities, which means that unlike Weapon Training you cant get Advanced Armor Training for …actually a lot of the archetypes cant get them…

But perhaps that’s just how it is (C'est la vie).

I think most Fighter Archetypes need to be reanalyzed and possibly remodeled to compare them to the modern game, I mean we have 4 Dueling Archetypes (Buckler Duelist, Free-hand, Learned Duelist, and Swordlord) a Firearm Archetype that doesn’t give any proficiencies with firearms (Trench Fighter) …and surprisingly no Archetype that really focuses on Throwing weapons.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

One topic I haven't seen discussed is the question about what assumptions are being made about the frequency of combats and the Combat Stamina mechanic.

In most cases, a party can easily rest for a few minutes but not overnight between fights. Since the rate of recovery for stamina points is one per minute, these stamina points effectively become a "per encounter" resource. As a result, one design goal for this system would be to scale the stamina point costs in such a way that a player risks running out of them during a fight (because these points are effectively infinite otherwise).

So I guess this topic raises the question of how many stamina points any ability that previously had a limited number of uses per day should cost. If you make the cost too low, an Unchained Fighter will spam the ability in question in nearly every fight. If you make the cost too high, a lower level character who previously could have used that ability 1x/day might be unable to use the ability at all at his current level.

Would it make sense to have the stamina point cost of an ability scale up the more often you use it in a given day? Doing this would encourage an Unchained Fighter to vary his approach to combat and to reserve his most devastating maneuvers for critical situations. It would also introduce some daily bookkeeping into this mechanic, since the fighter would get his entire pool of stamina back between combats but would gradually find that he has fewer things left that he can do with it. One trick, obviously, is to prevent this scaling from becoming too clunky for a player to keep track of it easily.

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Quote:
To start with the Crossbowman Fighter Archetype its existence wasn’t well-met when it first came out and after the outburst of the Gunslinger class the rise of the Bolt Ace has sent to a Archetype Grave.

This is a tricky spot.

I don't necessarily think that its a good idea to design archetypes against each other. The crossbowman has two major perks against the bolt ace.

1) Crossbows are a relatively feat-intensive weapon type, and the crossbowman fighter gets more feats.

2) Stamina replenishes much faster than grit. Its worth noting that many of the class features that you point out as being "better than crossbowman abilities" are tied to grit, which means they're not sustainable for long adventuring days without a little bit of luck. (Crossbow crits / kills to regenerate grit.)

Personally, I don't think that giving the crossbowman Dex to damage with his crossbow is the answer here—that's only going to make the crossbowman overtake the bolt ace. I'll poke around a bit and see what I can come up with.

Quote:
In the past Bravery was the weakest ability in the game and just about every Archetype got rid of it for something (ANYTHING) better than a dopey +1 to resist Fear. Now though, the lose of Bravery is a Major Lose (and in some cases a deal breaker), losing it means losing a eventual +5 to Will Saves (and +10 vs. Intimidation Checks). If you’ve seen the forum you know that Will Saves are “serious business” for martial characters.

Generally speaking, old archetypes usually gave you something better than bravery as a trade. There are archetypes that give you bonuses against things like movement-impairing abilities, initiative bonuses, free feats, and more. In my opinion, that's the trade you back—you gain an ability that's a little bit better baseline, but you lose the option to take a really strong option that builds upon that lower baseline. It makes those archetypes less of a, "Well DUH," choice.

Quote:

A note to add about the Unchained Fighters Archetypes is that while Weapon Training seems to have gotten good treatment, Armor Training seems to have gotten the shaft. In the early days Armor Training (like Bravery) was considered pretty low in priority and many Archetypes gave it up for more useful abilities, which means that unlike Weapon Training you cant get Advanced Armor Training for …actually a lot of the archetypes cant get them…

But perhaps that’s just how it is (C'est la vie).

AAT is designed to be less powerful than most AWTs. The loss of AATs isn't as huge in most cases (which is why the abilities you gain for them often aren't as earth-shatteringly powerful either).

Quote:
I think most Fighter Archetypes need to be reanalyzed and possibly remodeled to compare them to the modern game, I mean we have 4 Dueling Archetypes (Buckler Duelist, Free-hand, Learned Duelist, and Swordlord) a Firearm Archetype that doesn’t give any proficiencies with firearms (Trench Fighter) …and surprisingly no Archetype that really focuses on Throwing weapons.

Perhaps. All of the dueling archetypes you mentioned do different things, but you are right that some fighting styles simply aren't supported by the current game's slew of fighter archetypes.

I'm currently working on getting a sequel product together for December. The plan is to take those Campaign Setting Line and Player Companion fighter archetypes and make them work with the unchained fighter, while also getting some neat new archetypes for other weapon styles in at the ground level. More on that later, though.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alexander Augunas wrote:


Not in this book, but I'm working on giant weapon stuff for the expansion product that I'm hoping to put out next month.

Dual Wielding massive weapons is tough mechanically, but its also a key part of certain fighter fantasies. I'm doing what I can to make it work.

You, sir, rock.


Recently downloaded my copy, and while i'm fairly happy about the raw mechanics. I think the product could have used another editing pass.

There are a few grammar issues, and things that shouldn't be there. For example, In every single instance of the Racial Weapon Group feats (Orc, hafling, dwarven) The word Elven shows up even when the feat has nothing to do with elves.

Its obvious that you did Elven Weapon Training first then did some copy pasting.

Also a few things that could use some disambiguation. I read over the Parry weapon training and had to read it a few times to fully get it. Specifically the part about Upseting your opponent to gain a bonus.

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Jakonen wrote:

are a few grammar issues, and things that shouldn't be there. For example, In every single instance of the Racial Weapon Group feats (Orc, hafling, dwarven) The word Elven shows up even when the feat has nothing to do with elves.

Its obvious that you did Elven Weapon Training first then did some copy pasting.

Quote:
Also a few things that could use some disambiguation. I read over the Parry weapon training and had to read it a few times to fully get it. Specifically the part about Upseting your opponent to gain a bonus.

Thanks for the report. I'll add it to my list of things to look at this week.

Did you notice anything else besides the feats and AWT that you mentioned? Any other specific rules that yo found to be unclear?


I have my copy, and I think it's an amazing piece of work, typos and all.

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Eric Hinkle wrote:
I have my copy, and I think it's an amazing piece of work, typos and all.

That's great--I'd just like to know where the typos are so i can fix them.

Also in the next update--I've heard people's requests for options that the fighter can take that improve his ability to act out of combat, so I'm going to try and address some of those concerns as well.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Eric Hinkle wrote:
I have my copy, and I think it's an amazing piece of work, typos and all.

That's great--I'd just like to know where the typos are so i can fix them.

Also in the next update--I've heard people's requests for options that the fighter can take that improve his ability to act out of combat, so I'm going to try and address some of those concerns as well.

I'd have to look and see. There weren't very many, though I do see that the prereqs and benefits section from 'Elven Weapon Training' were repeated in the same section for 'Gnome Weapon Training', listing 'elf' where it should probably be saying 'gnome'.

I may see what else I can find when I do a review in the next day or so.


I just posted my placeholder review until Endzeitgeist or someone like him gets around to writing the real one. ;) More seriously, I LOVE what this product did for the Fighter. I never knew I needed this until I read it, but all my old love for the fighter has returned. I really enjoy how several of the feats and new class abilities give it a very pulp action feel, like classic Robert E. Howard heroic fantasy. Heroic, but not superhuman.

I am so eagerly looking for to any sequel or expansion on this.

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Eric Hinkle wrote:

I just posted my placeholder review until Endzeitgeist or someone like him gets around to writing the real one. ;) More seriously, I LOVE what this product did for the Fighter. I never knew I needed this until I read it, but all my old love for the fighter has returned. I really enjoy how several of the feats and new class abilities give it a very pulp action feel, like classic Robert E. Howard heroic fantasy. Heroic, but not superhuman.

I am so eagerly looking for to any sequel or expansion on this.

Thanks, and thank you for the review!

I have some changes in the pipeline that I'm working on, and the note about the missing weapons was extremely helpful—that was by far the hardest section in the book to put together on account of the crazy number of weapons that are in it.


If I helped even a little I'm glad.


I just learned about the re-do of the PDF. As soon as I can read through the new version (after just printing the *old* one out too, grumble) I'll edit my review.

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Eric Hinkle wrote:
I just learned about the re-do of the PDF. As soon as I can read through the new version (after just printing the *old* one out too, grumble) I'll edit my review.

Its less of a redo and more of a reiteration. Most of the PDF is the same, but several archetypes got tweaked and I added a new fighter subsystem—the latter happened from a combination of customer feedback that the fighter had few cool things to do outside of combat and the increasingly obvious fact that having only two categories (AWT and AAT) was limiting the options that I could put into the class from a thematic standpoint.

And thus fighter training options were born.....


I edited my review to cover the changes. Unchained Fighters was great before and it's even better now.

Contributor

Eric Hinkle wrote:
I edited my review to cover the changes. Unchained Fighters was great before and it's even better now.

Glad to hear you liked them!

For fighter training options, the basic problem that needed solving was the simple fact that players wanted more out of combat "control the narrative" options for the fighter, but the structure of the class (both before and after the unchaining) itself had no room for noncombat abilities. So I solved the problem by making a new subsystem, and a bunch of options that were tenuous as AWTs or AATs suddenly made sense under the new system.


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Congrats on getting the #1 slot in the top downloads list for this week!


Duly purchased. I very much like what I've read at a glance, but regret to say the artwork is, in a word, terrible. Bad to the point you should just have saved the money to make a halfway appealing cover, but these are aesthetic concerns and not the reason I bought the book for. Will be writing a review soon.

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Viriato wrote:
Duly purchased. I very much like what I've read at a glance, but regret to say the artwork is, in a word, terrible. Bad to the point you should just have saved the money to make a halfway appealing cover, but these are aesthetic concerns and not the reason I bought the book for. Will be writing a review soon.

Thank you for purchasing the product and supporting Everyman Gaming! Glad to hear that you liked what you read and I look forward to your review.


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Went through this recently - though I'll admit I skipped through most of the archetypes - few errors I noticed:

Page 08, Tactics Training Advanced Weapon Training, "...selects a number of teamwork feats he possesses equal to hid highest weapon training bonus." Should be 'his'.

Page 11, Unmoving Advanced Armor Training, missing a period at the end of the last sentence.

Page 13, Size Up Training Option, "...for every 5 points by which your Sense Motive check exceeds the opponents Bluff..." Should be 'opponent's Bluff', possibly Bluff check. Also I am fairly certain that some of those daggers should be on other entries...for example, I suspect that multiple feats comes up more often than a single target having multiple genders (not that I'm judging genderfluid individuals or anything), and similarly that they are more likely to have multiple Craft/Perform/Profession skills than multiple ethnicities.

Page 14, Blades, Heavy Weapon Group lists a switchscythe, which lacks an asterisk, but is not listed in Ultimate Equipment either.

Page 38, Airborne Assault, "This doesn’t stack with other effects that multiple the result of..." Should be 'multiply'.

Page 39, Cheat Death, "If your nonlethal hit point total equals..." Shouldn't that be, "If the total amount of nonlethal damage you have taken equals..."?

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Cross-Posting Here for those interested.

Recent Updates to EMU: Fighters:

Added a new mechanic to the unchained fighter—fighter training options. Fighters can effectively “trade” their advanced armor training options, advanced weapon training options, or bonus feats in order to gain these special abilities, which mostly focus around providing noncombatant abilities and support to the unchained fighter.

— Adaptable Training AAT was reclassified as a FTO.
— Inspiring Confidence AWT was reclassified as a FTO.
— Item Mastery AWT was reclassified as a FTO.
— Mount AWT was reclassified as a FTO.
— Resolve AWT was reclassified as a FTO.

— Removed the Fighter’s Style AWT.
— Removed the Master Armorer AAT. (Folded into Master Craftsman FTO.)
— Removed the Master Weaponsmith AWT. (Folded into Master Craftsman FTO.)
— Removed Versatile Bravery AWT.

Archetypes
— Crossbowman was reworked to bring it closer in power to the bold ace gunslinger. The deadshot class feature was redesigned reclassified as an AWT that the crossbowman gains earlier.
— Polearm Master’s pole arm training abilityy was reclassified as an AWT that the pole arm master gains earlier. The Polearm master’s version scales.

Weapon Groups
— Added to missing weapon descriptions (boarding pike and flambard).
— Fixed discrepancies with the combat scabbard and sharpened combat scabbard.

Contributor

Luthorne wrote:

Went through this recently - though I'll admit I skipped through most of the archetypes - few errors I noticed:

Page 08, Tactics Training Advanced Weapon Training, "...selects a number of teamwork feats he possesses equal to hid highest weapon training bonus." Should be 'his'.

Page 11, Unmoving Advanced Armor Training, missing a period at the end of the last sentence.

Page 13, Size Up Training Option, "...for every 5 points by which your Sense Motive check exceeds the opponents Bluff..." Should be 'opponent's Bluff', possibly Bluff check. Also I am fairly certain that some of those daggers should be on other entries...for example, I suspect that multiple feats comes up more often than a single target having multiple genders (not that I'm judging genderfluid individuals or anything), and similarly that they are more likely to have multiple Craft/Perform/Profession skills than multiple ethnicities.

Page 14, Blades, Heavy Weapon Group lists a switchscythe, which lacks an asterisk, but is not listed in Ultimate Equipment either.

Page 38, Airborne Assault, "This doesn’t stack with other effects that multiple the result of..." Should be 'multiply'.

Page 39, Cheat Death, "If your nonlethal hit point total equals..." Shouldn't that be, "If the total amount of nonlethal damage you have taken equals..."?

I'll try to get to these ASAP. I'm currently in the middle of making sure next month's product goes out. ;-)

Contributor

Also, December's product is an expansion to this one.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Also, December's product is an expansion to this one.

I know I'll be looking forward to it.


Eric Hinkle wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Also, December's product is an expansion to this one.
I know I'll be looking forward to it.

Likewise! Consider it purchased.


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Long time listener of Know Direction. Purchased!

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powerdemon wrote:
Long time listener of Know Direction. Purchased!

Thank you! Always nice to hear from a fan. ^_^


So I'm about 1/3 through reading the pdf. I gotta say, I'm not impressed. There are not nearly enough Kitsune pictures. I am disappoint.

(This is a joke. It's awesome!)

Paizo Employee Developer, Starfinder Team

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powerdemon wrote:

So I'm about 1/3 through reading the pdf. I gotta say, I'm not impressed. There are not nearly enough Kitsune pictures. I am disappoint.

Every illustration that looks like a human?

Actually a kitsune. :)

Contributor

powerdemon wrote:

So I'm about 1/3 through reading the pdf. I gotta say, I'm not impressed. There are not nearly enough Kitsune pictures. I am disappoint.

(This is a joke. It's awesome!)

Alas, all of my art resources / funds are going towards the Dynastic Races Compendium right now! (As evidenced from the nagaji and wayang pieces that got cross pollinated into this product.)

Give me until January--there will be plenty of kitsune in the Dynastic Races Compendium. (A patron backer requested this one of a nine tailed kyubi that's just awesome!)

Contributor

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
powerdemon wrote:

So I'm about 1/3 through reading the pdf. I gotta say, I'm not impressed. There are not nearly enough Kitsune pictures. I am disappoint.

Every illustration that looks like a human?

Actually a kitsune. :)

Hey, it works for my Miniatures. Why not my art too? ;-)


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
powerdemon wrote:

So I'm about 1/3 through reading the pdf. I gotta say, I'm not impressed. There are not nearly enough Kitsune pictures. I am disappoint.

Every illustration that looks like a human?

Actually a kitsune. :)

Well played.... Well played....

What races are the creatures on pages 20 and 37?


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
powerdemon wrote:
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
powerdemon wrote:

So I'm about 1/3 through reading the pdf. I gotta say, I'm not impressed. There are not nearly enough Kitsune pictures. I am disappoint.

Every illustration that looks like a human?

Actually a kitsune. :)

Well played.... Well played....

What races are the creatures on pages 20 and 37?

They're both nagaji.


Thank you, Luthorne.


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
powerdemon wrote:
Thank you, Luthorne.

No worries, glad to help.

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