Rysky |
Is that confirmed CY?
Also, what are the Ninkonda Angel all about?
What is the reason behind their mutilated appearance?
Are they risen Kytons or some other sort of fiend?
They were wicked mortals in life who repented and turned good but when they died and eventually became celestials the memories they kept of their former wicked life vexed them so much that they transformed into these creatures.
Their goal is the redemption of once good but now evil creatures.
Berselius |
They are uncontrolled. Presumably, that's House Thrune's problem. ^_^
Yeah, I assume House Thrune isn't going to be exactly thrilled with their "heroes" when their kingdom's capital city of Egorian comes under assault of several armies of undead led by Nightwalker commanders.
They're not under anyone's control, the PCs roll for their attack and everything, but as soon as combat is over they wander away to do as they please. :-)
Edit: That'll teach me for having to look things up.
Well played grasshopper!
Yeah, I was concerned when I saw Nightwalkers in the artifacts description and in the artwork in the manual. I'm surprised that the "Continuing the Adventure" or the "Consequences of Failure" parts don't go over what Thrune or anyone else decide to do about several Nightwalkers on the loose in Cheliax.
Berselius |
Berselius wrote:Yeah, I assume House Thrune isn't going to be exactly thrilled with their "heroes" when their kingdom's capital city of Egorian comes under assault of several armies of undead led by Nightwalker commanders.To be fair the entire thing is Thrunes plan.
Such is the nature of evil. Out there in the vast ignorance of the world it festers and spreads. A shadow that grows in the dark. A sleepless malice as black as the oncoming wall of night. So it ever was. So will it always be. In time all foul things come forth. ;) :D
Tammy the Lich |
Berselius wrote:Is that confirmed CY?
Also, what are the Ninkonda Angel all about?
What is the reason behind their mutilated appearance?
Are they risen Kytons or some other sort of fiend?
They were wicked mortals in life who repented and turned good but when they died and eventually became celestials the memories they kept of their former wicked life vexed them so much that they transformed into these creatures.
Their goal is the redemption of once good but now evil creatures.
Tammy wasn't convinced.
Rysky |
Rysky wrote:Tammy wasn't convinced.Berselius wrote:Is that confirmed CY?
Also, what are the Ninkonda Angel all about?
What is the reason behind their mutilated appearance?
Are they risen Kytons or some other sort of fiend?
They were wicked mortals in life who repented and turned good but when they died and eventually became celestials the memories they kept of their former wicked life vexed them so much that they transformed into these creatures.
Their goal is the redemption of once good but now evil creatures.
A higher CR one will be along to serenade you shortly.
Berselius |
Rysky wrote:Tammy wasn't convinced.Berselius wrote:Is that confirmed CY?
Also, what are the Ninkonda Angel all about?
What is the reason behind their mutilated appearance?
Are they risen Kytons or some other sort of fiend?
They were wicked mortals in life who repented and turned good but when they died and eventually became celestials the memories they kept of their former wicked life vexed them so much that they transformed into these creatures.
Their goal is the redemption of once good but now evil creatures.
Your a lich hun. The negative energy plane gets to munch on your soul whenever it gets the chance. No heaven for you.
Tammerine "Tammy" Dragontoe |
Tammy the Lich wrote:A higher CR one will be along to serenade you shortly.Rysky wrote:Tammy wasn't convinced.Berselius wrote:Is that confirmed CY?
Also, what are the Ninkonda Angel all about?
What is the reason behind their mutilated appearance?
Are they risen Kytons or some other sort of fiend?
They were wicked mortals in life who repented and turned good but when they died and eventually became celestials the memories they kept of their former wicked life vexed them so much that they transformed into these creatures.
Their goal is the redemption of once good but now evil creatures.
Tammy has fodder, she's not worried.
looks up at the parapet
Besides, she still has them around, it's important to redecorate your new crib when you move in. :-)
Axial |
I can see this being way too much of a problem. For one, I imagine certain PCs disapproving of this, saying something like "Asmodeus does not approve of this chaos! The Nightwalkers will surely consume the empire!"
The funniest part is that it's Abrogail's idea.
Thrune Agent PCs: It is done, Majestrix. The Glorious Reclamation is ruined. How shall we banish or contain the Nightwalkers, your excellence?
Abrogail: Uhhhh.....
Porphyrogenitus |
Hell's Vengeance will assume that the events of Council of Thieves have already taken place. There is an entire Adventure Path's worth of plots in Westcrown (from Council of Thieves) that simply cannot be addressed in a single adventure ("Hell Comes to Westcrown"), so the decision was made to "advance the timeline," so to speak--with regards to Westcrown, at least. The adventure will have more details on this.
Should I take that as implying the events of this AP and the previous one will be baked into the cake of future products set in the same general area?
If so, that is awful. I say that having really, really liked CoT. But I find these two (Hell's Rebels and Hell's Vengeance) to be abhorrent on too many levels.
Even a hint that these events will be baked into future publications in any way affects all my future buying decisions.
Porphyrogenitus |
It also isn't helpful calling something "abhorrent on so many levels" without at least saying what some issues are. I get criticism of Hell's Vengeance, evil isn't for everyone. But I can't think of any time I've heard it used to describe Hell's Rebels.When the last one is out and I have time to write a review of all of it, I might. It will indicate what I find abhorrent about the first when tied to the second, as they are clearly intended to be, which is why:
Paizo is pretty good at avoiding mention of AP events in other products.
Was violated here, and why I took the moment to decloak regarding my opinion of the whole thing, since they did break an otherwise generally* observed policy of not having APs or modules interact with other APs or modules in pushing the gameworld.
Anyhow I don't have the time to get into what would almost certainly become a forum debate by specifically mentioning the many levels on which I find these abhorrent. I'll pass on the opportunity to even hint at the reasons, for now, lest it just start the ball of thread unravelling.
Genuine apologies for staying cryptic for now because you're right that in using such a strong term to express my dislike for these APs I owe en explanation for my details. But I simply haven't got the IRL time to start what I'm pretty sure will become a time-consuming exchange. I'm going to wait till it's all out, wait till I have a good block of time to (a) formulate my critique in a review that I will try to word carefully so I don't give off unnecessary vibes (I've had issues phrasing things in a tone that is abrasive in the past), and (b) at a time when I'll have time to respond to any objections, disagreement, and so forth.
I only posted the feedback I did (above) to lay down at least a marker for any devs reading these that not everyone will want this to become canon in the setting going forward, and I won't spend any more money buying Paizo products at all if I think that there's a possibility it will. (A crappy means, but the only one a consumer *really* has, ultimately).
(Again, I really, really liked CoT, and Westcrown I think is among my favorite fantasy cities anyone has ever published. I am not implying a blanket condemnation of all APs, or of the writers/designers).
P.S. I don't object to evil PCs or evil campaigns as such, however. If I did, I probably wouldn't use this avatar.
*though not always
Rysky |
APs do not move the game world forward, that is correct.
BUT, certain APs do present with another AP or more already being completed. Not the whole world, just that specifc AP.
For Hell's Vengeance it was Council of Thieves.
For Shattered Star it was Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne, and Second Darkness.
So having an AP "continue" off of another one isn't exactly new here.
But, to reiterate, these events only apply to the AP in question, not to Golarion as a whole, and most certainly not to Golarion outside of the AP.
Kalindlara Contributor |
In this case, the decision to set events post-Council of Thieves might be for another reason as well: it removes the problems of that AP from consideration. Far simpler to say that the shadow curse is ended and the malefactors are all gone than to delve into the question of how they affect the current strife.
Robert G. McCreary Senior Developer, Starfinder Team |
I have a problem.
Yesterday, I received my print copy of Hell Come to Westcrown, and the interior ends on page 80. Pages 81 and on are missing entirely (That includes the bestiary).
Is anyone having this problem with their print copies?
Can I get an exchange when I come to Gen Con?
Jacob, you should post this question in the Customer Service forum. They should be able to assist you.
Mark Moreland Developer |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
captain yesterday wrote:It also isn't helpful calling something "abhorrent on so many levels" without at least saying what some issues are. I get criticism of Hell's Vengeance, evil isn't for everyone. But I can't think of any time I've heard it used to describe Hell's Rebels.When the last one is out and I have time to write a review of all of it, I might. It will indicate what I find abhorrent about the first when tied to the second, as they are clearly intended to be, which is why:Quote:Paizo is pretty good at avoiding mention of AP events in other products.Was violated here, and why I took the moment to decloak regarding my opinion of the whole thing, since they did break an otherwise generally* observed policy of not having APs or modules interact with other APs or modules in pushing the gameworld.
As one of Paizo's primary keepers of canon, I can assure you that the default assumption for the campaign setting as a whole is that nothing has happened except what is listed in the Inner Sea World Guide. That is the baseline for the setting, whether you're running an adventure that came out in 2009 or 2016. From time to time, specific stories we tell, either in fiction or adventures, build on past stories we've told and so assume those specific elements have taken place. In such cases, we do our best to provide guidance for GMs who are running campaigns that don't include the previous events, or for whose groups they ended in non-standard ways. That said, it's entirely possible to run Hell's Vengeance and Hell's Rebels independently of the the other, as they don't overlap geographically or in terms of specific NPCs involved in both.
Axial |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Is there any way to have Alexeara Cansellarion have a larger presence in the story or appear to the PCs at least once (preferably twice) before fighting her in this volume? I hate it when the players don't interact with the main villain until the final boss fight. Hell's Rebels does a very good job of averting this.
I was thinking of having Alexaera sometimes appear atop a mountain or castle and delivering a speech to her army while surrounded in an aura of light and radiant sunrays projecting from her in every direction; like Satsuki Kiryuin from Kill La Kill.
https://thecoffeespoon.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/kill-la-kill-ep-11-scree ncap-5.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-HoaBZCF0vyA/Uq3g1PTQLoI/AAAAAAAAA-o/Uq9i ZRK7K18/w1920-h1080/Kill%2Bla%2BKill%2B-%2B01%2BSatsuki%2BShine.jpg
I was also thinking of giving her a theme song or leitmotif, probably something Angelic-sounding or a Gregorian chant.
MannyGoblin |
So... which "ending" of CoT is "canon" regarding Hell's Vengeance then? My DM is worried about how to handle the two now.
I believe the Shadowcurse is gone and Ilnerik and the twins(Chammedy and whatshisface) are dead. No doubt the surviving nobles elect a new mayor and things go back to how they used to be but there is a night life.
Kalindlara Contributor |
ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester |
Is there any way to have Alexeara Cansellarion have a larger presence in the story or appear to the PCs at least once (preferably twice) before fighting her in this volume? I hate it when the players don't interact with the main villain until the final boss fight. Hell's Rebels does a very good job of averting this.
I was thinking of having Alexaera sometimes appear atop a mountain or castle and delivering a speech to her army while surrounded in an aura of light and radiant sunrays projecting from her in every direction; like Satsuki Kiryuin from Kill La Kill.
https://thecoffeespoon.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/kill-la-kill-ep-11-scree ncap-5.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-HoaBZCF0vyA/Uq3g1PTQLoI/AAAAAAAAA-o/Uq9i ZRK7K18/w1920-h1080/Kill%2Bla%2BKill%2B-%2B01%2BSatsuki%2BShine.jpg
I was also thinking of giving her a theme song or leitmotif, probably something Angelic-sounding or a Gregorian chant.
I prefer that kind of idea as well. even if the players don't know necessarily that they are the antagonist, having them interact with or encounter them on a fairly frequent basis can really help with ingraining them in their consciousness. I almost imagine that the players could be given a task that partially involved crossing paths with the leader of the opposing forces, like a preemptive strike to try and bar passage. They might fight, though it becomes obvious they are out classed. Being a Paladin of Iomedae, she decides to give them the chance to repent(this being fairly early, their evil isn't hard coded in stone), and lets them live(or rather before she can kill them, she is forced to leave(the chelish army moving to attempt a counter, or because her plans require a decent amount of speed, making an execution impossible for now). Upon realising how powerful their foe is, they realise they they need to build up their strength before they can take her on in a more evenly matched fight.
Some adventure paths make such interactions more difficult, while others are much more clear cut and capable. Curse of the crimson throne being one when the players are almost constantly in interaction with the big-bad villain(in one way or another), while rise of the runelords is much more tricky to have those kind of interactions(though you could have her presence being a prevalent force in the plot, driving the wheels forward on the story as the players realize what is happening).
Rosgakori Vendor - Fantasiapelit Tampere |
Plausible Pseudonym |
Is Bellinia Dorjana worst character art to ever appear in an AP, or is there something even more unsettling out there? It's the best illustration of the uncanny valley I've ever seen.
I flipped to that page and froze in horror, thinking it a supremely creepy living doll or mannequin creature. Then I noticed the inexplicable Iomedae armor. Then I read back a page and saw it was supposed to be a human being who not only hadn't been hidden away in a basement her whole life to protect her from vengeful villagers determined to burn the abomination, but was actually a respected member off society with a 14 Charisma score.
With each new realization my horror grew, until I chose to believe it was intended to get you in the right frame of mind for the next AP. Mission accomplished.
captain yesterday |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's a lady at my church, super tall and kinda heavy set, has a glass eye, she was kinda scary looking as a kid, but she's extremely active in the community, and incredibly warm and friendly.
So personally, Bellinia is one of my favorite NPCs in the whole adventure path. :-)
Certainly better than all the balloon headed Halflings in book four.
Plausible Pseudonym |
I liked the NPC just fine, I just found the plasticky porcelain skin, neck tattoo that I thought was cracking in the porcelain, and brill cream perm deeply unsettling. The stout proportions are fine.
Edit: it also suffers from following the summoner/eidolon on page 26, which is glorious and gorgeous.