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I apologize if this has already been asked in another thread, I don't like beating a dead horse any more than you guys ;)
I would like to get your input regarding the use of Wish and the granting of a feat.
With what a Wish can grant with RAW, is it within the power of a single Wish to grant a permanent feat? Or should a feat, if granted, remain temporary/usable x times per day?
To have a permanent feat granted, 1 Wish to grant it initially and a second for permanence?
A lot of you folks have much more experience with handling Wish in PF than I do, what do you folks think?
RAW it isn't listed in the options for the spell, so not without the GM allowing it to happen.
I think that 25,000 gp for a feat seems fair, although I've never actually thought about using wish for that purpose (this definitely gave me some ideas, though!). Your idea to require two wishes might be the safer choice.
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I think that 25,000 gp for a feat seems fair, although I've never actually thought about using wish for that purpose (this definitely gave me some ideas, though!). Your idea to require two wishes might be the safer choice.
Lol, glad I could help give you some food for thought :)
Yea, I think you're right about playing it safe with two wishes. It makes more sense now that I think about it; one to grant it initially, and another to seal the deal as it were.
Depends on the feat in question. Some are worth considerably less than 25k. some considerably more.
I would, by the way, require all prerequisites for the feat to be met. That might go without saying, but I'll say it anyway :)
I'm really torn about this actually. Reason being, some items do grant a 'feat' for a cost around that pricing (generally 10k+ gold), BUT those items can be shut down (dispel) or removed (stolen/sundered). Actually granting a free/bonus feat seems 'cheap' at 25k gold.
The other really unbalancing part of it... what's the limit? At 20th level there are a ton of builds that would gladly spend 25-50k gold/per to get feats because they are strapped for them. Heck there are some builds that would do it at half that level if it were possible.
It just feels 'off' to me.
(And incidentally, this should probably be in the Advice forum.)
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I'm really torn about this actually. Reason being, some items do grant a 'feat' for a cost around that pricing (generally 10k+ gold), BUT those items can be shut down (dispel) or removed (stolen/sundered). Actually granting a free/bonus feat seems 'cheap' at 25k gold.
The other really unbalancing part of it... what's the limit? At 20th level there are a ton of builds that would gladly spend 25-50k gold/per to get feats because they are strapped for them. Heck there are some builds that would do it at half that level if it were possible.
It just feels 'off' to me.
(And incidentally, this should probably be in the Advice forum.)
I can understand your concern; what is most likely the determining factor is the level of availability a GM makes of 25k Diamonds.
If a GM makes the Diamonds easily available, then yes, I would agree this could get way out of hand. The GM is responsible for maintaining a certain amount of control on the availability of such things and ultimately decides on how much freedom players should have regarding the uses of the spell.
It was my understanding that WBL is designed to mitigate potential abuse, especially with Wish considering the 25k cost per casting and at two castings per feat. That, plus GM vigilance should be a solid safeguard.
Also, I want to thank you for pointing out that this should be in the Advice Forum. Can I move this thread or does that require one of the moderators(don't know the correct term)?
It would seem reasonable to allow it, but only once. Too much power for the body to sustain or somesuch.
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It would seem reasonable to allow it, but only once. Too much power for the body to sustain or somesuch.
That's a fair approach, though at this point I may just take it on a case by case basis. What I wouldn't allow is a feat they wanted but had 3 or more prerequisites to it. Using 2 wishes for each of the prereqs and then the feat itself? No.
I may end up lowering it to one and done, but I can't say at this point.
I've not been in a game where the GM was so restrictive as to not allow a PC access to a material component if the gold were available. And quite honestly I'd probably be very upset if a GM told me I couldn't cast a spell I had the wealth to afford the materials for. Any GM doing that is being extremely heavy handed, the spell is a utility spell and has built in balances via being a gold sink. Pushing the use of the spell, which the character used resources to gain access to and that requires an even larger investment to use in its most beneficial capacity, to the point of 'only when the GM deems appropriate' is just wrong and poor gaming on the GMs part.
That limitation shouldn't be in play, which is why I mentioned that it isn't RAW to allow it. Once something is allowed, unless very obviously stated as an exception that all agree to, it should always be allowed. I mean why should one character get to have access to a bonus feat via Wish, what about the rest of the party? They cannot have access too? That leads to the perception of favoritism.
It would just be easier and more fair to establish a hard limit based off an existing game mechanic, as arbitrary as it might seem to some. Like in the DSP psionic rules, one of the 9th level powers allows you to grant a power known (think sorcerer getting access to a new spell above and beyond what they have from levels) but the number of powers is limited by their INT modifier. I'm not suggesting that for feats (as it benefits certain classes over others), but maybe for every 5 levels you could gain another feat via Wish. You have a hard limit, and every character who wants to take advantage of it can if they want to invest the resources to.
As for changing the forum, you can flag posts and choose wrong forum, eventually a mod will come over to check and see if the flag was appropriate, if so it gets moved.
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I've not been in a game where the GM was so restrictive as to not allow a PC access to a material component if the gold were available. And quite honestly I'd probably be very upset if a GM told me I couldn't cast a spell I had the wealth to afford the materials for. Any GM doing that is being extremely heavy handed, the spell is a utility spell and has built in balances via being a gold sink. Pushing the use of the spell, which the character used resources to gain access to and that requires an even larger investment to use in its most beneficial capacity, to the point of 'only when the GM deems appropriate' is just wrong and poor gaming on the GMs part.
That limitation shouldn't be in play, which is why I mentioned that it isn't RAW to allow it. Once something is allowed, unless very obviously stated as an exception that all agree to, it should always be allowed. I mean why should one character get to have access to a bonus feat via Wish, what about the rest of the party? They cannot have access too? That leads to the perception of favoritism.
It would just be easier and more fair to establish a hard limit based off an existing game mechanic, as arbitrary as it might seem to some. Like in the DSP psionic rules, one of the 9th level powers allows you to grant a power known (think sorcerer getting access to a new spell above and beyond what they have from levels) but the number of powers is limited by their INT modifier. I'm not suggesting that for feats (as it benefits certain classes over others), but maybe for every 5 levels you could gain another feat via Wish. You have a hard limit, and every character who wants to take advantage of it can if they want to invest the resources to.
As for changing the forum, you can flag posts and choose wrong forum, eventually a mod will come over to check and see if the flag was appropriate, if so it gets moved.
I never said that this idea would be limited to only a single player. If other players have the gold and the GM is reasonable regarding 25k Diamond availability, then the caster should help out his group.
I agree that there needs to be a cap to feat gains via Wish spells; in another post I mentioned what I wouldn't allow to happen which essentially limits it to 3 feats. I also mentioned that based on how it all plays out, I may end up making it a one and done.
At 50k per feat, definitely a gold sink ;) Oh, and thx for the info on getting this moved, appreciate it.
I didn't mean to suggest you intended it for one player, just how a GM limiting access to a 'fluffy' material component could turn out. The game assumes certain things and unfortunately sometimes we have GMs who are more strict that what those assumptions are which definitely 'fiddles' with certain aspects of the game.
Our game group is fairly open to things, the normal GM is very lenient and willing to work with the players to get things to where both the player and GM are happy. That being said, the closest we've come to something like this was talking about possibly using wish to allow a character to count as having a prereq feat to enter a PrC without actually taking the feat. It was one of those prereqs that had no functionality in the PrC and wouldn't be built on by any of the class abilities and the character concept was really feat starved trying to get it all to come together (rebuilding old characters from 3.5 where classes don't exist anymore). The GM and I talked about it, figured it was fair but ended up rebuilding the character (a friends with less 'know how' for the rules) with different classes so it was never implemented.
Two wishes to gain a feat seems more in line I suppose, it just feels 'off' allowing access to one of the games rather limited character resources to be bought in such a way that it isn't vulnerable/without risk.
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I didn't mean to suggest you intended it for one player, just how a GM limiting access to a 'fluffy' material component could turn out. The game assumes certain things and unfortunately sometimes we have GMs who are more strict that what those assumptions are which definitely 'fiddles' with certain aspects of the game.
Our game group is fairly open to things, the normal GM is very lenient and willing to work with the players to get things to where both the player and GM are happy. That being said, the closest we've come to something like this was talking about possibly using wish to allow a character to count as having a prereq feat to enter a PrC without actually taking the feat. It was one of those prereqs that had no functionality in the PrC and wouldn't be built on by any of the class abilities and the character concept was really feat starved trying to get it all to come together (rebuilding old characters from 3.5 where classes don't exist anymore). The GM and I talked about it, figured it was fair but ended up rebuilding the character (a friends with less 'know how' for the rules) with different classes so it was never implemented.
Two wishes to gain a feat seems more in line I suppose, it just feels 'off' allowing access to one of the games rather limited character resources to be bought in such a way that it isn't vulnerable/without risk.
For the most part, I think you and I are generally on the same page with this. I agree with the fact that after achieving those levels of ability, a GM shouldn't make access to said components next to impossible. At the same time, nobody should be walking around with a bag full of 25k Diamonds waiting in a line at the Wish Emporium.
We also both agree that there should definitely be a cap on this use of the spell. Even a once and done is a fair option so long as all party members can benefit.
Another potential way of handling it is to have 1 (or 2) wishes for a feat but if a you wish for a feat a second time, it removes the old feat. And if you want to allow your players to have access to more than one feat through wishing, then the feats could be gotten by consecutive wishes (2 or 4 for 2 feats, 3 or 6 for 3 feats etc).
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Another potential way of handling it is to have 1 (or 2) wishes for a feat but if a you wish for a feat a second time, it removes the old feat. And if you want to allow your players to have access to more than one feat through wishing, then the feats could be gotten by consecutive wishes (2 or 4 for 2 feats, 3 or 6 for 3 feats etc).
That's the idea actually, by using 2 Wishes per feat and keeping the cap small. It can be a once and done or no more than x, however a GM wants to handle it. Lol, or they could simply not allow it at all.
Certain magic items can grant bonus Feats, but only so long as the item itself is worn/carried/used etc. So here is another idea: Make it so that Wish grants the Feat as a Permanent Spell Effect (bearing in mind that Permanent effects can be dispelled!) 25K is not exactly peanuts even for a high level PC. So any DM's who are asked for Wish-Feats I'd say let the players have it with this rule, and remember to grin evilly as you do so!
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Certain magic items can grant bonus Feats, but only so long as the item itself is worn/carried/used etc. So here is another idea: Make it so that Wish grants the Feat as a Permanent Spell Effect (bearing in mind that Permanent effects can be dispelled!) 25K is not exactly peanuts even for a high level PC. So any DM's who are asked for Wish-Feats I'd say let the players have it with this rule, and remember to grin evilly as you do so!
That's a good alternative to consider. Have it worked into an item that the player carries/wears, which is then subject to affects that can "turn off" the feat.
That helps to even the playing field for GM's so they worry less about the added power it affords the player. Nice, ty.